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weil mclain gv gold lockout problems (104 Posts)
weil mclain gv gold lockout problemsI have a 15 y.o. weil mclain gv gold gas boiler which is driving me nuts. It locks out frequently especially on cold nights (in New England). Repair men have replaced the control unit twice to no advantage. One thing I have recently noticed (but it may not be new since I am not very observant) is that there is little or no water draining out the drain hose. I wonder whether rust may be clogging the drain at the boiler housing. I can snake a wire up about 20" and feel nothing unusual. Nor is there increased drainage. I can see that the pressure switch is closing. The controller lights go through the normal sequence but it fails to fire often and then locks out. Turning it off for a minute and then restarting will usually get it working for minutes or hours then it locks out again. I have replaced the igniter and can see a glow through the little spy window so I think It works. My temporary solution is to splice a timer into the power line and have it shut off for 15 minutes every few hours. I would very much appreciate any ideas about what the problem is. It cannot be trusted to work through the night on a cold night and has been that way for years.
What is themodel number and make of the Integrated Boiler Control? That will help me to determine diagnostic procedures.
Do the lights give any flash codes when you find it is in lockout?
lockoutThe control unit is a Weil McLain 1013-200
It has five leds
The bottom is green power indicator
The second (going vertically) is TSAT-circ
The 3rd is LIMIT
The 4th is pressure switch
The 5th is flame.
The usual lockout has the lights lighting sequentially but no flame light comes on
It then recycles and tries again—same result
It then recycles and tries again
After three tries it locks out and (I recall from memory) the bottom two red lights blink thereafter.
If I shut the power off for 30sec-1 minute it will often (usually) fire after that until it locks out later (sometimes minutes, sometimes hours.
One thing I did tha is a clue I don’t understand is disconnect the air intake from outside air and let it suck room air. There were very much fewer lockouts when I did that.
My amateur theory is that the inside air has less humidity and that there is less condensate. That is why I think the condensate line is the problem. If the water backs p in the firing chamber I expect it won’t light correctly. But as I say I can’t figure it out and I appreciate your interest and ideas.
Do you have any zone valvesconnected to this system? The bottom two lights TSTAT/CIRC and POWER lights flashing can indicate stray voltage on the external thermostat wires (often due to incorrect wiring on a 3 wire zone valve).
Disconnect the wires connected to the boiler thermostat leads (two black low voltage leads in the junction box)
Connect a voltmeter across these two incoming wires . Turn the thermostat up to create a call for heat. You should never read voltage across these wires if you do then there is something wrong with the wiring or if you have a 3 wire zone vale it may be wried wrong.
If there is no voltage is found on the external thermostat circuit, connect the two boiler thermostat connections together or jumper the boiler aquastat T - T terminals. Turn off the power to the boiler for about a minute. Turn on the power and allow the boiler to come on. Do the TSTAT and POWER lights still flash? If yes then the control module is faulty.This post was edited by an admin on September 17, 2010 6:29 PM.
weil-Mclain lockout issues.Tim: There is only one zone active. There is no voltage as you predicted. I may have mislead you regarding the flashing lights. That is how WM tells you there has been a lockout. By flashing these lights. It does not indicate, to my understanding, any error with the thermostat or power, rather lets you know that it is in a lockout state.
If you follow mySeptember 17 posting and the lights flash then the 1013 board is bad. I am taking that directly from the Weil McLain checkout procedure based on those particular lights falshing.
weil mclain lockoutTim,
Thanks again for your attention and interest and I am not challenging that representation but there is a fact or two I didn't mention.
The first (original) control unit had only four lights; the service representative who replaced it said that changes had been made and the new unit would have five lights (which it does). The second replacement was also of the 5 light variety which I identified in answer to your September inquiry.
I am perhaps wrong about which lights flash at lockout since it hasn;t locked out this season (yet) since it is not really cold. I will report which lights are flashing when the first lockout of the year occurs. I can hear the gas valve open at the appropriate time during the test cycles, the circulating fan is operational and sucking loudly massive amounts of air if I disconnect the outside supply, the pressure valve is opening and closing (I can see the gap), and there is a faint glow in the glass window which peaks into the oven when the igniter comes on. These all occur in proper sequence but after two trials it locks out.
On the original four light control unit (whose flashing codes are on a sticker affixed to the top cover of the boiler) it states: "...if flame is not proven in four seconds boiler recycles two times to retry for ignition before going into lockout...recycle ignition timing is thirty seconds"...the PURGE and the VALVE/FLAME pilot lights are pictured as flashing when lockout occurs.
I don't have a legend for the five LED control panel and I may not remember correctly which of the red LEDS flash. I will report that at first lockout.
Ignoring the lockout for a moment----can you comment on the fact that the boiler is providing heat just fine at present (40 degree nights) but no water is coming out of the drain hose. Isn't this supposed to be a condensing system? Isnn't that how the high efficiency is achieved? Shouldn't condensing systems put out water?
I am not expert at heating (as you no doubt can tell by my vocabulary) but am a scientific type and am puzzled by the lack of water drainage from a condensing system. I actually have disconnected the drain tube so that any water that comes out will appear in the galvanized overflow box which contains the whole apparatus and occupies the closet floor. Not a drop yet this fall.
The Gold is not a condensing boilerit is a mid efficiency boiler with efficiency around 84% AFUE so there is no condensate to come out of the boiler at all. It may however condense a little in the flue that is why you have to use AL294C stainless steel sealed flue. Some had a condensate trap in the flue that went down to a condensate pump depending on your local code requirements. However the boiler IS NOT A CONDENSING BOILER.
The original control that was used on these was a Honeywell S9301 with 4 lights and limited diagnostics. The United Technology board has extensive diagnostics. If you e-mail me your postal address I will send you some information on your control, my e-mail address is email@example.com .
Problem may be....The problem may be debris inside the combustion chamber and it may need cleaning after 15 yrs. It's been awhile since I've done it but you have to removed the inducer, ignitior and I think the orifice plate and gas valve. Then you vacuum inside and clean the burner and you will need a gasket for the inducer blower. I would not recommend doing it yourself without some experience and a gas detector.
If you've gotten 15 years out of this boiler, that's good but I would start thinking about replacing with a new mod/con. IMHO, it wasn't one of Weil McLain's better ideas
The boiler has never been taken apart and debris is on the short list of my ideas. There are some clues, however, that don't fit with that. The sytem is running perfectly now for many days with nary a lockout. It always works fine when the weather is chilly or a bit cold and it only cycles a few times an hour or less. It is only when the cold weather arrives, and the duty cycle increases, that the problems arise. Thus I relate it to water buildup (condensation not draining after a certain amount/minute is produced) or some other aspect of the increased duty cycle. It is a closet installation and the temperature in the closet doesn't change very much. It doesn't matter what the closet temperature is. I have also discovered that if I divert the intake air to inside air (as opposed to cold outside air through the wall fixture as intended) the lockouts disappear or occur very infrequently.
I'm surprised that 15 years is considered good performance for a gas boiler. I would have expected longer but I am not in the business.
Thanks for idea.
On reading and researchng I discovered that the GV Gold series has a stainless steel liner and stainless steel burners. I suspect that makes debris less likely although I don't know. I am surprised the intake air is not filtered except some very coarse spacings on the outside air intake. I imagine that leaves and other flying objects could be sucked in when it is firing.
Unless you are very familiar with gas equipmentI would have a proffesional check out the boiler. In the manual it calls for a yearly cleaning and service. Has it ever been serviced?Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
weil mclain lockout issueCharlie from wmass:
I had certified servicemen out three times to help with the problem and they never mentioned yearly service; in fact they said that with a gas boiler there is little maintenance. They did check the gas pressure with a manometer, and, of course, it would only lockout rarely while they were here (usually when it wasn't frigid outside). The electronic control unit was replaced twice. The first one was clearly defective with bad solder joints. The second one (the present one cited earlier in the link) acts the same way and I thus don't think it is the control unit.
Again, If this is a condensing unit shouldn't there be water coming out the drain. Even the trap (which is just a "j" shaped bit of black rubber tubing) is dry. I wonder if a dry trap may cause some ignition pressure issues since the dry drain would allow room pressure into the oven. But it is dry now and working fine.
To me the failure is related to the duty cycle (via the outside temperature being very cold when it locks out) and I am missing the significance of this clue. It makes for a poor heating system: one that is most likely to fail when you need it most.
Not all techs are the sameGV boilers are not the most common boiler out there. You may want to ask if you can get a tech more familiar with these units.Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
weil-mclain gv-gold lockoutsThanks for your interest and thoughts Charles. This is a very good site and I appreciate the professionals not making fun of my ignorance. It will be chilly in western Mass this weekend I am sure. Be prepared for some calls from city slickers like me who need heat.
What Charlie said....He may be certified but not a good service tech. Did he say where he set the manifold gas pressure? Hopefully he knew it's a negative pressure gas valve and didn't set it positive.
As a service tech, occasionally I'll come across something I'm not familiar with. The first thing I do is get the manual and if that doesn't help, I'm on the phone with tech support of the manufacturer finding answers. I've been in the biz almost 30 years and not afraid to admit I don't know it all. A good tech will use all resources to fix something.
BTW, The Gold is not a true condensing boiler, it's rated at 87%, right at the bottom of condensing range so you're not going to see water gushing out of the trap.
Maybe...I've battled one of these POS boilers with the same issues. Replaced many of the parts that seemed like the problem and still had issues. Finally replaced the fan motor which seemed like it was working properly but in the end it just wasn't moving enough to keep the pressure switch closed. I think there's a test tool to measure the air flow but I'm not sure. Knock on wood..... No call backs in a couple of years now.
These weren't the best design WM ever had so a replacement isn't such a bad idea. Parts are getting more scarce and more expensive.
Maybe...I've battled one of these POS boilers with the same issues. Replaced many of the parts that seemed like the problem and still had issues. Finally replaced the fan motor which seemed like it was working properly but in the end it just wasn't moving enough to keep the pressure switch closed. I think there's a test tool to measure the air flow but I'm not sure. Knock on wood..... No call backs in a couple of years now.
These weren't the best design WM ever had so a replacement isn't such a bad idea. Parts are getting more scarce and more expensive.
Weil-McLain GV-Gold lockoutsDan H,
You have bought a smile to my face and hope to my heart. I strongly agree and everything I read is that Weil McLain isn't the company they once were, in fact they are a crap company with poor products, poor warrnty support and poor attitudes. My slogan is: WEIL-MCLAIN: NEVER AGAIN. Maybe I could put it to music.
I like you idea for the following reason. I mentioned somewhere that if I disconnected the outside air hose and ran it on inside air the number of lockouts reduce substantially. I didn't know why. Your idea would say that the resistance to the input air was less because I removed the outside grate (which seemed very restrictive in the first place) and also I took out one elbow of resistance as well since I lay the hose straight indoors.
I have to run now but thanks for the encouragement. If it is the fan motor I can fix that probably by increasing the size of the intake port (funneling it down to the closet) or even finding a new motor.
As an aside they say DON'T USE ANY OIL EXCEPT 20 WEIGHT TO OIL THE FAN EVERY SIX MONTHS. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find 20 weight oil? I do. I have never heard of such a restriction ever put on any machine ever. I hate Weil McLain.
Thanks and I will get back to you on this welcome idea.
20 weight is easy to findit is at the plumbing wholesalers and electrical supply houses in little bottles for oiling electric motors. I am glad you oil your blower as many people do not then ask why it failed.Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
Parts have never been easy to find norhave they been cheap. I have some that run and run and some are constant problems. I guess they were Monday morning boilers.Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
Sounds likeyou need to have the local Weil McLain rep take a look at your problem. I find they are very ready to help out. I get a lot of e-mails so I am not sure if i heard from you on my offer to send you some material which may help you diagnose your problem. The offer is still there at firstname.lastname@example.org.
The continuing tales of W_M GV-Gold lockouts.Tim,
I did send the email and then resent it a few weeks later with the NOT SPAM designation prominent in the title but I guess they did not penetrate your filters.
It is still pretty mild here; only a few nights below freezing.
I did redo the ground by buffing one of the coper pipes in the closet (which connects directly with the copper ground rod which is driven about 6 feet into the ground in the basement) and clamping and soldering a large bore copper wire to it. I connected that to the ground connection on the boiler itself after burnishing it and surrounds. The boiler is on a separate circuit (except closet light and emergency switch) so I would doubt that wandering grounds or interference would apply anymore. I live alone and usually when the furnace locks out it is at night when no other appliances are running.
It has locked out 2-3 times in the recent weeks. The control board lights are as follows at lockout: There are five leds arranged vertically. at lock out the bottom led (power) is lit green and does not blink; the fifth led is red, labeled "flame" and is solid lit; the second led is blinking red (labelled "Tstat/Circ"); the 3rd led from the bottom labelled "limit" is red blinking; the fourth led labelled "pressure switch", red in color, is not lit at all.
To summarize the top and bottom lights are lit solid; the second and third leds are blinking red; the fourth led is not lit.
This is the consistent lock out pattern which I do not believe contains diagnositic information but simply confirms the lock out state.
I intend to get a manometer to measure the pressure switch differential when I next pass a plumbing supply store.
Thanks to all for the help and advice. I anticipate an increasing frequency of lock outs as the temperature drops. When that happens I intend to route the intake air with only one elbow in a short run to the basement through the floor of the closet. This should unload a marginal fan and may affect the lockout frequency as I recall it did when I trialed this a year or two ago. That would point a finger at the fan as culprit as suggested in another post.
Something is definitelyout of sorts here as you claim that when in lockout the TSTAT/CIRC led and the LIMIT led are blinking and that the flame light is lit that should not be happening EVER. The flame light lit is an indication that the gas valve is open and the burner is lit.
I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU GET A PROFESSIONAL IN TO LOOK AT THIS SYSTEMS!!!!
lockoutsI have had a Weil-McLain certified service technician (from R.I. where I live) out to look at the system three times, from two different HVAC companies over a period of three years. Unfortunately when they arrived it was not in lockout mode since I had need for heat. It locks out on the most bitterly cold days and I can't let the house pipes freeze to accomodate the service visit. Twice they blamed the controller and the Board was replaced. The third time, after an inspection and some measurements the serviceman said everything was in working order and to call him back during a lockout. That's why I am trying to troubleshoot myself.
I am certain that your interpretation of the lockput light pattern is from the Manual but I am also certain that the gas valve is not open (not even a whiff of gas around the unit or in the vent--the fan is not running---there is no flame in the window and it works fine by turning off the power for 30 seconds and then turning it on again. When there is a flame it is audible and there is no noise of any type in lockout mode; everything is cool to touch, etc.). I am convinced that there is nothing seriously wrong (because this has gone on for years literally) but some element in the control loop (I'm considering the block temperature limit switch on the top of the oven which is rusted partially from a, now replaced, leaking gasket on the circulator pump which it sits beneath) is intermittently telling the controller that conditions are not correct.
I appreciate everyone's help but am going to sign off the thread before I aggravate anyone further with what seems the musings of an amateur who has no common sense and doesn't realize that he is in imminent danger of an explosion. I may not have represented the situation fully but I have checked out the system in excruciating detail and I am confident (as an engineer and physician) that false signals are causing the lockouts. I will continue to search by the light of Diogenes torch (which I am sure was not a Weil-McLain product). Thanks to all. I got some good ideas from this forum and am grateful.
Pod I am not one to walk away from aproblem. There is always a solution I am here in RI give me a call at 437-0557 and we can talk. I also have the WM rep living right up the street from me and I have alerted him to your situation and hopefully he will drop by and read this posting. Manufacturers typically do not like to post here as they from time to time catch some abuse from posters. If he does happen to drop by let us all be polite and respectful of his willingness to help out.
I appreciate your note and will call you. I sensed I was getting under your skin and appeared obstinate about a service call but I am retired and cannot afford repeat service calls that are unproductive. I'm stubborn but I do honestly feel it is one of the sensors that fails when the work load picks with the very cold weather. You have been very attentive and helpful but I am as sure as I can be that there is no imminent threat (for the resons cited in last post). You provide a wonderful service with this help site and I didn't want to aggravate you or seem stupid in the face of all the very kind entries by all the posters. The engineer in me wants to troubleshoot the problem in a logical, orderly fashion. Your revelation that it was not a condensing boiler proves that I am not very bright but was very helpful in that I stopped perseverating on the lack of drainage from the condensate hose. That was a big step forward and simplified the troubleshooting algorithm greatly in my mind. Since you live in R.I. (remarkable coincidence) you know that the cold weather has held off making the lockouts much less frequent. Talk to you soon. Thaks for your graceful and professional replies.
Have you checkedFor loose neutrals and bad grounding? Check all junction boxes and even the electric panel. Units that use PCBs are very sensitive to proper electric wiring. On very cold nights, you may have another electonic appliance that runs and causes interference, or you may not be getting proper voltage. I've taken a lot of manufacturer's troubleshooting classes, and they always stress the importance of sound electrical connections and proper voltage when dealing with electrical problems with their units. Good luck!
HVAC/installerI have run into a few GV gold boiler where the boiler locks out and some are due to the heat exchanger is plugging up. Putting a manometer in line to check the reading on the pressure switch, it has to draw at least 1.5" wc. If it drops below this it will shut off .Assuming the venting, condensate line is clean and the induce draft blower is working properly. That means the boiler is pretty much shot since there is no easy way to clean it out.This post was edited by an admin on October 30, 2010 6:14 AM.
GV Lockouts:Just to add something else into this mix of good things to look at,
The lockouts seem to happen when it is very, very cold. Have you checked the gas pressure in the system when it is cold? Are you at the end of a line where there are a lot of houses?
Years ago, Amtrol came out with a gas water heater they called a "Super Hot Water Maker". It was slick but it had a habit of going out all the time. It was a disaster for Amtrol. I only dealt with LP models. It was a very cold winter that year and they went out like crazy in RI and SE MA. I installed three in a large house. They would do the same thing.
My solution was to check the gas pressure and raise it to 12", make a air shutter adjustment and combustion test it. It solved the problem. It used to "snap" when running until it got hot. It was condensing moisture on this coil it had.
The problem was that when the outside got cold, and everyone was using gas, the gas mains couldn't supply gas fast enough. The outside main volume dropped and caused problems.
It's worth looking into. There's a lot of GV's out there. All seem to have strange problems. All around direct venting. Regurgitation (sucking back exhaust through the intake) seems to be the hardest problem. Does the exhause face the NorthWest? That's where the coldest and windiest winds come from in NE and RI.
Just my thoughts, useless probably.
Icesailor you stated your problems wereon LP is that correct?
My solution was to check the gas pressure and raise it to 12", WAS THAT MADE AT THE SECOND STAGE REGULATOR? IF SO YOU COULD BE IN DANGER OF THE REGULATOR LOCKING UP IT DOES THAT AT AROUND 12.8" W.C. make a air shutter adjustment and combustion test it. It solved the problem. It used to "snap" when running until it got hot. It was condensing moisture on this coil it had.
YOUR NEXT STATEMENT BAFFLES ME EVEN MORE AS IT SOUNDS NOW LIKE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PROBLEM BUT NOW TALKING ABOUT GAS MAINS. TYPICALLY THEY DO NOT HAVE GAS MAINS ON LP SYSTEMS. WAS IT A JURISDICTIONAL SYSTEM?
The problem was that when the outside got cold, and everyone was using gas, the gas mains couldn't supply gas fast enough. The outside main volume dropped and caused problems.
Sorry for your misunderstanding. I was talking about both LP and NG.
I only deal with LP. In MY situation, I had problems with the heaters going off all the time. Because I put one on each floor, and the other in a cottage, it drove me crazy because they all did it. And never at the same time.
Plumbers' Supply in New Bedford had a guy named Arthur (with a Armenium last name like Aratuniun) working for them that was a walking encyclopedia of controls and problems. One fix seemed to be that the flame sensing rod was dirty. It never was but I would clean it anyway. They still did it. Over time, after a lot of discussions with Arthur, he told me about the problems with these heaters during that very cold winter. We discussed this and it was decided that the problem was the falling gas pressure from overuse. Like a brownout in the electric grid. I surmised that the falling pressure would cause the burners to be down rated and run cooler, screwing up the air/fuel ratio mixture. No way to fix that.
So, me dealing with propane, I knew my pressure was always constant. Or should be. So, I tested the pressure in the system. It was just below 10.4". I raised the pressure to 13" and the problem improved dramaticly. Being a oil burner type of guy, I know that increasing the pump pressure will raise the output of the same nozzle. There was no way of easily changing the orifice, but I could change the pressure. I didn't go over the range. I also knew that there would also be a change in air/fuel ratio. There was no way to adjust the the air but I noticed that I could make a air shutter out of a piece of sheet metal and slide it into the air shutter allowing me to adjust it. I did, and I found that changing the ratio stopped the snapping noise and that they stopped going off on flame failure. They ran until a major renovation and they were removed.
On my comments on the cold weather and it going off, what is happening at one time of year and not at another. From my accumulated experience, if it is severely cold, and it starts going off, what is different about that? Cold air is denser. Are they having a brown out in the gas system, locally where he is? These GV boilers seem to be quite sensitive to A/F ratios.
I just threw it out there for discussion.
There is another discussion here and I pointed out that a plugged nozzle strainer on a oil burner will lower the pressure at the nozzle outlet, causeing all kinds of problems. Soot being one of them. It's all related.
Does he live at the dead end of a line? Did anyone check the house pressure during these incidents? I'll bet not. I would have. But, that's how I am.
Do you understand now what seemed to be a contridiction now? I was speaking of my experience with LP that the solution came from a problem with Nat. Gas.
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
Consider this Tim,
I ask a lot of questions of folks that I think may have answers to my questions. Most don't think they have no answers. But I pick their brains anyway. When done, they almost always apologize for not being able to answer my question. To which I reply, honestly. No, I've learned a lot. I know more now about things than before I asked you. I may not know at this moment what that is but it may come to me at some moment in need. Or fit some piece into a puzzle I've been working on. Thank you for leting me take your time. I really appreciate it. And I mean every word of it.
Here's one for you.
There is a small Mod-Con boiler that I love. There are a ton of them installed where I work. They were the perfect replacement for Heatmaker. They had problems. Guys hate them who didn't understand the laws of physics.. They company has stopped making them because they got such a bad reputation.
I never had a problem really with them though some installed far more thanI. My friend Nat is an expert on them. I had one thatdid that thing that they did. Always going off. The company was big on venting, they they were regurgitating exhaust into the intake. There were spiders happily living in the intake. I changed the swirl plate. The swirl plate was what failed. The vanes would fail. I changed it to the latest model, made of the newest plastic. On later inspection of the failed swirl plate, evidence showed to conclusevly that the burner was backfiring and sucking the flame back into the swirl plate entrance and reburned. The evidenc was on only ons vane path. The venturi opening is seriously deteriorated from heat. Combustion testing Not a problem in four years.
I showed it to someone at a trade show. They tried to tell me I was wrong and why. Like you can see the sand bars at high tide.
I'll send it to you and you can see for yourself. They changed the design on the new burner. It can't suck the flame to be regurgitated.
If you plant a bush in front of the exhaust of a direct vented boiler, you will get regurgitation.
gv-gold lockoutsThis is a great forum. You guys just won't let me retreat into frustration. Tim gave me his home number and I intend to call this week. The boiler is natural gas not LP but I am at the end of a line and I do face due North with the through wall fitting. Some events bear on that idea though. The utility replaced the gas main nearly to my house. I would say that my underground connector is 80 feet away from the new plastic main. Nonetheless I will manometer the gas pressure since I am intirgued by your hypothesis. Back puffing the exhaust into the intake is also a good idea. That would explain why when I went to inside air the lockouts diminished markedly (during a cold stretch last year). It hasn't been that cold yet but I could test that easily by attaching a straight pipe (temporarily and while dark so the neighbors won't call the guys in the white coats) to the exhaust which extends straight out 5 or so feet from the house. I would do straight first since the issue of fan capacity has been raised and I don't want to add elbows. I'll use an adapter and go to higher diameter pipe during a lockout intense period when it gets cold. Great ideas that even I can understand. The exhaust pipe as you know is that grey plastic, very expensive stuff that was recalled. I have carefully looked for cracks and cannot find any, the joints were made properly with the suggested glue and I have a CO meter in the closet which has consistently read peak of zero (and I tested the meter and know it works). There is a cloud of mist like exhaust that appears during the cold (I expect most of the visible grey "smoke" is condensation as the exhaust hits the cold outside) and it could well be being blown back into the exhaust in the windy times. The wind here in the winter is primarily northwest so your idea has additional merit. Whe it is cold it is usually windy as well. There is a good fetch between my north wall and anything tall so the wind gets to wind up pretty good before hitting my house (which is on the water). If that proves likely after the experiment I'll separate the intake and exhaust or fabricate some kind of shield that won't increase the input impedance so as not to load the fan. According to the manual my system with a short 6 foot exhaust with two elbows should not load the fan unduly but then again you all seem to agree that this system was poorly designed and has a history of mystery lockouts to reduce the credibility of the manual. One of the posters found that replacing the fan eliminated the lockouts after other theories made no difference. The intake and exhaust are very close together as you know. Thanks to everyone. This is like having a bunch of skilled consultants spit-balling ideas with me in a classroom. I have to say this is the best forum I have ever entered. The only knucklehead so far is me who thought it was a condensing boiler. I'm getting educated though and I appreciate it greatly.
gv-gold lockouts--?blower motor.This morning the power went out and when it was restored the boiler would not start----three failed ignition cycles and then lockout. Tim: I had the light pattern wrong (sorry) the 1st and fifth lights were blinking and the second and third lights were solid red. I had reported just the opposite.
I disconnected the intake air at the base of the unit and let it suck room air and it fired. Repeated the experiment and again no flame with the intake air tubing connected; successful firing with the intake air disconnected at the base and drawing room air.
I interpret this to support the earlier suggestion that a weak blower motor may be culprit in this mystery. I can find the motor replacement for $135 and it look like an easy replacement without taking the fan assemply apart. At least it is a hint that air intake may be an issue. I snaked the intake hose and it is clear. I assume it is the added drag of the intake tube that is testing the fan motor.
What do the pros think?
Lockouts:More off the all coments from experience, but, of you have the brown exhaust termination, check to be SURE that the intake and exhause aren't switched, where the exhaust is venting through the intake side and the air intake is coming through the exhaust side. You would notice this if the siding is all wet when the unit is running. I saw this installed twice on the same building. It was a matter of two boilers, side by side, venting out side by side but one had the exhaust, left and right, right and left. They had a problem with mirror image transferring from inside to outside. I always take a magic marker and write inside the pipe which is intake and which is exhaust. So I get it right when I go outside. Then, I write it on the sideing. And I can still screw it up.
A bad fan can really mess you up.
I've also had rodents chew the small control tube lines.
Keep it up. You are getting there.
Also, put a piece of plywood a few feet in front of the outlet and see if it improves. If it does, fan motor.
Does that fan motor run hot?
Pod fromWeil McLain
Tim Have him call our tech line. 800-368-2492 when the voice prompt comes on dial 101 and wait. You may have to leave a voice message. He'll get back to you within an hour.
basic stuff hereSo no one has pulled the blower to access the burner for cleaning? What kind of factory certified guys are they? Probably factory certified in sales like most of the training classes I've been to. I think I suggested this about a month or so ago. Of course the inducer is not going to pull enough air if the burner is clogged. Tarv mentioned using a manometer to check your pressure switch but you need to know the burner isn't clogged first. I've removed many a Miller moth from GV burners especially if it has an indirect that used year round. Don't forget to order a new gasket before you or a certified technician attempts this
Good point:Good point Slim,
I've had oil burners that didn't run like they once had and wouldn't deliver the air they once did. I took the fan/squirrel cage out and cleaned the INSIDE of the vanes of their accumulated crud. Like a aircraft propeller, having the leading edges of the fan covered in crud will wreck havoc on the air pressure. I was truly amazed at the amount of crud and the huge improvement in performance. I will have to mention this to my friend, the gas service guy. I've heard him speak a lot of things but not this.
Wrong oil on fan motorMost will use regular 20 weight oil.
Over time will prevent the motor / fan from producing enough volume of air.
It requires synthetic Anderol 486.
This might be mentioned on the side of the motor.
Switching to Anderol 486 might fix the problem.
or aleast replace the motor and oiling the unit your self.
Don't let anybody use the wrong oil.
Replace the gray pipe even if it looks OKMy gray pipe was OK,,,or so I thought.
It was replaced under the recall program.
The metal part with the drain, which connects the gray pipe to the boiler was cracked and some of the gray pipe joints fill apart when being removed.
Replace with AL294C and replace the connection to the boiler and outside vent.
Very expensive project
Might be better to buy a new boiler that uses PVC as a vent.
Just a thought: Why pay someone when they didn't fix it,
I never charge for a part that didn't fix the problem.
I have the identical problem!Hello all,
I found this post while searching for the problem w/ my Weil Mclain Gold GV boiler. I live in SE Michigan area and today/tonight has been the coldest day of the year. I came home about an hour ago to a 55*F house and dropping... it's probably in the 20's outside right now. :(
My house and boiler are both 19 years old, but I've only lived in the home for just over 2 years. I know the 1013 was replaced once before because the old one was left behind as evidence.
My WM-1013-200 box is doing the same thing as the OP of this thread. I came home to the 1st LED (green power) and the 4th LED (red pressure) flashing, the 2nd and 3rd lights are solid red, and the 5th one off. I reset the power to the unit and left the room for a few minutes... when I came back the status LED's were the same as they were.
I should mention that the last two winters I've lived this house, that the intake/exhaust fitting on the side of the house does ice up around the bottom and often the ice forms a big icicle to the ground (about 18"), but I've never had a problem with the operation of the system until today.
There was no more ice than usual on the intake/exhaust today than usual, but I did go out and knock it off. I have the system off now and am about to restart it to see what happens. My next step will be to disconnect the intake from the blower and let it suck room air like the OP did.
Ok, I turn on the unit and the 1st green, 2nd red, and 3rd red light up for a few seconds and then the two red go out.
The green stays on by itself for a few seconds and then the 2nd and 3rd red come back on.
After what seems to be about 3-5 minutes, the green light starts flashing and the 4th red light comes on flashing.
I noticed a slight humming. After investigating I noticed it's coming from the blower motor... the blow motor is only turning the blower at about 1 revolution per every 4-5 seconds... it's super super slow!
I turned the power back off. I can spin the shaft on the motor (while it's connected to the blower) with my fingers with very little effort. This tells me that the blower and the blower motor ar not siezed.
What should I check next? Should I verify there's 120VAC going to the motor?
Thanks again! To the OP, sorry to hijack your thread, but I need to get some heat in this house ASAP!!! I'm going to make the dogs sleep in bed with my wife and I tonight.
HOT!... and the motor is pretty hot too.
Gold Lockouts:Replace the motor and fan assembly. If it doesn't turn up to speed, the draft prover switch won't close.
Bad MotorI applied 120V directly to the motor leads and it just barely spins... definitely nowhere near the 3400rpm it's labeled as.
blower motor replacementIf you apply 120v to the motor and it doesn't move much that seems evidence that it has seied (ostensibly from lack of oiling, or maybe through some other failure in the motor itself). It is easy to replace and costs $135. It is a Fasco moter that is supposed to run at 3400 rpm. Google will easily find the ID. Prices range from $100-150 but most seem about $125. Google: Weil McLain GV-Gold blower motor replacement. The instructions are even available on line although it is pretty obvious. You do need a long allen wrench to loose the cage from the shart but other wise no particular specialty tools. The allen wrench comes with the motor as I understand.
This assumes that the allen screw which attaches the fan squirrel cage to the motor shaft is tight.
It also assume that there is 120V being delivered to the motor when in the machine (i.e. that there is not a transformer failurure).
I think it would be unusual for it to go from normal quiet operation to seize without a period of noisiness from the fan. If you are in the cold; I would vote for a motor replacement to solve the immediate problem. On line or Graingers or any HVAC supplyu store supplies such motors routinely. Fasco is one of the larger moter supplies for such units. Perhaps after the fact you can diagnose the fault when you have the old motor out. The replacement is easy, a DIY project.
A solution maybe....1 cold week without a lockout.My installer agreed to come over and diagnose the problem and teach me what he could about the system. What a great opportunity.
First removed the intake hosing and examined the gas mixing orifice which looked clean and proper. Then removed the blower assembly (you need a replacement gasket if you do this....they are $1.68 from pexsupply.com..get a couple). The blower assembly is a carburetor--it mixes the intake air and metered gas and then blows it through a two cone assembly which fills the orifice between the blower assembly and the boiler proper to force the gas/air mixture into jets of fire.
Observations. The fan motor was quiet, cool to touch even when running, and came up to fixed speed quickly. The squirrel cage fan assembly was as clean as new with no dust trailers or other signs of dirt. The allen fitting was tight. The silicon seals were all intact. I think the fan is fine despite the puzzling improvement with inside air (i.e. disconnecting the outside air connection and sucking inside air reduced the lockouts dramatically).
The cone assemply is really two cones. The inner, slightly smaller, stainless cone (with about 15 large (dime sized oval side holes) looked new. The downstream, fine screened cone (which snugs right over the SS cone was also clean with no debris (or Miller moths); Both came out easily after disengaging them from the gasket material which had pretty much press flowed to seal everything at that connection. The screen cone is tack welded in six spots, five of them had separated but the one remaining seemed to keep the cone in place sufficiently. With the carburetor section now removed you could look right into the catcombs of the boiler. There was a collection of uniform, reddish-rusty colored debris (not ash exactly, somewhat heavier, I would guess a collection of rust from the cast iron surface of the boiler sections). which was sitting at the bottom of the venturi behind the cones the way snow stays behind a stonewall when it is windy. It shadowed the orifice but did not appear to occlude it in any way. It quickly vacuumed out. The remainder of the gas pathways in the boiler were cleam (using a flashlight and mirror).
We replaced the hot surface ignitor and gasket which attached to the plate with four studs which attaches the blower assembly to the boiler oven. The old one appeared to work (i.e. glowed more strongly for 5-10 seconds and appeared pink orange hot). We figured what the heck put in a new one. I had ordered a new block temperature limit switch but since the old one appeared to be functioning I'll keep it as a spare.
Reassembled the unit and fired it up and it has been without lockouts for 8 days of cold and windy new england weather.
Conclusion: No obvious defect was found. I doubt the small amount of amorphous debris was affecting anthing. It may have interrupted some of the jets from the cones (those on the inferior surface near the gasket) by mass effect. Don't know.
In the end it may be a simple as the new igniter. Reading about these things they can appear to be functioning and nonetheless fail to cause ignition. I would say this is a good lesson. Replacing the igniter every five-seven years would seem good mainttenance and at any time the lockouts start to appear.
Re: oil for blower. I went to the two largest HVAC supplliers in R.I. and neither had dispensers of 20 weight oil, neither had heard of anderol 486. They both offered a pull out spout container of thin clear oil which ("is what everybody uses for boiler blower fans"). I continue to maintain that the instruction to "ONLY USE 20 WEIGHT OIL" is vague. I think it should say use a lubricating oil that has no additives or detergents and which is thin at room temperature. One source suggested nail gun oil. In any case, as a amateur I have yet to find a source of 20 weight oil. If the requirement is that esoteric, they should supply a small dispenser with the boiler. I mean you use 6 drops per year.
It is such a relief to have a reliable boiler for once especially now that the winter is closing in. I have taken more from this forum that any other internet site. I want to thank every one who contributed.
I would say that a reasonable handy person who respects safety concerns about shutting off the gas and electricity before going in could service the unit every three years or so without any issues. Judging from the 15 years this one has been in service, it is a well built unit. I owe an apology to Weil McLain. It is tempermental (as it seems all higher efficiency boilers are) but actually quite simple in design and built of good materials.
Finally, I came to a realization about high efficiency boilers (including the new condensing, very high efficiency ones). The money you save in energy will be redistributed to service calls for maintenance and for the inevitable diagnostic visits when the control circuit gets tempermental. I would take an 85-87% efficient unit and go with that rather than try to squeeze 5-7% more efficiency out of a very high efficiency unit. They are by design heavily controlled with multiple sensor inputs (including outside temperature), they can vary the energy output to suit the conditions (two phase heat), etc. The price you pay for this exquisite energy capture is the increased likelihood of lockouts whether legitimate or spurious. Since I spend about $1500 per winter to heat, a ten percent savings would pay for one maintenance service call per year. I'd rather let some of the energy go out the exhaust to be free of lockouts.
I want to thank everybody expecially Tim McElwain for maintaining a truly professional and helpful site. I understand a little more about my world and the devices which I rely on for a comfortable home. Best wishes to all. Happy Holidays from a warm R.I. home.
Thanks for following upHope you have a warm holiday season. I am sure I speak for many here that it is really nice to get a thank you. One last thought I did have one a few weeks ago that had a bad weld on the cone. That causes lots of funny stuff to happen.Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
You're welcomeYou are welcome Charlie. It feels so nice to have a reliable boiler. You are familiar with the cold winters here in N.E. and it is a terrible feeling to go to bed and wonder if you will wake up with a lock out and 55 degree morning. I actually worried more about the pipes and was reluctant to take any trips that would have me away for many days. My neighbor volunteered to check it every night but that's quite a nuisance for him.
Regarding the spot welds on the mesh cone. Only one left of the six to hold it has me a bit nervous but one of my winter golf partners is a welder and he says take it out and bring it over. I will do that if the GV acts up again. Now I know where to look and how to check the inputs to the controller, so I am optimistic that if problems arise again I can pop the carburetor off and get the cone done within hours. Actually I am trying to locate a supplier but it only comes in a kit for $140 with a new igniter and gasket (an probably contains the stainless over-cone which I don't need to rerplace). If that last spot weld lets go I expect to find the inner mesh cone blown deep into the throat of the boiler's straight runway. I find the placement and orientation of view hole in the blower assembly almost impossible to use for visualization of the flame (strange angle of view is required b/o other parts and supports).
For now I am satisfied that it is working well and I'll hope that continues through the winter. If not, thanks to you folks at this site, I'll be able to undertake a logical sequential troubleshooting trip into the cabinet. I feel very familiar with the territory. There's nothing like taking something apart and putting it back together to build confidence. As I said earlier, I'm impressed at how simple the operation of the boiler is once you understand the inputs to the control panel. I would love to see a diagram or visualization of the flame path through the catacombs and runways of the boiler--it is a GV-5 series one and has five heat exchanger sections that are silicon sealed together like a big sandwich. It hard to imagine that the flame from the cone at the Right bottom of this big multisection oven gets carried through all those passages. Maybe it is just a hot gas or plasma by the time the exhaust turns one of those corners and that is sufficient to give off its heat to the exchangers.
Once again. Thank you for your interest.
I would just buy the kitThe new cones seem to be a better configuration and you seem familiar enough to change it now. Plus that extra igniter could come in handy some January night.Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
cell # 413-841-6726
follow up on "lock-out" thread at six weeksI am glad to report that there have been no (as in zero) lockouts during the last six weeks of pretty cold and windy New England winter days. No new insights but man is it nice to trust my boiler to be reliable. I decided to route the air intake through one elbow from the basement (the boiler is a first floor closet installation cause I am in a flood zone and wanted the utilities higher than basement). Maybe it would work now if connected to the through wall fitting but I'm happy to make that a pure exhaust fitting.
Thanks again everyone. Happiness is a warm house.
Congrats!Similar problem to our 12 year-old WM HE II boiler (gas-fired, induced draft, hot surface ignition).
In the last 2 years, at no prior warning or sign, it just locks itself out randomly whenever it wanted to.
I can see igniter all glowed up, but just no flame came on. After 3 trials, it gave up. Then all I had to do was flip the boiler power off, waited a minute or two, and then switched it on. It would then be sure work for a day, days, a week, or sometimes weeks... then it failed again for me to do my magic to flip the switch.
So far, we replaced the gas valve, HSI prematurely twice, zone valves without any luck, and now we are down to try to change the control module board (UT 1013-100) which is $200 a piece plus labor.
Anyway, congratulations to your happy conclusion to your misery. wish us luck.(I guess we need more than luck here)
look hard at igniterMy experience has led me to believe that a glowing igniter is not necessarily a sufficiently hot igniter, or, at least, an effective igniter. It is a good idea to have a spare. I would replace the igniter with the new a before you spend too much more time or money. If it doesn't make a difference then so be it but it should always be suspect with intermittent lock outs. You may already have done this but I did not know that and assumed that the glow meant it was working, that is not the case. I did some internet reading on ceramic igniters...just simple google query....and found that not to be the case. Good luck.
Hot Surface IgnitersEspecially the older Silicon Carbide have distinct characteristics that troubleshooters need to be aware of. They are typically either a 17 second warm up or a 34 second warm up. Norton for example their 201 igniter is a 34 second igniter the 271 is 17 second igniter. Most over the counter sales of igniters which are distributed by either Robertshaw or White Rodgers are 17/20 second igniters. The important thing is a 17 second igniter can be used with a module with 34 or 40 second warm up, but a 17 or 20 second module could not be used with a 34 or 40 second igniter. White Rodgers by the way are the 20 second and 40 second modules. The module by the way actually controls the warm up not the igniter.
Next when troubleshooting you need a multimeter that is able to measure resistance in (OHMS) and current in (AMPS) along with voltage and microamps..
The RTR resistance that is Room Temperature Resistance of the 201 is 45 to 400 ohms the 271 is 40 to 75 ohms. They operate between 4.25 amps to 4.75 amps. So even though the igniter may be glowing it does not mean it is working correctly. The igniter when it is powered is at its maximum (cold) or RTR resistance. As it heats up its resistance decreases and reaches a point were the electronics will recognize it is safe to open the gas valve. At that point if the igniter is both an igniter and a sensor (direct sense or local sense) the igniter becomes a sensor and must generate back to the electronics in the module a microamp signal between 2 to 10 microamps, normal is around 3 to 5 microamps. If that signal is received by the module or integrated control then it will allow the system to continue running otherwise it will typically go back through several re-attempts to ignite and then perhaps go into a soft lockout ( can be a hour or more). The igniter in order to be a good sensor must be 3/4 to 1 " into the flame and 1/4 to 1/2" above the burner, the burner by the way is used as ground in this case for the microamp circuit. If the igniter is not to be used as a sensor (called remote sense) then a separate flame rod will be used.
In my manual Electric Ignition Systems Volume II we have a complete troubleshooting procedure for these systems. I can be contacted at email@example.com
igniterThanks Tim, I have ordered the replacement control module, this one is labeled as WeilMclain product and not United Technology which is the original one.
We'll see. I also ordered the original 511-330-188 WM brand HSI along with the harness. I notice the Norton 271Y that is there now just has two nuts connecting with the other end.
Yes, this will be our third igniter attempts.
I think you willprobably get a United Technology (with Weil McLain name) 1013-200 which is now pretty much the Universal replacement. Let me know if that is what you get. If you do it comes with a special circulator harness and a little jumper that has to be placed on the new board.
UToh. hope they have improved this and fixed all the glitches.
Anyway, here's what shown on the site where I bought it.
Yes that is the 1013-200from United Technology.
thanksThanks for the confirmation! Hopefully, this will fix the prior version of 1013-100 which is what we currently have installed in the HE boiler
f/u lockouts; one new questonI am pleased to report that since the replacement of the igniter and a thorough cleaning my WM GV-Gold 5 series 1 boiler has not locked out once in the following months of testing winter weather. Thanks to all. I love being able to trust my boiler.
I recently drained the system with a HVAC pro (had been about 15 years since original fill) and replaced the pressure relief tank and the low water fill valve. The drained fluid was water-like in appearance and ph=7 with no coloration or taste despite haveing had tinted glycol put in originally. I assure it was diluted out over the years (through refill valve) or that it evaporates (unlikely). Anyway refilled system with glycol/water mix and good to go. My only concern is that the low water fill pressure is 20 psi rather than the advertised 12-15 psi. If I drain a bit of water off the pressure will fall but then when I open to street pressure it creeps up to 20 psi and stops. In operation at 180 degrees the pressure creeps up to 25 which is nearer the pressure relief valve than I would wish
My question is whether there is an adjustment on the low water relief valve (Watts model S1156F) which would reset the valve closure to a lower psi. The Watts regulator says: set 12-15psi; range 1-25 psi.
Is there and adjustment that could be made to fine tune the psi lower. (the plunger and trip tab unscrew easily to reveal a deep well into which the copper rod sits. There is a threaded stalk and a hex nut visible. Can this be adjusted.
I realize there is an alternative: (1) bleed the cold system to 12 psi; (2) shut off the street water ball valve; (watch the system over time to be sure the pressure does not fall due to leaks or venting drips). This essentially makes me the fill valve. I would prefer to have it happen automatically. Any instructions?
It could be a bad valve. We did probe the piping and there was no crud to speak of before replacing the low water relief valve. Is the low water relief valve setting adjustable within the 10-25 range? Thanks.
Found solution to low water valve adjustment. Never mind.When everything else fails read the instructions. None came with the valve but on-line watts.com did answer the question. Most of the low water fill valves have a locknut on a threaded shaft. Loosen the locknut and turn counterclockwise to lower the pressure set, clockwise to raise it. I backed the shaft off (CCW) a few turns and now it is at 12 psi when the system is cold. Sorry to ask and answer my own question.
This might help...Hi there I'm a heat tech in Montana. Sunday I found this thread because I got a call about a boiler in Big Sky with the same symptoms. Following the troble tree from w/m, I replaced the module...No help. Then by accident I happened to see the boiler work and then cut out...the call for heat was fluctuating. In this particular system the boiler was signaled by the end switch in a Taco pump box. The switch in the box was closing, but intermittantly going off and on and possiblly not letting enoug current to get back to the boiler. A good way to see if you have similar problems would to be to wire the two black wires in the boiler(labled 24v to t-stat) together...Basically just jumping the endswitch. Reset the boiler and see if it acts normally. If so you need to look at what is signaling the boiler(t-stat,pump box, etc)
I have always assumed that a end switch is just a simple there or not continuity check, however this is the second time I've seen something similar...It seems that some solid state devices might make contact, but they don't allow enough current through them. Just my findings, Hope this helps!!!
Got the same ProblemI am new to this forum and need some help. My 6 year 3 month old Weil Mclain Gold GV4 boiler has been acting up.
First I lost heat this past Tuesday. Called my regular HVAC repair guy
out. After about an hour of checking, found out that my circulator pump
was not running. Only the by-pass pump was running the system.
Got a new circulator pump installed the next day. System got back on and ran for about 30 minutes and then shut off.
The LED's were flashing the trouble: 'TSAT CIRC' which reads 'Frozen boiler water prevention activated'.
In this mode the circulator pumps keeps working but the gas gets shut
off. My repair guy messed around a few minutes then shut off the power
for 45 secs as noted, turned it back on and the unit fired up again.
There lies my problem. The boiler keeps shutting down after
approximately 30 minutes( I have timed it on several occasions). So for
the past couple days I am running down to the basement to reset the
Should I replace the water temperature sensor ? I have now zipped tied
it to the main return pipe in its original location to see if it needed
to make better contact with the pipe.
Is my GV4 circuit board faulty? Once the house temperature reaches the set point it shuts off the unit and the LED is all green.
Also I have noticed that the temperature on my thermostat goes about 5
degrees below the set point before it calls for heat to refire the unit.
Does my programmable Thermostat need replacing? it is only 1.5 years
This morning (Sunday) got up to a cold house 61. Went down to the basement again
reset. Did that for 4 times at 30 minute intervals the went to church.
Got back at about 10:00 and my furnace is still running
Kept running until it hit target at 70 now i am waiting to see when it will kick back on.
Anyone out there have had this happen?
Let me know your thoughts.
No thoughts just wantto know if the control board is flashing any codes?
I suggest you read this entire posting as it will give you some education on your system. That way when your repair man comes you have some idea as to which way to go. The worst thing to do is throw parts at something find the problem then if parts are needed go ahead.
What is the number on your control board on your unit?
lock outs.I had the problem you have.
Two inexpensive ideas which solved my problem just before I committed suicide.
1) Replace the hot surface igniter. They fail at about 7 years and it is not apparent that they failed since they still glow (not enough and not at the correct time). They are relatively cheap (
Gold GV4 cut off issuesTim yes the LEDs are flashing I have the 1013-200 board. Only thing different from the unit posted above is that my LEDs run horizontal not vertical
Pod you mentioned two cheap fixes, the igniter but did not mention the other
I have short circuited the thermostat a couple hours ago and that has kept the unit going now. My room temp is up to 71.5 and rising very slow. Been there for about 45 min.
Should I then replace my thermostat ? This is frustrating and here in the dc metro area is the coldest we have been all season.
Let me know
Which lights are flashingwhen the unit will not run. We can diagnose the problem by determining the lights flashing.
Before you replace the igniter do a RTR test and also check the amperage when the igniter is glowing should be 4.25 to 4.75 Amps the resistance should be 40 to 75 ohms.
Do you have the manual for your unit?
I bet you got it...I'll bet you just solved your problem...read my post above, it seems if whatever is signaling the boiler(t-stat in your case) isn't making perfect contact, it causes these things to do wierd stuff. If you're jumping the t'stat wires and the boiler seems to run normally, I'd start with a new t-stat...their cheap!!!
lockoutsSorry, my note got truncated.
Tim is right; the diagnostic information in which leds are blinking and which are not is very helpful.
On the other hand as you have suggested the thermostat may be malfunctioning. In that case, you are doing the right thing. Close the thermostat circuit and see if the boiler functions properly (watching it of course to keep temperature in tolerable range). If shorting the thermostat solves the problem then there is no problem with the boiler. Replace thermostat. Cheap,. End of story.
If it doesn't then my first suggestion is to replace the igniter. Pex Supply on line has the part for $37. It is Weil-McLain part #511-330-148. Be patient when removing the present igniter the bolts will shear off if you apply too much torque. Use penetrating oil and change direction every other trial until you get some movement. The igniters will glow even when they are failing. There is a resistance measurement which will help determine whether the igniter is malfunctioning but I do not recall how to measure or whether it involves removing the igniter to measure.
My second thought was to have your HVAC pro take the blower assembly off and see if there is debris in the throat of the boiler. I had about 3/8" of a rust colored dust and grainy material about the cones in mine and vacuumed it out. It is about a one hour job (to take the blower assembly off) and you will need a replacement gasket for the junction. It's called a boiler flange gasket and costs about $2 at Pex. WM # 590-317-610.
It's a good idea to have a spare igniter handy in any case since they are said to have a 7 year or so lifespan. I note your boiler is 7 years old.
Let me know if you need other info. Sorry about the abbreviated earlier post.
I was perplexed by very frequent lockouts in the coldest weather but have had none since I did these two things.
Gold GV 4 LockoutsTim; as noted in my first post it was the green power and the first led 'TSAT CIRC' which reads 'Frozen boiler water prevention activated'. The owner's manual has basic trouble shooting but does not provide possible solutions to the LED trouble notices. I have a tester (with probes no clamps) so where do I connect or stick the probes to? the lead to the ignitor? See photo of my circuit board all lit up when the unit is working. Only the first 2 flash when the unit shutss off nad the gas led also shuts off
I have noticed that my blower unit blades appears to be hitting the housing now. I have wedged a tooth pick between the blue washers and that seems to balance the fan motor so that it runs quite again.
Pod; I will be purchasing an ignitor and see if it works.
Yesterday when I shorted the thermostat and my heat was working I noticed that the water temp never got up above 150F. Is that the set point temp for these units?
adjusting water temphttp://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/gv-boiler/gv3users.pdf
This link will open the users manual. In the exploded view #5 is the water temperature limit switch. It has a star wheel which can be turned to adjust the water temperature. It is mounted high on the Left side of the cabinet and the pressure switch (a drum shaped cylinder) is attached to it.
Did the thermostat turn out to be the villain?
If you go to thewww.Weil-McLain.com website and look for the manual for your boiler it will give you charts 1 thru 8 which will give a more complete diagnosis and troubleshooting for the lights.
To test resistance cold (room temperature resistance) on the igniter set the meter to ohms disconnect the igniter from the board (unplug) place leads from meter on the two pins on the igniter harness,
For measuring amps it is easier if you have an amprobe which can clamp around the igniter wires when it is glowing to see what amperage you have should be between 4.25 to 4.75 anything outside the resistance or amperage replace the ingiter. With no amprobe then cut one of the igniter leads and place the meter on the AC amperage scale and connect in between the two wires then initiate a call for heat. The wires can then be reconnected with a wire nut. This will not affect the ingiters functions at all.
Gold GV 4 LocksRight now the temperature setting on the wheel is at 190F but my gauge only reads 150F. I have the owners manual. Have not replaced my Thermostat but will do that today along with the ignitor when it comes in.
I am not talking aboutthe owners manual I am referring to the Installation and Operations Manual which is much more complete than owners manual.
Why are you replacing the thermostat and igniter that is just throwing parts at the problem and not solving it. Save your money and call for a tech who understands your system or contact Weil-McLain.
lockoutsI see no problem with buying an igniter since having a spare is a good idea. It is the part that needs replacement most often and if changing igniters solves the problem then it is a quick and easy solution. If not, you have a spare for when the original one fails.
As for the discrepancy between the 180 degrees set on the star wheel and the 150 degrees shutoff point, I am puzzled. If the cylindrical copper sensor (which connects to the star wheel apparatus via two capillary arms) has migrated out of its well on the exhaust manifold a little then the opposite will happen (temperature goes higher than set). There is a clip to prevent this but it is flimsy.
I would just try to move the star wheel through its excursion fully (low to high to low to desired) just in case one of the steps in the sensor has somehow bound up.
Pressure switch makes briefly put then led flashesI have read thru PODs entire thread and learned a lot, and I am not sure if this is the correct place to post a different type of lockout or non start.
My GV 5 Gold has for nearly all its 9 year life failed to make the pressure switch. The Pressure switch led come on briefly then goes out. If you put a volt meter on it, as I recall it s been a while, get close to 24 volts but not quite or gets there and then drops quickly. Anyway, I have replaced the pressure diaphram switch years ago and it continues. It is very intermittent. Sometimes working weeks other times trying I hate to say 20 times or more. Sometime after many trys it will start other times I get so sick from it I power down the system so I can chill.....literally.
I just tried taking off the input kinky hose off the plastic inlet piping to see if it was a weak motor. It failed the first try. The amps of this motor were tested some time ago and it was right around 1amp as I recall. It does sound different, can not describe just how when it starts sometimes but have not been able to connect the dots.
I did find part of a bees hive at the grating at the inlet and fished that out hoping but no go. Maybe some more extras are up at the squirrel cage assembly?
My system has 5 elbows and about 12 ft of pipe for the 4 inch inlet. I check from outside and find no extras. Since it still fails when the kinky hose is disconnect I guess this is not the trouble.
Can the trouble still be the ignitor? Is that any way in the mix prior to pressure switch closed?
I also checked the motor shaft to squirrel cage screw and it is tight.
Would the thermostat have any relation to a fail at this point?
Shutting system off sometimes helps with first start after but not always.
Very frustrating does anyone have experience with this particular fail?
Have you had a professionalcheck the differential pressure across the pressure switch with a digital manometer?
Has the boiler been serviced and cleaned?
Has anyone taken the combustion air blower apart and cleaned it?
Has anyone checked the gas pressure on the unit?
Have you tried completely disconnecting the vent system and see if it runs fine without it connected. This should be done by a professional. If it runs with vent pipes disconnected then you may have blockage in the vents.
Pressure switch makes briefly put then led flashesHi Tim McElwain,
Thank you for the response.
I did have a professional look at it but it was not failing at the time. I am an engineer and able to fix almost anything. I am not over confident and realize that I may have to call but I would not know who and if I can avoid that I need to. I was also part of a mass layoff and have not found work and can not afford any attempts to fix or not fix so I need to repair myself. I have repaired very sophisticated electromechanical systems so am rather competent but like others on here just need some pointers. I honestly can not afford a bill right now. I have been writing cover letters and resumes...rather character building it is.... I am having to break from that to be sure to fix this before it out right fails and we have no heat or hot water.
I could use an explanation of the pressures on each side of this switch. What is the red tube and the white tube and how to they behave during operation to make the switch.
I understand the differential concept. Not sure now what the set point is but I know it is not adjustable as others I have worked with.
A detailed theory of operation of this switch would be helpful and maybe help others too. For example.. Does the motor create suction just for intake air? What else is involve with the pressure switch.
The differential across the pressure switch has not been tested.
I would appreciate your help or anyone elses that wants to help someone in need.
This system has done this practically since day one. I know I should have had the installer fix it. They gave me a new pressure switch and that made no difference. It was and is so intermittent I made me to forget about it for times. Then it fails but then it always works again.
It should not be because it is dirty... not unless it was dirty from day one. or that is compounding another problem. I will clean it if I have to but if there is an easier solution I will concentrate on finding a job first.
I am about to order the gasket and clean the combustion air blower. I will order parts and need to know if the igniter is in the circuit for a fail at this point. I measured the resistance of the ignitor and it was 160 ohms. Is it the gasket that POD detailed a few post back for the combustion air chamber? As he wrote It's called a boiler flange gasket and costs about $2 at Pex. WM # 590-317-610.
The gas pressure has been checked a couple times and it was in spec. Does this have anything to do with a fail before pressure value is satisfied?
I did disconnect the kinky hose below the combustion air chamber at the end of the 4 inch intake pipe as mentioned I my initial post. I found a piece of bee hive that stopped at the coarse grate.
I put my hand over the hose and it has strong suction. During that time the pressure switch did not try and come on. When I released my hand the switch made correctly and the flame came on.
I have also thought It was the motor not producing enough air but it does spin up and create fairly strong suction. I know that does not measure it. It still fails with the hole off with out the impedance of the piping, 5 elbows and about 12 feet to get out the sill vent.
I have used the bell and gossett #20 oil that the installer gave me when the system was new to oil once a year. I read about using only synthetic and that troubled me some. I heard no one else post other than POD saying it was hard to find 20 weight oil. Check Bell and Gossett for this. They are pump makers so I don’t know if this is the correct oil.
It was John Menken that said to use only Anderol 486 synthetic. The B&G is a mineral oil, not synthetic.
I have always noticed when oiling the fan motor that one of the oil inlets accepts oil and the other does not.
Does the gas pressure have anything to do with a fail prior to pressure switch made?
What are the two pressures on each side of the switch? Red tube and white tube.
Please tell me the theory of operation in detail of this switch.
Again, I will appreciate very much anyone’s help. From reading the entire post the POD started I am rather impressed with the helping nature of this site. I did not see anything mentioned about cost which is a miracle this day and age. I am very capable and learn many new things so next time I can learn more. I would be glad to help anyone with any info that I could.
What Integrated Boiler Controldo you have on this unit?
Do you have the Installation and Operation manual for the boiler?
What is your location?
Have you contacted Weil-McLain about this since it has been doing this since it was new?
How old is the unit?
Get me answers to those questions and I will walk you through a complete sequence of operation and troubleshooting.
5 elbows sounds excessiveThis is POD and I do not have GV-5 as you know but part of my solution was to draw my intake air from the basement (I have my boiler on the first floor because I live on the water and the basement floods every few years) and forego the common connector which W-M intended to serve both intake and exhaust. As long as your house is not too tight you can draw combustin air from inside the house.
Do you have elbows in the air intake side? I would simplify the intake.
You are correct, however, that if it fails even when you disconnect the corrugated black hose then the impedance of the intake hosing is not the answer. Nonetheless I would avoid so many elbows if possible since the pressure switch senses air flow into the blower. If the pressure switch has been replaced and did not fix the issue, the fan motor may be suspect. Failing motors are slow to get to speed I am told. The fasco motor which comes with the gv-4 is up to speed within seconds. When I took it apart I could load the shaft with my fingers (withthe fan running) and it would keep on pulling with good torque.
As a first step you could short out the pressure switch (with a jumper) and see if it fires and keeps going for a bit. Of course you can't do that for a long time since incomplete combustion would raise CO levels, etc. But for a few minutes nothing bad would happen and that would isolate the pressure switch part of the equation. If the system locks out with the pressure switch shorted out (it is normally open and closes when the flow is sufficient from the blower) then the PS isnot the problem but the problem is upstream. This is conceptually a way to isolate the pressure switch from the blower flow. Remember the impedance to input air is only part of the load on the blower. There is output resistance as well and five elbows sounds excessive. It is hard to imagine five elbows over a relatively short 12 foot run. Long term you need to use the recommended exhaust ducting of the recommended material but as a short experiment you could rig a more direct exhaust route (say with the flexible dryer aluminum hosing) and see how that affects things. Obviously you can only use such a "trial vent" for a few minutes and should keep an eye on the temperature but for a 5-10 minute run it would be safe.
Good luck. This is a good site and thread. Folks are very helpful. You need to keep a somewhat thick skin since inevitably you will be scolded for trying to do what a HVAC pro should be doing but as you note, finances don't always allow frequent repair trips from a pro. Good luck keep us informed.
Summer is on the way and you will have time to fix it and get it right before next winter.
Go to theWeil-McLain website and look for the boiler manual for your unit.
Do you have a FAX number orcontact me with your postal mailing address and I will mail you the troubleshooting procedure. My e-mail is firstname.lastname@example.org
Pressure switch makes briefly put then led flashesThank you for wanting to help. I am looking forward to learning how to fix this and more about theory of operation. I am a bit stressed with having to get out some cover letters and resumes. If you have never had the pleasure or it has been awhile count your blessings.
I do have the the maintenance and install manual.
The control module is 1013-200 UT Electronics Controls
I did contact WM some years ago, but can not remember the results, How long is the warranty? I think they tried to be some help, but said I had to call the installers. I was not so impressed with them so did not want to do that. Also there has never been much I could not fix. Last week it was the washer drive coupling that I replaced.
Thanks again. As much as fixing it I will enjoy a better understanding to prepare for the next failure challenge.
I live in VT.
The system is 9 years old.
It could not be more intermittent.
I am sympathetic to your dilemmaI was down sized out of a major utility in 1994 while home recuperating from a heart attack. I was 53 years old and making over $75,000 per year with full benefits and six weeks paid vacation a year. It is never easy but here I am 19 years later I get no weekly pay check and I have survived. You have to re-invent yourself and use the friends you have hopefully made over the years in whatever trade you were in. It helps to have Faith that God knows your dilemma and he will be there to help you.
Now to the problem at hand if I can get some contact info from you I will mail you (postal mail) some procedures for troubleshooting your unit.
The hot surface igniter has nothing to do with your problem as the pressure switch has to make before you go into igniter warm up time and finally ignition.
limit circuit closed 3rd light,i installed a new integrated control panal cost em 275 bucks and after hooking up it gets to third light and flashes and nothing else, what does it mean limit circuit closed? it has plus in smaller then old one on unit and have to press it in by hand to get power feed can this be the problem?
you shouldCall a pro with testing equipment instead of wasting money changing parts.
Hodge the limit light flashingalone indicates that the return water temperature sensor (thermistor) is shorted. You did not need a new board apparently.
okSolved most issues but now it heats water but doesn't go thru statement. Niether hot water of base board just heats water temp gauge good etc .
Did youreplace the water temperature sensor?
Limit lock outMy boiler recently starting locking out. At first the TSTAT/CIRC LED would blink on and off so I removed the wire from the aquastat and the LED would stayed on and the circluating pump also turned on. The minute I reconected the aquastat wire the circulating pump turned off. I checked the transformer voltage and it's at 25 volts, should be fine. I decided to change the control module and now the TSTAT/CIRC LED lights up and the Limit LED blinks on and off. I changed the high limit switch that mounts on top of the tank and hook up another aquastat with no luck. I accidently, for a split second, grounded one of the aquastat wires and it started. The boiler will cycle with no problems for about 12 hours and it locks out again. A very quick grounding of the yellow aquastat wire and it runs fine again.
Boiler is a series 2, GV5.
Also, I recently had a generator hooked up after we loss power for 5 days due to hurricane Sandy and noticed the boiler wouldn't start at 118 volts but when I increased it to 122 volts the boiler worked fine. I never had a problem prior to the generator running the boiler.
Anyone have any ideas?
FOUND THE PROBLEM - The T85 switchs in the Honeywell zone valves were bad. My basement was flooded over a year ago and I stripped the boiler prior so nothing was damaged. After reassembling the boiler and changing the zone valve motors everything was fine until recently. I went to my local electronics store and purchased new switches, had to cut the tabs down but they work fine. Mayber there was enough contact in the switch to send the signal but not hold it on.This post was edited by an admin on December 2, 2012 7:28 AM.
Boiler won't stay runningI had this problem last year.
The control module (1013-200) lights all light up but the last then as soon as the flame starts the pressure light turns off and it never has all of the lights on. Last year I pulled the red hose off the pressure switch and it ran until the cycle was done or I connected the red hose back to the pressure switch. I replaced the pressure switch and it was good for at least 6 months. Now it is doing the same thing. The motor was replaced 2 yrs ago and the module was replaced 3-4 yrs ago. This boiler is at least 15 yr old if not 20 or more. I checked the trap and it was dry, there are no obstructions in the venting with only 2 90* elbows and a total a 25' or less of venting to outside.This post was edited by an admin on February 13, 2013 10:02 PM.
pressure switch opening after ignitionIn my boiler you can actually see the pressure switch close if you sight down the aperture. Is your's closing then opening?
The pressure switch is to confirm that air flow is sufficient to support combustion. The draft of the air flow across the cannister pulls a diaphragm and that closes the switch. I can think of no reason why the flow would be good at start of cycle and then fall off with ignition. Without continuity of the pressure switch, combustion will not be supported since the message is that there is insufficient air flow.
As a first trial I would remove the intake air hosing and let it draw room air. If the problem persists then you know it is not the resistance of the intake air conduit hosing. If the problem goes away then there is some restriction in the intake air supply.
I eventually disconnected my intake air from the through-the-wall adapter and let it draw basement air. I believe the through wall fixture in the early WM high efficiency boilers were not optimally designed and there could be interference between exiting air out the hot pipe and intake air. If the grate is clogged with leaves or snow the intake air would be compromised. These are some thoughts.
More issues...I cannot see it opening and closing.
The intake air is already taking room air. There is a make up combustion air supply feeding into the room that the boiler is in, the air source is from outside.
Now in addition to the issues with the pressure switch (or what ever the issue is that I first posted about is), the control module started flashing some codes. The power and flame LEDs were blinking and the boiler was not operating. I noticed this when there was not any hot water for the kids baths. I turned off the power to the boiler system and turned it back on. It took 2 cycles for it to stay running.
Any ideas on what the code is trying to tell me?
This boiler has been a real pain in the butt.
**I just found and read the trouble shooting in the manual. It looks like the igniter may be bad.**This post was edited by an admin on February 17, 2013 10:29 PM.
How do I find out what BTU I have?This thing is getting old, if I were to replace it down the road, how do I determine what size it is? There is a number on it, I don't know if it is of any use or not - 550-223-116.
Have you gone through theChart #5 checks in the manual? If so is that how you determined the problem was the "igniter"?
Somewhere on the igniter or wire to the igniter there should be some numbers other than Weil McLain part numbers can you find those?
Some other things that can cause this to happen is the burner is dirty or corroded. How do you get your air for combustion to this unit? Is it from outside (better option) especially if there are contaminants listed in the I and O manual.
As for BTU look for the rating plate and on the plate it will list "INPUT" that is the BTU rating.
IgniterYes, I went through the checks in #5 and came to the conclusion that it may be the igniter. From what I am told it had been replaced 3 or so years ago and has been replaced at least a few times.
I'll check the igniter for the number on it.
The combustion air is going into the room but not connected to the boiler.
Is there a way to clean the burner if is it dirty or corroded?
It requires someonewith experience to pull the burner and clean it. The failure could be the result of a poor flame condition caused by the burner. Get in touch with a professional and have them also do a combustion analysis on the burner after cleaning. It would be a good idea to also replace the igniter at that time.
Thanks,I will contact my installer
GV series 2 lockoutsHi, I have been following these posts as I was repairing my GV Series 2 boiler. I have experienced intermittent lockouts for the past 2/3 years or so but they were generally infrequent enough so as to not result in further investigation of the possible problem. Recently (2 weeks ago) the boiler failed to run and any attempts to get it to do so were met with NADA. Upon troubleshooting I finally determined that the blower motor was not coming on even though it was getting power. The motor was able to spin freely but powering it seperately would not get it to turn so I ordered a new one. Upon removing the motor I found that the capacitor was leaking as there was a sign of oil residue on the blower housing. Not a great deal but enough to trap airborne dust and leave a tell tale sign. One of my questions is this: Are you supposed to remove the motor & housing from the boiler in order to remove the motor? I ask because nothing in the manual suggests that and the question then arises how do you keep the blower wheel from falling into the housing? I saw that this would occur and was able to secure its location with a pair of vise grips on the collar. Also I noticed that both the blower housing and the manual state very emphatically DO NOT OPEN THE BLOWER HOUSING. WHY?? It is also worth noting that the particular motor in my boiler was MUCH more expensive than the average price mentioned. $400 with no trade discount and $273 at the only other location locally who gave me the trade price. I searched online and could not find a better price for my motor on numerous sites although other similar motors were much more in the $135 range. Any clues as to why? Just curious. Any responses would be appreciated as it helps to fill in the blanks in the knowledge base.
similar problemMy WM HE II model gas boiler had a similar trouble years ago. Just after I bought the control board replacement for it, we managed to solve the problem.
It turned out it was the more expansive silicone nitride igniter that we thought it would be better to our boiler. After changing out a number of parts without much luck, we figured this fancy igniter was something we put in instead of the original part.
So we removed that and put in a new cheapo compatible igniter, our intermittent lockout problem had disappeared.
My problem is solvedI was having issues with the boiler not staying running and issues with the pressure switch. I had a tech out and he cleaned out the fan fins (it was completely caked) and he cleaned out the cone. It works like new now. He put a new ignitor in as well, but that was not an issue.
retired hvac guyIntermittent boiler lockout. I have a 19 yr old Weil Mclain Gold boiler GV4 series 2 model. It started locking out at the start of this heating season. I thought it was the the control module so I purchased a new one along with a new ignitor. (Just in case) That didn't solve the problem so I bought a new pressure switch. This was all on advice from my local Weil Mclain guy. Still no fix so I started looking for something simple and obvious. What I found was water in the condensate trap kit. ( That's the little clear plastic box that all the vacuum lines go into.) At first I thought it was suposed to have water in it but it wasn't. It must have just accumulated in there over the years. In fact it was blocking the white vacuum line from the pressure switch so that at boiler startup the pressure switch would close as it should from created blower vacuum but at boiler shutdown water in the trap kit would block the vacuum line and not let the pressure switch open back up. This created a very infrequent lockout condition. It might only happen every couple of weeks. Unit has been working good for the past few weeks. The new parts weren't a bad idea due to the age of the unit and now I have some spare parts in case I need them as backup in the future. Hope this helps someone in the future.
ty...that is helpful.