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    Navien Combi Boilers (49 Posts)

  • MacPHJr MacPHJr @ 7:32 PM
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    Navien Combi Boilers

    Anyone have any experience with these units. I'm looking into it for a customer. The price along with the mass rebate and tax credit make it very appealing.
  • Dabbler Dabbler @ 1:08 PM
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    heat load

    How do you figure a heating capacity of a Navien combi unit listed at 199,000
  • Dabbler Dabbler @ 1:08 PM
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    heat load

    How do you figure a heating capacity of a Navien combi unit listed at 199,000
  • Chris Chris @ 7:03 PM
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    Will not qualify for 90% or 96% heating rebate. It is not a boiler, not rated as a boiler nor has the ratings for a boiler period!!!!!! Has no AHRI number. IT IS A TANKLESS WATER HEATER THAT IS PROMOTED AS A HEAT SOURCE!
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    This post was edited by an admin on April 20, 2011 7:06 PM.
  • HDE HDE @ 7:53 PM
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    Bad info, first, AHRI is a testing institute, not a government agency.
    The combi is listed and recognized by DOE and Energy Star.
    It is not a tankless, but a 2-circuit combi boiler, isolated with a heat exchanger
    They also have a ASME H stamp boiler model, so if thats not a boiler, not sure what you think is?????????????????????????????????
  • NRT_Rob NRT_Rob @ 10:13 AM
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    the navien dos carrier an AFUE-CA rating. That's pretty boiler like if you ask me.

    I am hearing a lot of murmuring about problems, but nothing direct from a horse's mouth.
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 8:57 AM
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    You are incorrect.

    IT IS A BOILER. Please check your facts. It is very frustrating when researching as a homeowner looking through bad information in your posts.
  • EddieG EddieG @ 7:44 AM
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    I will be installing my first Combi version of the Navien, next week hopefully. We are in LP country and they just became available recently. I am waiting for the local rep. to get them in stock. I am personally partial to boilers for heating and water heaters for heating domestic. However this particular job the homeowner wanted to install a tank-less water heater and wants the ability to add a small radiant zone in the near future, so this seemed to be the perfect application for this.

    Triangle Tube also now has the Challenger model available. We had a demo of it in our area last week. It's domestic output is slightly lower than other tank-less units, but you can use a buffer. If the existing water heater is in good shape, bingo, you have a buffer. I think it will work well for apartments and condos with smaller loads.  
  • Chris Chris @ 8:04 PM
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    Orange Box Employee

    Please tell us where in this installation manual that it states this is a boiler?

    Please show us where it states here other then the file name..
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    This post was edited by an admin on April 21, 2011 8:08 PM.
  • HDE HDE @ 10:08 PM
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    I understand your innocence and lack of information regarding combis. You see once you may have the opportunity to see the world you will understand that overseas they are called heaters since a real combi is dual purpose, separated circuits. Take for instance the embassy onyx, marketed as a boiler as itself and under other US boiler brand labels but, once you look at thier liiterature it says "combination heater".

    Since the Navien CH-240-ASME carries the ASME section 4 approvals and plate, your argument that it is not a boiler is false, that's all.
  • VictoriaEnergy VictoriaEnergy @ 1:28 AM
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    It is a boiler

    I've installed their on demand HWH units.  Never the boilers.

    On the pro side; you get an impressive amount of design ingenuity for your money.  The units I've installed have had excellent initial reliability.

    On the con side;  They're not very easy to work on, and although I haven't yet had to do it,  I don't look forward to taking it apart to clean out the heat exchanger.  Full of lots of little plastic/elbow/clip/adaptor/o-ring things that have a habit of easily breaking.  Since they are new to our market, and the US is not thier core market, long term parts availability and the service life are the biggest concerns for them.
    Home Owners Please Note:

    You are receiving advice from some very skilled pros completely free of charge. One of the reasons I participate is to sharpen my own troubleshooting skills. So; did we get it right? I would be grateful if you extend this courtesy back by posting the final outcome of the issue you are inquiring about. Thanks
    This post was edited by an admin on April 22, 2011 1:33 AM.
  • jonny88 jonny88 @ 7:37 PM
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    be careful

    they work great for on demand hot careful though,for heating look into the model you buy.i do apologize but it was a long time ago when we did the install.there is a unit they make for heating i forget the model number,but the hot water unit will give you nothing but headaches if you want to run a heat source of it,also watch out for the filters underneath the unit,if they become anyway dirty the unit wont fire,easy fix though,just unscrew the filter and took us however a long time to figure out.u void the warranty if you run the hot water unit at more than 140 degrees,so be careful as to which unit you get
    This post was edited by an admin on April 22, 2011 7:40 PM.
  • AFred AFred @ 9:46 PM
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    Had a few flow switches trip on some, EZ fix, slap the switch with your screwdriver handle, then go home.
    I still havent decided if I like them or not, I think I fear them. They remind me of a quietside, and I dont want that nightmare again!!
  • HDE HDE @ 11:08 PM
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    You are both confused, we are not discussing the Navien Tankless units but the Navien model CH combi boilers
  • Chris Chris @ 7:29 AM
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    I'll Concede

    That the CH-240-ASME is a boiler. The other CH models are not. I am not ignorant as to combi units. I was selling Vitodens combi's long before the isles at HD had tankless units...
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • HDE HDE @ 10:40 AM
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    Viessmann makes a fine boiler, but since my last trip through Toronto, and a stop at their office, I'm sure their product lines hasn't changed, so calling their shared Ht/DHW circuit Vitodens a combi is like calling a single circuit tankless models a combi boiler also.
    Currently there are only two states that require ASME on their boilers in order to be installed. So producing a near identical product and selling it for hundreds of dollars less that the H-stamped brother makes it no longer a boiler, even though its identical? I call that smart!
    Your a passionate distributor employee no doubt, but there are other products besides Viessmann.
    My Home Depot name bother ya? I've been on heating help about 7-8 years, this is my second screen name, years ago it used to bother people which was fun, not so much any more, but newbies like yourself always come along and it recreates the agitation I was once looking for. - LOL
  • Chris Chris @ 3:55 PM
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    Cowards Hide

    Thanks for the heads up ME. You can't have a conversation with a coward. They hide in the dark giving them no credibility in my book.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 5:33 PM
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    Before you go casting stones...

    First off, I agree with you regarding people using their real names instead of fake screen names. If it were up to me, it wouldn't be allowed. But some people (like HD) have a reason for not divulging their real identity, and that is their perrogative. Dan doesn't require users to use their real names. Through his software, he knows exactly who they are, but doesn't require them to use their real names in their postings.

    With that said, what do you think other people think of YOUR screen name???? What the heck is a HVHEHCCA :-)

    Most regular contributors know who you are and who you work for, but many new comers wouldn't because you aren't using your real name, no? And to the best of my knowledge, you have NOTHING to hide from, correct?

    It's the people who come in here, and make a mess under a cutesy fake screen name, and then disappear (trolls) that make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. Like I know you, your lack of a real screen name does not bother me. I know who HD is, and it doesn't bother me either, and you shouldn't let it bother you either. I'm fairly certain that if you attempt to contact him off line, he will respond in kind, and once you see who he really is, and why he's not using his real name, I hope you will understand.

    He's here to stay, and is legitimate and knowledgeable in his postings. You too have learned something from him.

    Now, let's get back to educating each other and consumers, shall we.

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Chris Chris @ 9:15 PM
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    We Shall

    I have to agree I did learn something from him. The tone that he set brought out the Jar Head in me and if I offended I apologize. With that said, I wouldn't expect someone within the mfg side of the industry and obvisouly well educated on the subject to get off on inciting others through sarcasim. But that is my fault for letting it get to me. I would though, expect them to inform and educate as he did in his further post on the heating btu's of the Navien. That was a well explained and informative post.

    From his little bio he started in the industry just a few years earlier then I. While I am originally from New England I've probably crossed his path a time or two. He would have grown up in the early Viessmann, Stadler days as I did.

    Mark, I don't hide my name...Its at the bottom of every post :)
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    This post was edited by an admin on April 25, 2011 9:27 PM.
  • scott markle scott markle @ 5:21 PM
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    viessman Combi

    Hey HDE,

    What's with the combative tone, Chris may have been wrong about the Navien but wouldn't it have been nicer to inform us all of this in a more civil manner. If I remember correctly dan has stepped in in the past to say the all Capitals was verboten.

    Once you start playing the know it all game you can look kind of silly when your wrong. Since Viessman basically brought the first mod-cons to NA, (real H stamp pressure rated vessels) you might want to review their product history, The 200 series which is currently in it's second generation here in NA was indeed offered with a built in flatplate HX and diverter solenoid making it a true (and probably the first in NA) combi boiler.

    Chris may be be acting a bit defensively, but your insinuation that he is too provincial to be familiar with the european comi-boiler nomenclature is insulting. It also gives me a little more insight into your monicker, you revel in inciting those that might be threatened by the big box retailers. It's not that inciting opinion is bad. But I suspect the attitude of superiority you showed with Chris ( ie the you don't know what your talking about because you've never been abroad tone). Is the same preconception you bring to the people you want to incite with your fake name.

    I'm not a huge fan of the combi- format except in very space limited applications, problem is that the kind of spaces that don't have room for an indirect are generally too small for an appliance that can make continuous hot water. BTW I the vito combies I have installed are still running quit nicely 2 of them since 2004
  • HDE HDE @ 5:38 PM
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    What capital letters? ASME and a few others is always capitalized.

    My correction for Chris' strongly worded incorrect statement offended you?

    Not sure I understand your stance on that one.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 12:00 PM
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    Don't let the HD handle throw you. He knows a lot more about wall hung boilers than he lets on...

    Trust me, the HD handle is meant to incite, and it obviously works in that vein.

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • haventseenenough haventseenenough @ 3:00 PM
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    when did HD become a ligit plumbing and heating supply house? No offense, just wondering.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 6:23 PM
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    Home DEpot has their own wholesale supply chain, and have had a for a few years now.

    They bought out a large wholesale concern a few years back.

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • scott markle scott markle @ 7:01 PM
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    Bold,Capitals, what's the difference?

    Your not guilty of the classic caps lock, but the tricky font size alteration is basically the same.

    My issue is this, you are baiting a certain type person with your name, not that you hide your identity, but that your identity is false. Actually I don't even have a problem with that.

    What bothers me is the thinly veiled sense of superiority that was revealed in the recent exchange. It's one thing to provoke but condescending provocation is just plain ugly. you should hide your cards better.

    If we're going to play the who knows more about combi's game it' your turn to say I was wrong about Viessmann's history importing combies

    I think what you would really love is for some proud redneck to embarrass him self by saying something stupid or vaguely racist about what crap they make in korea and how HD is selling out to the Asians etc. Makes good theater but hardly advances the cause of better heating and hot water systems.
  • HDE HDE @ 7:44 PM
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    Inciting or exciting?

    2.1 GPM at a 35 deg rise? whats that .75 gpm at 70? what will one do with that? - Sorry
    BTW, I did nothing to change fonts, but it sure as heck bothered you.
    I would be equally involved if someone got on here and said don't buy Rinnai, their contaminated with radiation.

    Redneck? looks like your stereotyping may offend some people. I lived in TN, now I want an apology
  • scott markle scott markle @ 8:41 PM
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    Sorry if I offended, but i think your still playing games.I don't get your gpm metaphor.
    Am I supposed to check your math and prove my hydronic credibility? Chris may have swallowed your bait and lost his cool, but I suspect that's what your fishing for. If your anonymous you never have to say you sorry.
  • Plumdog Plumdog @ 9:19 PM
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    OK, I'm curious!

    Mr. Home Depot Employee:
    Did you go by "TANKLESS" handle just before Katrina?
    Just askin. Always like your posts, by the way.
  • HDE HDE @ 9:47 PM
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    No not me, I think that guy is in Florida, if I recall
  • HDE HDE @ 5:08 PM
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    Far from new

    See it works (I've never worked at HD, but most have figured that out)

    Thanks ME, we've had some interesting posts in the past.

    One should note, manufacturers don't like coming here for one reason, maybe two, the product attacks and the know-it-alls. Having been in the boiler industry for 26+ years, worked for more than a few manufacturers, a new kid on the block would never rile me.
  • bill bill @ 7:40 PM
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    Time to come clean

    Why home depot employee? Why not Lowe's? Your knowledge of this stuff is pretty sharp,. and has been for awhile.
  • HDE HDE @ 12:01 AM
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    Thanks Bill

    Many years ago when so many contractors felt threatened by the big box stores, which we all know didn't turnout to be a threat, Lowes was non-existent in the northeast, where I once lived and worked when I chose my screen name. Lately I spend more time elsewhere online however I always check

    A little more about me

    I've been at every AHR show since 1995, I used to enjoy the US ISH shows when they were in existence, I've been to ISH Germany 5 times, I've toured Grundfos in Denmark,
    Rinnai and Takagi in Japan, so many ASPE's and PHCC's I couldn't begun to count, Viessman in heizung (automation is awesome) and too many boiler and pump manufacturers to count, Amtrol back in the 80's in Boston was memorable.

    My job/life is to know as much as I can about the boiler and Tankless companies, that's how I draw a paycheck.

    I can appreciate the passion of many contributors on heating help, I myself continue to learn lots, I haven't seen Dan speak in quite a few years, his incite and delivery of info was always the best.

    Best to all, in all my years here maybe closer to 10, there is always something to learn even from the ones that are new at the industry, and add a different perspective, even when us veterans must help them see the big picture.

    Lastly thanks to all that sent me the private thanks, complements and encouragement.
  • Dabbler Dabbler @ 8:32 AM
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    Done Venting?

    Now that everyone is done venting, I will return to my original question, on a combi unit how many btu's are available for heat, and since the unit requires primary/secondary piping what is the head loss to size the pump. I have read the manual and cant find this information (unless I am looking at the wrong manual).
  • NRT_Rob NRT_Rob @ 8:52 AM
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    Your questions are raising major red flags. If you can't even trivially easily answer those two questions I would hope you are getting some professional help here as you are not ready to work with this or any other hydronic combustion appliance.

    No offense intended.
  • Dabbler Dabbler @ 11:01 AM
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    Need to know what I am getting into,

    None taken, I am not a professional, have no intention of installing anything, asked a question so I could understand what I was looking at, the forum says ask your questions so I did, combi unit says 199,000btu's how much of that can be used for heating?
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:16 AM
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    Based on their literature....

    Looks like around 160.000 btuH. (listed flow rates and delta T's).

    Their literature is a bit scant in that area, and doesn't really spell out all of the parameters, but that's a fair bit of energy.

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • HDE HDE @ 1:24 PM
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    same as published #

    BTU's available heating is the input x thermal efficiency (96-98% I think)
    So a 199,000, is capable of 190MBTUH+

    Modulating firing rate is based on Delta T of S & R. Lets say the internal pump is 6 GPM. And you have a zone or zones totalling 15 GPM.

    Mix Stream Formula (used to determine temps on primary/secondary circuits):

    On a cold start (room temp of 70 deg), boiler set at 160 degrees

    (Primary 160 degree x 6 GPM) + (Secondary 70 deg x 15 gpm) = 2010

    Primary 6 GPM + Secondary 15 GPM = 21 GPM

    2010 / 21 = 95 degrees

    160 degrees boiler supply - 95 deg mixed return temp = 65 degree S & R boiler Delta T

    65 DT x 500 x 60 = 195,000 BTU's

    So at start up, the 199,000 BTU Combi or tankless would be fired at max BTU's.  

    The head loss of the internal pump is basically a moot point since it requires primary/secondary piping unless you intended to make a large primary which isnt normal on a residential installation.
    This post was edited by an admin on April 25, 2011 1:27 PM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 1:43 PM
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    According to their numbers....

    as seen on their web site, they give a flow rate, and a delta T. THAT is the number I used in determining their output.

    So, are those numbers wrong? Or am I misunderstanding the information they are putting out. Is the water in the appliance the space heating water, and the FPHXer for DHW, or is the water in the boiler potable water, and the secondary side of the FPHXer space heating water?

    Page 4 of their literature attached.

    The only heat exchanger that I am aware of that is 99% efficient is the reverse indirects, like Turbox max... and they WONT fit under the cover of the boiler :-)

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • HDE HDE @ 3:22 PM
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    The numbers published that you see are the DHW production flow rates at a given rise via a SS plate heat exchanger. You are correct in concluding it is a 160MBTUH plate exchanger, but not the combustion heat exchanger.

    The CH Navien combi is opposite of the most tankless units and some other brand combis, such as a BAXI. In this case the primary and secondary heat exchangers are now the closed side and the DHW is heated via a plate using the on-board circ to transfer the heat. This same circ provides the flow for the primary loop or small loop requirements.

    So the combustion efficiency/thermal efficiency is as high as 98%, but the DHW efficiency due to heat transfer losses is about 87% resulting in a CA-AFUE (combine appliance) of 92%

    CA-AFUE is a fairly new rating and will be enforced on all combi's within a year or two. It is truly an accurate way to rate both operations over a year. Kinda brings up the argument of rating indirect tanks, will they ever? Or can they ever?
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 5:43 PM
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    Got it...

    I thought that ws the case, but their literature I referenced is not real clear.

    As for testing indirect DHW heaters equally, I think it can and should be done, using a standard test, using standard operating parameters. That is the problem with tankless, and indirects. The manufacturer gets to decide what information the consumer is presented, and all they see is the Gallons Per Hour, and not the missing information that is critical in making the decision, like degree F rise for those GPH...

    A BTU is a BTU is a BTU, and they all can only do the SAME thing to water. That's the problem with letting the marketing department tell the engineering department what THEY want to see...

    If all indirects and tankless heaters were truly rated the same, the consumer would be capable of making a decision without intervention from the marketing department...

    Thanks for the feed back.

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • HDE HDE @ 8:45 AM
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    My my such defensiveness

    Thanks Mark.
    In the industry we call these imported products and their manuals and literature to be written Japenglish, Korenglish, Chinenglish, you get the point, there is a need for interpretation. I have noticed it continues to get better.

    I would once again be remiss for not acknowledging the countless Wallies that have sent me a private message thanking me for "standing up and correcting" .
    You are all right, "the site is for all contributors" not just a few. And yes, wear your "big boy pants"
    This post was edited by an admin on April 26, 2011 8:46 AM.
  • Chris Chris @ 4:14 PM
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    Being that you are well versed in the combi field what are your impressions and take on this product?

    I was told that this isn't being made by the parent company ACV. Its a another mfg across the pond that has had success with it. Do you know who the parent company is and are you aware of any past or current issues with it?

    I'm trying to educate myself on this unit before making a decision on whether we should stock it. We also sell Navien by the way.. Thanks
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • HDE HDE @ 10:09 PM
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    Ah yes the Challenger

    Im a big fan of the Prestige, I think my dad has serial # 00000000019.

    Their Excellence is also a fine product, except the weight, price and depletion of indirect tank quickly such as tub filling results in a less than 3 gpm uncontrolled tankless unit in a ways.

    I've also had the opportunity of visiting the ACV HQ in Brussels. And yes they do not manufacture the Challenger. The product remains to be truly tested however, its pitfalls of course is the aluminum heat exchanger (we all know their issues) and I'm uncertain how the copper domestic coils will work sandwiched inside the aluminum. Will there be issues with dissimilar metals, abrasion due to two metals with different properties and temps?

    Lastly the low BTU's results in a combi that has limited place (small home/condo/apt).
    I first saw the TT Challenger at the 2010 AHR show in Miami. If I remember my European boilers it is a Brötje Ecotherm which is a member of the BAXI Group, thats why the burner and heat exchanger should look familiar.

    You sell Navien? what other tankless do you have? Do you have the Navien Combi also?

    On a side note did you know the AO Smith Next Hybrid and the Voltex Ht Pmp water heaters are made/from China?
    This post was edited by an admin on April 26, 2011 10:45 PM.
  • Chris Chris @ 11:08 PM
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    For the input. I too feel that the Challenger has a very limited market application. I tend to think it's there avenue to apartment complexs, town houses and similar bath and a half applications. It looks more like a kick space heater on steriods in some aspects.
    The HX and copper domestic coils don't sit well with me. The types of applications this unit targets generally sees the least service and that shouts potential problems in my eyes. Water quality in these parts is not the greatest. I also just found out that Triangle found a new vendor to make their HX's. My understanding is that the previous vendor was unable to make them a larger HX above 399 and they were finding more quality control issues with them as they increased demand on them. They are also making little changes such as going 439SS through the entire HX and beefing up the passgeways. It never sits well with me when I here changes in HX's but making something better is never a bad thing.

    The reason I asked about the Challenger is I'm meeting with the local rep next week. They are dangling the Challenger as a not everyone is going to be able to get and we want you to have it. I've been in the Wholesale side for a long time and you know as well as I that that's like a politician promising the world until he's elected..

    Yeah we are the typical Vegas Strip worker. Nortiz, Navien and a slew of mod/cons to include Triangle. We are the only guys on the block though that actually stock and highlight Viessmann. I started selling it back in the early early 90's when I worked in New England. Grew up in the early days of Stadler (my first radiant line), Viessmann under the Joe Freidrich atmosphere. Constant circulation and NR-32's baby. I actually have the privilage to have all his articles in chronological order that he wrote during his days with Contractor Mag. I have to thank Mr Ross for those as he and Joe are still close. Its amazing at times to read his thoughts then and see it in what we are doing now.. .

    You mean the up and coming top mfg dog on the planet. Doesn't surprise me.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    This post was edited by an admin on April 26, 2011 11:11 PM.
  • HDE HDE @ 11:18 PM
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    Ht Exchangers

    To fill in a few blanks, TT for whatever reason started shopping for a new manufacturer of the their heat exchanger. Once they found one and switched, the prior one sitting in Poland had no work or orders and pitched it to others.
    Thats now why Lochinvar has switched from Gianonni to Fire tube ("TT design"), along with NY Thrmal (NTI).
  • Chris Chris @ 11:39 PM
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    I See Says The Blind Man

    Makes sense. It is a nice design. Wouldn't surprise me to soon see the US four jump on that wagon train.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • TonyS TonyS @ 7:13 PM
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    They purchase exchangers from both manufacturers

    now. A couple of years ago they could not keep up with demand and had to find another manufacturer. That is why there are two now. That type of robotic welding isnt performed by everyone. Setting up the machinery is an art in itself unlike the bend and stamp crowd it takes hi tech equipment to make that fire tube exchanger. 
  • TonyS TonyS @ 10:45 AM
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    I have only installed one

    and it has been working very well. But be aware if you are going to use water hotter than 140 you must vent with schedule 80 cpvc or PP.
  • JohnHenry JohnHenry @ 6:34 PM
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    my CH-210

    Continues to work very well after 2 heating seasons. Not a single issue not involving the biological interface :)

    I figure over those two heating seasons I've saved 3-4 times the cost of the "combination heating unit" itself in fuel cost and efficiency (changed from oil to gas). Not a bad ROI...
    The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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