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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts (141 Posts)

  • Greg Greg @ 12:03 AM
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    Pictures

    Mike, Thanks for the reply. You're explanation gives me a better idea of how the primary through the tees is supposed to work, however....isn't it possible that under a certain condition you could "interfere" with that flow from boiler suuply to return with excessive flow / head through the heating zones? If that condition could exist...then I may be looking at that as well since it seems like too much of the residual hot water in the boiler (upon a call for heat)gets sent up the heating zone right away. In otherwords, in my case, the boiler return gets almost as cold as the return water from the heating loop initially, which would indicate the the boiler is returning almost none of it's supply water to itself. Attached are some pictures....You will have to follow the pipes closely to see that they are correct, as they loop around. It was originally piped slightly different with the side port of the tee as the physical connection between supply / return. Weil Mclain Tech Support suggested that I pipe the tees exacly as in the diagram (he was 99% sure it would solve my problem....good thing he left himself 1%) so I repiped it with the same resulting nuisance lockout. Greg
  • Amy L Amy L @ 8:21 AM
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    W-M 3-230 lockouts

    I recently installed a series 3 #230, with DHW 60G. Have intermittent error and lockout 'water too fast'. Have a 14gpm pump on the boiler, and (3) taco 007 (7gpm) pump on the zones. Not counting for reductions due to turbulence, etc...the zones tally 21gpm and the boiler only 14gpm. Can this be part of the error and lockout if all 3 zone pumps are in operation ?
  • Tony Tony @ 6:35 PM
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    LO

    It has to happen 5 times in a single call for heat. Have your installer come back and reprogram it. If he calls his rep he should get the answer. The internet is not the place for programming particulars to be published.
  • Supply House Rick Supply House Rick @ 3:41 PM
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    Pressure relief valve...

    1.) I do not see the pressure relief valve that W-M say should be in the supply line as soon as it exits the boiler. Omitting a thing like this (unless it is hidden in your picture) will not cause any problem until the U-control board fails and leaves the heat on. Then the whole thing can explode. 2.) I assume the green Taco circulators (I hope those are IFC model because there does not appear to be any flow controls) at the right go to four zones, and the black one at the bottom is the one for the boiler loop. Is the one next to the Taco control box for another zone, or DHW? 3.) It really does not look to be set up for primary/secondary, because there appear to be no closely spaced tees.
  • Athomco Athomco @ 10:16 AM
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    AmyL - Program/Piping

    The Ultra Series boilers piping is critical in the performance and lockout problems.  The primary loop or close boiler piping lets the boiler breath and creates a bypass for water to be circulated through the boiler at all time of operation. If you do not read the installtion manual and follow the piping diagrams you will fail.  As far as the GPM on the pumps, the primary boiler pump whic is included with the boiler is engineered to operate the boiler correctly.  Anything outside the primary loop is secondary.  if your using zone valves on your system system that's a different problem but circulators on the secondary loop work on thier own. If your experiencing lockouts most of the time its a flow issue.  The new Strap on sensors send the info back to the module instantly and can cause some lockouts.  If you have not updated your module you should do so. The programming of the module is key by increasing post purge running of the system can help over come some piping issues. Have your contractor call Weil-McLain to check the software on the module.
  • Jett Jett @ 12:33 AM
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    U 155 Outdoor temp is off

    Hi - I have an Ultra 155 installed last year with an outdoor temp sensor. The control unit show a temp of 80 degrees + eventhough it is under 48 degrees outside (it's like the oudoor sensor is busted or not calibrated) This is resulting in low 120 degree water temps from the boiler when instead the boiler should be cranking out 150+ degree temps. MY QUESTION - Is there a way to recalibrate my outdoor Sensor so the boiler picks up the correct outdoor temp? Or is my sensor just busted? Thanks - Jett
  • kcopp kcopp @ 8:27 AM
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    Is that....

    120F heating your house? That may be all it needs. What do you have for emitters? Baseboard, radiators,radiant floor? You can go into the menu and tweak the settings. The sensor is just a sensor...it does not control the temps, just tells the board what the temp. outside is.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 9:59 AM
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    Is there a way to recalibrate my outdoor Sensor so the boiler picks up the correct outdoor temp?

    I have an Ultra 3 80,000 BTU/hr model from 2009. I use outdoor reset and it works fine. The outdoor sensor does not agree exactly with the outdoor temperature: it reads about 3 degrees high. The front panel has a way you can add an offset to calibrate this. The setup instructions in the Installation manual give instructions on how to do this. Now the actual error, compared with a laboratory mercury thermometer that can be read to 1/4F varies with temperature, so you can make it correct at only one temperature. But that should be good enough.

    If your sensor reads 80F when it is 48F, though, I would assume your sensor is broken, or that your wiring is defective. If you use thermostat wire to connect the sensor to the boiler, it should be 18 gauge wire or heavier, especially if it is very long.

    Another possibility is that the sensor was connected after the boiler was powered on. The Ucontrol checks if the sensor is connected only at power up, so if it was not there at power up, it assumes a default outdoor temperature and disables WWSD.
  • Billy_Mastroni Billy_Mastroni @ 9:58 PM
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    Ultra series 3 lock out return>supply

    i have the series 3 with U control. it keeps locking out on return>supply... i have done everything i could possibly do to fix this problem. i have contacted the factory and i only got half ass help cause of the holiday!!!1 i don't know what to do and i'm freezing  so could someone tell me what to do i NEED HELP!!!! call me my number is 2156512529
    please help!!!
  • Bill Bill @ 11:06 AM
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    outdoor temp. sensor

    When I attach the outdoor temp. sensor to my WM. Ultra 105- will it recognize it and will I need to adjust any of the settings? It currently is all factory default for cast iron radiators. This site is great.
  • Tony Tony @ 8:04 PM
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    Yes, and Yes

    It's in the book.
  • alang alang @ 4:51 PM
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    weil mclain was the worste investment i ever made

    freaking no good pile of junk. edit - installed 90+ days ago. 6 visits to my place and the installer FINALLY solved the "SUPPLY TOO FAST" errro that was shutting me down.. only to solve the issue he had to prioritize all the zones. Hiotwater is first, i can handle that. .. but I have a hydro-air and tewo basement zones to serve... and when the hydro air is calling, my basmenent workshop is like the south freasking pole! It used to get up to 70 degrees in an hour. Now it won;t get near 70 degrees even when its above 40 degrees outside I didn;t pay this much money to turn my workshop into a 3 seasons room!!! the installer says my problem is that my type of house is not well suited to this type of boiler... I need higher temps and continuous supply to the baseboards... in which case I wish he had not told me it was the best soluition for my application...
  • Tony Tony @ 9:13 PM
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    Try this

    Oversize the header to get a better "mix". Or, use a low loss header like Caleffi's. Maybe a buffer tank on the return into the boiler. I've piped a few with the boiler being the primary loop and the emitters being the secondary loops. Gets a better mix-down into the boiler. If the return temps are coming back that hot, that quick, I'd say your zones are too small and probably over-pumped.
  • Rob Rob @ 9:18 AM
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    Got in touch with the Weil Mclain rep and he was able to drop off a new control board and screen. The new control board has a pre pump time of 20 seconds on it. I installed the board (took about 10 minutes) on Saturday morning and have not had a lockout since.
  • Tony Tony @ 7:58 PM
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    Your problem

    Isn't the boiler, it's the installer.
  • mike mike @ 8:35 PM
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    and again

    our install locked out over the weekend, but the owner has been shown the reset drill lockout history; supply > return solution to try to 'counter' the temp diff; move the sensor, closer than the spec distance, to the return t
  • Rob Rob @ 9:06 AM
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    Greg I just installed my 105 and having a problem with it locking out on "supply too fast. Mine is a soft lockout and after 60 seconds, it resets and works just fine. I changed my post pump time to 45 seconds and it seemed to help some but did not eliminate the problem. Most times it was when the heating zone was on and the boiler got a call for DHW but this morning the lockout history indicated that it locked out on the call for heat. This is really bothering me. Anyone any suggestions? Rob
  • Bill Bill @ 9:51 AM
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    pH

    I have found the pH of my boiler water to be above 8.5 at least that is the highest my water test kit goes. I have read that an aluminum boiler should not have water above 8. I have flushed the system with city water with a pH of 7 and it is back up again. My contractor does not seem to be concerned but never knew the pH could be a problem with aluminum boilers. Any thoughts?
  • Xc8p2dC Xc8p2dC @ 6:28 PM
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    service buliten

    If you are running strait water, you prob need a balancer like Rhomar If you happend to have used Cryotek AL, the is a TSB on it that says if to low, add conditioner, if too high chnage for new formula, Noted that other companies are having issues as well http://www.weil-mclain.com/professionals/services/Bulletins/SB0801.pdf
  • Important issues here

    I have 5 series 3 boilers installed and have chased issues with futile success for the past 3 months. You need to get in touch with a rep. Issue 1: they have an issue with the original U control in some boilers- depends on how early in production they were made Issue 2: doing this allows you to change the per pump and ost pump times to 60 seconds from 30 seconds Issue 3: chage the mod differential to 10 sec from 5 sec. issue 3: make sure your DHW circ is large enough and all piping is correct- the new control is far too touchy in my eyes Issue 3: I would hold off tying this in with tekmat TN4 or related products. Allowing them to take over the boiler firing has been a disaster- lockouts constantly and nobody knows how or why. THink this could have been addressed during the 2-3 years of careful design and testing in the factory? Don't get me wrong, I have sold the Ultra exclusively since they were introduced. The $ are racking up in service calls and the clients have ZERO confidence in the product. It's hard to justify 3-4 service calls and a replaced brain in the first 2 weeks of owning a very expensive system.
    JIm Patterson- OVHC
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 8:04 PM
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    Important Issues Here

    It has been two days since I have slowed down the system circulators and increased the pre-purge time to 60 seconds without a lockout event. My previous boiler was a Hydro Pulse dating back to 1982 which was state of the art and high efficient back then. I went through two boilers in 26 years. The down side was the noise which was like a two stroke outboard motor. I must say I LOVE the Ultra (if it keeps running like it is running). It is virtually silent. In addition the heat throughout the house is very consistant. This system works best when you set the thermostats for day and night and never touch them again. Plenty of hot water and a great recovery rate.
  • Bill Bill @ 8:30 AM
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    outdoor temp. sensor

    Has been working great since install. Saving lots of gas while it changes water temperature with the outdoor temp. Will the heater also change water temperature when return water gets close to supply temp.- in other words the house is not pulling off much heat from the radiators. Is this what modulation refers to. Thanks for putting up with these basic questions- I had a professional do the install I just like knowing how it works and appreciating the complexities. Hydronic engineering is fascinating - you guys are brilliant!
  • Greg Greg @ 11:49 AM
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    outdoor temp. sensor

    Bill, The scope of the question is a bit foggy...but i'll take a stab at answering it. "Modulation" refers to the fact that the boiler "modulates" the flame by a variable gas valve and varying the blower speed. This allows the boiler to adjust its flame (or BTU input) as it reaches a target supply temperature. This avoids cycling and since the temperature of the circulated water is so consistent, your zones will reach their comfort level faster. This is versus a conventional boiler which reaches the supply temperature (at a pre-determined max flame rate) then will shut down for a period until the supply reaches a differential of say...-15-20 degrees or so of its target...then fires back up at a max flame rate to heat the water again. The "Modulating" boiler therefore, can maintain a very consistant water temperature through it's heating zones by maintaining a very low flame rate to keep the circulated water hot. I believe the Weil Mclain Ultras will "Modulate" down to 20% of their BTU Input. The outdoor reset sensor, automatically lowers your boilers supply "Target" temperature for warmer weather so that you can better maintain your comfort level in your zones rather than having the boiler cycle at say 180 degree target on a 55 degree day. This most likely would overshoot the t-stat setting of the room on warmer days. If you read the manual, the supply "reset" curve for the outdoor reset sensor is adjustable in the menu to acommodate the heat loss and comfort level of your home. All these things combined is what makes these types of boilers very efficient. It is NOT just the "condensing" function of the boiler that makes it efficient, as some of the old timers believe. Greg
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 8:17 AM
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    Replaced Board -New Problem

    My contractor put a new board in yesterday. I am still getting a "Temp Rising Too Quickly" code. I believe the NEW problem is the System Return temp is exceeding the System Supply temp by too much. Here are the temps for the last four lockouts. I will list them as supply/return. 126/135, 116/124, 127/135, 124/136. All lockouts are occuring when FinTube Baseboard Zone is calling. We have three baseboard zones on circulators working hrough a TACO SR504 controller. Also have a DHW and radiant zone. witnessed the last one and it occcured on start up after being off for ten minutes.Using all Grundfos 3 speed circulators running at top speed. Thanks. You guys are great!
  • Greg Greg @ 12:41 PM
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    Replaced Board -New Problem

    Tony, First, you probably want to slow the zone pumps down, unless of course you have an extremely long run and/or high head loss in your zones. This will allow the water to travel more slowly through the zone and remove more heat. Second...(this will seem like a dumb question but you need to check)....did your contractor set a Pre-Purge time in the controllers menu? or did he just put the board in and leave it set to 0 Seconds? Greg
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 3:54 PM
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    Temp Rising Too Quicly

    Greg, I do not know what is considered a long run or if I have a high head loss. One zone is the bedroom zone. It has 3 average size bedrooms on the same level as the boiler with the farthest distance being approximately fifty feet from the boiler. The other consideration is the upstairs zone that is directly above the boiler and feeds approximatley 50 feet of baseboard. Third zone is one room behind the boiler room with 26 feet of baseboard. The Pre-Pump times are all set for 20 seconds and the post-purge times are all set for 30 seconds. Should I still slow the circulators down a notch? Should I increase either or both of the pump run times? Thanks!
  • Greg Greg @ 1:53 PM
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    Temp Rising Too Quicly

    Tony, Definitely slow your zone circs down to minimum speed. It sounds like you have very short piping runs and not much baseboard on each zone. Also increase that Pre-Purge incrementally, try 60 seconds, 90 seconds, 120 seconds (mine is set to 120)....see if that improves things. It sounds like you have same problem, the initial hot water out of the boiler to the zones needs to mix-down and blen to a consistent temperature before the boiler starts. Greg
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 9:05 AM
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    Ultra 3 lockout

    Ultra 3-105. Grundfos 3 speed circulators
  • Tony Tony @ 7:53 PM
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    Hmmm

    The 105 is shipped with a Taco 007. I believe Grundfos 15-58 3 speeders would equal that on medium. Shouldn't be a problem on high, but not as much efficiency due to decreased deltaT. I don't use Grundfos, so I don't have curve charts for them and am not sure 100%. You could try it on medium and watch your inlet/outlet temp differential while running full fire to make sure it doesn't get too large a spread, say over 20*.
  • Brent Brent @ 8:08 AM
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    Ultra Series 3 shut-downs

    I have read through some of the postings about the Ultra Series 3 and the issues presented. I have been having some of the same issues with my boiler. It has gone into shut down numerous times and the screen indicates "sensor error". I tried looking in the manual and it says something about verifying the set points of the sensors but that is way beyond my ability. I originally thought like the one guy that posted that it had to do with my DHW tank as it seemed to happen after my DHW tank was heated and then a call for heat happened. I disconnected the DHW signal to see if the system would shut down and it has but not as frequently. I have set up the system myself and would like to fix whatever it is myself only I am not sure where to turn without spending a lot of money for someone else to figure it out. I am attaching a picture of the set-up if anyone would like to take a stab at the issue, it would be greatly appreciated.
  • Rob Rob @ 10:45 AM
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    Brent Weil Mclain calls for the external supply and return sensors to be at least 6 pipe diameters from the boiler connection tees It looks like your external sensors are on the primary piping. It's hard to tell with the picture but I don't see the closely spaced tees. Is the dhw tank somewhere above the boiler?
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 9:10 AM
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    Any new news on the Ultra 3 lockout? My two day old 105 says "Temp rising too quicly". The Weil rep said a swap of the computer is required. Is this an easy fix?
  • Greg Greg @ 1:05 PM
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    Still running great!

    Mine is still working great!! Absolutely zero faults since I installed the new board back at the end of November. Very simple to change, 4 screws for the control board, 4 screws for the front panel and everthing connects to the controller with Phoenix type connector plugs (except the high voltage wire for the ignitor, it has a spade connector). I would say 15-20 minute fix max. Greg
  • Jim P Jim P @ 10:04 AM
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    Yes

    Changing out the computer takes about 10-15 min. I just had to do one on friday. Thanks, Jim
  • Tony Tony @ 7:05 PM
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    Two different things

    Setback refers to setback thermostats and/or setting back the setting of same. Reset "curve" is the line plotted on a temp chart showing where the water target temp is at a given outdoor temp. When coming out of setback, recovery takes longer when using outdoor reset than it does on a system not using it. This is because a proper setting supplies just the water temp that is needed to maintain indoor temp. It doesn't leave much room for making up a setback.
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 8:00 PM
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    Solved Lockout problem

    It has been two days since I have slowed down the system circulators and increased the pre-purge time to 60 seconds without a lockout event. My previous boiler was a Hydro Pulse dating back to 1982 which was state of the art and high efficient back then. I went through two boilers in 26 years. The down side was the noise which was like a two stroke outboard motor. I must say I LOVE the Ultra (if it keeps running like it is running). It is virtually silent. In addition the heat throughout the house is very consistant. This system works best when you set the thermostats for day and night and never touch them again. Plenty of hot water and a great recovery rate.
  • apples to apples??

    How basic is your hydronic system. One zone, multiple zones?? Issues I am seeing a more than basic applications requiring multiple temps, several circs ( rads, hydro-air...) injection mixing. TN4 is adding atwist that is unanswered thus far. I have made multiple alterations to the programming- still an unhappy boiler. I have been thru hell with series 1 and 2 and was expecting a better start to series 3. I also love the design. The concept is outstanding. The refinement process is getting far to expensive to tolerate as a contractor. How many callbacks should a homeowner with a new boiler accept without losing faith and assuming they own a lemon?
    JIm Patterson- OVHC
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 11:11 PM
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    apples to apples

    One zone Weil Mclain DHW, one zone radiant, three zones fin tube baseboard controlled by a Taco controller. Using all Grundfos three speeed circulators. I became a student of the system before the install and have made all the adjustments myself. I agree it would be frustrating if the installing contractor had to come back to make all the adjustments. However, I just had a basic oil fired hot water heater installed at my mother in laws house and the installer had to come back three times before it stopped locking out. One more thing, It took me five contractors to get two quotes on a condensing/modulating boiler. The other three wouldn't touch them. They wanted to sell me a direct vent sealed combustion conventional boiler. One offered a TEKMAR outdoor setback unit also.
  • should be corrected at the factory

    My issue, as a contractor, is that there should have been an exorcism at the factory, before dumping these boilers into the field. Why should we spend out time figuring out how to make their boiler control work? I believe they have an engineering dept for that
    JIm Patterson- OVHC
  • should be corrected at the factory

    My issue, as a contractor, is that there should have been an exorcism at the factory, before dumping these boilers into the field. Why should we spend out time figuring out how to make their boiler control work? I believe they have an engineering dept for that
    JIm Patterson- OVHC
  • chris chris @ 8:31 AM
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    i agree

    We had to make three service calls to a recent install on a "BRAND NEW" series 3 105k boiler. Boiler in lock out all three times. This ate up the customers confidence and all said a solid day of extra labor. Turned out the board was bad. I wish they would have told us in the beginning- we have a board problem you will need to change it! Extremely Frustrating for a couple thousand dollar item!!
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 9:54 AM
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    ANOTHER LOCKOUT-NEW STATUS

    Ok gang. I experienced a lockout during PREPURGE phase last night.This is the first time for this status. I had increased the pre-pump times to 90 seconds and had not touched the post pump times (30 seconds). I have now increased the post pump times to 90 seconds also. I will keep you all informed. I wish good luck to all you guys who do this for a living. I am certain 99% of your customers can't or won't touch this thing. This is why it took me five contractors to find one that would consider selling it. I do have a new computer board. It is the "tweeking" that will drive you guys to drink.
  • Tony Tony @ 5:04 PM
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    Foggy

    He's got a handle on modulation and ODR. You need a book. Modulation does not get rooms to temp faster, neither does ODR. In fact, with ODR, if you also use setback, recovery is much longer.
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 9:34 AM
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    setback and reset curve

    Tony, can you explain what is meant by setback and rest curve when talking about the Outdoor Sensor? Also, what is it that you are adjusting on the reset curve? Thanks,Tony
  • Tony Tony @ 5:00 PM
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    Flow rates

    Your zone circs are likely flowing much too fast. Over pumping is all too common. Set all your zone circ speeds on low and see if they keep up with demand. If one doesn't, change only that one to medium. Set the pre-pump times for at least 60 seconds. The post pump times can be 15 seconds, since your zoned and would only be circulating the boiler alone.
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 7:21 PM
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    Ultra 3 Lockouts

    Tony, What about the boiler circulator and the DHW circulator? Should I slow them both down to low also? Also, please explain what is meant when you say "doesn't keep up with demand". I know these questions are basic but I like to know everything I can about things. My expertise is industrial real estate development, finance and airplanes. Ask me anything, anytime if you so wish. And thanks for your help. Thanks Thanks
  • Tony Tony @ 8:17 PM
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    No

    The boiler circ and DHW circ need adequate flow through the boiler. What circs do you have on those and what model Ultra do you have ?
  • Greg Greg @ 12:17 PM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

    Rob, First, I was glad to hear that Weil McLain hand deliverd your control module to you. To answer the first question, I have had absolutely Zero faults since I installed the new controller. You did not mention what your fault indication is. It is good that you have traced it to adding the garage loop though. I am taking a wild guess that the fault you are getting is "Supply > return by 58 F" If that is the case, it makes sense that yes..the garage will remain quite a bit cooler than the house would (especially by the floor where the baseboards are) and when that cool water hit the boiler...you get that fault. Not sure what your current pre-puge setting is, but yes, it won't hurt to increase that setting for a longer time to allow the water to mix-down a little more before the boiler fires and starts monitoring temperatures. If that fails, then yes I'm sure a buffer tank in the return line from the garage would help. Or, if you worry about boiler failures, and the possibility of pipes in the garage bursting, you could probably go with heat exchanger near your boiler and make the loop to the garage a glycol loop. With a heat exchanger close to the boiler, the water loop would be very short and allow the water to "mix-down" a few times on your current pre-purge. I know that gets a little complex...for the heat exchanger scenario, you either need one more pump (one for pumping water through the exchangers water loop and another for pumping the glycol to the garage), or to run the boiler supply through the heat exchanger continously (and the glycol loop to garage cycles the glycol loop pump when the garage stat calls, therefore if the garage stat doesn't call, the glycol sits idle in the exchanger and you'll have very little heat loss). Plus, if you run it through the heat exchanger continously, the exchanger will have some head loss and you may need a boiler pump with more head capacity. Regards, Greg
  • Greg Greg @ 4:34 PM
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    Ultra Series 3 shut-downs

    Brent, First, If you are not familiar or uncomfortable with using an ohmmeter or playing in the menus, then you really need to find someone who is. There should be enough information in the manual for you to troubleshoot this kind of problem if you know the basics. The sensors are resistive type sensors (they change their resistance value with temperature change). There is a table in the manual (page 85) which shows you what the sensor resistance should be at various temperatures. This is measured with an ohm meter. The Flue and Heat Exchanger Outlet Temperature sensor both have dual sensor elements for safety. They are like 2 sensors in 1 physical package. The 2 sensor values (off each physical sensor) are compared in the boiler CPU and should always read within 10 degress of each other. If they exceed that, then the boiler will fault and give sensor errors. In fact, you can see a snapshot of all the temperature readings when the fault happened in the diagnostic history. The table on page 68 and 69 of the manual show you how to see the temperature history at the time of the fault. It will show you 2 temperatures for the flue, and 2 for the supply. It shows 2 temperatures for each because of the dual sensor elemnts just mentioned. Check them and see if there is a greater than 10 degrees reading (between the 2 values shown for each sensor) on either the flue or supply temperature. Air or crud in the system can cause false readings and faults caused by differences between the 2 readings obtained on the supply sensor. Is your system purged good and clean? The external sensors (eg:outdoor reset and the 2 that are strapped to the pipe) should not cause a fault like you are seeing, but you could disconnect them (temporarily as a process of elimination)and power cycle your boiler so the CPU re-detects that they are not there. Then you can see if it still gets sensor errors. You can run the boiler without the external sensors without any safety fears as they are somewhat "optional" for adding greater efficiency to the boiler. It is even possible that a sensor wire is loose at the plug on the sensor end or the CPU end, and the CPU thinks the sensor has been unplugged from the system intermittently. Just some stuff to check out. I've tried to explain how the sensors work and some things to check but if you are not familiar with troubleshooting these type of systems it will be difficult at best for someone to walk you through it over the internet. Good Luck. Greg
  • Rob Rob @ 10:52 AM
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    Greg Have you had any additional lockouts. I'm still getting some ever since I added a loop for my garage. Now when it's really cold and I get a call for heat from that zone it goes to a hard lockout. I guess that when the 40 to 50 degree garage zone water mixes with the boiler water the supply and return sensors get conflicting info. I'm going to try to max out the pre pump setting for that zone and hopefully that would help. Maybe I need a buffer tank. Any other suggestions would be appreciated Rob
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 9:57 AM
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    Ultra 230 supply too fast

    I am having the "water supply too fast" lockout once every 10 days or so. I was told by my equipment supplier to lower the tempt to 175 and adjust the outdoor gauge to be more accurate. this worked for a while maybe but I'm getting the same result. It's not a big deal to reset but if I'm away I don't want the pipes to burst from no heat. Is there anyone out there who can come by and fix this. I live in Bergen county NJ. Please reply to neil@wainlands.com thank you
  • Tony Tony @ 7:29 PM
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    where ?

    Where is your installer ? He should be the one to program it.
  • Greg Greg @ 9:58 AM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

    Tim, Yes, I have complied with the laws in my locale. There is a backflow preventer, as well as a flow check upstream of the BFP. Also there is an external overtemp lock-out as required by my city's code. No certification is necessary to install a heating system. I had all permits filed with my buildings department and gas upgrade done by a licensed contractor. My local utility has inspected it with no problem. Yes...it looks messy in the picture due to the fact that the install was not complete, I have since built a wall around it to form a boiler room, have a nice epoxy floor and all my electrical and LV wiring is wired up permanent and neat now that the boiler is working properly! Also, I piped it back the way I had it before the Weil McLain general tech said I should change it....because esentially it was the same. So, yes...it is complete and neat and the back wall is even painted so it looks nice and pretty. Thanks for your concern and support for Fred-Head. Greg
  • Tony Tony @ 3:24 PM
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    ODR ?

    If ODR is connected your target temp won't be 190 unless it's a design day. The MCBA control is pretty reliable.
  • alang alang @ 12:58 PM
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    Ultra 155 Series 2 b-25 error and low temp

    New to this board - but read all the thread on the Series 3. We have a <2 yr old Ultra 155 Series 2 that has started to misbehave over the past several days: LCD shows b-25 'Soft lock out for Outlet temp rising too quickly'. Boiler shuts down and re-starts, but is failing to reach the target temp of 190 - swings between 90-150. LCD shows Code 6 'Burner off as target temp has been reached', and LCD shows say 122, and cycles again. Each time it cycles, it might reach a higher temp, which is where the 150 comes from, but then may drop down to 120 again. If the DHW aquastat calls for heat, it can chug along and reach proper target temp, or could also show b-25 - almost random. As it has been performing fine until now, I can't see that it is a flow/mechanical fault, all circs are operating, and I suspect the control board or a sensor. The system has DHW and 3 zones on circulators - loops are approx same length, Grundfos 3 speed circulators, and as there are BTU meters in two of the loops, it is possible to see the flows per loop: 2.5 g/min on slow, to 4.6 g/min on fast - changing flow does not affect the problem. The boiler is under a maintenance contract with a local Weil Mclain agent, and I have a non-urgent service call in - but to be 'kind', I thnk I know more about the system than they do - hence this query to see if anybody has similar experience or suggestions, so I can have an in 'intelligent' discussion with their techs ..... Research shows the control module is a Honeywell MCBA, which is used by many manufacturers, and it is possible that other eqpt may also have shown similar symptoms if the control board/sensors were faulty ?? Last point: there is an outdoor temp sensor for reset. Makes no difference to the problem if disconnected. so not related to that sensor ... ? any feedback welcomed, Alan
  • Tony Tony @ 10:01 PM
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    series 2

    Could be the return or supply sensor on the block. Could also be a circ starting to crap out or air in the system.
  • alang alang @ 3:12 PM
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    thanks for feedback: damn thing just ran for about 12 hrs without a problem. ie. reaching target temp of 190 both on DHW and space heating loops - and no b-25. now it's just reaching 120-130, and saying it's at target. so don't think it's air (Spirovented etc) - and the circs seem to be fine (no bearing noise etc) so seems to be random electronic behaviour ? as u say sensors, or the control board.
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 7:47 AM
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    My installer is a super in a building and a friend of mine and is not the most experienced at these new boilers. His piping is good but I think this is a little over his head.
  • Rob Rob @ 9:01 AM
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    I replaced the board a week and a half ago and I haven't had a single lockout since. The new board was the fix.
  • alang alang @ 1:00 AM
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    My problems are solved. I received the new board from WM yesterday, although I haven't put it in yet. I found the supply too fast lock out was occurring during the post purge after the call for heat had ended. Adjusting the post pump and lowering the Off Diff took care of that. How is your system piped and when is it happening.
  • ChasMan ChasMan @ 8:11 PM
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    Well has everyone solved the mystery of the Weil Mclain Ultra 3 boiler,supply too fast error. Is the only known cure for this the pre purge setting, has it actually made remedy of all of the postings here. Follow up as I have the rare breed of Ultra 3s twinned up for double my fun. One unit shows no auto or manual lock outs in error history, while the other is having regular lock outs logged in error history. Both units are 310s and are piped the same, sitting side by side. Primary/secondary piping arrangement was used with the sensors on each side of the supply and return tees. Return sensors are six pipe dia. away and supply maybe two feet down stream.
  • Rich Rich @ 9:18 PM
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    Ultra 3 230

    I am a contractor and recently installed a Ultra 3. 3 zones, circulators w/ fan coils and dhw What a temperamental piece of equipment! I was having the some lock-out issue's at first, return>supply, supply too fast and temp sensor faults. i was able to stop the lock-outs by running the post-pump time up to 75seconds on both system and DHW to pull heat from the block, cutting my max temp by 5deg (190 to 185) and lowering the off differential to 3. I haven't had any faults in 3 days but I will look into the software version now. Glad to know I wasn't alone on this.
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 9:14 AM
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    How is this fix working so far?
  • Greg Greg @ 12:03 PM
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    weil mclain was the worste investment i ever made

    "freaking no good pile of junk"...... It's not really a piece of junk. read the whole chain of posts on this forum. You probably have the older control module with no Pre-Purge feature. Weil Mclain had an oversight when they released the Ultra 3 control module. They have a fix which your installer can do. He needs to look at the sofware versions in your boiler and contact a weil McLain rep. to try to get the newer module which contains a software revision. Mine works like a swiss watch now....it's great. Greg
  • TonyBal TonyBal @ 9:17 AM
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    Still working great?
  • Greg Greg @ 11:57 AM
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    outdoor temp. sensor

    I believe you need to power cycle the boiler once you attach the sensor. The microprocessor seems to poll and detect the sensors during a power-up. Greg
  • Bill Bill @ 2:47 PM
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    outdoor temp. sensor

    Has been working great since install. Saving lots of gas while it changes water temperature to coincide with the outdoor temp. Will the heater also change water temperature when return water gets close to supply temp.- in other words the house is not pulling off much heat from the radiators. Is this what modulation refers to. Thanks for putting up with these basic questions- I had a professional do the install I just like knowing how it works and appreciating the complexities. Hydronic engineering is fascinating - you guys are brilliant!
  • mike mike @ 9:22 PM
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    Oversize the header ?

    not at this point. but that very idea was used on a previous install with a series 1, i think it was, and we were advised by a local old timer to go from 1-1/4" to 3" bec of a known problem with the w-ms. and after all was said AND done, w-m said that it wasn't necessary bec they had compensated for the problem by shipping the unit with a different pump. soldering 3" cu? arrrggghhh! 'return temps are coming back that hot' well, there's the real rub for me; how can the return be greater then the supply? what, it's a 'perpetual motion machine'? how could it gain heat after it just dissipated it to a cold room? now that's an efficient boiler! over 100% the baseboards became heat pumps?
  • Tony Tony @ 6:55 AM
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    mike

    re-read my post as far as return temps. Are you zoned with valves or pumps ?
  • mike mike @ 6:23 PM
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    re-read my post as far as return temps

    we're zoned with pumps, and i understood what you meant. but the only way that i can get my head around it is if the return is coming back so fast that it hasn't lost enough heat + mixing with the 'supply' at the boiler loop, where the 10deg rule comes in and then, i get another recall today; circuit 2 pump took a dump. original pump, b&g slc-30. how long are the circuits? it wasn't my installation, so i can't give you an accurate answer. but tomorrow, if i'm not on the run, i'll see if i can get the approx feets. very old bldg, dirt floor/stone wall basement, many 'strange' areas/runs, and poorly insulated
  • Supply House Rick Supply House Rick @ 12:43 PM
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    If your post is not just a typing problem, then the best way to get return temperatures greater than the supply temperatures is to have the sensors wired backwards; i.e., on connector P14, hooking the supply sensor to Pins 2 and 3 and the return sensor to pins 1 and 2. Supply and Return in the W-M manual refer to supply to the house, and return from the house. If you think in terms of the boiler (e.g., supply to the boiler and return from the boiler), you will get these indications wrong and you will confuse the U-control.
  • Greg Greg @ 12:58 AM
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    beautiful

    Oh please....get some thicker skin. If any of the comments here offended anyone...oh well! All of it was aimed at Mr. "Well...you should have had a professional do it" who thinks that all homeowners and DIY'ers are idiots. Nobody here is meager exept that narrow-minded idiot. I had a valid problem that was not caused by the install...but regardless....I got accused of being a dumb DIY'er and it was my fault. Everyone should realize that these systems adopted a technology that was not previously used much in the United States in residential and light commercial heating systems....CPU control. That being the case, a DIY'er who does something for a living other than hydronics and heating systems might just have more experience with CPU and logic controls. Alot can be learned by just listening and observing. That said, your buddy there should learn to be a little more open minded....and maybe he'd then absorb some of the useful knowledge that gets posted on these forums instead of barking and whining like a nervous dog who's bone is about to be taken away. Greg
  • Greg Greg @ 1:04 PM
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    running boiler all the time

    I did some calculations and it seems that running the pumps 24/7 like that person mentioned, would use alot of electric over the whole winter. Thus...there goes your boiler efficiency out the window! What you save on gas goes toward electric....especially if you have more than 2 zones. Also, it would be a really hard to balance multiple zones with the same temp water flowing through all of them all the time and not utilizing your wall T-Stats. I followed up with the Weil Mclain engineer in Indiana yesterday regarding my resolved issue (he wanted to know how my new control board worked and if it resolved the problem). He agreed that the system is designed work in conjunction with your wall T-Stats to obtain maximum efficiency and to not run pumps 24/7. He also verified for me that the external supply / return sensors that you strap to the pipes have no influence on boiler operation and are simply there so you can obtain a temperature reference of supply / return of your heat zones (any settings for differential etc. rely on the internal sensors within the boiler). The only external sensor that has an influence on boiler operation is obviously the outdoor reset sensor. And you want to set up the reset curve so that on milder days it will send cooler water through your heating zones and take longer to satisfy a heat call (but not run 24/7). That keeps from overshooting the wall T-stat temp. and allows for cooler water returning to the boiler (condensing condition - maximum efficiency) on all but the coldest of days. You can also increase the temp differential (modulate on diff)so that the boiler will not cycle on and off as much yet will still provide warm water through calling zones. Lots of settings to tweak to suit your particular installtion! I know some people that have had these type of boilers installed and the installers never even bothered to hook up the outdoor temp. reset. They either did not have enough knowledge on installing these newer mod/con boilers, or just did not want to be bothered spending the time to tweak the settings. So...I wonder how many people have mod/con boilers that are not getting what they paid for. Greg
  • Chris M Chris M @ 1:48 PM
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    if your end switch is gettin low voltage to it the board will say supply to fast remove end switch reset unit use jumper as your t-stat see if that takes care of it worked for me iused a 24v contactor and i was done SON
  • Greg Greg @ 1:31 PM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts - Problem solved

    Mondays are rough...wanted to report earlier but....this is the first chance I had to sit down at a PC today. I ran the new controller over the weekend. I have had no lockouts (neither auto-reset nor manual reset) since I put it in. Working like a swiss watch. It was down in the 20's in Queens NY over the weekend and there was plenty of cycling going on. There would have been plenty of lockouts with the old controller. I basically set the Pre-Purge time to 2 minutes. That gave the initial slug of hot water a chance to mix-down through the boiler 1 time as well as it having a second pass through the heating zone to cool it even more while the boiler is doing it's start-up sequence. Some more info on software versions : Old Controller: Display : v1.02 Main Micro : v1.00 Second Micro : v1.03 New Controller: Display : v1.03 Main Micro : v1.00 Second Micro : v1.04 I did not find any other added features besides the Pre-Purge capability. Everyone, Thanks for all the input and suggestions. Hope all the info that came out from everyone on the forum helps everyone else. Good luck with your Ultra 3's and stay warm! Greg
  • chris chris @ 8:35 AM
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    105 lockout

    We changed a troubled 105 board last week, and so far so good. Pre pump is at 45 secs. Seems to be ok. Customer hasn't called with any lockouts. Looks like we were the suckers to test the unit out for them. Customer is still holding back final payment for 30 days to make sure there are no "other" issues.
  • Joe H Joe H @ 4:12 PM
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    This post save us HOURS of work!!!

    We just installed an Ultra 3 purchased last December. The person doing the installation worked his @$$ off trying to get the thing to operate properly. Yesterday we had another modulation fault, supply too fast. After all the time he put into this project, he could not understand why the errors continued to occur. Last night I found this site, it cleared the questions that lingered. Today we called the Weil-Mclain rep who verified our boiler had the old software version along with needs for the new control module. He was on site within 1 hour! He also found a package of 3 ampere fuses I purchased because we had blown one last week. His recommendation was to use a separate control panel for activating athe zone valves. Weare in the process of following his recommendations. I was not there to question him on why a separate controller is needed but I do not need more problems with this boiler. Again-- great site! Great information, save us hours of trouble shooting. Joe
  • jcarta jcarta @ 9:17 PM
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    the ultra is very critical on primary /secondary piping--if is not done exactly you will have trouble-
  • Gary Gary @ 11:07 PM
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    "the ultra is very critical on primary /secondary piping--if is not done exactly you will have trouble-" nope. The p/s loop is not required on this or any mod/con. The purpose is to help protect your very expensive boiler, but it is not necessary. Just highly recommended.
  • Ralph Ralph @ 9:04 PM
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    Ultra 155 series 3

    I have the same "supply too fast" lockout issues. I'm a do it yourselfer who has no problem paying a pro when I can afford it. I read a lot of books, and a pro friend of mine told me I would have no problem with the install. He offered to help but then got way too busy when the weather turned cold. I only get the lockout once every week or so. I haven't called Weil Mclain. Does anyone know what I should do now? Has anyone actually had the problem resolved?
  • Greg Greg @ 7:46 PM
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    right!

    Hacked up....my ass....now that my problem will be solved with the RIGHT CONTROL BOARD from WEIL MC LAIN. I can make my wiring permanent and finish the job. It's my own house and it was installed in the little spare time I have because I have a real job. Not like it was for a customer so it didn't need to be complete in 1 day. Go back to cleaning your drains and roto-rooting which it looks like you do best. I'm not a plumber or heat system installer by trade....so come over here and lets see how good you can sweep tune a glycol cooled IOT television broadcast transmitter with a spectrum analyzer and sideband adapter, then you can come back here and make your dumb comments. I think this forum is for helping people solve problems, so do something useful and help someone instead of being a douche and thinking your so great that your butt smells like roses. Looks like I got my problem solved....you the "professional" did not have much input in the process.
  • Tony Tony @ 8:50 PM
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    There it is : )

    The true intelligence of the DIY'er who thinks his job is "just fine". Start calling names and using "language" and making off-base assumptions about another party because they found fault with your "masterpiece" and didn't provide the "help" you desired. "Help" that amounted to telling you what you wanted to hear. I don't care what you do for a living at your "real job" and I'm not intimidated. As if mine is not. I've been in this business for over 25 years. Fixed tons of "HO specials" that they wanted to blame on the manufacturer. You got lucky. You wouldn't have listened if it was your own problem, I'm betting. Don't kid yourself that there aren't a bunch of guys here who could easily do what you do with the training required. Roto-rooting indeed. Is that the best slam you could think of ? Don't you know the difference between a drain-cleaning plumber and a hydronics technician ? Save your High School locker room names for your buds. Making derogatory comments here will get you less help in the future, not more. And you might need it.
  • Greg Greg @ 3:42 PM
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    Ufortunately, That was the hardest part. I had to raise dust at both ends (NJ office and their main tech support number). Many times results don't happen by being nice. But to be fair, I think they only have a couple of guys there and they are never in the office. Probably quite busy considering the population density of the Tri-State area. Greg
  • Gary Gary @ 12:05 AM
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    Ok, here goes... I have a 105. It's an awesome machine. I run it around the clock and have no errors. I do not have DHW hooked up, I have a separate water heater. Ok first issue. You do not indicate what type heat emitters you are using, just that you have three zones. I have cast iron radiators and a single zone. Second issue, outdoor reset and temperature of system. 180 all the time is REALLY HOT and probably not necessary. And what are you doing with your thermostat? I have mine on full all the time and let the outdoor reset do the hard work. With the ULTRA 105 there are three separate heating priorities. 1 is for dhw 2 is for your house 3 is for an additional circuit, like a snow melt. Do not turn modulation to a limit of 50% you'll freeze to death, turn it back up to 96%. So, dhw circuit is working as expected. So let's not touch priority one, leave it alone. When the dhw circuit needs heat the boiler should fire up to 100% (96%) so that it can put out the incredibly hot 190 degree water you want in your dhw. (actually that's too hot, but you can temper it with cold water... or turn it down to 140... because NOBODY needs 190 degree hot water. But again, let's leave priority one alone... fiddle with it later but not now. Let's talk about priority two, your house circuit. The default setting for cast iron is 180 degrees at 0 outside and 120 degrees at 70 outside. That's too hot. I fiddled with it alot and ended up with 180 at 0 and 75 at 70. Now I live in an old house that is drafty and again I use cast iron radiators... they are HIGH MASS and want to be heated all the time at a low temperature. first things first, hook up the included outdoor reset. Next, and this will seem weird, but trust me... turn your thermostat to maximum and leave it on all the time. One of the ways this boiler will save you money is to match your heat loss with the outside temperature. When it's warm outside (55) you do not need, or want, your water temperature to run at 180 degrees. (Unless you want to live in a sauna). at 55 degrees my 105 is putting out water that is about 100 degrees. Today the outside temp is about 30, and my boiler set a target of 130 degrees. (imagine how much money I save by not needing to heat that extra 50 degrees). So I run the boiler all the time, circulator on all the time, it shuts down only when: 1) The outdoor temp is 65 degrees or more (setable) 2) The supply temp is 3 degrees above the target temp (setable modulate off) It turns back on when: 1) The outside temp drops below 65 or 2) When the supply is more than 3 degreees below the target (setable modulate on) Otherwize it modulates to meet the heat loss as determined by the target temperature and supply and return temps (not boiler temps but the thermocouples on your secondary circuit). My guess at your fix: Turn all your zones on full when the heating cycle (priority two) comes on (in fact, just turn them on and leave them on 24/7 for now). Since I have no idea where your circuits are and how long they are I can only guess that your circuit is too small. Then the reason you would get a supply temp rising too fast error is that the heat is not going anywhere. Turn all your zones on and see if, in fact, you no longer get the error. You indicate the problem goes away after the reset. This is because your circulators are now drawing the heat to the zones. If you do not turn those zones on, the entire circuit is about 10 feet long... way to short and hence your supply temp rising to fast error. Turn the circulators on 24/7 and your problem should disappear. Then the way you set the temperature is to run around your house with a thermometer and measure the actual temperature. If the temp is too high, the key is not to adjust the thermostat, but to adjust the target temp by changing your high and low targets. (I spent $15 at radio shack to get a themometer with a seperate outdoor temp module that I can place anywhere I want and I can see two temps at the same time... my thermostat is set to 78 but my house is a nice toasty 69 all the time regardless of outdoor temp). While a board the pre-circulates the water will do the same thing as my fix... I think the fix is simply to turn all the circulators on. Mine are always on 100% they never shut down and I am saving a ton of money. Good luck, let us know...
  • TimS TimS @ 1:37 AM
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    hooray yippie!

    Congratulations Greg you figured it out making progress enjoy your boiler enjoy the heat and hot water! Gary you rock man! thats exactly how I feel you should take advantage of a mod/con boiler with outdoor reset & everything the control offers, comfort and efficiency. I'm not going to lose any sleep tonight cause I'll be dreaming about what is the coldest water my boiler can put out to make plenty of dhw and heat. I'm celebrating!
  • Greg Greg @ 11:46 AM
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    I agree / More Info

    Gary, I agree 100% that the extra options should be utilized...you pay for them and they will save $$ in the long run. Don't worry...I will add the outdoor reset and get everything else going the way it should. However....The boiler should be capable of operating properly and stay up and running within design parameters without the optional bells and whistles as well. So...I prefer to get it working properly as designed without the extra features....and then add them. Perhaps if it were running 24/7 and not allowed to cool...it would stay up...but I can run you through scenarios that it would not be happy like that as well. EG: power outage for 1 hour....power comes back....DHW calls...gets priority...call satisfied....2nd floor zone calls...boiler loaded with hot water / zone has cold water....same lockout scenario that I stated. Shouldn't be allowed to happen. Weil Mclain engineer agrees with me, no combination of pumps / flows / CPU settings / sensors etc. will help in my scenario except the pre-ignition pump run to pre-mix the water before ignition. Now...I could have concocted my own pre-ignition pump run with a couple of delay-relays...but it is the manuf's responsibility that these things operate under varying field conditions. The reason I was able to talk to the engineer for 40 minutes is because he actually appreciated all the data that I had accumulated for him. I had conditions under what the fault happened, teperatures, temerature ranges, observed flow conditions by manually cycling pumps in the system, the time it took for initial flow to travel through my heating zones, modulation rate at time of lockouts, heat load of my zones etc. etc. I am an engineer by trade, so observing and gathering as much data as possible to validate assumpsions or conclusions, in order to implement solutions....is part of what I do every day. So folks.....keep in mind, when you get the opportunity to speak to an engineer at manufacturers facility, gather as much information as you can beforehand...we like that. Apparently the Series 3 control was pushed out into the market, for a good reason, but perhaps a bit prematurely. Series 2 folks usually won't experience this kind of nuisance fault because the series 3 controller's behavior is quite different (I have 3 friends that I helped install series 2's last year). Also, engineer noted that it is mostly the 105 that suffers this issue when it happens. Most likely because the 80 does not generate as much heat (it uses the same aluminum casting as 105) and the 155 / 230 has more water capacity and gets more water flow (it has a totally different aluminum casting than the 80/105)It would be nice if the series 3 contoller firmware was field upgradable because I'm sure the revision I get will not be the final one, but hey....if my heat keeps working this winter, I will be grateful. Sorry for being long winded...but I think this info benefits everyone here. Greg
  • Rob Rob @ 3:12 PM
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    Greg Thanks for doing all the legwork for us. Now if I could get a call back from Weil Mclain's NJ office. Rob
  • chris chris @ 10:34 AM
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    board update

    Hi Greg, Spoke w/ you at the beginning of the week. I installed a 105 last week. We had a bad board for priority 2. We moved the heat over to priority 3 so the customer would have heat and hw. It was working fine until this morning. Boiler locked out on same code supply to fast, thinking it's becasue it was really cold here mid, 20's. I'm trying to get the updated board, and was wondering if you got your in an running? Also what did you set the preburner times for (if you can do that). Thanks, this is extremely frustrating, Customer owes me a lot of money and now they want to hold back final payment for 30 days to make sure the boiler is going to WORK... Mike Brown
  • Bill Bill @ 10:57 AM
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    running boiler all the time

    The idea sounds logical but how does it know the temperature inside and what if you want to change the inside temp. Also, what are the costs of running the pumps 24/7 compared to having the thermostat working with the outdoor sensor? In other words the heater output temp. fits the requirements of the day but when the house temp. is satisfied the unit shuts off.
  • Greg Greg @ 12:04 AM
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    There it is : )

    Thats right folks, take this hypocrites advice.....NEVER EVER do anything for yourself! Just plant your lazy butts in your chair and..... Need to go out and cut your grass? Hire a lawn care professional! Need a simple asphalt shingle roof done? call a roofing professional! Need your room painted? Call an ineterior coating professional! Need a storage shed for your yard? Call a carpentry professional. Need new furniture? Get an interior design professional. Need your walk cleared of snow? Call a snow removal specialist! Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Need to scratch your ****.....oh never mind....he is the professional at that. This guy cracks me up! Greg
  • Paul Cooke Paul Cooke @ 10:04 AM
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    Do it yourselfer\"s

    Greg It appears you are equating the building of a storage shed to the installation of a complex hydronic system. Perhaps now that you have solved your problem you can realize that the two are no where near equal in the skills required. You came to this site for answers and many professionals stepped up to help you. Then you begin to call names and spew venom and sound quite selfish in the process. Your attitude makes me, as a heating professional, not want to help you, a do-it yourselfer, or others like you. One of my teeth has been bothering me lately....I think I will go online and buy some dental tools and perform my own root canal. What the heck, I have some free time this weekend. If I have a problem I can always go online and find the "dentalhelp" website and post my questions. By the way, please go back to installing TV antennas. From the look of the photos you posted your near boiler piping looks like an abomination.
  • Greg Greg @ 12:02 PM
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    Do it yourselfer\"s

    Paul, If you don't know why the near-boiler piping is like that.....Bite your tongue! I had it piped nice and neat and the first Weil Mclain tech guy I spoke to recommended changing it....and if you read the posts, I believe I mentioned that. To get it the way that they recommended, I had do it that way due to space limitation. Also, Weil Mclain had no problem with it the way it is now....they got pictures. You and Fred both contributed no useful (or any suggestions for that matter) only to bash DIY'ers and my piping, which is fine....I know why it is the way it is. So please sit back down in the peanut gallery. Greg
  • Tony Tony @ 7:56 PM
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    Hypocrite ?

    You need a dictionary. To equate what I do professionally with mowing the lawn or shoveling the walk is ludicrous. Can't defend your sloppy piping without insulting the criticizer ? Grow up. And don't tell me W-M's engineer said it looked good. He probably was just trying to get you off the phone. So, because I didn't offer any constructive help, I'm no good huh ? Sorry, pats-on-the-back and self-esteem are earned, not given without merit. Paul and I don't have to shut up and sit down because we didn't help you, either. It's people like you who are the cause of manufacturers and pros not coming here or posting anymore. You think you know more than you will and won't listen without hurling insults. I see you're an engineer. Not an ME, I'm betting. A sound or electronics engineer isn't the same. As far as I'm concerned, you're all that and a bag of chips.
  • dave dave @ 8:19 PM
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    beautiful

    Guys, Lets all give Gregie a pat on the back. You da man! We should all now return to our meager existence.
  • smc smc @ 11:21 AM
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    we had the same sloution as pete rep came out said some defective boards-replaced board and also programmed a pump pre post run to temper the exchanger and cut down on drastic temperature rise-been ok for a couple weeks now
  • Greg Greg @ 6:40 PM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 lockouts - Solution?...Finally!

    Finally got where I wanted today. I guess I made enough noise at the NJ Tri-State field office yesterday. They had an engineering guy in Indiana call me. That is who I needed to talk to! I'm glad to report that my observations and my previous statemnt about a control / firmware solution was right on target. What are they sending me tomorrow? They are sending a controller that has the functionality of a programmable pre-ignition circulator cycle. So the boiler pump and zone pump can circulate for a programmable amount of time before the boiler fires up. They knew they had a problem with many Ultra 105 series 3's and admitted to me that they revised the control module to alleviate that problem in many installations of the 105 series 3. I raised the concern of having a non standard control module in case I need a replacement one day. All future control modules will have this capability built in according to them. Along with the module comes a new front panel screen as well. He told me that the current screen did not have space to add extra lines for menu selection of settings. Updates to follow....but this should be the fix I was looking for. Greg
  • Ken Field Ken Field @ 8:39 PM
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    What about us

    Just installed a 105 today. Do I need to worry about this? It has a DHW zone, one primary/secondary large water volume zone, and 3 small zones controlled by zone valves. If I need to be aware of an impending problem, would like to be prepared. Ken F To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Greg Greg @ 11:04 PM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

    I would assume that it would depend where it was purchased and their volume of sales. My understanding from the enginer at Weil Mclain is that all the new control modules have the features of the one that they are sending me which includes curently shipped boilers. So if your's was in your distributors stock for a while it might have an earlier control board. Best advice is to keep this all in mind when you start it up and see if it has the problem. Then you will at least have an immediate starting point. I spoke at great length to the engineer and basically what I got out of the coversation is that many installations had problems with the old board while some did not and that they really could not pin down what the real difference was between installations, so the modification was made to allow greater flexibility with more widely varying flow rates / head losses/ heat losses etc. instead of basing the boilers controlled behavior on a fixed set of parameters that they would use to test the design of the unit in their say...."lab" environment. Greg
  • Supply House Rick Supply House Rick @ 12:23 PM
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    New U-control board

    I had a new Weil-McLain Ultra 3 80K boiler installed about a month ago, as well as one of their indirect hot water heaters. It seems to work just fine as a water heater. I checked the U-control settings and it is a new board. The Maximum Firing Rate comes set to 94% now, not the 96% specified in the manual. The manual does not mention the pre-pump setting. It comes with the pre-pump times set at 20 seconds. I assume that when winter gets cold (some time from now, since it is now mid-June), I know what to diddle if I have this problem. I have three zones, controlled by circulators, not valves. #1 is hot water heater: 190F. Postpump currently set to 60 seconds. #2 is radiant heat from the slab for my downstairs heating. 120F. Postpump currently set to 30 seconds. #3 is some baseboard heating for upstairs. It is currently set at 140F which I calculate is enough, but winter will tell. Postpump currently set to 30 seconds. For this model, they specify that the closely spaced tees should be no more than 12" apart; my contractor placed them 5" apart. They further specified that the significant piping should be at least 1" in diameter; my contractor said they got better results with 1 1/4", so that is what they used for the primary loop and the secondary loop up to the circulators, and for the section where the return pipes come together to enter the return tee.
  • Jason Jason @ 10:27 AM
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    similar issue

    We were having a similar lock out issue and found the problem yesterday.Apparently Weil-McLain found a problem in some of the boards in the seies 3 controls. They said not all of them and you could have 2 boilers side by side and it might only affect one. This is the deal. When you have an indirect tank and the water in the tank has sat for a while with no call to reheat then the call comes to reheat the tank , the delta T between the temp of the water coming in from the tank and the outlet of the boiler is to large. The boiler then goes into soft lockout. This happens 5 times before it goes into hard lockout and needs to be reset. Weil-McLain brought us a new control this morning.
  • @ 3:12 PM
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    Board issue also

    I just had an Ultra 3 105 installed and having the same problem, according to Weil rep, new board is on it's way
  • Greg Greg @ 11:40 AM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

    See my last post....I basically detailed my observations and said there should be a pre-pump run setting before ignition in their firmware. I think the Ultra 3 control is too new and still has some issues (whoopee...we get to be beta-testers during these cold snaps). I just hope Weil makes good on it for all their end users. Not all installations will will be opering in a tolerance of .01 GPM or temerature loss / rise spec. Greg
  • Jason Jason @ 12:41 PM
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    should have mentioned

    This is exactly what the new board is doing. Creating a post purge for DHW.A little bird also told me that there is a add on control that will eliminate resets after power outages on the series 1 and 2's. YEAH
  • Greg Greg @ 11:31 AM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockout problem

    I'll address a few questions here.... 1 - The problem I have is not with DHW calls. I did not check delta-t across the DHW tank....but on DHW calls the teperature rise across the return / supply of the boiler is generally ~15 - 20 deg. 2 - According to Weil Mclain, the boiler should be able to run with no outdoor temp. reset. While outdoor temp. reset may alleviate my problem somewhat, it will be back to the same thing when it's very cold out and the target temp does not get reset. 3 - Weil Mclain Ultra 3 control boards.....I personally think that their firmware needs a revision. The pumps should come on for 2-3 minutes before the boiler ignition sequence to allow all the water in the system to become homogenous and have a more stable temperature state. If you recall my first post....my problem happens when the initial surge of hot water that rests in the boiler (upon a heat call) travels through one of my heating zones and then comes back around and hits the return Tee. That hot water feeding into the supply along with the fact that 1 minute has passed and the boiler has come out of it's low modulation start-up state and is cranking away trying to reach target temp.....of course there will be a fast rise in temp at the supply. Also like I said once that initial lockout happens....if I am in front of the boiler and reset it right away...everything is happy....because after that point in time...the initial hot water has done one pass around my heat loop back with a mix of water from the boiler as well as cooler water from the return loop and all temps are more stable and the boiler proceeds to work with no problem until another heat call with the same conditions. Also....if I start everything off cold (cold zones....coold water in boiler) there is no problem. Greg
  • Greg Greg @ 11:11 AM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

    Rob, It should not matter that your zone circs stay circulating while there is a DHW priority. there is a flow check on the supply side of your boiler loop and also with the boiler circ not running, the zone water will take the path of least resistance and flow only in the zone heating loop. When DHW is done with it's call, boiler should shut down and re-fire on the heat call and start on its way to heating the heat zone again. Greg
  • chris chris @ 12:24 AM
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    pics look ok

    it looks like it should work to me. The end of the S&R loops are capped, not connected together right? I can't see it the pic.. Are you sure there is no air in the primary loop? Here are some pics of one I put in friday. http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=60198&mc=6 I've had great luck w/ the ultra until this one. hopefully it is just a minor glitch.
  • chris chris @ 12:49 AM
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    why is target temp 180

    I would check w/ the rep on sensor location maybe the supply and return sensor should be on the piping out of the boiler instead of the secondary loop. The manual is not real clear on location. I've put mine on the primary loop piping, with no lockout problems yet, knock on wood..
  • TimS TimS @ 1:41 AM
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    the sensor location looks correct I interpret the system pipes stated in manual to mean secondary loop not the boiler loop. Mike you may want to correct that on your system . Greg switch the speed on your zone pumps down to low this may help. also finish programming the control you did not put time & date in yet what else needs to be done?
  • chris chris @ 1:53 AM
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    Thanks Gerry, I'll check that out in the morning. After reading the manual again, it looks like you are right. I was also thinking the pump speed high might be too much for the system. Mike
  • chris chris @ 6:22 PM
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    sensor location

    Thanks Gerry for bringing sensor location to my attention. While diagnosing another problem, DHW priority, turned out to be a bad board on priority two, We moved the sensors. Thanks again Greg how did you make out with your issues?
  • Greg Greg @ 12:49 AM
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    Weil Mclain Ulra 3 Lockouts

    Mike, Yes, the ends on those manifolds are capped. I am pretty sure there is no air trapped in the primary loop. I was getting some pump cavitation which is why you can see in the pics that I added the air bleeder in the high horizontal run of the loop. That stopped the pump cavitation and occasional gurgling I heard previously. So, theres that plus the spirovent, plus the air bleeder on the DHW tank. I think i'm air free. Greg
  • Greg Greg @ 10:35 PM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockout problem

    Hi Folks, I stumbled across thois board and and it looks like theres some here that have had experiences with the Weil Mclain Ultra 3. Just installed one at home and have an issue. The unit is a Series 3-105 set up with DHW and 3 heat zones. I have piped out the system exactly according to their drawings. I even had a friend of mine who is a Master Plumber check my work and he sees nothing wrong with my piping. My observations of the problem follow: The lockout "Supply Too Fast" happens several times / day now that it is getting colder. This appears to happen when there has been a previous call for DHW or call for heat on another zone and there is hot water resting in the boiler. The cold zone (one that hasn't called for heat for a while) calls for heat...cold water in baseboards. Initial hot water resting in boiler goes out and starts to travel to zone. Boiler fires and comes up at about 40% flame for 20 seconds or so...flame modulation reduces to about 20% for a short time....then the flame modulation ramps up in it's attempt to reach the target temperature of 180. Just about that time, the initial surge of hot water that travelled up the zone is returning....it hits the Tee on the return side that is when the problems start. I see the supply temperature start to rise very rapidly on the boiler (which is what causes the lockouts...Weil manual states that a temp. rise of over 2 degrees / second on supply side locks out the boiler). This happens at about 110-120 deg. on supply side. Once the lockout is cleared, the boiler continues on it's merry way and happy. It seems like once everything is homegenous and at a more steady state, everthing is happy and the supply temp. climbs gradually to the target temp. So, being that Weil Mclain manual is somewhat vague on engineering aspects of primary / secondary loop and what actually happens in the closely spaced tee's, I ask for assistance. I have my tee's spaced 8" apart (according to Weil Mclain yoou can go up to 12"). Is this too far apart? Is it possible that my primary / sec is not working correctly? My understanding of pri. / sec. loop is that the boiler loop feeds some of the water back to itself to help maintain a steadier temperature within the boiler loop and it just adds some heat to the heating loop. In Weil Mclain's piping, I don't quite see how it is possible that supply water can be returned to the boiler. If you look at their diagram, the supply water would have to oppose the flow of the heating zone water (which travels straight through the tees) in order for any amount to be fed back to the boiler. Am I looking at this the wrong way? Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Boiler seems to be working great aside from this issue which seems like it will ultimately be some type of flow issue. I have forced the Max. flame modulation to 50% for now to remedy the lockouts so I can have some heat! Thanks Much! Greg
  • chris chris @ 6:25 PM
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    post purge

    Greg, did you try changing the post purge time on the DHW zone, to pull more heat from the boiler into the indirect, before the call for heat?
  • Greg Greg @ 7:43 PM
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    post purge

    Mike, I see it in the manual. It's actually called post-pump time. I will give it a shot. I will have to do it with the priority 2 FTB also, since the lockout also occurs when theres been a recent heat call on an adjacent zone (eg:first floor finishes a heat call 10 minutes ago and then 2nd floor calls with cold water in baseboards). I don't think that will work though in the case of the Priority 2 FTB Post Pump time...since when my Argo relay panel terminates the call for heat, the only water that will still be circulating is the main boiler circ. The Argo shuts the zone pump after like 10 seconds which wont get much heat out of the system. If there is some flow issue going on, I would really like to resolve it though instead of "tricking" the boiler. However....I probably wont know that until the Weil Mclain field guy in NJ calls me back....he seems to be ignoring me at the moment. I got to speak to him only one time early last week.
  • chris chris @ 8:19 PM
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    fied service

    I know the feeling about getting in touch with reps. It is very frustrating. I had a bad board on a 105 that I had to figure out myself by trial and error. Homeowner was PO'ED, expecially since i recommended the boiler. When we spend this much money on a component you would think it should work right, and if not someone who had their salary paid to them because you installed their products, would call you back.
  • TimS TimS @ 2:17 AM
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    Greg I have one last idea set the "modulate on differential" to the maximum 10.
  • Gary Gary @ 11:12 PM
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    that won't help solve your problem. The modulate on/off is designed to help the boiler keep running. Setting it high can make your problem worse... set it low. Mine is +3 -3 with cast iron and it works like a charm.
  • Greg Greg @ 3:13 PM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

    Fed up with Weil Mclain already. I am at the boiling point....maybe i'll just throw it out and get a Trinity or Munchkin....know 3 people with those and no issues and NTI's support is good from what I have heard a few people say. It will be another $3k but at leat I'd have heat this winter. Never will I recommend their product to anyone given this type of support attitude. 35 degrees in NY and an angry homeowner and tenant to boot!.....great situation. At Weil's Chicago office, I get a receptionist that just wants to keep forwarding me to the same 2 tech support guys that I have already spoke to with no solutions. She seems programmed to not let you past her to speak to anyone else. At the Tri-State Field rep. office, the receptionist just forwards you to peoples voice-mail box. I even have 3 names for people at the Tri-State field rep. and receptionist always says they are not there and gives you voice mail box to leave a message with no return calls.
  • Tony Tony @ 9:09 PM
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    well

    Maybe you shoulda hired a pro to do it. Not as simple as you thought is it ? Another $3G's ? That might've gotten you a professional install.
  • Greg Greg @ 6:26 PM
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    Haha...thats the best laugh I've had all day.....you guys always think you are "special" and better than anyone else. Got job security syndrome? You should see some of the job's I have seen that so called "professionals" have done. Go see my further postings...talked to Weil Mclain today.
  • Tony Tony @ 7:16 PM
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    Nope

    No job security issues here. Just noticing how sloppy and hacked up your "install" looks. None of my work looks like that and all mine WORK. And, if they don't I figure them out myself w/o whining on the internet. In fact, I've helped solve more technical issues with modern boilers than you've experienced on your "career install". So yeah, I AM special, thank you. :)
  • Gary Gary @ 11:10 PM
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    weil mclain will not help you. That is not the way they work. While it may be frustrating, they DO NOT support do-it-yourselfers. They are set up to help distributors who in turn help professional plumbers. Don't give up yet, I still need to read more... (I thought I had a bad motherboard too, turns out I had a loose connection).... I LOVE my ULTRA, don't give up yet...
  • Rob Rob @ 8:50 AM
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    Same problem

    Greg Just installed my 105 and it is locking out too. Mine is a soft lockout and when it resets in 60 seconds it works fine. I was getting quite a few of them and I changed my post purge time on the FTB zone to 45 seconds and it seems to have reduced (but not eliminated the problem. Mine seems to lockout when on the call for DHW but it has locked out on the call for FTB heat too. The last time it locked out on the call for heat the lockout history showed a higher return temp than supply temp which really shouldn't be possible I'm a little reluctant to increase the post purge much more but this lockout problem is troubling me. If you figure this out, let me know Rob
  • Rob Rob @ 9:57 AM
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    Greg How are you controling the zone circulators when the DHW circulator kicks in? I'm sure my problem is because I didn't install a relay to turn off my zone circulators when the DHW calls for heat. I'm only relying on the boiler going to DHW priority and shutting off the primary pump. I'll install the relay on the zone controller and see what happens Rob
  • pjc pjc @ 11:16 AM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra

    What amazes me is why anyone would put this stuff in a house. Your yearly gas bills on average are not great enough to warrant pay back on a (generous) 10% fuel savings. Weil-Mclain has over engineered their boilers since the introduction of the ridiculous gv gas boiler. If you look at the specs on the ultra, you'll find that the highest efficiencies are only achieved with low temperature systems. Having been at this for 30 years, I have found that the Weil-Mclain CGS (direct vent sealed combustion) is a far better value. The controls are straight forward as is the piping. It achieves efficiencies of 84%. When you factor in the cost of the ultra and the extra expense for piping, it is not really a wise choice.
  • Tony Tony @ 11:55 AM
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    I guess

    I guess if you don't understand the difference between a MODULATING/condensing boiler, you would see it the way you do. However, once you understand that the savings aren't limited to the 9% garnered by condensing only, and real-world savings is typically in the 40% range, you'd see it IS worthwhile. If you're only saying this because you like the simplicity of installation, and/or you really believe that 84% rating (at 140* supply), keep on truckin' cuz everybody's got their place in the chain :)
  • Al Letellier Al Letellier @ 4:45 PM
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    Ultra lock out

    had the same issue with a 155 lately. Our problem was on the domestic side. How did you size the circ for the indirect? If you used the chart in the Plus book, there lies your problem. Weil decided to go for a 2 degree drop across the heat exchange instead of a 5 degree in the earlier series and we had the wrong circ on the indirect. Use the manual in the boiler book and check your flow rates. I think this will solve your problem. Weil is aware they have to reprint the indirect book for the new series boiler. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Greg Greg @ 5:05 PM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

    Al, Thanks for the suggestion, but boiler works fine on the DHW calls. It only faults as described in my original post. Greg
  • chris chris @ 11:02 PM
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    any pictures

    Greg, do you have any pics of the job. I'm sure it can be figured out here if we know what you have. If piped as there drawing shows, the primary loop flows through the boiler into the one tee and out of the other, back to the boiler. At those tee's the zone circs "pick off" the hot water they need to send out to the respectful zone. The return water from that zone gets "mixed into the return tee of the primary loop, sending it back to the boiler. The individual zones don't really straight through the tees. In my opinion it sounds like you have a primary flow issue. Mike Hope that's a little cleared than mud for you.
  • TimS TimS @ 10:53 PM
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    seen similar

    but not lock outs just short cycling with lower setpoints what is the offset & the differential set at? I just read the other ultra post I have not serviced a series 3 yet just the older Ultras .
  • Greg Greg @ 9:56 AM
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    Whis is target temp.180

    Gerry, Target temp is 180 deg. by default. Any lower than 170 and it's not enough heat for the heating zone. Priority 1 (DHW is 190) and for heat calls it's 180. It would not matter if I changed that anyway. My lockouts happen around supply temp ~110-120. even if I lowered it to say 150, the flame modulation would be cranking away trying to make it 150, so it would lock-out just the same. Tried it. I have also tried various pump speed configurations with no good results. Thhose sensors on the pipe I believe are just for monitoring temperatures from the heat loops. They bear no influence on boiler operation. Boiler operation is based on its internal sensors. Those 2 sensors as well as the outdoor reset sensor are "Optional" and the boiler should operate properly without them. BTW...I have since set the time. Those were pics from well over a wek ago and I was more focused on the problem I was having than the clock. Greg
  • Gary Gary @ 11:03 PM
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    "Thhose sensors on the pipe I believe are just for monitoring temperatures from the heat loops. They bear no influence on boiler operation. Boiler operation is based on its internal sensors. Those 2 sensors" no no no no no no no. They have a HUGE influence on the boiler operation. Those supply and return sensors are the key to successful operation. They tell the boiler if the target temp has been hit or not (or is *modulate* above target or is *modulate* below target). They are not just their for fun, they are critical to correct operation. still reading... but I think your problem is that you are letting water get cold, that should never happen. The outdoor reset, while optional, is also critical... i'll tell you why in a bit...
  • Tony Tony @ 8:05 PM
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    You're the beaut

    Nobody ever said the things you're attributing to me. Remember, everyone can go back and read what was posted, so you can't really lie or embellish. I've installed more heating equipment with CPU's in more types of applications than you can imagine. I've not had a problem like yours that couldn't be fixed w/o crying for a new version of control logic. So, while you're feeling all vindicated and righteous over your one foray into another field, there are hundreds, maybe thousands, who do this every day and do it properly and neatly and don't have issues with equipment due to incomplete understanding. The Ultra Series 3 in these pics has the original control board configuration and has no problems because it was sized properly and installed properly.
  • Greg Greg @ 11:29 PM
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    \"You're the beaut \" - you sure are........

    (Sigh.) Look who comes out from under his rock when nobody even addressed him or mentioned his name. Im trying to think back to when I took psychology in college and I believe that stems from guilt of conscience and feelings of inadequacy. To add insult to injury, he posts pictures trying to prove himself (yowza!...look at sexy Freddie flexing his saggy muscles). Mr. perfect couldnt even dress the wiring instead of leaving it all hanging in mid-air and the sensor and zone valve wiring running about like the Ronzoni factory gone awry. Let me reduce myself to your level for a minute.(ughouchit hurts my back to crouch so low). In my 30+ year career I have installed more hydro-electro-mechanical systems, designed, built, tested, installed and programmed more CPU and ladder logic control systems in more parts of the world than you will ever do the rest of your life. I will spare you the embarrassment of the even more significant part of my career life. Yet, you wish to assume that I am some TV antenna installer or audio engineer. Quoted: and has no problems because it was sized properly and installed properly. Funny, even after proving my problem with documented observations, data and discussions with the manufacturer, and the testimonies of several people on this forum (I assume they are all wrong in your eyes too) you still insist that the manufacturer didnt have a problem and my problem was my fault. This just proves your stubborn narrow-minded ignorance that I mentioned in the last post. You were the one who got lucky, yours just happened to work in your particular installation. Now go back under your rock instead of attempting to insult people who need problems resolved and others who enjoy learning and doing projects themselves, free the forum up for what it was designed for.to help people, not bash them. Again, people like you with no clue crack me up!! Freddie my dear boy.GO SHOVE IT UP YOUR PROFESSIONAL FLUE PIPE!
  • Timco Timco @ 12:15 AM
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    Greg, Did not see a BFP, and many valves with no caps. How did your inspection go? Sorry, but the install is pretty messy. Most here have fit more in a tighter space and neater. Remember, WM said to change it ONLY because it was piped wrong in the first place. Who sold you the boiler? Do you have a permit or gas certification to do this as an independent? Tim
    Working on steam and hot-water systems isn't rocket science....it's actually much harder.
  • Tony Tony @ 10:08 PM
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    You're so cute :)

    All of your little analogies must make you feel real smart after you've taken 20 minutes to think them up. VERY impressive. About as impressive as your pics of YOUR ONE boiler. I don't believe for a minute you did any of the work pictured in your recent post. If you did, you wouldn't have done anything resembling the abortion in your original picture. Building a wall around it only covers it up, it doesn't make it square, plumb or level. How come no pics of THAT ? I don't care about your excuses for why it looked that way. If you knew what you were doing, you would've been able to pipe it so it wouldn't be a problem. Just like I did. No, that's NOT luck. As far as my MC cable, do you think I should've run EMT ? Do you think 18-24" is too far to "hang" ? Do you think anybody who counts really gives two craps what you think ? You've changed your story about what you do and your experience level twice now. Your credibility is crap. Your obviously rookie install, coupled with the fact that you came here to bitch and proceeded to insult professionals and attack anyone who criticized you tells all that you are neither a tradesman, professional, nor mature enough to have been in anything for 30 years. You try to imply that you've had years of experience in a similar field. The "little things" give you away. Go back to "drift tuning glycol cooled receivers". That would be under that dog pile you're familiar with. I'll take my rock any day :) You remind me of the Country song that says, "I'm so much cooler on-line".
  • Greg Greg @ 6:33 PM
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    Wow, I missed a good one by being so busy. I will probably offend someone here but what the hay? I dont know what its like in the rest of the world but I work in Northern NJ and there is enough work here to not have to fight with DIYs trying to discourage them from doing their own thing. I am quite a DIYer myself as well as a heat pro by day and Im all for DIY. Id rather that more DIYs did their own heating jobs of the magnitude of this guys. Lets face it, a 2 or 3 zone baseboard system is not rocket science and quite frankly the homeowners of these type of systems tend to be a pain more than a pleasure. Then when you get one that really screws it up and has nowhere to turn, you get to charge them alot to come in and usually do a few easy fixes. I get enough high-end homes and commercial business too keep me busy and quite frankly I enjoy doing those more than small systems like this guys. The bigger jobs are what pays the bills and I like the challenge of the complexity of the larger jobs. The people with high end homes typically dont care what they spend and the commercial has no choice if they want to keep running or expanding their business. Sounds like some of you are hungry to scoop up all the crumbs that you can. We should not try to hinder people who want to do stuff for themselves and learn on their own. That is the type of thing that has made this country so great. Do not try to impose that you have never tried to do something new on your own, whether it be at home or for the business. If you say that, you are not being honest with yourself. The way that the economy is going, dont be surprised if you see a lot more people DIYing trying to survive. This guy does not seem like a typical homeowner that only knows how to hang pictures and flip the main switch on the boiler either. He has provided lots of good solid info which might even help you. In fact, I have a few problem Ultra-3s in my region that I am going to re-visit now. Jeremy
  • Greg Greg @ 12:25 PM
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    Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

    Hi Ralph, Look at the fault history, is it happening during a heat call? or a call for DHW? If it is happening on a heat call, you may be experiencing the same situation I have. Have your pro-friend come over quick and check your work first AS I DID when I started noticing problems. He said my piping and circulator sizing was fine and it shouldn't be a problem. He also was stumped and ran out of advice for me, except to call the Weil Mclain main tech number. Also in the meantime, you folks experiencing these problems can make some observations to see if you have the same problem I experienced. 1 - let a heating zone go cold. 2 - make sure there is hot water in the boiler from a previous zone call or a DHW call. 3 - do a heat call on the cold zone. 4 - feel the return pipe for when the initial flow of hot water returns through the zone you just called. 5 - about the time that it hits the boiler return tee...watch the supply temperature on the boiler display (by this time the start up sequence with low flame modulation for one minute has passed and your flame modulation is probably quite high). 6 - count in your head (or on a watch) the elapsed seconds every time you see the sampled supply temperature go up. 7 - if it is rising a couple of degrees per second or a couple of degrees every 2 seconds, it is rising too fast and on the margin of becoming a fault (manual states rise of greater than 2 deg. per second will cause lockout). 8 - if after that point, the temperature rise on boiler supply becomes much more gradual, then you definitely have the same thing I am experiencing. I received the new control module with the revised firmware today. It came with a new screen to support more lines of text for the added menu settings. I will put it in tonight when I get home from work and report back to the forum after it has run over the weekend. Greg
  • Rob Rob @ 10:27 PM
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    I am having the same problem with a Ultra 155. I lowered the input for domestic hot water to 55% and installed a taco 0011 to the DHW circuit as per tech support. I went from hard lockout every 3 days to 30 days. Still having same problem.
  • TimS TimS @ 11:15 PM
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    Appears proper flow is critical with the Ultra 3 & temp rise too fast lockout & your trying to compensate for slow flows by reducing the fire rates to 50%. Do you have spring check valve on the dwh loop & the primary loop? If you are missing one you'll get unwanted flow thru the other loop and less flow thru boiler. Are you using outdoor reset? Personally I might increase the "modulate off differential" too. Sure would be fun to be there in person to trouble shoot this problem. My experience is these are installation issues on a boiler not too forgiving, if the older Ultra's had this temp rise too fast lockout it may have saved some them from death. Its a good boiler they are trying to protect it.
  • TimS TimS @ 9:59 PM
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    I have also tryed to get tech support usually no problem, currently have not made it thru for you. Can you tell me what the delta T is in high fire during heat mode & during dhw mode?
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