Heating Help

Pumping you up

Checked the Taco Installation PDF files. It does not say it is ok to mount any of their pumps at a 45 degree. I would think if you could do that Taco would have put it in there installation instructions. Just a thought. Page 5 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-359.pdf Page 1 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-232.pdf Page 1 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-226.pdf Page 2 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-147.pdf What I do know is that calling the manufacture with questions that sometimes their word is not gospel. Sometimes they aren't sure but they won't tell you that. They will guess. And what do they care. 3 years from now if the pump burns out because of the way it was mounted do you think you're going to remember the persons name or do your think the sales rep is going to say, " OOps! I did tell you that here let me replace all those pump for free." HELL NO!!! Scary

Pumping you up

Checked the Taco Installation PDF files. It does not say it is ok to mount any of their pumps at a 45 degree. I would think if you could do that Taco would have put it in there installation instructions. Just a thought. Page 5 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-359.pdf Page 1 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-232.pdf Page 1 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-226.pdf Page 2 http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-147.pdf What I do know is that calling the manufacture with questions that sometimes their word is not gospel. Sometimes they aren't sure but they won't tell you that. They will guess. And what do they care. 3 years from now if the pump burns out because of the way it was mounted do you think you're going to remember the persons name or do your think the sales rep is going to say, " OOps! I did tell you that here let me replace all those pump for free." HELL NO!!! Scary

Has this been bothering you, Todd? I'm pretty ok with it and evidently so is the President of Taco and the Technical Support department. It's really not that "scary" at all. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

What's scary is the excessive timeTacoma Todd has on

his hands to nitpick legit and honorable contractors. Hey Todd....I have an idea.......SHUT US ALL UP: Post some pictures of all the fine and varied work you have done over the years either as an installer and/or contractor. Until YOU present us with that and endure OUR scrutiny...YOUR 'opinion means nuthin' (As John Cougar Mellencamp sang). We're waiting TODD......Mad Dog To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

I nominate this as post of the year!

Never has a post been scrutinized like this. JohnNY laugh all the way to the bank brother! Maybe the pumps are oversized, maybe too many, Wilo could have taken care of this easier, too many radiant zones, maybe the pumps are in the incorrect position but MAN YOU GOT PAID!!!!!!!

Ball Busters

Hey John we may have our diffences and every one can argue that this or that ain,t right ,either way you did the job not every one has the same methods but the main thing is you did the work as speced ,you kept your crews working while the ecomony is dead and completed the job as it was proposed.What the hell all these complaining people probalbly could not even get the chance to bid on a job that size ,myself included.Hats off to you for getting the work ,getting it done ,keeping your guys working .To all who with there complaining have kept this post going get a life and give the guy a break your probalby all jeolous that you have never had a chance to bid a job that big and if you have never done speced work from a ME or tryed to change a ME design you would find yourself looking for some thing else for your crews to do.They design we just install as they say there the one with letters at the end of there names not us.Try changing the mind of a ME for any military sub contractors facilities you will probalbly be sitting st the curb wondering what happened.Again john you and i have had differences in the past and we still may not see eye to eye but damn can't you guys give the dude some credit i do .Great job and it's done every bodies happy but some people can't let anything rest ,i do peace and good luck clammy

This get's my vote for Post of the year

It was fun, educational, emotional and got everybody talking! I'm sure JohnNY laughed all the way to the bank! Nice job! Fantastic pictures!

Heather please read the whole post. If you scroll down a few lines you will understand the handle.

Also perhaps the training you are pffering is not what suits the clients you are trying to reach? Many of us read a lot in our spare time as well as greatly appreciate well written I&O's.

What do I win?

Anything? To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

nice

nice job on the install

Remember this thread?

An oldie but a goodie...

Dan, please feel free to bury this if this is trolling....'cause it is.

So...

So, has the nay saying, cavitation cautions, pressure problem prognostications, pump positioning pandering and your heretical hewing to "Green" produced any of the Pandora predicted by the "pumpigensia"?

Disclosure: I had a small part to play in resolving some control issues that were not in John's scope of work, were the responsibility of another contractor, but had a major impact on the proper operation of the hydronics. My recollection is that, outside of the boiler noise, more noise was generated by the other mechanical systems (i.e. the hydraulic pump for the elevator) than the circulators or "all the cavitation"...

Alex (Wire Nut)...

I'm bringing this back up because my father wants to see it. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

I'm finally responding

All of this "hot air armchair analysis" means squat. NOBODY picked up on your statement of FACT that this hydronic heating system IS a very expensive "back-up". So, the question becomes; What is the probability risk of this system being employed? You didn't say it was supplemental, but back-up. Being that it is a back-up system, what are the conditions required to bring this system on-line and for how long? What are the emitters for this system, hi-head fan coil units. I don't recall you mentioning what radiation these circs are servicing. Your work is obviously great, but this "back-up" issue has me stumped. What is the anticipated run time of this system? Jed

MORE PICS FROM EVIL PUMP JOB

Pressurizing with air to check for leaks. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Many pump job

John: Since you are the only one that knows the history and the details of this job, I'm curious to know how many pumps and/or zone valves you would have used if you had designed this job. Over 5000 square feet for three people! Such waste. Rollie Peck Homeowner

NPSH

Cavitation will be the issue that will just never go away. Net Positive Suction Head. Shame on Taco if they were involved.

Job was well done and yet another debate over engineer ideals and actual real world engineering. I am sure if John had more say in the design the engineer would have made less money as it would not have looked as impressive. As far as pump orientation goes it is in the installation instructions as being OK. You know the paper that Taco puts in each box is not packing material. Cavitation is only going to be an issue if the pumps are all on at once, and they have room to pump away full flow.

Cavitation

Cavitation will result from a 30 gpm circ running on a 3/4" piece of pipe doing 2 to 4 gpm serving a little zone of radiant floor. And in a header application you are pumping away from nothing. Hope the static fill pressure is up there as high as possible.

Its VERY easy to knock John from the Stadium seats.........

John, like many of us here is "IN THE ARENA" ...in The GREATEST City in the world too! Go get another bag o' peanuts guys...You done good John! That which does not kill us....(including these ninnys) makes us stronger. Mad Dog To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Workmanship

JohnNY, When you post photos of your work here, you will never please everyone. There are always the negative types who take pot shots at your work. It is funny how they never post photos of their work..... Keep up the great work. I know the pressure of having to make payroll for 18 people every Friday. Your employees are relying on you to make the tough calls that affect everyone in your company. Keep your chin high - you have much to be proud of! - DF To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

I think you could agree

a setup like that is the exception to the rule ? If it was heating only , like on the job that John showcased , how many hours would your circs run ? Figuring warm weather shutdown times , of course .

No question

the workmanship, planning and installation is first class. The installers should get a raise, at least a dinner. It's nice to see the big smile on a job well done. If John explained his case regarding the wall o pumps, and the engineer made the call for the GC and owner, so be it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't always make him drink ;) The engineer may not be aware of delta p pumping, or perhaps not comfortable with the concept? The point for me is not the electrical consumption, which if it is controlled with outdoor reset control could be pretty much constant pump operation when temperatures drop below 68F. The bigger issue the engineer may not realize is the amount of work accomplished for the energy consumed. On a good day mid to high 20% efficiencies for wet rotor circs (wire to water) If some circs are running way off curve they may be turning 10% or less of the electrical energy into fluid movement. That's where it starts to look silly. At the end of the day, I'm sure the building will be comfortable, and a show case for "Americanized hydronics" the engineer will smile, knowing this. hr

Question

Let's say you've done your homework, all your pumps are sized correctly and run intermittently as the heat load requires. How would the breaking down of the electrical load into small pumps compare in usage to a single pump with zone valves set on delta P? Wouldn't it be somewhat comparable? BTW, I see Johnny used the new Taco wireless pumps. Sweet! ;)

NO GUTS NO GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU Armchair Quarter backs REALLY make me laugh. You remind me of the so called football experts...you know the guys that know it all....know every stat including what size jock Namath wore in the '69 Superbowl....what kind of razor the barber used to get Johnny U's Flat top just so....yeah you know the type....they are at EVERY bar and every Superbowl party... These same "experts" after a little questioning stopped playing football after they broke a collar bone in the 7th grade....or better yet NEVER even played.....'uh well....we used to play in the street.' Most of You'll hide behind pseudonyms OR NEVER seem to show us here at The Wall YOUR!!!!!!! work. Constructive criticism THIS IS NOT....you are lambasting a really good man with a great company....Gateway's in the Big Leagues Boys...NYC...getting the nice jobs and contracts...what are YOU doing? Lets see YOUR work for CRITIQUE!!!!!! We ALL have alot to learn and on each job we aim higher. Some of the effite, elitist heating snobs here will have us think that ALL their work is Magazine-quality...they only do....(fill in the blanks), or This or that product. That's bull. I, and I'm sure Johnny NY have no problem with Legit critcism from a legit source: Real name, real email, and someone who HAS and CAN do better, i.e., SHOW US SOME PICS......NOW!!!!! I can't WAIT To see what you can come up with. Mad Dog To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Thanks, Tim

Yeah, we actually had countless conversations and several site meetings about this job. It's not a small amount of money at stake so every single detail of the job was scrutinized a hundred times. Believe me. No one has to tell me how to protect myself through a contract. I'm well aware of the process. Sometimes the job is the job. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

John, I am sure you are better than I in these contract issues

I just wanted to say what you probably already knew. Again, looks like a great job and yes we all do need to keep our guy's busy and that's a great one for that. Tim

6 Gallon Electric water heater

JohnNY I talked to an engineer friend of mine and he and I both concur that you should have the electrician wire the elements to come on simultaneously. Also it would be really cool to use one of those extension cords that that have lights built into the ends.

C'mon, Rick ...

Don't you think on a project like this we've already thought of extension cords with lights on the ends???? Like no duh. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

No some other Rick

I have stayed out of this. but thanks for asking. I work for a manufacturer now and it's not pumps...

Means and Methods (for Paul Pollets)

Hi Paul- Engineers, at least in our practice avoid specifying means and methods. That is a form of micro-management, telling someone how to hold their wrench and hovering over their shoulders. There is greater liability in our meddling at that level. "The engineer told me to turn on that unit at that time.. I did not know the site super had his hand reaching through the fan blades at the time..." Rather we specify products, materials and systems. Any references to means and methods are usually as vague as "according to best trade practices" or we stipulate a standard such as ASME. We might be specific about certain pipe sealants or just to assure compatibility with the fluids carried. Things like that. The basic presumption is that the contractor knows how to best do their jobs. I agree with you, 100%, that any errors or omissions should be brought to the attention of the project manager for resolution. Believe me, I have seen some outrageous designs and have been called on to troubleshoot more than my share. I too have made perfectly bone-headed blunders, let me be clear. Some engineers get really defensive when told that they screwed up, especially by someone in the trades. (I guess anyone would, but it depends how they are told.) I find this defensiveness unfortunate because it is resistant to learning. I say to them, "get over it!" You don't walk on water -especially moving as it does with all of those pumps." :) Your notification of potential errors is due diligence and as intelligent beings, that is the standard to which we all should hold ourselves. Keep doing what you are doing, Paul. I am glad of it.

I might be schizophrenic?

Wow

No.......................

................I'm schizophrenic. (The only way I could spell it was copying from your post)

Be nice

elite guy. be nice

Hey Home Depot Employee.

I don't come into the big orange box on nights, weekends and holidays and hassle you while you are counting roofing nails. Why you gotta bother a hard working guy with an actual career, jealous? I can certainly understand why. After all, who wouldn't want a full time job. Stop being a part time loser on a full time basis!

Most pros here know my Home Depot name is a joke, I didn't expect you to get it.

Doesn't make you any less

of a douche. You probably are unemployed, douche

exactamundo.

How many times have we've seen "boilerplate" specs in the bid that make you say "whaaaaa???" One of my favorites has to be "condensate drain lines shall be copper, insulated with minimum of 1/2" approved pipe isulation" (A/C). Seriously? Gently point out some of the more insane items that just don't fit for the type of job, CYA with something to the effect of workmanship will be top notch, design by others. If mechanical spec was provided, it has to be followed or else a second party has to be compensated for refinements. Rich, couldn't have said it better.

Too funny Bob,

I just had to send a guy back to insulate (1/2") the copper drain line (spec'ed) off a mini split we installed a month ago. The engineer noted it on his punch list! HA! :)

LOL!!!

Did you "braze" all joints in an approved manner? I wish every engineer could be Brad White. All would be right in the world. :)

Best Thread Ever

JohnNY Thanks for going out on a limb and posting your pictures here. Also, you have a great sense of humor. This has been one of the most entertaining threads I have read on the Wall for a long time. And, I also want to say that you have a great website with some sweet pictures of the work you have done in the past. Don't let the bonehead guys that have been post negative stuff get to you.

Thanks, Rick.

I appreciate your support. The most disturbing post in this thread is derhestmeister saying he "would have Turned the job down" if he had to install it like this. I know he's serious. That's rich. I'll just tell my guys I had a half-million dollar job on the table that would've kept 3-4 guys working for 8 months, but I let it go and they can go home because I'm standing on principle about the pumping configuration. That way I could feel good about myself. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Nice work!

John, Glad you didn't let the Boneheads get to you. I see a well laid out, professional job. Solder joints are beautiful! Your mechanics do nice clean work. Most of the critics here are hiding behind dummy email addresses. Very Brave. Please don't let them dissuade you from posting future job pics. Nice work, Jim

pumps

If I could get a job like that right now I would put in 37 of these (see picture below)if they told me to. Especially if I had that many people who's mortgage payment depended on me getting work in this economy. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Yes

We do what we have to do. I like to think that the $ from the outrageous and ridiculous mcmansions allow me to give my other regular customers a decent job at a reduced rate. Always thought a good name for my shop might have been RH Plumbing & Heating. (Robin Hood Plumbing & Heating)

John, as someone else said, thanks for going out on a limb

and posting the great looking work. I know you probably thought about it ahead of time that there would be flack about the "slightly" over pumped system but hey, you still posted it and hopefully you don't feel to overwhelmed with the fall out. I will say, I would not have turned down the job but, I mean but I would have made sure there was documented communication about the questionable oversizing of pumps. The problem with spec'd out jobs is that there is a little blurb in the design docs that say's all designs to be field verfied and if discrepancies are found, they are to be brought up to designer for review. Well, that little email I would send them would require a reply and I would have done my job and he would have to respond and if he said no do it that way, it's all on him now. All can be polite but no gray area then. No questions. If you do not document then they can put it backi on you. Tim

For Brad...Huh?

How does an engineer provide mechanical plans showing piping details,pipe sizes, pump size and location by "being vague"? "According to best trade practices" would put more of the onus on the installing contractor. Every drawing I've seen shows the details and appurtances required. Whether they're correct or not is the Big Question. I understand the defense mechanisms of engineers' who have screwed up. The correct piping and pumping strategies for any system have been widely available for at least 15 years. It says something about standards and education. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul, the

drawings, depending on the level of service, are usually diagrammatic but of course everything has to work and fit. That is not where the "vague" terminology applies, no sir! The "means and methods" part goes to the specifications part of a design package and specifically the execution. That is where we tread lightly and defer to manufacturer's recommendations and to best trade practices. Yes, it does put the onus on the installing contractor, for that is what installing contractors do, (last I checked :) ). Details.. Ah, hit a spot with me. A certain engineering firm I know has details, mind you standard details which show up on nearly every job, that are both conflicting or just wrong. One I love is a condensate pump with the check valves and flow arrows on the check valves, pointing back toward the pump.... My in-house job (each shareholder has one in addition to normal duties) is to maintain and develop details and if I have my way, the specifications. I also do in-house training but finding time is the issue there...

What size boiler(s) are on this job

How many btus?

No boiler.

We're using a 6-gallon electric water heater and an extension cord. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

6 gallons? Sheesh man, is this the taj mahal????? scale it down!!!!

Don't need a boiler

The heat from the CIRCULATORS will be sufficient to heat the house! Sincerely, The Energy Star Program

What size boiler(s) are on this job

How many btus?

Pump Angle

If these circ pumps will work with the motors in the verticle position above the impellers AND they work in the way they are mounted in most situations (with the motor in the horizontal postion) THEN any thinking person could conclude that these pumps you have mounted on this job will be fine. JohnNY, don't sweat all the BS from the many negative comments from those that are posting here. They are just jealous because you have had the opportunity to do such a great project. Those pumps look great and will work fine.

Installation Bullet #1 "Circulator motor must be mounted in horizontal position, It may......." Entrained air will sit in the domes, even if pressures in the system get to 20 PSI + after operation time, the circs cartridges will run with encapsulated air until pressure rises. http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-054.pdf

Entrained Air

Home Depot Dude- Maybe you should check between your ears. You might have some entrained air there. Try standing on your head.

Rick, what was that for? Are you the supply guy that sold the circs? Entrainment (engineering)- The entrapment of gas bubbles or solid particulates in a flowing liquid, as with aeration. Sorry I wrote above your comprehension level.

About the pump angle....

I just spoke to tech support at Taco. They said there is "No issue." with installing the pumps this way. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

YES!

Just as I thought. You will now start a trend that will take over the entire hydronics world. No more boring pumps just sitting there in a "horizontal" orientation. These guys look like they are locked and loaded and ready for anything.

Please don't confuse that Rick with me

I haven't posted on this thread... Rick

Understood Rick after posting and scrolling down. I was wondering what came over you, originally thought CO poisoning

Confusion

Please don't confuse me with the other Rick. Not sure how you wouldn't be confused, since we both say our name is Rick. Just so you know....I am the real Rick. The other Rick must be an imposter.

JohnNY what were you thinking?

You are getting defensive when you had to know this would happen. The pumps are grossly over-sized, there's 37 zones of radiant in a 4000 sq/ft house. You stated "efficiency wasn't the goal here" The pumps are mounted incorrectly, they are going to roar when the system is operational, the pumps will probably burn up from dead heading. One Wilo ECO from Patriot Supply (not too far from you) and zone valves would do the job. Did they build a 1200 sq/ft closet for the manifolds? Your Delta T will maybe one degree. And most of all please post that picture of the inside wall that has 37 freaking thermostats mounted on it. This is just horrible. A fellow New Yorker, we should know better.

It's actually over 6,000 square feet.

Somebody tell me the problem with how the pumps are mounted. Nobody here has ANY IDEA what's going on outside of the boiler room in these pictures yet everyone wants to tell me about my DeltaT and that my pumps are "grossly oversized". Why would the pumps dead head? Anyway...I'll say it again...it's not my design. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

You guys need to get over yourselves.

Seriously, a Bronx cheer to all you negative people. This post is about workmanship and I'm happy with what I'm showing. (why can't I get this post to go to the bottom?) To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

edit

deleted To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Cool

Nice work, I know what you mean about doing what you can to keep operating and payroll. Q: Some of the larger pumps (0011)? Look like 3/4" piping? To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

When the system is filled and running

Those oversized monsters are going to howl like a freight train and you will be called back to job becasue of excessive noise. AHHhh the gentle click of a energy efficient zone valve and the whisper quiet WILO ECO. You can almost not hear it from here. Once in a while you have to stand up and help with design. The way the pumps are installed, the number and size of the pumps is just gross. Shame on you and shame on Johnny White for patting you on the back. It's all about money

Call backs....

If that's what the engineers want, that's what they'll get. If it all needs to be redone due to noise (which I suspect it will too, unles the supply runs are real small and real long), there's a bunch more work for our buddy. Boilerpro To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

400 gpm

I can't imagine how anyone could have came up with a pumping requirement of that magnitude? If those circs are running in a mid range condition we would have to be in the 400 gpm range? Cavitation here we come.

John

I know you "get it". Some of the guys don't understand how it is to be bound to mech spec in terms of bidding and actual execution. Like you said, you have fight for common sense sometimes, but diplomacy enters the mix too. You know there can be a better way, but there's a point where you say "the mech engineer got paid to write this stuff, the onus is on HIM if it's wrong". You're blessed to have landed a job like this, and I know you guys will make the most of it! Pretty mind boggling...that's 44 circulator gaskets, 88 circ bolts to tighten..nice job!

John, I too understand that you were under the knife with

engineers doing the design. You do have to be political and you cannot embarass the engineer or you pay some consequences that are not long term healthful for your company. But what a shame they feel that "bigger is better" I think it's called large pump syndrome.

Johnny WHITE has GOTTA love THAT baby!!!!

Mad Dog To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Plumbing

Yes we did the plumbing and sprinkler piping, too, Dan C. The house used to be a hospital, but is being renovated for a single family of 3. For what it's worth, I'm told the building cost 18 million dollars and the renovation is costing 13 million. The recession affects people in different ways I guess. I've never met the owners and probably never will. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Cool. Nice job. How many sq feet? To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

We thought of that, Jack.

And then we stopped thinking about it. Our pressure is going to be up around 18psi anyway, but I'll put a call in to Taco to see what they say. Good catch. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Amazing work

I wouldn't let the anonymous cowardly douches get under your skin . Be proud of this project . I definitely would .

Thanks, Ron.

From you, that means a lot. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

JohnNY What a beautiful job!!!! Love the color!!! Johnny

Glad you like it, Johnny.

It's good to hear from you! To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Can you say Wilo?

Hard to make room.

But somebody's got to do it. Might as well be this guy who actually reads installation manuals: (his name is Tommy, job foreman for Gateway Plumbing & Heating) To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

you a VERY sick man...Johnny NY

Thats FREAKIN AWESOME!!!!!! DYNOMITE. Mad Dog To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Sweet job!

One question on pump orientation, I know when mounted motor vertical up Taco requires 20 lbs. pressure, do they want the same at that angle?

YOUR AN ANIMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mad Dog To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Hey JohnNY

WOW! Leo G

Great thread

I am mostly a lurker here, but post occasionally. This thread certainly has brought out the "Rainbow" of comments (no sexual orientation offenses intended). At great personal risk, I confess to being of the engineer persuasion, albeit without the "P"rince "E"gghead after my name. I learned pipe fitting long before I learned about Boyle's Law. There are a lot of flavors of engineers, and most that I respect learn as much as they prea . . . I mean teach. The pump angle? Feh. They're fine. Right between the "normal" orientation and the "allowed" orientation (does that make them biangular?). Anyway, from an ME point of view, the thrust loading should be near neutral with the stated system pressure. Then again, my opinion on this is as relevant as Britney Spears'. My only "advice" for JohnNY is with respect to the changes he convinced the original PE were necessary. Document them with ECOs to CYA. I have worked in the forensic engineering field for over 20 years, and a LACK of documentation is often far more damaging than an abundance of it. If there are problems with the system later on, and fingers start to get pointed, any changes from the original design will be YOUR changes, regardless of what the original designer agreed to, unless you can prove that he/she concurred with the changes. I hope you use a yellow extension cord - LOL (loved that). Jim K

copper

the supply house must have liked you when you picked up all that copper

johnny W.....I wonder why $$$$$????

I didn't size anything, Cy.

The pumps are from page M11 of the mechanicals. And I don't have a deltaT yet because there's no water in the system. Thanks for your help, though. It's especially valuable to me considering you have no idea what the job conditions are. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Typo ?

Maybe there's a typo ? Is the building really only 4000 sq ft ? 4000 divided by 22 = 182. At 6" spacing that would be 44 loops at 182 ft each. I believe that's where the question of your circ sizing comes in. That angle is the real issue. "Its in the book" ;)

Sq. Ft.

It's about (edit)6,000 sq.ft. Very big by NYC standards. The house includes a two-car elevator and a large interior courtyard. I'll post some other pics when I can. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

What's your DeltaT and DeltaP

Those pumps seem perversely over sized. How did you size your pumps? This is a real serious question given it's a 4000 sq/ft house with 37 zones of radiant. That's 37 loops of 108 freaking feet in length. Think about that. Some quick math: 25 pumps. Avg. power draw = 130 watts per pump. 5000 hours run time per pump. (Typical winter) 25 x 130 = 3250 watts per hour. 5000 x 3250 = 16,250,000 watts 16,250,000/1000 = 16,250 Kw $0.22 per Kw x 16,250 = $3575.00 in electricity JUST for those pumps. Good thing they got efficient boilers eh? Unbelievable.

John, I was just going to say what above said, Why so large

of pumps????? You could have done that job with a largish cartridge pump and vfd drive if you could not get a Wilo. "Sorry Mr. White" and then done zone valves. Just wunderin. Looks great although. Don't me to sound critical just inquizitive by nature. Tim

The Lawyers will have a field day with this!

"Your honor, I had no idea the entire Con Ed midtown grid would collapse when all those pumps fired up..." Or: "The 200 dB noise in the system when two or more clicked on made how many people deaf"?

With Cy on this one!

Think "green" ,Think Wilo... Also as you mentioned if Wilo is not avail in you area Grundfos has the Alpha! Inpressive mech room layout but do not like the angle on the circs for many reasons i.e. "Burning out" Circs. In Germany we call systems like this Pumpaholics!

I get it about the 22 pumps.

Point taken, guys, believe me. It was supposed to be 37 pumps. I got it down to 22 and it was not a small fight to get it there. Once again, not my idea, but I'll take the check. What makes you think I'll be "Burning out" circs? To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

\"A man convinced agains his will,is of the same opinion still\"

Auguring with you will only make you "hate me" Time will tell and the maintenance/energy waste will be a very big factor in this equation! Personally if i was approached by some "Mechanical Engineer" that spec's this i would have tried to explain why not to do this (IN WRITING with the flow rates and a zone report/ heat loss) if he did not change this i would have been "Stubborn" and would have Turned the job down by :Thank's but no thanks!again not verbal and CC to all that are involved!!! If you do not want to Argue with the "Mechanical Engineer" i bet that someone from Wilo/Grundfoss can do the Calc's and the "Talk" next time and help "Educate" the "Engineer" (Sorry that Taco do not have this Technology yet. but i hear that they just added Innovex to the Equation which is very good ) Just remember that even the people and especially the people that have this kind of money did not get were they are by being "wasteful" The "green wave" is finally here and it is time to get on that wave and ride it! Sorry, for the criticism, NO bad ill intended..Richard :-]

Bid and Spec work

I do plenty of bid and spec work for engineers. It seems like a lot of them around here are stuck on the same equipment they used 20 years ago. I politely suggest what I believe to be a better way to do it and try to have documentation in hand when doing so. I've yet to have one take my suggestions. They have the initials behind their name and I don't. I can deal with that. I don't make demands. I'm already on the job because they know I try hard to make it work the way they designed it. It's their job to design it and if things don't do what they say, I'll be back to fix it, at additional expense (read change order). It's still good work, it still makes the paychecks good, and it still makes a profit for the company. If I were to cast my judgement and walk away from it another mechanical contractor would be happy to jump in my place and do the work. It would be nice to see a more efficient system going in here but I completely side with JohnNY on this. Try to educate the customer, do it his way, accept the payments as they come in.

5000 hour runtime ? Typical year ?

Where's that ? On Pluto ? 5000 hours is 209 days . Running 24 hours for each of those 209 days . And we all know it's a proven fact all circs run contantly all day long . Temps are never satisfied indoors , even on the mild winter days :) Tell us where a circ runs constantly for 209 days a year in North America , CY . It certainly isn't in NYC .

circ run time

Hi Ron jr. I have a site with 27 buildings with 12 apartments each, with Taco 1600 circulators that run 24-7 365 days a year. These are fan coil units, specifically two pipe Whalen units that constantly run hot water through the loops from September 15 to June 15, then run chilled water through the loops during the summer.

Over the top...

3 people? Good for you getting the job but that is crazy....how many sq. feet?

T-Drill

Beauty of a job,I suggest a T-drill for the next one! Steve

I'd love a T-drill.

But aren't those things like 6 grand? To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Hey, Brad.

We've got 3 water temperatures with three VSP mixing stations feeding 24 pumps supplying 37 zones at manifolds with a few zoning thermal actuators in the mix. (deep breath) This manifold shows no actuators but you'll get the idea. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

...that lived in the house that Jack built...

Deep breath indeed! Looks like a factory warehouse building of sorts. Garment district? Nice that they sprung for the radiant way. I like the tags you use, good marketing and identification.

Pumps

At that angle, those Taco pumps look like they are ready to be launched into space. It looks very cool. Haven't seen that done before. Was it done for any specific reason?

Holy overcirc Batman Less pumps then the PE desired? This will be the engineers last radiant job no doubt Johnny will be seeing those circs twice, first in pictures, second back at manufacturer as "warranty claims"

Home depot employee

No offense...seriously... but if you are, in fact, a home depot employee I would really like to know what training is offered or that you have taken part in regarding this system or systems similar to this. I sell to wholesalers all DAY and I can tell you that the vast majority either have not or WILL not take part in any kind of product/system training, whether it's free or not... Again, I mean no disrespect...but this post seemed a bit out of sorts given the purported author..

more diplomatically, if you install something, even if it's to spec, and it's wrong... can it come back on you as the installer? I think up here in Maine the line is kind of fuzzy and there is some expectation on the installer to also do "due diligence" but I'm not clear on the details. I will second the fact that most engineers seem to think that pump sizing stops at 1 HP and that if 10 GPM is good, 20 is better. I won't fault anyone for not pooping where they eat, but it's hard, hard, hard to keep a still tongue with some of the stuff out there with PE stamps on them.

Ayuh.

As I have often said, I have learned a lot more from the folks holding wrenches than the people along side me holding pencils. But when push comes to shove, if it is a design issue, the engineer is responsible. If it is under-par technical installation but conforms to the documents, the contractor is responsible. (The engineer cannot tighten the bolts after all, nor dictate means and methods.) That is a fuzzy area, aka, "due diligence", that is a catch-all standard that can be used to widen the net pending litigation. The "standard of care" is not one of perfection which does not exist. But "due diligence" implies that everyone has some skin in the game and so get dragged along.

What size boiler(s) are on this job

Just curious?

Empire State Charlie

You're really someone else posting anonymously I see. Why is that? To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Brad---But...

The engineer is dictating the "means and the method". Unfortunately for the building, the system design is not correct. When I've worked on mechanicals designed by an engineering firm and notice piping errors, I advise the engineer and the GC of the corrections required. I've never been told not to make the corrections. I was recently hired to fix the engineered boiler design of a large facility where in each of seven buildings there were serious errors. The biggest error was the circ pumps were oversized by 400-600%. The engineering firm also made the same mistakes in the design and specifcations of the current (2) buildings we're doing. I can assure you they won't be hired again. BTW, this is a national engineering firm. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Beat the dead horse

It is really to bad that all you guys have nothing better to do then to beat a dead horse, two or three posts about the pumps would be "green" but more then five seems to be "overpumping" like JohnNy stated, NOT HIS DESIGN, HE JUST DID WHAT HE NEEDED TO TO TAKE CARE OF HIS PAYROLL, and for somebody to state they would not take this job because of the overpump issue "BS" money talks and bs walks. Times being what they are GOOD FOR YOU JONH for taking care of your guys and doing what you can to make sure all us tax payers do not have to support any more people, why dont you guys "BITCH" about the fact that only three people will live in this house instead of homeless parents and children having a shelter that it "SHOULD HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO" GOD BLESS AMERICA

Please tell me that's not a house!

That's a house.

Three people will live there...and none of them is Johnny White. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

i think they just started it up......my lights just dimmed. nice work. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Wow!!

Is there a reason for so many pumps? Is it a 50,000 + SF building? Tilting the motor shaft on the pumps 45 degrees is a no-no. The pipefitting is excellent, but I'd seriously question the system design and pumping strategy. Seems to be a prime example of "overpumping"... To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

What is the problem with tilting the pump motor?

The book says it can be vertical if the system pressure is 20psi. I'm going to be very close to that here and I'm not vertical. Once again, it's not my place or intention to defend the design. The workmanship is mine. If there's a problem in execution, let me know what it is. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Shaft Orientation of Wet Rotor Pumps

Fellow Wallies, I have been following this post with great interest. Regarding the orientation of the shaft of a wet rotor circulator, here’s the deal… All of us wet rotor manufacturers require the motor shaft to be horizontal under normal instances – the reason being if installed vertically up air that is in all H20 accumulates up to the outboard sleeve bearing (bearing farthest away from the impeller). Taco states in their I/O vertical is ok if the system pressure is 20 PSI or higher (and we at WILO make a wet rotor vertical multi-stage booster – repeat vertical). The reason vertical is OK is the higher pressure forces the air back into suspension (I sold Taco for 8 years back in the 70’s). I quote the Taco I/O manual 001-934 “Circulator must be mounted with the motor in a horizontal position. It may be mounted vertically with the motor up, provided that the system pressure is at least 20 psi (138 kPa).” Will a below 20 PSI vertical installation reduce the life of a wet rotor pump? Depends (always a depends). The less air there is in the system, lower system and motor temps, less fresh make up water, higher inlet pressure, pump location etc the lower the risk of a vertically mounted circ failure (see explanation above). Will a 45 deg installation cause premature failures? Doubtful, but (there is always one of those too) if any wet rotor circs have outboard bearing failures installed at 45 deg that would be the first thing I would consider as the cause of the failure (especially if re-occurring). But if it ain't broke, don't fix it (if they don't fail in a few months all should be OK). Regarding the project – the workmanship is fantastic.

Shaft Orientation of Wet Rotor Pumps

Fellow Wallies, I have been following this post with great interest. Regarding the orientation of the shaft of a wet rotor circulator, here’s the deal… All of us wet rotor manufacturers require the motor shaft to be horizontal under normal instances – the reason being if installed vertically up any air that is in all H20 accumulates up to the outboard sleeve bearing (bearing farthest away from the impeller). Taco states in their I/O vertical is ok if the system pressure is 20 PSI or higher (and we at WILO make a wet rotor vertical multi-stage booster – repeat vertical). The reason vertical is OK is the higher pressure forces the air back into suspension (I sold Taco for 8 years back in the 70’s). I quote the Taco I/O manual 001-934 “Circulator must be mounted with the motor in a horizontal position. It may be mounted vertically with the motor up, provided that the system pressure is at least 20 psi (138 kPa).” Will a below 20 PSI vertical installation reduce the life of a wet rotor pump? Depends (always a depends). The less air there is in the system, lower system and motor temps, less fresh make up water, higher inlet pressure, pump location etc the lower the risk of a vertically mounted circ failure (see explanation above). Will a 45 deg installation cause premature failures? Doubtful, but (there is always one of those too) if any wet rotor circs have outboard bearing failures installed at 45 deg that would be the first thing I would consider as the cause of the failure (especially if re-occurring). But if it ain't broke, don't fix it (if they don't fail in a few months all should be OK). Regarding the project – the workmanship is fantastic.

Very nice

work. Please tell us it is not Bernie Maddof's retirement home? Jack

Nice

Makes me want to be a pipe fitter when I grow up. Jack: ROFLMAO

Whatever, dude.

I got paid a lot of money to do this job and I made several effective improvements to the engineer's original plans. It is well installed. Efficiency wasn't the goal here. Sometimes you just gotta take the money so you can pay 20 salaries instead of sending people home. You really wanna lose your mind? This is a secondary system to the forced air that's primary to heating the house. (is this post in the right place?) To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

I get

take the money and pipe fitting. Secondary to the forced air? ^^^ throws away his tin tools.

How big is this house? It looks like 5 or 6" sewer line coming in. Did you do the plumbing also?

HaHa

I can say Wilo all day long but it won't make it appear. Wilo is not well distributed in my area unfortunately. My installers felt the angle of the pumps bought them some room. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Up angle

very manly install if you catch my lift :) Any potential issues with air binding? Certainly better than a down-angle which would collect particulates at least. It is amazing what a little up angle can do to make the space look clear. Really nice job.. How many different temperatures? Is it entirely circulator control at the zone level?