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    Hartford loop question (34 Posts)

  • acl10 acl10 @ 3:08 PM
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    Hartford loop question

    Can someone please take a look  at these pictures and tell me if you think the Hartford loop is wrong. The boiler is always full of water and the glass is full. The boiler sends water up the pipes. Also the header is only 2 inches do you think it should be changed to a 3 inch.
     
    Boiler model Enerjet continues gas steam boiler 262-500btu 214-000 btu
    E.T.82
    This post was edited by an admin on April 23, 2010 1:59 AM.
  • Can't really

    see enough.  I'd like to see the main riser coming out of the boiler to the steam main.  I'd also like to see if there's an equalizer back down to the Hartford Loop; it seems as though yes, but need to see the whole picture.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • JStar JStar @ 5:47 AM
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    It seems.

    The loop, the header and the equalizer are piped wrong. The equalizer is going right into the wet return. You don't actually have a Hartford loop, just some inverted trap piping. You don't have a header either.

    Does the automatic water feeder work?
    - Joe Starosielec
    732-494-4357
    j.star@thatcherhvac.com
    http://thatcherhvac
    http://facebook.com/thatcherhvac


    Guaranteed performance. Guaranteed energy savings.

    Serving all of NJ, NYC, Southern NY State, and eastern PA.
    Consultation anywhere.
    (Formerly "ecuacool")
    This post was edited by an admin on April 23, 2010 5:49 AM.
  • acl10 acl10 @ 10:03 AM
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    Water feeder

    The water feeder works. The pipe does go into the return line. It was like this when I bought the house. I am trying to figure out the way it should be. Does anyone have a manual for my boiler?
  • acl10 acl10 @ 11:53 PM
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    More pictures

    From the top of the boiler blue case measures 17 inches to where the horizontal pie comes out. From the boiler to the top where the header curves is 45 inches. I have all Dans books and I read them thats why I suspected something was wrong here. Does anyone know of a good generic diagram for piping that would match this boiler on line from a  different company. Thank You.
    I wish I knew someone that knows what he is doing in Brooklyn NY that ncould look at the system.
  • JStar JStar @ 5:44 AM
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    I bet...

    ...the way it's piped, the water is finding every way possible to leave the boiler, and the feeder is kicking on to flood the system. Do you have a lot of water hammer, too?
    - Joe Starosielec
    732-494-4357
    j.star@thatcherhvac.com
    http://thatcherhvac
    http://facebook.com/thatcherhvac


    Guaranteed performance. Guaranteed energy savings.

    Serving all of NJ, NYC, Southern NY State, and eastern PA.
    Consultation anywhere.
    (Formerly "ecuacool")
  • acl10 acl10 @ 10:17 AM
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    Water hammer

    Yes there is alot of water hammer. Is there a diagram that can be downloaded for proper piping.
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 10:21 AM
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    That boiler

    looks similar to a Utica, except that the steam outlet is on the top rather than the side.

    You don't even have a header, just a vertical pipe with an equalizer coming off the side. It needs to be completely repiped. And yes, I'd make it a 3-inch header.

    Is there another place on the top of the boiler where a second riser can be connected?
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • acl10 acl10 @ 10:21 AM
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    Is this boiler to big for the house?

    Boiler model Enerjet continues gas steam boiler 262-500btu 214-000 btu
    Does this mean that my boiler is 5000btu?This boiler is running   a 2 family house and 12 radiators and a hot water closed loop  system in basement.
    Is this boiler to big for the house?
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 10:25 AM
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    It's actually

    262,500 BTU input, 214,000 output and the Square Feet rating is something like 663. Count up the radiation and see how well it matches the Square Feet rating.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    This post was edited by an admin on April 27, 2010 10:25 AM.
  • acl10 acl10 @ 11:01 PM
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    Diagram

    Can someone draw a diagram as to how the piping should look for this boiler.
    Thanks
  • acl10 acl10 @ 11:41 PM
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    Pipe sizes and pictures

    The pipes into the boiler is 2 inches the pipe into the header is 2 1/2 and part of the header is 2 1/2 then it becomes a 3 inch pipe as you can see in the picture then it goes back into a 2 1/2 as it branches out.
    Should the 2 1/2 part be chaged to a 3?
  • A pictures worth.....

    a whole bunch.  This should give you an idea of how to best pipe that type of boiler.  There are two steam risers off the boiler which drop into a 3 inch header the next pipe going up is the 3 inch supply to the system, and all the way near the end when the header drain is the hartford loop, where the copper returns connect from the system and  and then to the boiler.
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)
    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert


    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
  • acl10 acl10 @ 4:12 PM
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    My boiler doest have 2 steam risers

    My boiler doest have 2 steam risers. The header is already in place near the ceiling. I want to know if I can detach the header near the 3 inch put in a drip line the only question is where to connect the drip line on the bottom
  • As Steamhead said.....

    You don't have a header at all...the pipe near the ceiling is simply the steam main.
    The steam boiler piping installation is just completly wrong and needs to be taken out and redone correctly.
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)
    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert


    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
  • acl10 acl10 @ 11:19 PM
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    Main makes an L

    The pipe near the ceiling makes an L and goes into the steam mains. The small part 2 1/2 becomes 3 when it turns to the middle of the house and connects to the steam mains in the middle of the house that go both aways and branch out.
  • N/A @ 1:22 AM

    Situation

    Hi- I've been following your posts and threads and somehow there seems to be a big "disconnect" involved. While I'm just a homeowner and an amateur regarding steam, it is pretty obvious what your system's problems are. Here are a few observations that maybe of help to you.
    1. Your near boiler piping, to put it politely, is "trash"!! The best thing one could do would be to use a sawsall and remove all the piping from the boiler back to the steam mains /returns and start again. There isn't a "quick fix".
    2. I see in another post you are trying to find a manual for your boiler. Your boiler is an "off brand" so such a manual may not even exist. Steam Pros install boilers from well known manufacturers who they know will back up their warranty so they aren't likely to install or have a manual from an "off brand". 
    3. The boiler manual won't do you that much good. Most I&O manuals I have read assume that you have a knowledge about how to install a steam boiler and so provide minimal instruction about piping - maybe one page in 50. If you're expecting a detailed step by step installation piping procedure, they don't exist.
    4. With some exceptions most boilers of the size you have will have more than one port for steam to exit the boiler. As can be seen from the photographs and what you have mentioned, you now only have one steam pipe (riser) coming out of the top of the boiler. Steamhead asked you if you have another steam exit port in the boiler for a second riser?  (probably in the top of the boiler at the opposite side from the location of the one that is now hooked up.) Using the second boiler port cuts the steam velocity way down and results in far dryer steam as with less velocity - less water is sucked up into the steam. Dry steam makes for a far more efficient system.
    5. You said you have Dan's books. Do you have "The Lost Art of Steam Heating"?  It should be able to answer most of the questions you have. If you have questions about it, let us know (page number etc) and we'll do our best to help you.

    You're lucky in that you have some high grade talent trying to help you out. If there was a list of the top 25 steam heating pros in the USA, Steamhead and BoilerPro would be on that list and close to the top.  Boiler Pro provided you with a picture of what your piping should look like. In your case, the boiler exit riser(s) come out of the top of the boiler rather than as in the picture where the exit risers are on the sides. However the general configuration should be the same.

    At this point I would say you need to decide whether to get a steam pro to straighten your piping out for you or if you're considering doing it yourself, start from scratch by making a diagram of your boiler with all the steam exit and return ports and their sizes and locations.  I would also make a diagram of the steam piping/returns throughout the house including pipe lengths/ sizes and where the radiators and main vents are located.
    You might also want to do a survey of the radiator EDR and I've included a chart that might be of help to you for this. With these drawings you (we) will have a better idea of what needs to be done.
    - Rod
  • acl10 acl10 @ 10:19 AM
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    One cutout

    This was the way I found the boiler when I bought the house about 11 years ago. There is no other cutout for a riser only one.
    I do not want to change the boiler now because it will cost me alot of money. I would like to do the minimum to get the system working better. It heats up the house but the boiler is always full of water the glass is always on full and sometimes it sends water up the pipes to the radiators. I have set the pressure at the lowest and that helps. I also drain out the water regularly from the return to lessen the amount of water.
  • acl10 acl10 @ 10:26 AM
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    Picture of the L

    Picture of the L
  • acl10 acl10 @ 3:12 PM
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    Diagram

    I would appreciate if someone could draw adiagram of how the piping for this boiler should look based on all the pictures here.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 5:10 PM
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    do you have an automatic feed?

    If the answer is no and even if is is yes the manual feed valve may be faulty. If the boiler has a tankless this could also be leaking causing the boiler water to rise. If the water level is high there are only so many ways it can enter the boiler.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • acl10 acl10 @ 9:13 PM
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    I have automatic

    I have automatic the valve is ok. ts not tankless but the boiler has a loop system of hot water going through it as well to heat the basement
  • acl10 acl10 @ 11:37 PM
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    Pipe into bolier

    Is the fact that the pipe that goes into the boiler above the halfway mark in the glass {as you can see in the picture} causing the glass to be full all the time?
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 9:37 AM
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    the answer is no

    water is being added when it should not be. The source needs to be found. Too many "if's" to give a cause over the internet. Boiler needs properly piped and water inlets need checked. Are you sure the gauge glass is clear at the boiler ports?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
    This post was edited by an admin on May 12, 2010 9:38 AM.
  • acl10 acl10 @ 10:32 AM
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    From returns

    I think that the bolier is filling up from the returns. Everytime I drain some water from the return the water level goes down. The glass is clear
  • Roland Roland @ 4:27 PM
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    Brooklyn steam guy..........

    Contact Information
    Gerald Steuer BETH@ALLMECHANICALPLUMBING.COM Phone 1-800-757-6767 Fax 718-272-2067
    Give them a call, they are in Brooklyn.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 4:35 PM
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    The water in returns

    is the condensate from your boiler. Water should not be entering your returns except in the form of condensate from your heating system. If the level is not remaining within the range of an inch from the water level you set than you need to call a proper Tradesman in who is versed in steam heat and have it repaired.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • acl10 acl10 @ 4:45 PM
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    Water feed

    As you can see the water feeder goes into the return line. Someone on the board said its supposed to be that way so the cold mixes with the hot and doesnt crack the boiler
  • acl10 acl10 @ 5:18 PM
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    Repiping

    Can someone make a diagram for piping this boiler. What  should it cost to repipe this boiler right?
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 9:40 PM
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    we do not talk price

    There are too many variables from region to region also each business needs to determine their own costs and pricing.  If you have Dan's book lost art of steam you have diagrams of how it should look.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Poor Guy

    All he wants is a diagram. 
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • acl10 acl10 @ 7:38 PM
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    Thank you for your consideration

    Thank you for your consideration
  • acl10 acl10 @ 10:06 AM
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    Diagram

    Can anyone do a diagram that is tailored for this partcular boiler. As you can see in the pictures the way the pipes are set up.
  • Scotland623 Scotland623 @ 9:46 PM
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    piping

    Please remember this is a profession not a hobby for us. Without a complete system evaluation and boiler room visit the piping is only one part of what may be more than one problem. Hire a professional.
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