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CSST Banned in MA !!! (69 Posts)
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E- mail
Where did you get this e-mail from?
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Did you mean
"shUts" off the gas?
Either way, the meaning works.... :)
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I shut you not....
Who put the i next to the u ?
me
It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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CSST banned Mass?
A quick Google search came up empty. There may be some local jurisdictions doing this instead of at the State level.
Ever wondered why copper tubing was not part of the lightning litigation? Because of the tubing markings, you cannot readily identify who made it. Even when the plastic coating is burned off CSST, you can easily identify it by the mechanical couplings. Newer copper is being engraved but there are tons of unmarked copper tubing out there and yes, it can blow from lightning hits.
Lightning protection is an inexact science at best. For instance, a NASA scientist who studied lightning effects on space craft noted the better grounded and bonded, the higher the propensity to take a strike.
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Info received from...
I joined a group called BCPGIA. Bristol County Plumbers and Gas Fitters Inspectors Association. Its been meeting once monthly as a way local inspectors get together and go over certain jobs in their town so all are on the same page. No "he lets us do it over there". They opened their meetings to any licensed plumbers to attend and ask questions or hear others. Pretty good time. A state inspector who is very close to the Board attends as well as members of National Grid. (gas co). Received notice from the secretary of the group who works for National Grid.
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devils advocate
If nails can puncture it, then strike plates were not used.
Why do incoming gas utilities use poly under ground? In many cases only 18" below grade, it only takes a few digs with a shovel and then you hit it.
Why do electricians bond to water mains, again nowadays poly pipe coming in, how is that grounded?
If black pipe is used, but allowable gas flex connections are used at appliances, and lightning strikes, what happens to the flex connector?
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good points
only exception is outside punctured buried poly is not theoretically in a "contained" space, so the hazard is reduced..relatively speaking..
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C.S.S.T
Retarded greedy plumbers cause these problems. No respect for their job,On a positive note it takes Ma plumbers 5 years to be time served and maybe the teachers might have a clue on how to teach basic common sense within 5 years.I have a great idea, the faster we do this job we get paid, get drunk, grease the local plumbing inspectors and who gives a F****...
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BAN GAS
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What pray tell.........
Do the rule making bodies have to say about ProPress gas fittings and type L copper tube.
You know anything can be screwed up, destroyed, perforated or otherwise compromised. I was called once for a gas leak in a rental apartment. The tenant had used the 1/2" black running across the basement to hang all manner of clothing on. The steel hangers had pulled out of the floor joists and allowed........I'd guess 800-1,000 lbs of weight......to rest on the now unsupported pipe. Suprise!! The pipe failed at a coupling and spewed Nat gas all over the place. Thank the Lord someone had the presence of mind to crank the meter off on the house before it blew.
The point is .....NOTHING is fool proof. They make better fools every day.
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ban gas
All of the issues here are install related all gas pipe should be gounded if you look at the IFGC 2003 309.1 But people do crazy things and systems fail and people die or get hurt. That stinks but if it was a perfect world we would have no lawyers and my insurance would be nothing.
Looking at our industry we hated alot of things pex,pvc,hotwater, MODCONS, copper pipe, gal pipe, cpvc, i could fill the page.
The only thing we can do is have pride and install thing properly. The product has been tested more then anyone of us will ever test it.
The MA plumbing bourd should just follow the code and stop trying to justify there job. The plumbng inspectors should all do the same. This is all BS, maybe next week they will ban gas all together and let us explain it to the people as they hide behind there desk
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Nails through CSST
Hand nailing might push CSST aside as it penetrates the wall, but not staples shot out of a staple gun. Everyone uses staple guns around here, and the staples simply hit the pipe above the nailing plates. My customers deserve heavy duty black iron pipe. It's all I would use in my own house, and it's all I will install in my customers houses. You can take my threader, when you pry it from my cold dead hands.
Thanks, Bob Gagnon
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while we're at it
Let's outlaw soft copper for gas, hard copper for water, PEX, and any new systems that are not armor plated.
I'm sorry but if you have proper installation techniques with proper pressure testing and inspection, these piping systems do not have problems with leaks. This is more old school fear mongering BS.
BTW, when is the last time you have seen black iron in a basement properly supported that was not being used to hang clothes and anything else? I've found plenty of leaks in black iron from this. I've also found more total leaks from pros using pipe dope on ground unions than all other sources put together. I've investigated several incidents including delayed ignitions where there were injuries caused by pipe dope on flares and ground unions. Now, how are you going to regulate that? Gee, I thought we were supposed to be pressure testing and inspecting these installations.
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Staples
If gas line was hit by 14 staples it was in no way installed properly. Remember you must use tempered striker plates that extend 5" above plate. I see many installs not done correctly with the biggest problem is not using the correct nail plates.
I too must admit I like iron pipe over csst, but it does work great for running a gas line to a fireplace,second floor laundry, or attic furnace.
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?????
Hydronicians? I like it! Good word!
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copper with gas
Bob G., my point is, ALL gas lines must be pressured tested. If some nut improperly installed lines where staple guns blasted it, it will fail the pressure test. There also should be inspection of the installation.
Now, this may come as a shock but soft copper is the gas piping of choice in many areas. Most LP gas lines in the home are copper and Canada loves copper tubing for NG or LPG.
You are punishing one material for the negligence of others. Why would you want ANY gas lines in the line of fire from staple guns? Maybe those lines should have been routed through interior partitions instead of exterior walls, where they also reduce the R value.
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My brother's friend was helping him remodel his bathroom and put a finishing nail through the 1/2 copper. I was surprised to say the least.
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csst
a few years ago a plumber friend of mine was doing some charity work and reported that the residential gas lines were tygon tubing and hose clamps. try that in Ma.
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tygon was in MEXICO
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Tygon
Have seen thread reinforced high pressure Tygon (or other plasicized PVC tubing), like the stuff used for carbon dioxide tubing on commercial soda dispensing systems, used as whips from portable 20lb (about) propane cylinders/regulators to gas cooking ranges in Brazil (presumabily at 11" pressure or there abouts) -- a similar application to the black opaque hoses used on gas grills, but indoors (relatively -- the houses are much more open due to tropical climate of Belo Horizonte (a bit N of Sao Paulo). This was not *fixed* structure plumbing however.
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buried poly gas tubing
must be surrounded by crushed stone, which signals something is down there. You also should have warning tape a few inches above the tubing so you know somethings coming when your shovel/ PHD hits it.
Flexible appliance connectors are listed to ANSI Z21.24 and not the same thing as CSST. They cannot penetrate walls or floors and are limited in length to 3ft for all appliances except dryers and ranges, which can have 6'.
So, all you guys with the nail penetrations in CSST. How many of these installations were properly installed and inspected? Properly installed, you should be able to drive 16d nails through the wall and it pushes the tubing aside.
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Timmie made a funny!
I like that Timmie! You know there is much debate with mfrs. about what its going to take to sue the State over this non-elected Board, which weilds waaay too much power. Taxachoosetts has a rep. for being a very business UNfriendly place and this kind of stuff sure ain't helping. The CSST bonding issue has been debated and studied by the Code bodies, CPSC, CSA, and their associated grandmothers and uncles. In most any other case with the codes, you allow due process. Not is Mass. In the State infamous for panic legislation, they are at it again.
Read my earlier post. Why don't you hear a similar buzz about soft copper? Heck, copper has been around forever and everybody loves it, right? No problems with copper right? Wrong! Copper suffers not only from lightning blowouts but pinched/ kinked tubing, penetrations by nails and screws, electrical shorts, leaky flares, and best of all copper sulphide black dust clogging valves blowing up houses. Gee, maybe we ought to ban copper, too? Come to think of it, I've investigated a lot of incidents where the gas valve was clogged with pipe dope, Teflon tape, rust, water, and other crud with black iron piping. I guess that needs to go, too.
This hysteria was created not so much by short comings with CSST but the fact you can identify the mfr. readily even post fire so you know who to go after, unlike most copper.
There is no reason I see for Mass to take this radical step. If it was such a problem, why didn't the IFGC and NFPA 54 Cmtes. shut it down? Because the current language is what they agreed upon. Just like any other code, it may require some tweaking to get it right.
You can have the gas fitter do the actual bonding installation then pay an electrician to sign off on it. All you have to do is use an approved clamp on the first black iron fitting going into the CSST brass and bond that with #6 solid wire to a water line or other path back to ground. This does not need to be made so hard. Excess flow valves may be another route to consider, kinda like Firomatic valves on oil.
Sorry but all this hysteria in Mass makes me appreciate more and more that I don't live or work there. What a zoo!
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gas company service lines
the gas company uses anything they want , as per usual. way too flimsey for my liking.
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John CSST is not allowed there the supplies must be factory made. This is jacketed stuff for in the walls and other supply lines. Good for wholesalers not for small installers as it shifts cost from labor to material quite well.
Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
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csst
csst is for homeownners that stuff is junk.
i have all the certs for wardflex but i am too afraid that a homeowner will rfool with it when your gone. theres too many good lawyers that stuff is dangerous
hey dan are you doing christmas for those kids in new york? if so please send me one thanks
al gigli
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in 100 % agreement
bob, i could not have said it any better. a sloppy , dangerous piping method. doubt if we ever approve it in n.y.c. no one wants to work anymore is part of the problem. destroys the pipefitting tradition.
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I agree.Csst has benefits but they are outweighed by safety issues in my opinion it should be banned.
Ed
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CSST
I went to the Cont. Ed class in Sept. Burnt the CSST to death. Could have certified everyone there if they weren't already. But did not say one damn word bout bonding. I was very surprised. They allow you to install a CSST coupling in a concealed location if you have a long run, but if you have a nail puncture and it has to be repaired, you have to have an access panel at the location. Makes no sense. The repair was completed. Tested. Looks just like the coupling on the side of it. Why not allow to cover it up?
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I asked
that same question about a repair and the access panel Eric and after hemming and hawwing the answer was "we (the instructors) were told this is the way it will be".
Same with the bonding issue. If it is an unsafe material it not only should be discontinued but all past installations torn out.
We need the Board and an elected one would not solve anything as there has to be some way to keep continuity in the State-as hard as that is even with a Board. It is just hard to understand how some of these decisions are made but without some type of authority every inspector in the State would be making up their own rules. Some of whom still do that.
Now, as for politics, anyone want to discuss why we have to stop at 10 stories for PVC--LOL. Can anyone say lobbyist?
Jack
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CSST Should Be Illegal
I'm proud to say I have never used it. Natural gas is the second most dangerous piping we install, it deserves black iron. A builder I know had a job with 14 staples in it, from the finish carpenters. You could do the best install but someone comes along and puts a nail through it or cuts it with a sawzall. Think of the liability. CSST is a good example of the "Cheapening of America"- Black iron is "Old School Quality"
Thanks, Bob Gagnon
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Bob I am sad to say I have used it but soon as the shUt came alog with licenses from manfactures and such I said I will stick with the black Iron. Anyone want a deal on my left over CSST parts?
Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
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I use
it too (certified for Wardflex, Tracpipe and Gastite), trust me, it gives me anxiety when I see it run on jobs not to mfr. spec.
The bonding issue is valid, and the ammonia pinhole issue is disturbing.
For now, in CT, I'm ok with it if it's run w/ protection, bonded, and nobody uses Windex to check for leaks :)
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CSST ban...
MA state website probably hasn't been updated yet... we'll see, what happens. Don't use it on every job but it definately has it's places. Funny the CSST co. claims to have always recommend bonding. but I never remember it come up at ANY of the trainings for any brand, until after the lightning actually did the damage.
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Eric
I recieved an email this morning from the Mass PHCC thats said this is true. The e-mail claims CSST has been suspended untill the bonding issue has been resolved.
Looking at the e-mail, it has no official stamp and could be a phony. I think someone is havin fun with this.
I also checked with my local inspector who is Very Much up to date on things and he said he has gotten nothing from the State.
Still nothing on the State Boards website.
Scott
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CSST
I believe the major manufacturers all had to settle a class action lawsuit about 18 months ago. I can dig up the info once I get my laptop back. It is all related to lightning and the fact it powdered some of the enclosed stainless with a direct hit.
The remedial action was to go back and install parallel grounding or bonding. When you factor in this new cost and the exposure factor you find out that black piping once again makes the most sense.
I have heard rumors about interior plastic gas piping but have not seen anything here in Wisconsin yet. Looks like the tri=stands and threaders will make a comeback. It takes better tradesmen to use threaded systems anyway, so why not?
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N/A
December 1, 2008
@ 11:45 AM
CSST
I received this e-mail from Vinny Best from National Grid explaining what this is about the other day, here is the message
Steve Harold, member of the State Board of Plumbers/Gasfitters, just call to notify me that the use of CSST (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing) has been suspended until further notice in Massachusetts.
Jobs in progress can be completed but no new installations can take place. Steve will keep us updated.
The issue involved is the bonding required by the manufacturers of the CSST. No agreement regarding who or how this bonding is to be completed has been reached.
Vinny
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I did my Ma. Gasfitters up date class the 2d week in November and that was all he talked about. Apparently they have a bunch of sample pieces of CCST in Boston with screw and nail holes in it. I t seems they are not happy with the CCST manufacturers and have given them the opportunity to step up on some problems and they are not taking action.
At code class it seemed like the board was going to take action on this and they have apparently done so.
Ed
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I have
Hooked into gas systems that are very sound and are over 100 years old. I always check with the authorities who recommend a thorough blowing out of scale if they find the piping in good shape. Years ago we had city gas in our hometown (Ashland,WI) that was very high in moisture content. This became a corrosion problem and it shortened the life of black pipe systems with malleable fittings. The current natural gas is supposively higher in moisture content also. How many times have you taken off a dirt leg and found it full? This is a sign of corrosion. The CSST should be more resilient to rust, even though poor workmanship, bad installs and the lightning thing have taken their toll on its usage!
Rich
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understood
but what I meant if lightning strikes, what happens to underground poly pipe? I think I remember an underground gas explosion that occured a couple of years ago, after investigation, it was determined that nearby lightning strike had caused it.
I'm not sure what ANSI Z21.24 is , but if lightning strikes a house , what happens to gas flex, whether 3' long or 6'? (A chain is only as strong as it's weakess link.)
electricans bond to water mains, and nowadays mains are poly, so if you bond CSST to panel which is bonded to poly, what is really being bonded?
Should not rods be placed at roof peaks, which are driven into the ground.
And seperate but related topic, solar roof installations require ground wire also. I hope you guys who are doing them are grounding them. I think a new lineset material is exactly the same as CSST. No biggy, nothing will explode, but sure would not be pretty.
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demonizing?
If you have CSST with nails and screws in it, you have installation and inspection issues. BTW, I've found plenty of similar problems with soft copper tubing and more. You cannot use flared copper tubing buried in walls and floors the way you can CSST. If you install it properly, pressure test it and inspect it, you should have no problems.
Rich, where is this huge cost increase? Two bonding clamps and a short piece of 6 ga. solid copper, which you bake into the cost of the job?
Properly installed, nails and screws push the tubing aside instead of penetrating it. That's why they require it to flop around loose in stud cavities or else have strike protection where it must be held rigid.
How many problems have there been over the years from improperly sized and installed black iron? Lots. How often has black iron been installed with a lot of ells, which add so much flow resistance you get operational problems? Lots.
Like any product, size and install it properly and it will take care of you. BTW, what is the warranty on black iron or soft copper? Listing?
CSST is not perfect but it is a lot better than some make it out to be.
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that's just it
been down the bonding road before. Approved bonding clamps do not exist, so you need to find some black in the system downstream of the CSST. Whether or not this contitutes as an interruption of continuity (think Wardflex gaskets, et, al.), I don't know.
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My office
has confirmed that CSST has been banned by a vote of the State Board at a meeting on the 26th and it took effect on the 28th.
Our VP spoke to a Board member this morning.
Evidently it was pushed by a representative of the Gas Company to the Board.
Jack
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Another
case of R&D in the field, remember the pulse boilers of the late 70s and early 80s? Rubber push joints for plumbing above grade? The Rheem drum furnace? and now the labor saving CSST with its thin walls, expensive price and severe liability issues.
2# gas was pushed using copper in the late 80s, problems similar to CSST came up and lately I see black pipe once again used for 2# systems. Sometimes the dead men had it right!
Rich K
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This post has been deleted!
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sounds
like what the old time electricians said about Romex when it came out.
Or, what plumbers said when PVC came out.
Or, what hydronicians said when PEX....
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N/A
December 1, 2008
@ 2:54 PM
Why not make it like
the Ansul systems for commercial restaurants, gas, electric and everyone has to work together to install those systems here in RI. To many kings in MASS. and no one dares to tell them they are all naked.
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csst and the 09 code
I agree with Timmie on this. It does need to be a team effort in most states. Ted Lemoff of AGA/NFPA recently showed upcoming changes in the 09 NFPA 54 fuel gas code, 7.13 and definitions "Bonding Jumper" and "Bonding Electrode" that make the requirement specific. My company currently follows the practice and has electricians run the # 6 wire into the electrical entrance panel, so it can be bonded to the grounding electrode. We don't want pipefitters working in a live panel.
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N/A
December 1, 2008
@ 6:52 PM
Dale, the problem is that
Mass is still using the 2002 code as it takes them a long time to read the 2006 which has now been replaced by 2009. I am sure they will all catch up someday just not sure when.
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Thanks, Tim- Clarification?
When you say "bonding", are you referring to the electrical discharge grounding method or to the legal/fiduciary aspects of bonding such as for insurance purposes?
Dumb question, but I can take it!
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Hi Brad,
it has to do with the electrical grounding. It seems our Board and the Electrical Board have been bouncing this back and forth since the material was approved without coming to a resolution.
I have not heard what precipitated the dramatic action taken last week as in a class just two weeks ago we were assured things were ok with CSST.
I have a problem with saying existing permits and all previous installs, without the grounding, are ok but we can not install new permit projects until further notice.
Politics?
Jack
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Thanks, Jack!
I figured as much out of the context and comments. Politics? In Massachusetts? Nah, never. :)
But then, the board is pretty good technically. I wonder if that Steve Harold is the contractor out of the Milton/Lower Mills area? Good to have pros in the board's composition.
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Official Notice Regarding Previous Approval of CSST Gas Piping S
Effective as of December 1, 2008
The Board of State Examiner of Plumbers and Gas Fitters at its regularly scheduled meeting held on November 26, 2008, voted to temporarily rescind the approval of all Corrugated Stainless Steel Gas Piping Systems (CSST) in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts until such time as the Manufactures' recently amended bonding requirements are resolved by the appropriate Authorities Having Jurisdiction.
Gas permits issued prior to the above effective date for the installation of CSST Gas Piping Systems are NOT affected by this decision.
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probabaly
a manufacuter of steel pipe...
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Lightning has been an issue for a while
Bonding and grounding were introduce into the code in a lame Massachusetts kind of way. Totally fall between the cracks. Plumber was suppose to install an approved clamp on the tube and a licensed electrician was suppose to properly ground.
I have asked electricians, electrical inspectors and plumbing inspectors no one enforced it or did it.
The critical use for grounding was an appliance like a grill on a deck or decorative appliance attached to a metallic liner that could be easily struck.
As usual MA goes into over kill. If lightning strikes your house you got more problems than just a gas line.
They want to save lives why don't they make chimney inspections mandatory. Only two houses burned with csst from a strike. Know how many blocked flues I find with appliances that have no spill switches.
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Maybe
the Plumbing Site Webmasters are still unconscious in a turkey tryptophan-induced coma and will get to it tomorrow.
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CSST Banned in MA !!!
I Received this e-mail over the weekend. Not sure what the reason is or how true it is. Anyone know of it??
Public Notice
The Massachusetts Board of State Examiners of Plumbers and Gas Fitters have Temporary banned the use of All Types of CSST Gas Piping Material including the new Counter Strike CSST effective Friday November 28, 2008. All installers should contact their local inspector regarding any existing permits that were taken prior to Friday November 28, 2008.
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CSST ban?
Eric-
There is nothing on the state Board website- that is usually the first place they post anything like that. I am also an assistant inspector and haven't heard anything like that in our continuing ed stuff...I doubt this is legit.
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interesting
I want to know what is behind that.
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I suspect.....
it is lightning. Turns it into swiss cheese.
As soon as someone gets a lightning detector that that senses lightning and shUts off the gas, they'll allow it back on the market. Like an E.F.E. (Excess Flow Eliminator) but better.
Pure speculation on my part.
ME
It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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