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New Lochinvar Knight Installation (73 Posts)
New Lochinvar Knight InstallationI had my boiler and hot water heater replaced about 6 weeks ago with a Lochinvar Knight/Squire modcon and indirect hwh. I selected a contractor to install the system from a neighboring community (approx 35 miles away) rather than one from my community for a variety of reasons. I am very pleased with the overall installation.
The boiler (WBN106) worked fine for several days but then began to lock out due to a “Flue Temp Diff” error requiring manual reset. This happens anytime the boiler runs at 100% for more than about 5 minutes as best I can tell. This means I have to reset it multiple times a day, basically whenever there is a call for hot water. The boiler seems to work fine in space heating mode. I assume this is because the demand is low enough (boiler never even approaches 100% right now for space heating) so that the problem doesn’t arise.
My boiler was one of the first Lochinvar’s with the new Smart Control installed locally and I understand they had some issues with the flue temperature sensor and/or control unit. Within a few days of the problem my contractor informed me that Lochinvar was aware of the problem and was sending the necessary replacement parts. In the next couple of days the contractor came by and replaced the parts, first the user interface control and then the flue temperature sensor. Unfortunately this did not fix the problem. I called my contractor, who got back to me that Lochinvar was aware that there were still problems and would be sending up still another replacement part (I think the interface control) to fix it.
After about three weeks, I still had not heard anything from the contractor so I called them. I was told that the part was in, but that they were busy on jobs in their local area, and basically they couldn’t make time to come to my location and put the part in. They called back and said it would be another week before they could come by to put the part in.
My questions are first, have others had similar issues with the Lochinvar Knight? Lochinvar seems to be responsive but I am concerned about future problems when my space heating is critical. Secondly, although I like my contractor, I can’t help but feel that he should have made more of an effort to fix this in a timely manner. Am I expecting too much? Again I am concerned about his response when we are deep in the heating season and the boiler has a problem.
not expecting too much...No, you're not expecting to much to have to wait that long when they have the parts in hand. I'm sure you paid good money for the install and should expect good service. Hopefully you have at least a one year labor warranty. Out of curiosity, why did you go with this company rather than a local outfit?
The Knight is a good boiler and should treat you right for many years with annual service.
Choosing a contractorI got two bids for the work, one from a large company in the community, one from the smaller outfit from a neighboring community. I'm a mechanical engineer, had an energy audit done with an estimated heat load, and I had done my own heat load. Still, the big firm, after asking the square footage of my home insisted that I needed a larger boiler than what I wanted him to bid. His attitude was basically we don't want your input, we'll give you what you need.
The smaller firm was willing to discuss my concerns, and agreed with my boiler sizing, and had some other good recommendations. They regularly did work in my community. I had looked at pictures of their work and it was obvious they took pride in what they did. As I stated I am very pleased with the work. I'm very pleased with the Knight, other than the nuisance lockouts! Hopefully that will be resolved next week. My wife, however, is less patient...
I think that had I spoke with the owner he would have got someone out to replace the part sooner. And hopefully he will respond quickly if we have a problem of a more urgent nature.
First off, what a great looking install! It looks like you had a highly skilled contractor providing a "top-shelf" install.
We have verified the issue and are waiting on the corrective parts from our OEM supplier. In this instance you will be receiving a phone call from your rep agency in the area to assure that this model (by serial #) requires the new part.
On behalf of everyone here at Lochinvar, we apologize for the inconvenience and appreciate your patience in getting this resolved. The Knight is an excellent product that will serve you well.
I will follow up with you off line to make sure this is handled in a timely manner and that you are completely satisfied with the required fix.
Thanks PaulYes, the installation was top notch in my opinion. I'm looking forward to the boiler operating without the frequent lockouts! And with our first sub 40F night last night the space heating demand is starting to pick up.
Same lockout issueI've been having the exact same issue with my newly installed WBN 151 with Smart Control. I was getting lockouts about every hour for several days. Reading was 'flue temp diff'. Then I found this forum and read Ted's story, so called Lochinvar tech help and got a reply that yes indeed, there is a problem with the temp sensor. Just on a whim I took mine out and coated it with silicone caulk. Voila! Problem solved. It seems it's having a problem with condensation, probably inside the sensor itself, so I decided to insulate it, and it's been holding steady for days now. This is in Anchorage Alaska, and the temps have been getting down to around 30 at night, and my house is plenty warm and the hot water, thanks to the Squire, is pretty much endless. I hope this sheds some light on the problem.
Flue Temp Diff bluesDan, sorry you're having the "flue temp diff" blues as well, but glad you got a fix of sorts. My contractor did get out and did something (I wasn't there so I'm not sure what was replaced) and it is working fine now. They had replaced the flue temp sensor and the little board that has the display on it previously. Anyway hope you fix works until you get the "official" fix.
details on flue temperature diff lockout?I just got this lockout tonight - I've not had a chance to call my plumber, but can I get some details on what the issue is and what parts Lochnivar is supplying to fix it? The boiler has been great, but we just finally hit the really cold temperatures around here, which we don't get often.
Lochinvar flue temp problemHuck, the fix I did was not official, though it was working and should get you by until you can get the Lochinvar rep out to re-flash the Smart Control motherboard. What you do is remove the flue temp sensor, which sticks out of the flue up at the top, with a wire connected to it, and coat it with some silicone sealant, then screw it back in. Just coat the part that goes inside the flue. It's not much more than finger tight. The flue gas is moist and I suspect it is condensing inside the sensor, which is pretty much just a thermocouple.
As soon as you can, get hold of Lochinvar and have them send somebody over to re-flash that board, because that will fix it for good. Let me know how it turns out. Dan
lock outI have owed this boiler(knight KBN 150) for about five years now with no problems. had it serviced once two years ago. My main problem recently (this week) is after the pre purge cycle and ignition 10 seconds later (jumping from 41% yo 100%) I get a sensor 1 open and lock out message.
after a manual reset it worked ran the first couple of times. but now it goes through that cycle and just locks out. Any help would be appreciated.
Very nice installHi Paul !! sure was nice to read you stepping in and handling his concerns ! your a real pro !!
Lochinvar Knight Boiler Problems
I had 2 lochinvar Knight Boilers installed in my 2 family home 2 years ago and 1 of the 2 units has been nothing but problems since I had it installed. Each year since it was installed it has gone out of service and I have had to have a technician come by to service it. When it first when into service the main PC board on the unit went down within 30 days, it also went down an additional 2 times that year until the technician was able to finish troubleshooting it. In the mean time my heat was working on and off until he finished it. The next year it came up with service code errors, followed by this year the main fan in the unit went out and I was forced to pay an additional $900 to have it fixed. The units cost approx $8,000 each installed as they were advertised as the latest and greatest.
When compared to $4,000 each for the basic run of the mill boiler 80 percent efficient, I paid 2x as much for a product that keeps breaking. I thought these units being over 90 percent efficient would save me money but infact they have done nothing but cost me money since they got put in as they are service nightmares.
Something else to consider is this company advertised a 12 year warranty. It is very limited and covers even less. Read the fine print!
To make the situation worse I contacted Lochinvar to see if they could help me with this last repair and they refused. Flat out just no not even a discount on parts. I feel I will never realize the savings on the heating costs because these units constantly break and will cost me more in service then I will save. In addition Lochivar does not stand behind their products and if your installer recommends one of these units ask for something else unless you want to keep his number on speed dial every-time it goes down as I do.
Dear ULC...Dear Unhappy Lochinvar Client...
I don't blame you for feeling frustrated, anyone who has been through what you describe has certainly felt that way as well.
First, I would like to apologize for the frustrating situation you are in, Second, I think I would rather call you by your first name rather than an impersonal "Frustrated Lochinvar Client".
I can assure you that Lochinvar is in the business of Professionally made heating products so I think you will see even by the thread you posted on, we take our professionalism very seriously. Allow me to do the same.
Call me at 615-889-8900 and at least you'll be closer to resolution. (Or you can email me at firstname.lastname@example.org ) Now, before you contact me, be advised that I would like a model and serial number, the list of error or service codes, and a brief time line of when the units were installed and what the chronological list of problem(s) were or are.
It's absolutely true that these units typically have a larger installation costs as well as an annual service cost that must be factored in. I will say that when they are properly installed and "dialed in" for combustion, the fuel savings will naturally follow.
As you have taken step 1 in posting this thread, let me help you with step 2 and extend this olive branch to commit to addressing your specific issues.
I will look forward to talking with you to get you the resolution you can expect from Lochinvar.
Unhappy...As one who trouble shoots this and other high efficiency boilers, I can tell you that 98% of problems in the field are installer related. Oh sure, any time you are making a bazillion widgets, you can expect SOME percentage of problems, but my experience with Lochinvar goes counter to yours.
Kudos to Paul for stepping up to the podium in true Lochinvar fashion.
MEIt's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
ProblemsNew boilers are like cars. One can have one that has no service issues and then have one that has an issue. I have a furnace that has gone through 3 boards, two blowers and two air switch. The air switch problems was an OEM problem and the manufacturer switched suppliers. The board problem was analised once last summer by a factory tech. Then this winter when the second board had hickups, I had two factory techs spend 2 hours checking the system. It still let go. I had the best installer spend two hours checking the system, no faults were found. A week later he came to my house and spent another two hours to discover that the AC unit was sending a signal back to board causing it to do strange things like cooling in 0F temperature. Disconnected the AC unit, changed the board and everything is fine.
We don't do residential hot air but we do install many, many Lochinvar Knight boilers. Since they came out, we have had the least amount of problem of ANY condensing boiler unit. We are forced by engineers to use other similar products that have many more problems. The Lochinvar support is great. We have had rarely a board that was bad or a sensor that was bad, very rarely! We have had to redo a few install by other contractors. Recently we had a Lochinvar Knight that was installed by another contractor that would need a new ignitor every three months. we were called in and discovered that the gas pressure was below minimum required. It was NOT a problem with the unit but a problem with the install and start-up! As I mentioned, it IS usualy an installer fault and not a fault with the unit!
RE: Unhappy, Problems, and Dear ULCI have a message and email out to Paul this morning and I will update this message board on the progress. In response to the problems all being installer related I cannot say anything either way on that as I am the home owner and not the installer, however if these units are so difficult to install is there a certification course that one should take before they install these units? It sounds like it is not worth the effort if a basic unit can be installed for half the price and half of the issues.
follow upI just wanted to put an update regarding my situation on this message board. Lochinvar has stated it will not be providing any relief to myself in this situation. They feel the unit is too far out of warranty for it to be their problem at this point.
I would like to caution consumers interested in this product on a few different things. 1 Lochinvar offers a 12 year limited warranty and this covers very little as far as the components of the unit are concerned, read this closely before you purchase the unit. Paul informed me this is the industry standard and Lochinvar has to offer a limited warranty like this to be competitive, however I feel as a consumer this can be misleading.
2 Make sure your installer is familier with these units before he installs one. The guy who installed mine is out of the business and any chance you have as a consumer is dealing with the installer. Unfortunatly for me I am out about $900 on this repair after not even my 3rd season with these units, in addition these units have a higher maintenance/installcost vs a basic unit so weigh all options before you buy them. They are very efficent units, I feel I will ever recover my money at this point because within 10-20 years when I am looking for a new unit there will be something far more advanced than these units available.
Nice units if they are working right and nothing breaks but it could not be offering much of a savings if you keep getting hit with repairs and you factor in the higher investment to get into units like this one.
Overall my experience is stick with a basic unit that is easy to service it might only be 85% efficient but getting one of these latest and greatest units can be more headaches than it is worth.
unhappyI think it would be helpful to know more about your installation. Could you post a picture and give a little more history? Was a combustion analysis ever done? Maintenance?Is it piped correctly? The knight uses a horizontal coil type exchanger (same as the munchkin) They can be finicky if they are not installed correctly. No manufacture of boilers warranties electronics more than a year.
Conventional boilers require less maintenance and can be installed by any creature with an opposing thumbs. Unless the are installed with a high level of skill, they generally short cycle and will never run at 80+ percent.. 70% is a fair comparison.
photoIf possible can someone put up a picture of what one of these units looks like properly installed so I can compare to my unit. It would also be helpful to me for future reference.
I will take a picture next time I am at that house.
Here ya go...OK, so its not "typical", but it incorporates all of the details required by the manufacturer...
Primary secondary piping is a MUST with these boilers.
As it pertains to appliance manufacturers, I have YET to install a boiler (pick a name/brand) that DIDN'T have issues. Its not a matter of IF, but more a matter of WHEN, and then it comes down to the response of the organization as a whole from the supplier to the rep thru to the manufacturer, and I have always found this organization to be excellent in their responses. I've only been practicing what I preach for 35 years. Sorry your experience goes counter to that.
As for installing a lesser efficient appliance, and expecting to not have to spend money on maintenance, nothing could be further from the truth. Even the least efficient appliance manufacturer has requirements for annual inspection and service in their manuals in order to retain their warranty. Just because people ignore this requirement doesn't make it right. The time required to do a proper and thorough job on an atmospheric versus a sealed combustion appliance is about the same labor wise.
I think that within the next few years, anything less than 90% efficient will be outlawed (already is in Europe) and we will have to install high efficiency. I've not installed anything less than 90% efficient in the last 15 years, and I have no regrets.
MEIt's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.This post was edited by an admin on February 16, 2012 4:28 PM.
Show Off!And you deserve to Mark!
Hey Mark....could you post the thread where the pic came from. I don't recall if you ever told us (not that you have to) how the job finished, besides the pic, and how it's performing. I was also curious (i apologize for not remembering the terminology) how the vent piping is performing with the expansion sleeves.steve
Here you go Steve.http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/137770/The-FUN-has-begun
The expansion joints have worked flawlessly. You can see them when they are in their partially collapsed state while the boilers are running. Then on a warm day, they are at their neutral point.
The system has worked flawlessly. I did get a call from the HO. Seems his band of grand children were near the boilers, spinning knobs, and he thought possibly that they had turned one of them off because it was in the Standby condition. Turns out that nothing was wrong. He just didn't have enough load for the second boiler. His GC's have all been warned to keep their grubby paws off of grandpas boilers :-)
Some peoples grand kids, I'm tellin' ya. ;-)
MEIt's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
Some peoples kidsCome now Mark if you were a little Kid ( not knowing how little they were), and you walked into the engine room of the Starship Enterprise........Well I guess if you had my Dad maybe not.
Skull, and Cross bone signage needed. A good spot for some made up signs with the deadmen Logo. Maybe every boiler room needs one ;-)
Re: installation. velly nice Mark!Great looking wall Mark. Where does the condensate go, do you have an indirect drain right below boiler? What kind of system circulator is on there. Last, are those WHNs or WBNs.
My piping looks nothing like this but then again they are for 700-850 SF apartments and they only have 1 zone. So there is much less piping, these units look like they are used in a larger capacity.
Unfortunately I have learned much more about boilers than I would have liked at this point do to this project. On my other house I went with a conventional boiler and knock on wood I have had much better luck. Regarding the efficiency I think it would be unfair to assume they are running below what they are designed to if they are installed by a licensed professional, I still think there is alot behind these units and they are not ment for your average home owner.
Give us what you've got.Take a few different angles so we can see on all sides of the appliance, and we'll tell you if anything is amiss.
And yes, that system services a 12K square foot home, plus snowmelt and DHW.
Thanks for the compliment Gordy. :-)
Unhappy Lochinvar,You said: "Regarding the efficiency I think it would be unfair to assume they are running below what they are designed to if they are installed by a licensed professional"
Let speak from experience that nothing could be farther from the truth. This board is replete with threads about boilers that are not operating efficiently, not heating properly, locking out constantly, having multiple parts changed and frustrated home owners like yourself who come here looking for answers because their "licensed professional" can't fix it. Inevitably, the boiler gets blamed as the culprit.
If a boiler is not sized properly, piped properly, pumped properly, controlled properly, vented and adjusted properly, then it is going to run below its rated efficiency.
I come across this regularly in the field also. One of the men who works for me part time was a rep and trainer for Buderus who has 40 years experience and you would not believe the horror stories he could tell about the installs done by "licensed professionals" that he's had to get involved with. His former boss is a friend who I'm in contact with usually a couple of times a week. He could write a large book on the problems he deals with from "licensed installers".
The point I'm trying to make is simply this: most HVAC contractors no little to nothing about hydronics and usually won't admit it. And they seldom seek to obtain the training required or the equipment needed to do the job right. Then, when the issues arise with the job, they blame it on the appliance or the manufacturer.
I'm not saying that is necessarily the case with your installer, but did you not state that he is no longer in business?
Well, I'm glad you've come here. You'll get help if you'll provide the info requested. As you can tell from his pic, Mark is tops in the science of the fluids.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
Re: Unhappy LochinvarPlease note I used another plumbing contractor to install my basic system and not the contractor I used on my Lochinvar system.
On another note can someone tell me why after only 2-3 years the electronics on my blower fan would go bad from a bad install. I mentioned to Paul at Lochinvar I felt it may be related to the main board that went bad on my system but he said after 2+ years it is highly unlikely the 2 were related. I just cant see this causing a problem 2-3 years down the road and I would have to assume Lochinvar designed the blower to last longer than 3 years. The house is located in New England, It is only cold here from November until early March. There are climates out there that the unit could be in use more than double what mine is used.
I want to add clarity to the issue of the main control board. I did talk directly to the initial installer and was told that even before the unit (boiler) was commissioned and before Bob took possesion, the installer made a critical error and applied line voltage where it ought not to have been placed. The main board was then fried but replaced prior to the start up and running in its present state of operation.
I want to state that the board never went bad on its own volition and after it was replaced, you have a length of time of proper operation prior to your troubles beginning.
Bob, care to confirm that? I just want to ensure that Lochinvar is represented honestly and fairly.
Dead SubjectIf "unhappy" is "unwilling" to post a picture, I think this subject is dead. Installation has a huge impact on both efficiency and longevity. If a boilers electronics are designed for a certain number of cycles, A severely short cycling boiler will greatly reduce the life of the boiler. It is impossible to blame lochinvar without more info. I am working on 4 boilers now that are 5 years old and short cycle horribly.Many control parts are malfunctioning.
BoilerPaul the unit ran between 2-4 weeks before the boiler went out with a bad main. I rent the property out now so taking a picture will have to wait till the next time I am there.
Regarding Paul's conversation with the installer I wasn't on the call when he spoke to the him but I am speaking from experiencing the problems. My main concern with this unit is what if nobody was around to notice this happened say people went on vacation and the house froze because nobody addressed it. I read on another message board another client pointing this out when his unit went down on a unrelated issue. Like I said earlier my issue with this blower was not the first time my unit went down.
Also just so I know besides Paul who else communicating with me on this message board is a Lochinvar employee?
I didn't get an answer to my question above. How can you determine from the picture a cause for the blower motor electronics going bad. The othe pictures I see are exterior only and do not show any wiring? So if it is something missing or plumbing related what should I look for next time I am there? Paul please respond with an answer to critical question!
worthless warranty -LochinvarSeems to me the 12 year warranty Lochinvar advertises is worthless. Looks like Lochinvar is grasping for straws trying not to pay for something they should have and playing the blame game and trying to trap the customer by sending pictures, of course we know what they will say, they certainly are not going to say it was installed correctly. Lochinvar not warranting one of their components because they did not
manufacture it is like Cadillac not warranting the alternator on a 2
year old Caddy with 15,000 miles. There is not a boiler made that should require so much extra expertise to install, unfortunately Lochinvar did not step up to the plate and do the right thing and they are now exposing their faults and weaknesses. Seems like if they would have simply helped out the consumer they could have avoided a lot of bad blog ink and saved themselves more than a few sales.
Clear as a bell"quote: Parts are warranted for 1 year."
As far as many warranty's go, this one is quite easy to read and understand.
Burnham, ECR, etc are all one year parts.
Agree, if the stuff does or doesn't last more than few years... it's the space where reputations are made or broken.
WHAT IS THThis post was edited by an admin on February 17, 2012 9:22 PM.
blower problemsBlower problems and other electronic problems are usually caused by exhaust gas reversion.
That is why we want to see your install - including how your boiler is vented and how the vent pipes terminate.
Backitup ---- The boilers are NOT that hard to install as long as YOU can read and look at pictures.
The problem is that most of the people installing YOUR boilers didn't do either.
I have three boilers right now that need repiping, Two have the water running the wrong way past the closely spaced tee's ( primary/secondary piping). So that the boiler sucks up it's own hot water.
The other boiler has the water running backwards through the boiler.
You still need some intelligence to install any high efficient modulating boiler.
WarrantiesJust wanted to clarify that warranties are different. Burnham Alpine comes with a 5yr parts and labor warranty out of the box and you can purchase additional parts and labor warranty upto 10yrs. There are a few others who also offer the same.
Consumers and some contractors really need to read warranties. Defective, means from normal wear not from abused wear. As others have stated, wrongly sized and installed products tend to have component failure most often. Why is the mfg always on the hook where is contractor/installer responsibilty?
Look at car warranties, yes they give years but also mileage caps. Why, to cover abuse from none normal wear and tear. If a blower failed because the appliance short cycled itself to death and in 3 years actually cycled itself as if it was 6yrs old is it defective? Would you consider it normal wear?"The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
Bob's Consumer Problem with LochinvarBob,
I Googled the keywords: Lochinvar; Consumer Complaints/Problems and noted a complaint lodged with Ripoff Report( report number 5872180)- the guy had a complaint very similar to yours. It seems the company's response was very similar too. It's not their fault... The problem lies with the installer ... yaddy yaddy yada . As a former landlord and present home owner I concur with the advice that one should go with a less expensive model. At least if the thing goes kapoot, you don't have as much skin in the game. I hear that the UTICA 15-B is half the price and a good value. However, if you still want to pursue your claim with Lockinvar, and I think you should because I really do think you have a claim, you should do all of the following:
1. lodge a complaint with the Attorneys General office and ask that they be investigated for fraud.
2. File a Consumer Demand Letter against them(Chapters 93A and 176 D - Mass Gen. Laws). They will be subject to double or even triple damages for giving you the run-around. You don't even need a lawyer - you can handle it pro se
3. If you rent to minorities, the Reverent Jessie Jackson at the Rainbow Push, Black Enterprise.Com would love to hear from you.
4. Lochinvar may be subject to violating federal fair housing law so you could make a complaint with them and ask for a full investigation.
5. Send them a photo, in the complaint mentioned above, the Lochinvar rep twice visited the site and was unable to discern the problem. How their so-called experts could possible tell anything from a photo is beyond the scope of my imagination.
6. You have a right to have all your questions answered. If I were you, I would make a list and not stop asking until you gained some sort of satisfaction that you were not getting a runaround.
7. Call for a boycott of all Lochinvar products - do it for the poor sucker who spends the big bucks and gets nothing for his money.
8. Get a group of like-minded consumer activists and picket the closest distributor. The 99 Percenters would be happy to hep out your good cause. There are plenty of forums on the internet where you can call for help. Organize a Flash Party at their next convention.
Power to the People!!!
Isn't the internet a wonderful place....A place where people like JoeSmoe can come and spout 99% garbage, and not have enough cajones to reveal their real identity...
Trust me Joe, Lochinvars legal team has a lot more fire power than you do, which is probably why you are hiding behind a pseudo name.
Show me a manufacturer who HASN'T been the subject of an investigation, and I will show you someone who is either out of business, or who has never been in business.
Bottom line, you can;t make ALL the people happy all of the time, and manufacturers MUST draw the line someplace, otherwise they are subject to the whims of people like JoeSmoe trashing them on a regular basis because they feel they've been "wronged".
Life is not fair. Get over it and grow some cajones. OR go stand in line waiting for your undeserved "fair shake". I worked too hard for mine to "give" it to you. You are not deserving.
This helped make my decisionI am in the market for a new boiler. A Burnham was recommended but I also heard about this company to compare. Based on this recent issue, I am going for the Burnham. Good luck getting a resolution!
Well SaidME... Gotta love those that can't get their way, their tears form an ocean of fun for those of us that like to swim.
I have just on question for the original poster. Did your installer calculate a heat loss to properly size that boiler?"The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
I bought this property as a foreclosure and switched it from a single to a double, to answer your question I have no way of knowing. I brought in 3 contractors told them all to quote me on their best units this is where I stand, I redid the entire house and honestly I have had more problems with 1 of these 2 boilers than anything else I did.
You mentioned something about crying, I am not sure what your function i am getting the feeling you are having a laugh at my expense here and I do not appreciate it. I asked above for people who are associated with lochivar to establish this, is this the case with you? I just want a resolution to my problem. Between the 2 units I could have bought a new car with what I spent. The units are in new england it isn't a super col climate and this winter has been very mild. If this was a car I would be protected by a lemon law but this isn't the case.
Hopefully Paul and lochivar come to the plate to help me out here, I still have faith in them they are the company I thought they were when I made this investment!
ResolutionIf the boiler parts are out of the warranty period then what resolution do you expect? Further you just stated that you don't no whether the boiler was properly sized. Do you expect Lochinvar to establish that for you? You choose the contractor and to be honest, no heat loss, he is the one on the hook in my book not Lochinvar.
The question becomes is the part defective from normal wear and if so, is the part still in the warranty period? You purchased the boiler and it was your responsibilty to understand the warranty at the time of purchase. It's not Lochinvars responsibilty to conceed into you because of the barking. Your investment was made in the contractor not in Lochinvar. They didn't install it nor did they knock on your door and sell it to you.
My other post wasn't directed at you, rather the internet lawyer."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
You are making a lot of assumptions based on your last response and you are not answering the question I have now asked you 3 times what is your function? Do you work for lochivar? I am starting to think the comment made above is accurate about asking me for pictures, I could respond with the photo in the book and lochivar will find a problem with it. I never said anything about sizing or what size units these are but they heat 2 different apartments 1 800 sf the other 650 sf 2 units for 2 apartments. What size boilers should thy be please answer that question before you say anything else
My FunctionIs irrelevant. Which model size boilers are installed. The correct boiler size is the one my heat loss says it should be. I just can't grasp why you aren't all over the installer as you are with Lochinvar. Is it because you think if you bark loud enough they will give you what you want just to make you go away?
BobI am curious about the power issue that was brought up. Were you in fact aware that your installer made a critical mistake (line voltage to low voltage wiring) in wiring this unit? Was this the only error that was made in wiring the unit?
I just finished dealing with another manufacturer, the installer made an error installing the vent's and pitched them (3 units) in the wrong direction. The unit had multiple problems and when the inspection was done by the manufacturer, the venting issue was pointed out and the warranty on all 3 unit's were voided.
And no, I do not work for Lochinvar....I work for a fuel supplier. As far as mid efficiency unit's not having as many issue's, that's not alway's the case. Installed a brand new furnace last week and the gas valve was bad out of the box. Hope to have the warranty valve tomorrow...This post was edited by an admin on February 19, 2012 7:17 PM.
I understand what you are saying regarding the wiring and I asked Paul at Lochinvar about this, he said if the unit has been running for 2 years since the problem it is not related. Paul at Lochinvar spoke with the guy and I asked him if there were any other red flags based on his conversation he didnt point any out to me, however he could still be at fault I dont know I am not a plumber. Regardless the homeowner is at a major disadvantage here as you assume the installer knows what he is doing as I did in this case and you assume the units are simple to install as others have pointed out on this board.
I am getting a 3rd opinion this week as I called around and I am having someone come by to look at these units who has installed alot of them in the area, but based on what I was told by my installer and his references he installed abunch of these units and was familier with them. I know he owned all kinds of specialized equipment that hooked up to these boilers like a computer and some other stuff but again I dont know the details I am only a novice as I have pointed out in the past.
This final part is for Paul if this 3rd opinion says the unit looks good and it is piped/running correctly and I send you pictures that meet your expectations will Lochinvar come to the plate and help me out with this issue. I said this earlier I still feel Lochinvar is a good company and this is a great opportunity to show everyone they stand behind their products! Paul I eagerly await your response!
Bob,I had to go back and carefully read your first post to try and discern exactly what it is that you want Lochinvar to do. Am I correct in understanding that you have already had the combustion blower replaced and now you want some form of reimbursement from Lochinvar? If that is the case, let me state that in my 40 years in the trade I have never known of any manufacturer that would do that. If you had contacted them prior to the repair (maybe you did), then out of goodwill they could have possibly chosen to warranty the part even though they were not obligated to do so. But, as I said, if you are now seeking compensation after the fact, you've taken the wrong avenue.
I do not work for Lochinvar. I am an independent contractor that sells and installs their products as well as many other brands. Therefore, I have no special interest in promoting them over another. You keep insinuating that anyone on here who wants to see and analyze your install is an employee or representative Lochinvar; that is not true. As far as I am aware, Paul Rohrs is the only one who is. The rest of us are contractors and the like who are well experienced in our field. As I and others have pointed out, we see this kind of thing regularly: an installer messes up a job; the home owner can't get him to correct it, then he feels it's the manufacturer's responsibility to fix it or pay to have it done. That's not equatable. The manufacturer did not install your boiler nor was he compensated to do so.
America has become a society of "victomized" individuals. All of us to some degree are influenced by this mentality thanks to the "Joe-Smoe's" of the world. When anything goes wrong, we think someone else should be made to pay for it.
You believe your boiler should not have had the failures it has had. I agree with you. But what has caused those failures? The only thing that we know of for sure at this point is that your installer applied line voltage to the low voltage terminals. That could not only have been the cause of the original board failure but of all your subsequent problems. I have to disagree with Paul somewhat about it not causing the blower failure. The blower has both low and line voltage connections. The low voltage are for communication with the board. If line voltage was applied to these via the board from the installer's error, then the blower could have been damaged originally. True, it's more likely the failure would have come sooner, but I've seen electronics due stranger things. Also, short cycling could be an issue.
If you will provide the info requested (photo's, boiler model and size), you will find that an honest evaluation of your system will be given. Is that not what you want? If the installation is incorrect, don't you want to be made aware of what's wrong so that you can have it corrected and have system that works right?
This board has many of the best hydronics people in the industry on it. And they are also some of the most un-biased. If you came here truly looking for answers, you'll get
them. If you're trying to use this forum as a platform to voice your gripes and bash Lochinvar, that is not is purpose: please move on.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.This post was edited by an admin on February 19, 2012 9:31 PM.
picturesWhy won't You put the pictures on here??? Nothing against the Lochinvar rep but the local rep doesn't know as much about his boilers as I do. I ran into a programing isue and He had to call the factory. There are designs for venting allowed in the install manual that I wont use. Reversion KILLS MOD/CON boilers.
All of the install manuals still show concentric venting. I will not use them.
If these MOD/CON boilers were easy to install they would sell them at Home Depot.
They Must be installed by someone that Knows hydronics and control wiring and control setup. ONE THING WRONG and the whole thing can go bad.
AGAIN - that blower is not a Lochinvar part. they are used on just about every high efficient boiler and water heater on the market today.
If they are going bad every few years you have a problem with your installation.
AND if you want to put some creditability into your posts use your real name as I and others here that care do.
BELTLINE HEATING & COOLING
PaulI am sure your knowledgable and a good guy however I am not putting anymore information on this blog until I speak with Paul.
Regarding the pictures I don't live at that house anymore I rent it out and it isn't easy, I have hired a 3rd party to evaluate the job that is familier with the units as I am getting information all over the place.
I am waiting on Paul until I post anything else about the install, as I said earlier I am not a plumber and I don't want to answer questions I am not qualified to answer. Paul please respond to my previous questions.
Quite entertaintingPaul, just send them the goddamn part and be over with it . Oh ,get a release.
There is a lot more mod/con trouble on the way.This post was edited by an admin on February 19, 2012 9:28 PM.
3rd partyI am waiting for the 3rd party analysis before I go forward. I am sure this board has its share of knowledgable people but I am uncomfortable putting anything else till I get this evaluated properly from a person without anything at stake either side and is knowledgable with these units. If the 3rd party says it is the installers fault then I will let it be known but this message board is out of hand right now.
I am not out to bash Lochivar, I had faith in them when I had these units installed and I still think they will do the right thing. I have spoken with Paul and he seems like a stand up guy! I think he will make sure what is right is done. Paul lets work as a team and get this resolved give me a call or send me an email when you get this.
I will post the final resolution when Paul and I figure it out! Until then we are just going to beat around the bush because I will not disclose any new information until Paul figures out a resolution that works for both parties! Thank you in advance Paul for your help taking care of this in a timely manner!
UncomfortableThe only way one would feel uncomfortable getting advice and opinions from some of the brightest minds in the industry is that one wants to blame others when they should blame themselves from their mistakes.
A couple of people want to turn Heating HELP in to Heating Bitch Session….Wow, The contributing members of Heating Help deserve a patience award for this post.
The original poster, Ted, AKTed, has his post hijacked by ‘UHL’ who’s original version of the story wasn’t quite the story relayed by Paul R. after taking the time to contact the original installer. Ok I can see that, everyone puts their own spin on things, and busy people lose track of time, no biggie.
IT is clear that ‘UHL’ is not seeking a solution to his problems, only to “Piss in the pond” so to speak.
On many occasions he was asked by several professionals to post pictures so you guys could better help him in solving any issues he may have, be they Product or Installation.
Nothing, Just a lot of- I can’t go back on the installer, because he is out of business, so it must be Locinvar’s fault.
Then my miracle of miracles, 2 people who have never posted on this forum before pop up to declare their un-dying hate for Locinvar, a product that many of you, who live & die by your reputation, and have clearly stated, is a quality product that you have picked out of a crowded field of many Boiler manufactures & many models from each manufacturer, You then recommend and install them for the people who pay your bills, and who you go back every year and face them when you do the yearly maintenance. Well not much more to be said on that one.
Then class warfare is brought in along with the Rev Jessie Jackson, to prove you can’t keep the oppressed landlord down for long, wow I was exhausted from just reading that post.
So from a homeowner who enjoys & learns from “being in the room” with you experts, I say thank you for trying to help this homeowner who clearly isn’t listening to the experts.
You may never know the real story, but keep on doing what you do, there are people out there who appreciate you and what you do.
pictureI stopped by today and took a picture. I can see Paul hasnt responded on this board for the last few days and he probably doesnt want to be involved anymore and Lochivar's warranty is up on this unit and they will not be coming to the plate at this point. Paul I would like to say I still think you are a good guy and I wish you the best.
I have had a few other plumbers look at this unit and they couldnt find anything else wrong with the install. I am interested to hear what people on this message board will be saying regarding the unit. I was surprised to not hear any complaints from the other guys who stopped by as most contractors I have dealt with over the years have that famous line when they first look at something "why did he do it this way?" lol. Whatever best of luck to all contributors of these posts. Chris you might want to tone it down a few notches in the future because while I am sure you are knowledagble your resort to insults and back handed comments quickly and I am sure this will cost you some customers at some point if it hasnt already. Just some constructive criticism.
I am not perfect and never tried to mislead anyone. I agree Paul did seem to get alittle different story from the installer but was he trying to trap him into saying something, from what I saw another poster put up it seems Lochivar has its fair share of complaints and someone put something up about a lot more trouble coming up not sure what that means but I assume I am not alone here. I did indeed try to use this board as a form to get my point across and I can see it pops up high on google now because of all the action, I dont want other people to have the problems I have had and after spending $16,000 installing these units to have a repair nearing $1000 3 years later yes I am disappointed and that is part of the idea of blogs like this to share your experiences unfortunatly mine was not a positive one. Maybe Lochivar is a good company right now I do not share that opinion and I am entitled to that.
Not EnoughThe picture you posted isn't enough. Can you please post a picture of the rest of the piping and provide boiler size. I can't tell from your pics but did they use the provided CPVC for the initial vent take off? Would also like to see a cleaner picture of the venting as well as where they terminate.
Look, you came here and immeditately harped on Lochinvar. Seems that your entire issues are really with the contractor you chose and you own that responsibilty. Funny thing is that I still haven't seen in any of your post that any of your chosen contractors have yet to do a heat loss to make sure those boilers are properly sized and setup. My best advice to you is to make sure that is done.
Thepurpose of this site is to help people. And, unfortunately, there is no way anyone here can help you. Best Wishes and Good Luck
Dangerous SpeculationUnhappy: you wrote
" I agree Paul did
seem to get alittle different story from the installer but was he trying
to trap him into saying something, " [italics mine]
I don't understand what you are getting at here... you think an installing contractor would volunteer that he zorched the pcb with 120v because he was "trapped" by a question if he hadn't actually done so? I find the suggestion incredible.
pictureCan you get some better picture? One out of focus picture is not going to help resolve this. I would love to see a picture of the vent terminations on this job.
vent terminations?I dont know what that is. I figured from reading the posts on this thing 1 picture would do it. Again I am not a plumber please be as detailed as posssible explaining.
TerminationsI would like to see pictures of where the vents come outside. It also wouldn't hurt to get a closer shot of piping inside
ventsI will do it next time I am there. I can say I looked at the install manual when I was there as it was left with the units and the outside of the vents looks exactly like it does in the manual. I am confident saying that. If that helps please let me know.
I still think I just got a bum part and maybe or maybe not the installers error of wiring the unit played a role. Paul said with the amount of time that passed no and everyone I called regarding this said no way should have that blower went. I was told it was just electronics on the blower the blower itself was in great shape. Looks like I just got a bum part that is my take here. Maybe Lochivar wants to consider another supplier of that part in the future. In the mean time I am out almost $1000 and I do caution anyone else buying these units look closely at issues like this.
Installers relay on the tax credit they get to help sell these units. If you are getting hit with big repairs within a few years of the install the tax credit benefit is lost. It is most likely just an isolated incident but I feel Lochivar could have helped me out someway with this issue.
Subject is deadYou come on these forums with little information except that you want to preach how bad Lochinvar is. When asked for info or pictures you put it off and then go on your tangent again!? You're dealing with some of the most knowledgeable people in the states(excluding me) and it seems as though you really don't want an answer because you're afraid of the truth.
UHLI asked about the power spike because I think, although it didnt destroy it, it may have taken some life out of everything else in your system. With that in mind, even if it were not, when I sell a new mod/con to a person, I like to sit and talk with the purchaser. One of the big item's I discuss is warranty and maintanance. Yes these unit's, properly sized and installed can save you a lot in the way of fuel usage. They also require yearly service and in some case's, have a part or two fail. This is not specific to Lochinvar, I have seen much worse with other systems. If your installer failed to point out the warranty, and what it cover's, that's on him. Lochinvar does put it in their paperwork and that is something I would have also gone over with you. The warranty was for one year. The part lasted three...sorry it happens, it's electrical and parts fail...
One other thought, the company I work for offer's service contract's for these types of units. This contract cover's a yearly service and includes most all electrical item's in the unit. Maybe it's something your supplier offer's and you should look into for peace of mind...Best of Luck
Thanks for your help! I think your theory has the best chance of being right of anything I have seen on this board. Any other components you have inmind that may have taken some damage with that shock? I am going to call up the original installer and speak to him about this even though he is not in the business any longer I am still going to make my concern known. Thanks again out of everyone on this board I found you the most helpful!
Other than what Tom had to say I agree dead issue and regarding the vents outside I wasnt at the house any longer I gave my best description based on what I saw, I have noticed alot of stuff has been taken out of context on this board like at one point I described the apartments the units were heating and someone said I admitted the units were improperly sized, I dont even know what the proper size is so how could I say that. One final thing I noticed is a few of these posts were edited and I noticed the 2 had been were negative towards Lochivar the only thing I can say is interesting.
Edited PostsWhen you see an edited post it is the poster editing his post. To imply that Dan or one of his staff edited anothers post is speaking on the integrity of someone that is well respected and a line you don't want to cross.
You really don't have an understanding of those that posted experience. We can tell when a boiler is oversized simply based on experience and knowledge. Those are awful small apartments and the smallest Lochinvar boiler would be oversized. I don't need a heat loss to tell me that. What I do need it for is to devise a piping, control and setup that keeps it from short chcling as best I can. That's the difference between a contractor and the heating professionals here that are trying to help.
True.The only posts I edit are my own.Site Administrator
Hug your kids.
BobSometime's the best thing said is nothing. Dan is an honorable man and this site is visited by those I consider the best in the field. You had a unit with a part that went bad. The warranty offered by the manufacturer expired..end of subject...Fix it and move on.
btw, edit one of your own post's and you'll see what it say's after doing so. Sometime's we assume, and sometime's we learn from mistakes....
Thanks for the insight, I am just going to pay the bill and hope I dont get hit with much more. I thought I was getting a top level warranty but upon further review it was the industry standard, that is my main problem and this whole thing go off track and I think we are all guilty myself included.
If I offended anyone with a post as you pointed out I am sorry for that. Good luck in the future!
Personally...I don't feel this situation is resolved. I asked early on for numerous different views of the near boiler piping. You gave us one photo, too far away to be able to determine what's going on behind the boilers. I (we) want to help, but you're the one running the show.
I am getting the outside impression that you are backing off of your claim against the manufacturer, which is fine, but we want to make sure that you don't end up having problems again (REGARDLESS of the manufacturer).
It also appears, for whatever reason, that you are somewhat paranoid. No one can change anyone else's posts. The owner of the site can and will completely yank a post if things get too nasty, but he will not/can not EDIT someone else's posts. ONLY the person making the post can edit it, and even if you go back into a post just to correct a typing error, the Admin notice is attached to the post.
For the most part, people around here are a fair bunch of people, and they are not out to get you. To the best of my knowledge (and I've been on this site since day 1) Paul is the only person representing Lochinvar posting on this thread. Others (including myself) are dealers of their product, but do not speak for them, only for ourselves, and our experiences.
Your call, post more/better pictures so we can try and diagnose your problem, or drop it and move on and free up space for others who are seeking help.
METhis post was edited by an admin on February 21, 2012 9:33 AM.
pictureEven with that blurry picture I see something I don't like.
And You can't say You didn't know to take a picture of the vent terminations - I asked for it. The exhaust pipe on the LH boiler looks to run downhill - this will trap water. It doesn't take much of a build up to cause problems, It doesn't have to actually block the pipe.
Also - Mounting those low water cut offs out on those 5 inch extensions like that is asking for trouble. Those LWCO's are supposed to be mounted directly on a tee.
With them mounted like that you will get a build up of crud under the sensor probe that will short out the probe ( what the water is supposed to do) and make the LWCO think there is water there when there isn't. These boilers were not installed by professionals in hydronics.This post was edited by an admin on February 20, 2012 10:13 PM.
MarkI havent dropped the issue but I think this isnt going anywhere at this point. I forwarded this blog to my installer and he told me he would write in. I got the impression he was insulted when he heard people on the board questioned the quality of the work.
I still think Lochivar should have helped me out with the blower part or atleast ate some of the cost. Hopefully the installer can talk more intelligently about these units if he writes in. As I said several times I am not a heating guy and this isnt my cup of tea, obviously it is your cup. If you can help me Mark I appreciate it.
Maybe next weekend I will be able to make it by to take additional photo's. Also what ever happened to Paul he went MIA on this blog?
Understood...No one likes to be criticized. I think Steve was simply trying to point out (validly so) that as installed, the Low Water Cut Off devices may be problematic. There really isn't much detail, and really other than Steves' one comment, I haven't seen anything that could be considered critical of the installer.
As the web site name implies, we are here to help.
As for Paul, I think he's had his say. No reason to continue the conversation. I'm certain that if you send him an email question, he will respond accordingly. He's good people, and we've know him LONG before he became a member of the Lochinvar family. He too was a contractor, working in the field.
Look forward to seeing the pictures.