Heating Help

here are the pics of the industrial art

of my 2nd install. 275 joints, threaded + soldered, and only 4 leaks. talk about a tough time getting the air out! the customer forgot to tell me about the 4 air vents in that 'little access panel area in the attic', and the other two, black crude clogged, cast iron radiators behind the stage. and our project manager, who has only a scant knowledge of the definition of those two words or much else, didn't care for how much time it took but all-n-all, it's up and running after 4 flush and bleed sessions of the 7 radiators and 28 free standing convectors

Nice Piping UGLY wiring. What did you use to control the boiler staging?

That is an old building

I can't help notice that the original electrical wiring was "knob and tube", nealy as old as stem heat!

FYI

Did u ever hear of B&G Check Trol Flanges?! Cause those checks wont work that way.

yikes!

your response will be attended to in the order and tone in which it was received gerry: nice piping? i like to think so, considering the lack of space i was given; thanks. UGLY wiring? yeah ironical, that was the only part that i allowed the project mgr to do, and i neatened it up after the pic was taken. i don't remember the brand of the boiler staging unit, but if you can enlarge img-0176, you can see it next to the honeywell ted: old bldg? you bet; no joke, civil war era. and while lunching in the cemetery, and seeing a workmate's familial name on some headstones, it gave me reason to reflect on his ancestors lack of comfort mike: if i read the taco spec sheet correctly, that orientation is acceptable tim: square/plumb/level is a photographical illusion, except for the smidge out in the pvc on the right. as for the oversized? pumps; each zone has approx 300 total ft of pipe and many 90s jim: the pump motors aren't really supported like that, as there is only a negligible amount of weight on the strut, and the piping is actually adequate enough to support the pumps on it's own. bronze circ's motor orientation; see mike's above al: pro-press? yeppers, we have a 120v with cu capability to 4", and a press-fit for ss to 2.5", and i agree that it'd been much neater than my shakey, 57yr old hands can solder. but, we priced another chuch job with the pro-press, and as you know regarding the cost of fittings/esp in bronze at those sizes, we're suspecting that we lost the bid due to that pricing. flanged ball valves; costly? series 100 pumps so 80's? well heck, i'm not a walking fashion statement, but those installed check valves sure sound good. spiros?; the proj mgr whined every time i told him about the cost of something he overlooked; even the RPZs, until i told him about the potential for costly law suits regarding the poisoned day schoolers. increased pipe size on the ULTRAs? that became a point of contention when i whined about stepping up to ANY larger piping, esp a 3" header, but i caved in to the opposition. and as it turned out, a day late and a gazillian 3" cu bucks later, a w-m tech that i spoke with on the phone said that they had corrected that myth? by changing the pump that was previously assigned to the ultra. scott: thanks, but actually, i had to take one of the pumps down and it wasn't really hard. but if i had my druthers, i'd druther have had more space at chest level to keep things a bit easier lund: i have no idea what you're talking about, but if i interpret your comment as having something to do with immigrant looking piping.........be careful, because your talking to a 2nd gen immigrant's son, and your command of caps, a-usage of an indefinite article, and your broken writing makes it 'sound' like my grandmother's spoken word. bless her heart ron: as above, i'm with you rob: yes, but y wont they wrk? gimme some sci

Motor position

Check the specs again. As far as the strut under the motors,why use it if it isn`t needed?

TACO 007 Circ.

TACO “00” Cartridge Circulators INSTALLATION: 1. Mounting position – Circulator must be mounted with the motor in a horizontal position. It may be mounted vertically with the motor up, provided that the system pressure is at least 20 psi (138 kPa). http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-054.pdf

ah, excellent

i have approx 20psi, but i have the motor down thanks for the clarification

pump motors

Are not supposed to be supported like that,you`ll throw the coupling out of alignment. The piping system should be adequate enough to support the whole assembly. Also,the small bronze circulator`s motor is oriented incorrectly.

oh heck scott,

i don't mind the teaching/learning critiques, but if they sound like a bust, then the buster will reap what they sow but, on to better things; learning and teaching the circs were put up there for a couple reasons, and i 'bent' the header/put them up there because of a lack of space. to the right of my sculpture, you can see the lovely, plywood 'electrical/controls panel', some venting, and maybe some other piping. that's because there's another boiler to the right; an old steamer on a GRAVEL 'floor'. so, that eliminated any piping to the right. the tall grey pile to the left are roof slate. and in front of it all is the water heater and the remaining misc storage area for tables/chairs/crosses etc. the piping connections to the original system is in the dirt crawl space on top of the block wall, so i needed to keep some of that wall/space ladder-accessable swing checks are routinely used on hydronic systems, just not routinely on 'hot' hydronic systems. ;-) and believe me, they are 'weighted' checks; ie, they have approx 22#s of water resting them closed. hot water migration? naaaa are the P/S tee's as per manufacuters spec's? as far as i remember, they are, but i don't have the drawings at hand, so i can't verify it. but considering how confusing medusa's 'header' is, i wouldn't be too surprised if something looks goofy or wrent wong open for any and all constructive nudges

circulator

Nice piping I'm just glad I won't be the one trying to replace one of the bearing assemblies or couplings. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ok if over 20psi

doesn't cut it? if i'm remembering correctly, it is in the 20psi range why use it if it isn`t needed? bec sometimes, i found choosing my battles wisely made better 'political' sense in order to appease the doubting, ex proj mgr

If I understand you correctly

you mount the safety relief valve so that its discharge is pointed down. I pretty sure that isn't allowed by code. It should be mounted so that the stem is vertical. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Gordo

Hey, you're right. I didn't know that. I checked the manual and page 11 shows the ell looking up w/ the discharge of the relief horizontal. Don't know why that needs to be that way, but I guess I'll be changing my method. Thanks.

Tony

It has to do with dirt and debris settlingint he relief and causiong premature failure. Most insurance companys will demand this on a commercial job and it gets spilled over to residential jobs. Its good practice. Scott To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Now we're hijacking this thread....

I'm not sure if the code specifically mentions boilers or not, but hot water tanks have them facing down, but the last few boilers I've done have all come from the factory with the outlet on the horizontal.

hi jack

HWTs aren't considered boilers until they hit X size, but we just had an inspector make us change the position of a prv on a boiler so that it's discharge faced down

Mike, The way the swing checks are installed in this instance are wrong, because they may never be vertical, there is too great of a chance of them getting hung open. Why are 2 boilers only being fed with 3/4" black? Also, what is the purpose of the bronze circulator? Why not just use a cast circ? And, I'll agree with the others, where the B and G circs properly sized for the ft of head loss on this job? All too often circs are over sized. Nice, clean looking soldering, I'll give you that! How do you like the Ultra's? I've yet to put on in. What part of the country do you work in?

Mike

you stated you'd rather have the circulators at chest level. Why not then ? I tell me installers to place things where they want to find them at 10:00 pm Sat night, when they get the no heat call. I know I would'nt want to get out the ladder to change one of those. Its a nice idea to leave the oil bottles next to the circ's but having them up in the air like that means maintenance won't be happeing very often. Make it easy to do and it will happen more often. I also question your use of swings checks instead of flow-checks. I don't think they are designed to be used on a hydronic system. I don't think they have the weight to hold down that flow. Mike are the P/S tee's as per manufacuters spec's ? Most drawings show the tee's individually into the secondary loop, not combined as you have them. That could cause flow problems when both boilers are calling. I don't think anyone means to question your work but when you post pictures and ask for comments everyones going to look very closly :). Ask me how I know :) Its how I learned a great deal .. right here. Scott To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Punc and caps

Not trying to nit pick here Mike, but didn't you just pick on Lund for his lack of capitalization and punctuation?

nit picking may appear to be what i did,

when my words are taken out of the context of the complete post, but even without caps, i'm making sense with my words and punctuation. and i'm sure you'll understand that when there are no more words to read, you'll stop reading, even when i omit the period

not ok

motors are not supposed to be hanging down no matter what the pressure.

sounds like good advice

the next time i'm there, i'll see if i can do anything about it thanks

not just on this job

but does anyone else put a union before you 90 down on the relief valve? I figure it'd be easier for the next guy (me if I do a good job the first time) to change one out with just a set of wrenches rather than a torch too. I'm not knockin' your job, just wandering.

not a bad idea

and recently, i did similar, but depending on the circumstances of the location, it doesn't save much because a hand torch isn't much additional carry

Relief position

I install the st 90 they provide so the relief outlet is looking down and don't need a union :)

D'oh

I feel like a real "genius". I'll be 90'ing them down from now on.

Pumps

And aren't series 100 pumps so 80's. What about Grundfos pumps with check valves installed. Or flanged ball valves with check valves. Major Time Saviors.

Spiro vent

Spiro vents are in too. I thought your suppose to increase the pipe size on an Ultra as soon as possiable. Looks like you hesitated.

Pro-Press

Ever tried a pro press machine. Your solder joints look good but the pro press looks great. What about Flanged ball valves. Also Look great!!!!!!

decent try

you will want to consider doing more square, plumb and level work on next pipe up. Also I question w/ that pipe sizing that the B&Gs are well oversized for the zones in the structure. This may be a problem down the road with too much velocity in the copper and wash out of pipe from same causing pin hole leaks. Still admirable for few you have done, your solder work is not too bad. Tim

The bronze TACO 007 overhead needs to be repositioned, the motor needs to be pointing horizontally or rotate it 180 degrees from its current position. The motor being on the top not the bottom! Mike

Don't do it

Wet rotor circulators are best installed vertically. If they must be installed on the horizontal, the motor "HAS" to come off the side. Hanging below as you have collects dirt, motor above collects air, far worse. Check any manufacturers install spec.

Mike, Work with American Plumber for a year before next install. LUND

American Plumber?

Lund, I probably agree but what is American Plumber? Google brings up water filter equipment.