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    Magnets on feedwater lines (42 Posts)

  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 5:10 PM
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    oops?

    Give some credit where credit is due... this is currently where our human race is exploring... this is from an artical from January issue of the CERN experiment. this particular incursion on scientific boundaries is at the price of 20,000 man years of work. Yay! Science. *~/:)
  • mike mike @ 5:29 PM
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    If you FEEL that taking echinacea

    is protecting you from catching colds, that's not worth anything. you'd better check into the medical community's take on that, because it's well know by them that heal, that, getting a patient home is some of the strongest medicine out there, because the patient feels more comfortable in a familiar environment, and heals faster at home or, take the buddhist monk studies regarding their ability to control their bodies to a level that was formerly thought to not be humanly possible; ie, they can sleep outside in freezing weather with nothing more than a sheet, and show no ill effects. and i think it was a harvard study that demonstrated that the monks could raise the temps of their toes and fingers by as much as 17 degrees in tum-mo meditation. and it still isn't scientifically understood as to how they do it
  • Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver @ 5:38 PM
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    Hey Mike, maybe the monks

    are using MAGNETS ;-) There's a LOT that man doesn't know about the world he lives in. Kevin
  • mike mike @ 5:32 AM
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    yes kevin,

    that was my point
  • Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver @ 5:35 PM
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    interesting article Weezbo

    but even those guys have their unproven presuppositions: QUOTE-One of the great goals of fundamental physics is to explain why there is a predominance of matter in our Universe, given that matter and antimatter were produced in equal quantities at the time of the Big Bang." ENDQUOTE In light of the law of the conservation of angular momentum, the fact that several moons and planets in our solar system are spinning in the opposite direction of all the others is an embarrassing puzzler for big bang proponents. One might also wonder where the matter or energy came from to even have a Big Bang? Of course, the big bang theory is neither observable, repeatable, or testable, which takes it out of the realm of science and puts it squarely into the realm of religion. Kevin
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 5:40 PM
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    Kevin, did you check out the Magnets on that lash up?

    :)) oops :) the cooling system is worth spending the time to study. the Higgs is an interesting study in and of itself.
  • mike mike @ 6:25 PM
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    da-aan?

    he's trying to touch me, he's trying to touch me
  • jp jp @ 7:34 PM
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    field line in a pipe?

    seems to me the field lines are going to be on the outside of the pipe, can't see how magnetic fields would interact with the water?
  • mike mike @ 7:44 PM
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    look here

    http://www.superiorwaterconditioners.com/
  • ALH ALH @ 1:52 PM
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    USACE

    I make no claim to know it all, but the US Army Corps of Engineers determined that magnetic water conditioners were of no value. I tend to trust the American Water Works Association on matters of water treatment. I will have to track down the AWWA papers referenced in this study by the USACE. It's interesting that the AWWA papers are from the 50's.
  • ttekushan ttekushan @ 2:47 PM
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    regional effect and silence

    Now you see why I usually don't bring this subject up, my own results notwithstanding. I must have studied every report available on the subject, with careful attention to those which conclude that no difference is to be observed. Yet I have objective results in my own home and in the steam systems I regularly maintain. In looking over the studies on the subject, one thing stands out: the balance and quantity of minerals in the water supply seems to matter. It makes sense that regional differences in water content may render the magnets useless in some areas and helpful in others. I've also read the studies where magnetic water treatment alone did nothing to stop corrosion of boiler systems, which makes perfect sense to me. And that reveals a problem, I think. Claims made are often so unrealistic that they beg to be targeted for evaluation. How corrosion from oxygen content and chloride precipitation above the water line can be stopped from reaction due to a lack of hard scale buildup below the waterline is beyond me. My own observations have indicated no reduction in corrosion but only (!) a reduction in hard scale buildup. This is why I still maintain some level of traditional water treatments as before but with reduced quantities. I will continue to use the magnetic boiler water treatment as my direct experience has objectively shown it to be effective, and keep up on the studies (as usual). I still use magnetic systems of very low cost and don't hawk them. Its just part of my regular boiler service package, pretty much uncharged and rarely mentioned. However, I will now return to my policy (noted in another post on this thread) of NEVER DISCUSSING IT. Apparently this is how knowledge is best served. -Terry
    terry
  • tk tk @ 6:32 AM
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    As a youngster I wanted to believe in X-Ray glasses also!
  • Dan Holohan Dan Holohan @ 1:13 PM
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    Lads,

    enough of this line. Thanks for your cooperation.
    Site Administrator
    dan@heatinghelp.com













    Hug your kids.
  • Al Corelli Al Corelli @ 5:23 PM
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    Appears

    Looks like the inside of the next SpiroVent. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    Al Corelli, NY

    914-804-2234
  • Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver @ 12:15 AM
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    I'm with you ME

    "Science" is not infallible. They're the guys who said the earth was flat. They said man can't fly, they bled George Washington to death, and tell us that everything we see evolved from a rock 400 billion years ago. Magnets are amazing. We can't explain how they work, and probably have no idea their potential uses. Kevin
  • Bruce Langele Bruce Langele @ 4:44 PM
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    Magnets on make up water pipes

    WE have a steam generator uning High temperature hot water (390 degrees ) to produce 40 psi. of steam We found what looks like magnets on the steam side water make up line and we don't know what there used for . ANY HELP
  • Plumb Bob Plumb Bob @ 5:06 PM
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    There is a long-running ploy to sell cheap magnets at high prices by claiming that they will reduce scale deposits in pipes. Someone fell for the scam. The thing is, if you believe in it you will feel it is working. And once you pay, you tend to believe in it.
  • ALH ALH @ 5:19 PM
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    Agree completely

    The magnets are worthless.
  • Empire Empire @ 5:32 PM
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    At first I agree But:....?

    I am still researching the claims that are set fourth about these magnets. So far nothing that gives me the, "I believe in it" feeling. I can see the potential for water systems, but the claims of better and less Nat. gas consumption I have a hard time believing..... Their claim for gas is more complete combustion??? WHAT?... That's what I said. It is what it is. Mike T.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:49 PM
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    DIsagree completely...

    I have used them in numerous situations where I DIDN'T think they'd work, and they did... I have been using them for over 30 years. Before I am banned to the closet, I only recommend their use in non critical situations, like DHW production or ice making. I would never recommend their use in critical situations, like steam boilers. There are not a whole lot of chemicals that can be safely induced in potable water to avoid lime scale accumulation on heated surfaces. I would ask that those people who poo poo their use tell me case histories of where they did NOT work? Or is it hear say annecdotal. There is a rather large producer of these conditioners in the US called the Superior Water Conditioner Company. They have been in this business for longer than I've been in business. Do you really think they could manufacturer a bogus product and stay in business as long as they have? (42 years) Their client list includes the US Navy, US Army and Air Force. Do you think they "believe"? http://www.superiorwaterconditioners.com/ Just curious about the condemnation. ME ME
  • Bruce M Bruce M @ 6:51 AM
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    Patent and More

    The Superior Water Conditioner prodcts have received a patent. The patent requires a working model to demonstrate that the product works. It is always best to say "I don't know" than to make a statement about a product without having knowledge. Some of the most far out ideas are now in common use. Think about the computer and the internet for a minute. The first computers used thousands of tubes and required large rooms because of their size. These first computers were used in England in 1941 and were absolutely vital for victory in World War II. Most people did not know about these computers and even those that did, could not have imagined the home compuers of today. I am reminded of this famous quote; "All ye of little faith".
  • mike mike @ 5:36 PM
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    they can also be used for

    more alpha wave production when applied to the temples, or to the upper, outer ear for tobacco smoking cessation
  • SpeyFitter SpeyFitter @ 6:10 PM
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    just don't swallow them

    You can swallow one magnet and probably be fine. Just don't swallow two. The magnets could pinch something inside you.
    Class 'A' Gas Fitter - Certified Hydronic Systems Designer - Journeyman Plumber
  • Plumb Bob Plumb Bob @ 2:12 PM
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    Here's the deal. In science, you assume that something is false until there is evidence. This is not some obnoxious imposition; you can't function any other way, you'd be driven crazy if all theories had to be considered true unless proven false. Then there are standards for evidence. If you FEEL that taking echinacea is protecting you from catching colds, that's not worth anything. Evidence must be independent of opinions and feelings, because humans are remarkably impressionable. Any evidence for a benefit from magnets must be in the form of: take several identical systems, put magnets in half of them, measure the differences, make sure they are well outside any possible systematic or random error bars. Well, there's absolutely no hard evidence that magnets do anything for scale in pipes.
  • Chas Chas @ 3:52 PM
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    Check out the government documentation http://www.itmation-online.com/Federal_Technology_Report.pdf If you read this report you see that the bottom line is proper installation.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 6:43 PM
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    I'm sorry, but...

    I can't put any credit into a post by someone who signs it J. Cricket.... And, I HAVE descaled a LOT of equipment with the magnets... Science be damned. ME
  • ttekushan ttekushan @ 9:59 PM
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    I use them too.

    At first I thought this was the craziest thing I ever heard. I conducted a few long term experiments with magnets bought from a magnet manufacturer so I wouldn't spend too much money "when" it didn't work. After studying the patents on the subject I devised something relatively simple based on the literature. The magnets did exactly what others said they would (with regard to boiler scale, anyway). Note the condition of the electric boiler heating element in "mag water trtmt results." [These are not my photos] My steam humidifier element perfectly reflects the results shown. Previously it was a maintenance nightmare and required frequent chemical descaling. One powerful and strategically placed magnet has stopped the buildup. Just a thin constant fine layer of white scale covers the heating element. The steam humidifier is well into its second season of use as modified, and no descaling of any kind has since been required. The minerals are all loose at the bottom of the "boiler" chamber tray. The evaporation rate now stays at its "as new" volume. I use them on steam boiler feed water and boiler feed pump lines. I don't assume in any way that the magnetic treatment stops oxygen corrosion or other nasties. It simply prevents boiler scale accumulation on waterside heating surfaces. As such I still use boiler water treatments but the quantity of chemicals required is dramatically reduced. I've cut treatment chemical use in half, as indicated by the amount of rusty discharge from the boiler blowdown valves. Magnets + 1/2 less chemicals can still get the water where rust in blowdown water is nil. In "Improvement in Preventiing Incrustation" I seriously doubt that Mr. Parry was falsifying his results in that day and age. He admits that his explanation of the the phenomenon may be off target, but that the treatment works. He originally found it by serendipity and had to explain it. And one more study follows. This is the one you will find most interesting, Mark. It gets into the calcite versus aragonite formation analysis. I've never pushed the idea on clients (since I don't need any more things to shake my credibility[!]). You can't prove your worth if they slam the door in your face. I use the magnets to assist in chemical descaling. For my good long term clients I install the magnetic treatment permanently and work it into the bill. I prefer not to discuss it with them. Not initially anyway. Only after a season or two has elapsed will I openly discuss the method -after its made some kind of impression. -Terry
    terry
  • Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver @ 10:09 PM
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    Nothing wrong with REAL science ME

    but the most published book of all time makes many accurate scientific statements and also warns us to avoid, "...profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science FALSELY SO CALLED." This book has never changed, but the science books change all the time. Maybe tomorrow "science" will decide magnets work, then everyone will have permission to believe what you've already seen. If you weren't so busy, you could nail your 95 theses to the laboratory door. Kevin Kevin
  • Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver @ 3:56 PM
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    That's the way

    it's SUPPOSED to work J. Unfortunately many so called "scientists" aren't very consistent in applying that method. It seems some of them have their own agendas, bias, and presuppositions. They are actually very religious people, and believe a lot of unprovable stuff by faith. Kevin
  • jackchips jackchips @ 12:00 PM
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    Magnets

    were, and maybe still are, used in Cows for a long time and they worked. This type of science was not taught when I was learning plumbing and heating so I depend on experts like ME. :-)) Jack
  • mike mike @ 6:21 PM
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    cows?

    they still are used to collect metal foreign bodies in cows' stomachs, but not for neutralizing minerals
  • Andrew Hagen Andrew Hagen @ 7:20 PM
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    How? When?

    All I am saying is I need to know if they work, how they work, and when they work before I could in good conscience charge someone for magnets or recommend they buy them.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:46 AM
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    How, when where and why...

    Andrew, I have researched this phenemenon until my brain hurts. I've read American studies, some of them dating back to the 1800's, Russian reports, with same date codes, an Israeli report from the Haifa Institute, a HIGHLY respected organization, and they all pretty much come to the same conclusion, that being there is no solid scientific data to support the changes seen, but there ARE in fact changes seen. Call if PFM, hockus pocus or whatever,but the bottom line result is that they DO infact work. SO, until we come up with a better science, the HOW will remain a mystery. On to the WHEN. If you have a potential for lime scale deposition onto a heat surface, a cooled surface or an evaporated surface (cooling towers) then you have a good application of these devices. If in doubt, send a water sample to Superior and they will tell you if it is treatable or not. So, if you have hard water in your area, and you don't want to scale up DHW transfer surfaces, then I reccomend its use. If you have a silica based formation (glass water, Texas, Oklahoma) then don't bother, because it will not affect that particular deposition, and the manufacturer is aware of it. And they do not recommend it use under those conditions. But as I said, its as simple as having them test the water. WHERE: Well, on the water line of course:-) Actually, these things are not cheap. THe bigger the flow rate, the higher the price of admission. And that is usually where the trouble starts. With any water conditioning system, there is a need for "contact time". With these devices being so expensive, the installer has tendencies to undersize the units, thereby affecting its ability to treat. There is a very simple fix. Size the conditioner for the circulation return lines capacity. This way, the fluid (water) is SUPER treated and even more effective at doing its job. Even if you don't have a circ return in the system it is quite simple to set one up locally at the tank or heat source. I have done this many times over, and have actually displaced a sodium exchange water softener that was eating copper in a major hotel back east, and the magnets did not allow lime scale accumulation to occur. I could go on and on adnausium about the different applications where I have put it and they worked, but you're going to have to trust me on this. They work. They key with this product, as it is with ANY product, is PROPER SIZING and installation. The WHY is fairly obvious. It keeps the heat transfer equipment operating at a like new capacity for its life expectancy. I'm not sure what the water is like in your part of the Big Sky state, but if you do have a problem with lime scale based depositions, then you owe it to yourself and your customers to try it like Terry did. IT takes time for it to do its thing (removal of exisitng deposits), so don't be in a big hurry, but it DOES work. BTW, Superior is not the only manufacturer of these devices, and there are some significantly less expensive units out on the market. Do some research before you dive in. And thanks for keeping an open mind and asking the questions. ME
  • mike mike @ 6:19 PM
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    NEVER DISCUSSING IT?

    you made some excellent points, and adding to the addage of; not bringing up religion or politics, we can now add magnets i'm going to give them a try when the right opportunity comes up
  • Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver @ 10:42 AM
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    This happened before Mike

    In exactly the same way as this thread. It's probably archived here somewhere. One guy asks about magnets, and a doggy-pile ensues in the name of science. Next, I chime in that some popular theories are nothing but religion masquerading as science, and that science can't explain some very interesting phenomena, (which you attested to thank you) and science has been wrong before. Then I mention that interestingly the Bible has always been scientifically accurate, (which more than a few wallies claim to believe by the way) and a flag is thrown for religion in the thread. But it's not at all off topic in the context of a "scientific debate" and anyone who considers themselves intellectual and open minded should check out the link I cited. You might say life is an open Book test. Kevin
  • Andrew Hagen Andrew Hagen @ 10:56 AM
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    The question stands

    That's all fine, but when are magnets appropriate? Unless the USACE is way off base, it's obvious that they are not always appropriate, so when should someone make the investment? I am not looking to solve the mysteries of the universe while designing a heating system.
  • mike mike @ 11:00 AM
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    yes, i'm very aware of

    blogging and dog-piliing, and i didn't add the comment to resurrect the discussion. i'm holding to dan's rules. and while i'm weary from being on both sides of the tracks in this debate, starting somewhere around '69-'70, while currently staying on top of the subject, and since you seem determined to go a few rounds, here's my eddress; mvickers@frontiernet.net. and even though you've already telegraphed the holes in your argument, take your best 'scientific' shot and i'll try to respect it
  • mike mike @ 10:33 PM
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    the most published book of all time

    makes many absurd, un-scientific, echinaceous, faith-felt claims that have absolutely nothing more than good, solid, ages-old wisdom
  • Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver @ 2:01 AM
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    We'll take this outside Mike

    Dan doesn't allow religious debate here, so I'll respectfully challenge you to privately email me even one unscientific claim. Any interested parties can request copies of our dialogue. Respectfully, Kevin
  • mike mike @ 5:27 AM
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    religious debate

    or comment shouldn't be allowed here, but it's not my site so i have nothing to do with the rules and as far as taking it outside, i have no interest in carrying the conversation past our two comments
  • Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver @ 11:15 AM
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    Seek enlightenment mike

    by googling: "Bible believing scientists of the past" Dr.Morris article at ICR makes me wonder how so many ignorant men accomplished so much? Perhaps if they had spent their time and talents meditating their toes warm, you and I wouldn't be on a web site promoting radiant heating. It's ironic isn't it! Kevin
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 5:27 PM
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    really :) we are needed Al.

    the Cooling system is a beautiful thing maybe someone envisioned a spirovent :)
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