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    Vibrating Munchkin boiler??? (96 Posts)

  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 6:18 PM
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    Vibrating Munchkin boiler???

    I have a Munchkin t80m boiler w/ a 925 controller. I recently installed this boiler in my home. At a uncertain stage of operation the boiler vibrates uncontrollably followed by a burp sound. How do I fix this problem???
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  • N/A @ 6:32 PM

    More details,,,,

    How did you size this Munchkin for your needs????
    They are a good boiler.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 25, 2010 6:32 PM.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 6:46 PM
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    Munchkin

    Its for a small 3 zone radiant system w/ a 36 gal. hot water maker. I piped it up as per Munchkin Spec Drawing 2D in the installation guide. Except I have mixing valves between the supply and return before my pumps.
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  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:23 PM
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    Vibrating

    You either have a hydraulic problem or you have a combustion problem. It's doubtful that there is a control issue, though it is possible. I know that's a general answer but  your info is very vague.

    I would lean towards a combustion problem. What gas? L.P. or natural? What is your incoming gas pressure? What are the numbers from your combustion analysis? Particularly co2 and o2. How long is your vent run and how may ells in it? Is it properly graded @ 1/4 per ft. back to the boiler? Where and how does it terminate?

    From the hydraulic side, you could be making steam from air in the system or insufficient flow.

    Please post some pics of the near boiler piping and the vent piping or a diagram of your piping.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 25, 2010 8:25 PM.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 8:38 PM
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    Munchkin

    I'm from NJ where my nat gas pressure is around 2 lbs.I vented it w/ 2" pvc pipe w/ 2 ells on intake and 2 ells on exhaust. The linear run of each is approximately 21" w/ pitch towards boiler. I dont have a CO meter to measure O2 and CO2 levels.
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    This post was edited by an admin on November 25, 2010 8:39 PM.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 8:46 PM
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    Gas Pressure"

  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:20 PM
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    Where You live...

    Has nothing to do with the gas pressure on the inlet of the boiler. It needs to be measured with an accurate manometer. If it is actually 2psi at the boiler, then you  need a regulator to step it down, but it still must be set with a manometer. This is critical. Then the fuel to air ratio must be set with a combustion analyzer. These things cannot be done by guessing or generalizations.

    Again, you may have flow issues.

    Please post some pics or a piping diagram.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 9:25 PM
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    Munchkin

    Pic posted. I piped as per Spec 2D in the installers manual.
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  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 9:24 AM
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    Gas pressure?

    I am from New Jersey as well (NJNG) and when my church had heating problems (heat exchanger clogged with soot, for one thing), the gas company came out and tested some things. In particular, the gas pressure was wrong, so they replaced the regulator. They then set the pressure to 7" with a water manometer. I cannot remember if this was with the furnaces running or not.

    I live two blocks from there and I know the pressure down the main in my small street is about 15 psi, so I assume the regulator by my house (at input to gas meter) takes the pressure down to 7" as well.

    For my boiler (W-M Ultra) the I&M manual says 13" maximum with no flow, and 5" minimum with gas flowing at high fire. Since water gauge pressure is 0.434 psi/foot, 12" pressure is a bit less than 1/2 psi. If yours is 2 psi, something needs to be done. My boiler does not have a pressure regulator in it, unless you think its gas valve has a regulator hidden in it.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 8:26 PM
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    Munchkin

    I heard I need to calibrate the gas valve? Yet, I was told I can only do this w/ a CO meter. HELLLLLP!
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  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:33 PM
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    Gas Pressure and Co2...

    Can only be checked with the proper (and expensive) equipment. This is one reason that only a pro should be selling and installing this equipment. I would suggest you check the "Find a Contractor" tab above. You need a pro.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 8:40 PM
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    Vibrating Munchkin

    What does that mean. You have a restriction in the primary loop? That will slow down the flow through the boiler? In my opinion, you shouldn't have ANY restrictions in the primary loop that can allow the water to flow slow wnough to flash into steam. It will do it in a heartbeat. These are really tough little boilers. They got a really bad rap because installers didn't read the instructions and piped them wrong. Then, they blamed the boiler for their mistakes.
    Is it LP or Nat. Gas. It makes a difference. It must be set up properly by someone who knows what they are doing with them.  I don't consider myself one of those.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 9:14 PM
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    Munchkin

    Pic of my boiler
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  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:35 PM
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    Very nice workmanship

    But if I'm viewing your pic correctly, your piping is wrong. It appears that you don't have primary/secondary piping or a primary pump. This means that you're not getting sufficient flow through the boiler which could be your problem. When the mixing valve(s) begin to bypass, you loose flow through the boiler.

    Please post another pic or two from a different angle so that I can confirm that I'm seeing this right. Also one showing the pipes going into the boiler.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 9:46 PM
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    Munchkin

    Behind the expanion tank is a Taco 007 pump. Its piped primary/secondary w/ the tee's next to each other.
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  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:00 PM
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    Not Piped According to Diagram 2D

    Take a closer look at the diagram. The valves in Munchkin's diagram are flow checks installed after the zone circs., not mixing valves before the circs. When the mixing valve(s) bypass, you're not taking any heat from the boiler and flow stops in the primary loop.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 25, 2010 10:06 PM.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 10:11 PM
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    Munchkin

    I have flow check circ flanges after each circ. The mixing valves are for a radiant system. I installed my mixing valves as per my suppliers directions.
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  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:51 PM
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    Mixing Valves

    Are stopping flow in your primary loop when they bypass. Your supplier was wrong for this piping arrangement. Munchkn's 2D diagram is for a high temp loop, not low temp radiant. You should be piped like 4A with the vision1 and a high limit.

    Are you trying to maintain the same temp in all the loops? If so, then turn the temp on the mixing valves all the way up and set the heating control on the boiler to about 80 - 85 deg. and let the boiler maintain the water temp in the loops. The boiler will stay in condensing and be much more efficient that way.

    You would still need to address your gas and combustion issues.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 9:41 AM
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    trying to maintain the same temp in all the loops?

    I assume not. He needs relatively low temperatures in the heating loops, and relatively high temperature in the indirect water heating loops.

    In some mod|con boilers, the boiler can put out (at least) one temperature for heating loops, and another temperature for an indirect heating loop. The way the piping is done here, the controller would need to make sure the heating circulators are off when firing at high temperatures for the indirect. And you would want the indirect circulator off when running any of the heating circulators. It is not clear that the controller of the Munchkin can do that (I am not saying it cannot); I got the impression that the Munchkin could be set to run at any one temperature desired (within a reasonable range). Also, we know nothing about the controls connecting the various thermostats, aquastat, and circulators in this system.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 12:07 PM
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    Radiant Loops and Vision1 Controls

    JDB,

    I was referring to the radiant loops. Obviously, the indirect needs high temp.

    The mixing valves should not have been used in this application. When they reach their set point, they begin to bypass all the flow into the radiant loop and flow ceases in the primary loop. When this happens, the only flow through the boiler that's taking place is what's in its own loop going actually in reverse through the closely spaced tees. Since the volume of water in the boiler and its loop is so small and the heat transfer so rapid, It can flash to steam and cause the kind of problem this poster is experiencing

    Had he used the Vision 1 controls and piped the indirect off the boiler loop as the instructions show, the boiler could maintain the low temp needed in the radiant loops and high temp to the indirect when it calls.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 1:50 PM
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    Obviously, the indirect needs high temp.

    About those mixing valves (that I agree should not be there), I do not think they affect the flow rate in the primary loop at all. It is true that they could affect the temperature of what flows in the primary loop though.

    If I understand the picture, it is true primary-secondary, with the circulator of the primary loop hidden behind the expansion tank, and the closely-spaced Ts just to the left of it.

    Now if the mixing valves go into bypass mode, it is little different than if the circulators in the secondary loop turn off. The significant difference is that whatever shuts off those circulators would presumably also stop the firing of the boiler. The main idea of primary-secondary piping, if I understand it correctly, is precisely to make the flow rate in the two circuits independent. So if those mixer valves bypass everything, the water temperature entering the return of the primary loop would rise very quickly, and I would hope the control of the boiler would reduce the firing rate appropriately (in this case, to zero, I suppose).

    I know with my W-M Ultra 3, the control notices if the temperature increase in the primary loop exceeds 2F per second and, if so, shuts the thing down. It also shuts down if the temperature in the primary loop exceeds 200F. I do not know the controls of a Munchkin, but I suppose it has something like that to protect its heat exchanger.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:13 PM
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    Flow Rate

    JDB,
    You're confusing primary/secondary series piping with primary/secondary parallel piping. In this situation, the poster has (correctly) piped the system in primary/secondary parallel and the secondary circulators are what cause flow in the primary loop. There is no pump in the primary loop. Therefore, when the mixing valve bypasses the primary loop, there is no flow in the primary loop.

    I believe you are confusing the boiler circulator for a primary circ. The boiler loop is a secondary series loop off of the primary. The boiler circ. does not induce flow in the primary except between the closely spaced Tees. Again, there is no primary loop circ. in this arrangement, therefore, the secondary parallel circs. induce flow in the primary. That's why the mixing valves are incorrect for this application.

    I know we often confuse the terminology about what is called the primary loop with what is actually the boiler loop and that causes misunderstanding. If you were to pipe the boiler supply straight to the return (with a circ. in it) and then take the zones of that loop through closely spaced Tees, then the boiler loop would also be the primary loop.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 9:10 PM
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    We seem to be defining primary and secondary differently.

    Depending on who I read, some people define primary and secondary differently. I forgot about this. And you and I seem to be using opposite definitions.

    Let me call the loop that has the boiler in it the boiler loop; and I will call the other loop with the loads, the load loop. I do not believe this is standard terminology, but that should eliminate confusion.

    This is all the more confusing because the picture provided hides the circulator in the boiler loop completely, and the closely-spaced Ts are disguised behind the Spirovent. Not only that, the return part of the load loop is hidden behhind the supply part of the load loop.

    There is a circulator in the boiler loop, hidden behind the expansion tank. According to the O.P., that circulator pumps down from one (I imagine the one on the left) of the two closelly-spaced Ts to the return input of the boiler. All the other circulators, and the spurious mixer valves are in the load loop. Four of them look parallel, and the one for the indirect is actually a fifth parallel circuit.

    So this is a true primary-secondary setup, where the secondary, that I call the load loop here, is a bunch of sub-loops in parallel. (The load loop could be piped as a series loop with another bunch of closely-spaced Ts). And nothing that happens in the load loop can affect the flow rate in the boiler loop, though it will certainly affect the temperature in the boiler loop.

    The only troble with the mixing valves, if I understand this piping correctly, is the unnecessary expense, the unnecessary complexity, and the need to run the boiler about 15F hotter than would otherwise be necessary to account for the necessary temperature difference required by the mixing valves. If I (a non-professional) were to pipe this, I would have put the indirect across the boiler loop so as to eliminate the need to run the boiler loop circulator when heating the indirect.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:37 PM
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    You've Got It

    Another issue here is that connecting the indirect to the taco pump panel forces the primary to be a high temp loop all the time unless an isolation relay is added to signal the boiler that the call is for DHW. This is where the Vision 1 control would have resolved all these issues.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 9:11 AM
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    Loopy Munchkins:

    JDB

    As I look at it, it is piped like HTP calls for (without the thermostatic valves in the crossover).
    What I consider it not being a true primary loop is that the ends are not connected and are capped after the connection to the indirect. When the indirect calls, and I believe it is a highh temperature call, the primary loop is a closed loop with the indirect being part of it. When the indirect call stops, the primary loop is open and depends on the flow through the calling loop to provide cooling water for the HX. On low fire, this is OK unless the flow through the calling loop is too small for the flow needed through the boiler.
    I'm not in any way setting myself up to be an expert on this but there has always been something that I instinctively disliked about this piping diagram.
    On the Munchkins I have done, I always close the primary loop and do closely spaced tees to go to the secondary zones. Or I use bridge loops. But because I use zone valves, I have the primary call start the boiler and the primary pump so the boiler is heating immediately, with no restriction. And when the zone valve has finally opened, it starts the secondary pump.
    Being a plumber, my primary consideration is domestic hot water. I want all I can get. That delay in a small indirect can cause a run out. When push comes to shove, running out of hot water is far more annoying to the customer than whether his boiler is running at peak efficiency when the women are in the shower and they can't get the soap out of their hair.
    All the bridge looped primary systems I have seen are capped at the end and depend on all the water crossing over in then. If the valves were raised up so a bridge was made, and the valves installed in them, I think the problem would go away. Especially if the vibrating doesn't happen when the indirect is heating.
    Sorry is this was already covered.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 10:09 AM
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    I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

    Let me call the loops the boiler loop  and the load loop.

    In that case, the boiler loop is clearly a closed loop, from boiler output (that I call supply) through the closely-spaced Ts to the boiler circulator to the boiler input (that I call return).

    No if I understand the picture correctly, the load loop(s) are closed as well. The picture is a bit confusing, but if I interpret it correctly, the horizontal part of the load loops is the supply (hot) pipe in front, and the (cool) pipe behind it. These two pipes appear to be connected at the left side (as we face the thing), so the return water makes a u-turn and comes to the T that goes through the circulator into the return of the boiler. Now that thing is not the entire loop. I might even call it a header if it were a steam system, or a manifold. Now each  of the circulators in the load part of the system is connected to the front pipe and goes to a load and returns to the back pipe. That completes one of the load loops, of which there are five in parallel.

    My own system works a little like this, but there are only two parallel loads, one for downstairs and one for upstairs. The indirect is just connected across the boiler loop. If I had five heating zones, I would consider (I do not know what I would do; get expert design help, I suppose) doing the 4 heating zones in a series primary-secondary setup instead of a parallel one so that the changing demands of the various zones would not interact with one another as in the parallel case. And I would still put the indirect across the boiler loop because the control on my W-M Ultra 3 makes this the most sensible. I think this series approach in what I call the load loop is what you are talking about. In my system, with only two zones, I doubt it makes much difference since my system is zoned with circulators. But if there were more than two zones, it could get a bit confusing as to interactions between the loads. And there, I think piping it as you suggest should surely be considered. I would put the zone with the greatest heat demand first (my living room) closest to the closely-spaced Ts, and the smallest demand (my room with two large computers) the furthest away (measuring from where the hot water enters the load loop).

    I do not know if any of this has anything to do with the vibrating that was the original problem. Those who suggest combustion problems have my intuitive acceptance, especially those who worry about intake and exhaust pipes being too short, and gas regulator too close to the boiler (that may have its own regulator in it).

    I do not notice any regulator in my WM-Ultra 3. The regulator is outside the house, and it is at least 20 feet of one-inch pipe to the boiler that has 1/2 inch pipe going inside (for gas). There is a "gas valve" inside the boiler that may be a regulator. It is said (I hope I describe it right) it delivers zero pressure and the air flowing past it sucks the gas into the burner. The amount of gas is proportional to the air flow: no flow, no gas. This is to keep the gas/air ratio the same even as they modulate the air flow to adjust boiler output. I guess they could call that a regulator. It sounds a lot like the carburettor of an internal combustion engine, but they do not need a choke, and accelerator pump, and stuff like that.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:55 PM
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    I don't think you are giving the SIT controller on this boiler enough credit...

    I have installed a LOT of Gianonni's with the SIT controller on it, and it is much more intelligent than you might believe. If it sees a significant rise in temperature across its inlet/outlet, it KNOWS there is no flow or load and will immediately start rolling back the RPM's and flame strength.

    As for semantics, and the use of primary versus secondary, that battle has been raging since Gil Carlson conceived the concept way back when, and it still has yet to be finalized.

    One person says the primary is where the heat source is.

    Another person says it is where the PONPC is.

    Some people will say that the heat source is the primary, and any other take offs are secondaries.

    I've designed and installed systems with multiple secondaries, some as heat inputs and some as heat outputs. Some with multiple and varied heat sources.

    Personally, I call the loop with the PONPC the primary, and all other branches secondaries.

    That aside, I see nothing wrong with his installation. THe boiler has its own pump, and is capable of seeing a no, or low load consideration and should react accordingly. Is it the perfect and ideal installation? No, but it does meet the manufacturers requirements as it pertains to piping. What if he doesn't want, or need DHW prioritization, and the 3 loops are low temp applications? Then what he has installed is correct.

    And the boiler could care less what direction water flows through the tweener tees. In fact, there could be ZERO flow between the tees, and the boiler wouldn't care, in fact might be extremely happy :-) Ask me how I know this...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 26, 2010 9:57 PM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:55 PM
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    Reverse Flow in Tees

    Mark,
    I didn't say the boiler "cared" which way the flow was going through the Tees. I was simply explaining what was happening to the flow when the mixing valves bypassed. I was speaking conceptually.

    As far as not giving the boiler's control system enough credit to respond when flow or heat transfer comes to a halt, I've seen better controlled boilers flash to steam with the same piping arrangement. - Ask me how I know. :-)

    But I would have to respectfully disagree with you about there being nothing wrong with the installation. Running a mod/con at high temp, and then mixing it down to low temp when there were only low temp zones (excluding the indirect) defeats the design of a condensing boiler and makes the system far less efficient than it could be. Not to mention the extra parts and labor that went into the install that weren't needed.

    Please don't misunderstand where I'm coming from. I think this poster did an excellent job given his level of understanding of hydronics. In fact, his workmanship is so good that I'd hire him on the spot if he were looking for a job. I just wish he'd gotten better advice about the mixing valves and the Vision 1 control.

     And I sincerely hope that we're able to get his problem resolved.

    Happy day after Thanksgiving
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 26, 2010 11:01 PM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:41 AM
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    Bob...

    No disagreement here. But we don't know the end users applications. If he has panel rad's and radiant floors and radiant ceilings, and baseboard, he may need the mixers to avoid over driving the other loads. Also, if he didn't know about the application of the Vision 1 control, or were not certified (remember it used to be that you had to be certified by the manufacturer in order to gain access to the Vision 1 controls) then what he did was applicable and appropriate. Maybe not the most efficient, but functional none the less.

    You and I think more alike than you realize, but we can't control every situation we come across. I am of the same attitude as it pertains to appliance efficiency. The cooler the operating temperature, the better. But even if he did have access to the V1 controls, and he had the above mix of uses, it may have been necessary to apply the mixers anyway, no?

    None of us really know the end use emitters, because we haven't asked yet, but what he has should be able to put out heat without creating problems on the water side of this system.

    I had a KBN 286 that fired without the boiler pump running the other day (locked up out of the box) and the SIT control saw it immediately, and shut the burner off before it hit the high limit. I was impressed. The boiler didn't even do the low mass dance :-) Which means my sphincter didn't have to do the momba, and my feet didn't get happy and try and run away from my stupified body ;-)

    Those Italians are a pretty smart bunch (SIT control is Italian)... And Lochinvars engineers are even brighter for employing the SIT control in their product.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 12:07 PM
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    Agreed

    Mark,

    My only concern with any manufacturer's controls in this instance is how fast the heat transfers from the block to the thermistors and then how fast the thermistors respond and "send" that value to the control. No doubt, You and I have both seen where flashing happened before the control could respond.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 3:48 PM
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    how fast the heat transfers from the block to the thermistors

    I have no numbers, but I suspect it is pretty fast in my W-M Ultra 3. Each thermistor is actually two for reliability. The control even checks each pair and they should be pretty close. One pair is in the heat exchanger where the cool water returns and the other is also in the heat exchanger where the hot water exits. These are in what I have been calling the boiler loop and the boiler circulator, or the DWH circulator, must be on when the boiler is firing. The burner is completely inside the heat exchanger which is a single aluminum casting with a second casting on the front that can be removed for inspection or cleaning.

    If you look at page 5 of this brochure

    http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/ultra-series-boiler/ultratechlit.pdf

    you see a cutaway view of the heat exchanger with the burner inside. At the very top right you see a fitting where the hot water exits the boiler (the supply to the heat load). In the very same part of the casting where that fitting is screwed is  another tapping where the double thermister is screwed. A similar setup is at the bottom right for the return, but you cannot see it in this picture. Now for my 80K BTU/hr boiler, the heat exchanger holds about 3 quarts of water. I got the impression (I no longer know where) that the boiler circulator moves (Taco 007) about 6 gallons per minute. If this is true, I get 8 changes of water in the heat exchanger per minute. The piping here is mostly 1 1/4 inch, and is about 5 feet long, so about another quart. For the whole boiler loop, there are about 6 changes per minute.

    So I imagine the question is how fast do the thermistors respond. If they are fast compared to 10 seconds, their speed should not matter. I do not know how fast the electronics of the control board are, but they should be quite fast. I do not know how fast the gas valve and draft inducer can stop the boiler once the control decides to do it. My impression is that when the controller decides to stop firing, it goes into a postpurge cycle that lasts about 10 seconds. So I guess that is how long it takes to stop firing.

    I am too lazy to calculate how fast 80K BTU/hr can heat a gallon of water., but with that boiler circulator, I imagine it is quite thorougly mixed. I do not suppose that boiler loop can dissipate the heat if no loads are active. 5 feet of 1 1/4" pipe will radiate and conduct some away, but not much.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 10:10 PM
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    control

    i dont have a vision control thats why i used the taco control w/ dhw priority.
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  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 11:15 PM
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    question

    my taco controller gives me dhw priority. I have a check valve on my priorty pump. is this a problem w/ a 007 pump? this boiler was made in 4/2005. i dont know if it vision 1 or 2. how do i identify it?
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  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 10:27 PM
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    When did those unions get rated for flue gas?

    I thought they were for inlet air and water use only. Also are they pressure fittings? the radius is kind of tight for air flow. The vibrating is a clear indication you need to get a professional in and do a combustion test. Also the 007 may be too small for the boiler's required flow rates.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 10:45 PM
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    Munchkin

    They're full port unions for cleaning. They are pressure fittings w/ about 24" linear run each. Theres a 12" gap from exterior.
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  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 10:48 PM
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    also

    the 007 pump is fine by specs.
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  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 10:52 PM
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    Did it meet specs

    for the 007 when the check valves are figured in?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 11:17 PM
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    good question

    it does for the heating. yet i got one for the primary too. not on my spec sheet. do you think thats a problem?
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  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 10:51 PM
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    I was concerned about the gasket material in the union.

    The only PVC unions I have available have an O-ring gasket. I do not know if this is what you have. I like the union idea but I would not use them on the exhaust. The piping is nice and neat. I do think you need a combustion analysis.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 11:07 PM
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    Thanks Charlie

    They do have a o-ring. I sealed them w/ a hi temp grease to protect them. Do you think my piping is incorrect for a radiant heating system? can you suggest a meter I can purchase for a low cost yet effective?
    SUPER SERVICE WITH A SMILE!
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 9:48 AM
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    O-Rings

    I am not a professional, and do not know the code for these. I do know that petroleum grease is very bad for rubber items, so I hope if your code permits that you used an appropriate silicone grease.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 11:00 PM
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    You did use 1 1/4" for the boiler piping?

    Where is the circ for the indirect tank?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 8:52 AM
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    Where is the circ for the indirect tank?

    I believe it is the one to the left of the Indirect Tank, just higher than the top of the tank.

    For the W-M indirects, the hot water coming in from the boiler goes into the bottom of the tank. Those pipes should be 1" for W-M boilers putting out up to around 105,000 BTU/hr, 1 1/4" up to 155,000,  and 1 1/2 above that. And use Taco 007, 010, 012, 014,  and 013, depending on the boiler and tank size.

    My table assumes a W-M boiler, so may not apply to a Munchkin.

    W-M recommend 190F water going into the tank; I happen to use 170F because my hot water demand is low (one-person, not a teenage girl), and I can tolerate a little slower recovery rate. But at that temperature, I have seen fit to insulate the pipes to and from the indirect with 1/2" thick black foam.

    It looks strange to have the makeup water entering the system at the hot water intake to the indirect's outer tank. But I guess it does not matter because not much water should enter the system after the Spirovent gets all the air out.
  • Henry Henry @ 8:18 AM
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    Install

    PVC sch 40 unions usualy have viton O rings. These are NOT suitable for any petroleum based substance including natural gas. Buna N is required for instances of pretroleum based contact. The fact that you put grease on them is actual worse. They will at one point start to bloat and detereoate!

    Standard pumping installation require 5 dia before and 3 dia after any pump. This does not apply is you use  suction diffusers as in thelarge comercial jobs that we do. In our install we have standardised at 5  dia on either side. With all those elbows and the mixing valves you have a lot of turbulance and loss of flow. With the loss of flow, your boiler cannot desipate suficiently and is making steam, thus vibrating.
    Seen this many times before! We repipe the install to proper piping standards and sometimes have to resize the pumps.
    These Ginonnani heat exhanger do not all have the same flow restriction (head). Every so often, we get a two boiler setup with the same number of elbows and lenght of pipe but one boiler will only fire up to 80%. We replace that boiler's pump with one with more head to solve the problem.

    While it looks neat, you do need a pro and combustion test. Please chuck the unions! It woiuld not pass inspection in Canada.

    Henry
  • icesailor icesailor @ 10:39 AM
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    Munchkin Wiring:

    First of all, this install looks like the demo install of a trailer used to demonstrate Munchkins and how they work. With all that aluminum diamond plate on the wall. Nice though.
    Second, aren't there two circulator leads in the munchkin? The first one is for heat and the boiler comes on at low fire, slowy ramping up. And the second one is for the indirect where it comes on at high fire so it starts heating water immediately and there is no restriction because the water heater indirect is actually part of the primary circuit?  Something about that concept bothers me but they're smart and I'm not.
    I found this out when an electrician winged it on a wire up and I had to figure it out.
    And I agree with everyone here that the mixer valves are causing too much restriction in the promary loop. Had it been done with "bridge loops", it would have worked. But not with a restriction on the crossovers.
    Set the mixers for maximum hot, then on all three and if the problem goes away, that's the problem.
    You guys here sure know your poop. It's a joy to read this stuff.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:47 AM
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    Get rid of the union on the exhaust....

    When plastic goes through expansion and contraction, the unions will eventually loosen themselves, and then you will have products of combustion getting into the living space.

    Watch the pressure gage as it is going though its stages. If you see the pressure bouncing at the same time the appliance is vibrating, then it is most probably a flow issue. Could be air in the system too. Those Gianonni heat exchangers are tough to purge.

    Watch flame signal strength when it is going though its paces, and if you see a deviation in voltage, it could be a fire side issue.

    Also, I don't see any purple primer on your PVC joints. I hope to God that you didn't assemble the joints without using the required primer. This is how people die (Aspen Colorado).

    Seriously.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 26, 2010 10:50 AM.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 11:18 AM
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    Unions/exhaust:

    Munchkin uses a "fernco" type coupling on the exhaust. Why not use one of those on both the intake and exhaust? You will play hell unscrewing those unions in a year or so. You will probably break the nut.
    Mark E.,
    I NEVER, never ever cement PVC without deburring the pipe and cleaning the inside of the fitting and the outside of the pipe. I only use clear cleaner because I think that although there is no question that you have cleaned the pipe and fitting when you use it, I always wipe the cleaner off with a clean white rag. I think it looks tacky and unprofessional. You can always tell I cleaned the pipe though because you will see the MFG's painted stripe removed where I clean it. I also find that the purple stuff doesn't do a very good job of cleaning the pipe because it has always dried before I cal wipe the rag on it.
    Is there some foolish requirement that I an doing it wrong?
    Just asking.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:43 AM
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    Witness Dye...

    Ice, The die is colored for the benefit of the inspectors. It allows them to visually see that primer was used. I hear you about craftsmanship, but some DIYer's don't know what you know and probably will not use primer period, which leads to joint failure due to thermal expansion and contraction. To be quite honest, I didn't think you could get primer without coloration in it. I can't here in Denver, and wouldn't anyway. As for the primer drying, that is fine. It isn't intended to soften the pipe, although it does superficially. It is meant to remove any surface contaminants (oil, skin oil etc) to insure a good clean bonding surface. The actual placement of the glue causes a small chemical reaction that generates a small amount of heat. If you don't hold the joint firmly together for about 30 seconds, the reaction will actually push the pipe out of the fitting, I know I am preaching to the choir here, but you must remember who it is that is reading this information, and their level of skill compared to yours and mine,,,,

    It is also important to chamfer the leading edge of the pipe to keep it from acting like a piston and pushing the cement out of the joint during insertion. All of this information is on the can of glue and primer, but who bothers to read that crap?

    I do. Even if I've used it 1,000,000 times, I take the time to read the instructions at least once a year, to see if anything has changed, and it does.

    You are a recent joiner/poster here at the Wall. If you don't mind, tell us about yourself, your years of experience, locations worked etc. I like to know where people stand before I find out where they sit. :-)

    Welcome to the Wall. I enjoy reading a good response.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 10:10 AM
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    Vibrating Munchkins??/ Where are they:

    Mark,
    I grew up in Hollywood, CA when the when the LA city school system was the second best in the country. Now, it is down with Mississippi. Thanks to tax savings and cost cutting. We had quality industrial arts/vocational training in every Jr and Sr high school from the 7th grade to graduation. Now, nothing. We sent all the jobs overseas. Few new recruits. I moved to Massachusetts where I was born. I started off working as a masons helper. For a guy who quit school in the 5th grade and regularly reminded me that "I" was working for "Him" and that the only thing my High School Diploma was good for was toilet paper for him to use after certain bodily functions. I then worked for another mason who could do anything but was a full blown binge drinker, drunk. But between binges, I had the opportunity to learn a lot. So, I went carpentering. I was a union carpenter. I learned a lot about things being straight and level. I had the opportunity to go with a plumbing and heating guy who was getting going and had some big jobs. He gave me the opportunity to do a lot of things. Digging in the street, running water and sewer mains etc. Working in the local diesel power plant, doing the installs of generators. Lots of interesting things. We also did big Smith Mills boilers plus residential stuff. Because I had become multi-talented, whenever he ran out of work, I got to other interesting things like remodel his house or other things. We did it all. Plumbing, heating, gas, water systems, wells. Wherever the other guys had a problem they they and the boss couldn't figure out, he sent me. It became personal pride that I never failed.  I got my MA Journeyman's lic. in 1967 and my MA Master's license in 1994. I went in business in 1976. I had employees and I also trained every person who came to work for my old boss. I had a few employees but about the time they were really helpful, they would quit and start their own business. And often take their "pal" with them. So, I just gave up and am a one man show. I never got the same quote from anyone for heating so I bought the IBR books and figured them out and have done it ever since. It all figures in and is all connected. I seem to "see" how things fit together and are inter-related. So to speak.
    I've been a life long sailor and a life long suffer of motion sickness. I fly to work every day. I can keep it under control. I see the effects of Mother Nature all around us, every day. And how it relates to everything we do.
    An example is seeing vapor form on the propeller tips of a Cessna 402C on certain days when the pilot starts his take-off run and the tip speed of the prop increases, causing changes in atmospheric pressure and causing visible vapor to form. For a few seconds. And it goes away. It forms from the tip to a couple of inches behind the prop. And it is gone. Not every day, and not on many days. Just certain days when the temperature is right, the humidity is right and the dew point is right. Instant temporary cloud.
    I was sitting in the right seat of a Cessna Caravan other day, a single engine turboprop plane and we started the run. It appeared on this prop only it was right in front of me. Only this time, it was a round ring about 1" wide. As the prop came up to speed and we accelerated up, it went away.
    Cavitation. It happens every where. When the stars align, it happens. Especially (IMHO), in our heating systems. 
    The water of life is a wonderful thing. Without it, we wouldn't be here.
    Ice sailing? My passion. And there are no waves on the ice. At least, there shouldn't be. And my DN will go 3 to 5 times faster than the wind speed. It generates it's own apparent wind. By the same principles that we use in the fluids we use. Whether air or liquids. An interesting life.  
    Journeyman Plumber
    Master Plumber
    Master Pipefitter
    Lic. Well Driller
    Lic. Oil Burner Technician
    In MA, Licensed Plumbers are also Licensed Gas fitters.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:26 AM
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    Wow, sounds like a well rounded career..

    Welcome to the Wall.

    I made an ice sail boat one time with my father, a Master Plumber. It was made of 1-1/4" sched. 40 steel pipe for the frame, used a 12' tall mast made of aluminum bull float handles, and used some orange curtain materials, once used in a Cristeau art demo done in Rifle Colorado, call the Rifle Gap Curtain.

    We dragged it out onto the frozen lake, and I seated myself and strapped myself in, and this HUUGE gust of wind grabbed me and started pushing me across the lake. I had ZERO control as it pertains to direction. I think the wind was blowing about 50 MPH. In any case, I eventually ran out of ice, and beached it HARD on the other side of the lake, totally destroying the skate used to control it. So that was the first and last trip for the infamous ice boat... It was fun while it lasted, but it didn't last nearly as long as it should have.

    My brother has a Prarie Schooner, which is essentially the same thing as an ice boat, except it has big fat tires on it. He loves it, but there are few places one can do open sailing here in the Rockies... Occasional unfilled parking lots.

    One of my former work mates had a fat tired oversized skate board that he had fashioned a sail to for sailing in the desert for the annual Burning Man event out west.
    He got some serious road rash his first time out :-)


    Thanks for sharing! I look forward to reading more of your experiences.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 7:51 PM
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    Icy Munchkins:

    Mark,
    I hear more stories about first time ice sailing disasters. It's kind of like some of the disasters here.
    There is more to sailing than making a set of skates, putting a sail on and taking off. For one thing, it is usually blowing too hard when these trips are started. And putting a soft water sail rig is way too powerful for ice.

    Check out , New England Ice Yacht Association. We are the largest ice boat group in New England with over 250 members. We have a Yahoo Group.  If you want to see something really awsome, go to YouTube and search "iceratz". Jeff Brown, a good friend. He shot some videos and posted them there. We had some awsome sailing at Lake Winnipasaukee, NH last February. We had around 100 boats over three days on a plate that was about 7 miles long and 5 miles wide. It was awsome. There are two videos. Winni #1 and Winni #2. Two is better. Then, there is one on Free Skates on Waquaket Lake on Cape Cod. These are sailboards/snowboards with skateboard trucks and skates instead of wheels and a sailboard sail. Jeff holds the world "iceboard" speed record of 62.+ MPH. We all carry pocket GPS's to keep track of our speeds.
    There's a lake up in CO where some guys sail but from what is reported, the ice is good (sailable) seledom and it blows like stink most of the time. Not fun.
    The boats are all home made so what you see is usually made by the person sailing them. I built my DN in 2007. The hull weighs 42# and has not one screw or nail in it. All expoy glue. The whole boat, skates, sail, mast etc weighs 147#.
    Someone describes ice sailing as "The most fun you will ever have with your clothes on".  I agree.
  • Plumdog Plumdog @ 10:01 PM
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    Ice Sailing

    Hi Icesailor! What's a DN? I've thought about this ice boat thing for fifty years.  We used to grab a big piece of cardboard and with skates on, take off like a bat out of hell (on Lake Champlain, Vermont). I've seen a few ice boats out at Elevenmile Res in South Park......but the ice can be rough. Plenty enough wind, mostly too much wind I suspect.
    This stuff ain't gonna make the Munchkin quit moaning, but I'm sure plenty can be learned.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 8:31 PM
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    Witness dye is not enough.

    The purple color for the cleaner-primer is all very well, but my former contractor did the intake and exhaust PVC pipes with it. The joints were all purple, so they had obviously been cleaned. Unfortunately, they forgot to use the cement on most of the joints. Then they put some thin black foam insulation on the pipes. Fortunately, this was all in my garage.

    A year and a half later, the boiler locked out. We ultimately found out that the purple stuff is inadequate to cement pipe together, you have to use cement also. (No surprise.) So it is all fixed now, with a new control board also, even though the old one worked for a week as we investigated the source of the water. Condensate in the exhaust leaking out and running down between the insulation and the pipe, where it could not be seen.

    It is interesting that the control board says, right on the front of the thing, that if it has been under water, it must be replaced. I mean everyone should know that, but there it was, in plain sight.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 2:24 PM
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    Purple is code for all my inspectors

    They will fail jobs if purple cleaner is not used in my area of Mass.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • icesailor icesailor @ 7:47 PM
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    Purple:

    Charlie, show me in the MA code where it says the primer must be purple?
    They can not fail you if you use what I use, Rectorseal clear. I use clear cement. "Big Bill" and "Pistol Pete". I've used Genova purple crud and it just stuck to the pipe and wouldn't wipe off. You can "see" where the sheen is broken and the manufacturers info line is obviously wiped off. When you see the line, covered with purple dye going into the socket, how can you say you properly cleaned the pipe. If the purple stuff worked as well as the clear, I would use it in an instant. It doesn't work well.
    Just MY experience. And I've been cleaning it like this since 1970.
  • Slimpickins Slimpickins @ 10:49 AM
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    purge valves?

    From what I can make out, you don't have a true primary/secondary arrangement on the piping. It's hard to see in the upper left hand corner but you have elbows too close to your closely placed tees. Is the primary pump hidden by the expansion tank? I don't see any purge valves either, might have air in the system causing vibration. Not crazy about how you did the make up water tie in on the DHW loops. Most likely you have a flow problem and need to get that combustion set up. as well. The unions are a bad idea and illegal too, I know of no manufacturers or codes that specify unions.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 26, 2010 10:53 AM.
  • Slimpickins Slimpickins @ 11:25 AM
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    another question

    Why didn't you get the Vision 1 control? it would have save a ton of work and materials like mixing valves.

    And about Icesailors reply to ME, I've worked in several jurisdictions in Colorado and they all require purple primer on venting and all PVC waste and vent plumbing.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 9:18 PM
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    Thanks all for your input.

    My primary/ secondary piping is 1 1/4" w/ 1" takeoffs for the heat and hot water maker zones. The manifolds have purge valves and the hot water maker has a float vent. I used clear primer to keep job neat. The gas is at 6" water column. I dont have a air problem in the system. I notice that the fan is vibrating at start up. Thats what seems to be giving me a problem. Any new ideas fellas?
    SUPER SERVICE WITH A SMILE!
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:41 PM
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    Burner Fan

    Have you tried removing the fan and visibly checking it for a problem?
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 10:10 PM
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    munchkin

    It seems like you gotta take the whole boiler apart for that. This boiler was made in april of 2005. How can I confirm which vision system this is?
    SUPER SERVICE WITH A SMILE!
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:04 PM
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    Not enough vent....

    On page 40 of the I&O manual, it calls out a MINIMUM vent length equivilant of 16 linear feet of combined vent/exhaust piping. If you don't meet their minimum, it can cause a rumbling.

    Also critical is the distance between the gas regulator before the meter, and the regulator serving the appliance. If it is too close, these tow reg's will "SEE" each other and will pulsate off of each other. Must have at least 10 feet between regulators.

    If you go to page 56 of the manual, you will see how to run the boiler in manual mode, allowing you to adjust the RPMs of operation.

    As for which version of Vision you have, unless you have thermistors to allow the SIT control to see the outside air temperature, you have no Vision control. It is the basic boiler without outdoor reset control. Vision 1 includes the wires necessary to allow the control to see outside, and the DHW temperature, and also allows for the separate wiring of DHW pump for priority.

    HTH

    PS, Glad you used primer. Waking up dead is not a good way to start the day...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 11:55 PM
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    Thanks Mark...

    For catching the vent length. I read through his post last night too quickly and thought that he had posted 21 ft. of vent length, not 21in.

    I hope that's all it takes to fix the problem.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 11:07 AM
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    Wow, this is really complicated.So many different ideas.

    I piped my boiler as per installation instructions for side wall venting figure 4-2 in the venting section,page 19. I added the swing joint to create pitch. I will remove the union since I have a fernco on the exhaust. Yet my piping looks just like that example which is also a short run. I cant find that information your talking about in my book from 2005. Was there a revision?
    SUPER SERVICE WITH A SMILE!
  • Ironman Ironman @ 11:49 AM
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    Mark's Right

    Dantana,

    Look at one of my earlier posts above and download the attachment. It's on page 40, right hand column.

    Also, notice that each 90 deg ell adds 5 ft. of equivalent vent length. You might try temporarily adding a couple more ells outside at the termination and see if that corrects the problem.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 27, 2010 11:58 AM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 12:02 PM
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    Dan,

    I found it in the manual that Ironman posted, and I think it has been there pretty much since day 1. I know the chief engineer for HTP (Brian French) and his former boss (Dave Davis) and in fact had a lot to do with the development and application of their products (I have 3 munchkins floating around different house etc). I am the reason you can't (couldn't) get the V1 control package without having attended a rep sponsored class on the product.

    I have to give credit to Dave Davis and Brian French for having the gumption and fore site to introduce the Gianonni concept to natural gas appliances here in the US. He was a pioneer in this area. Many people disagree my statements and position on this, but if they hadn't taken the initiative to do what they did, we'd still be dinking around with near condensing boilers, thinking they are the greatest thing since pre-buttered, sliced bread...

    You are going to have to create some back pressure to straighten out the rumbling. The only suggestion I can make off hand would be to put a restrictive orifice someplace in the exhaust vent. Like maybe a 2" X 1-1/4" fitting bushing.. It can NOT trap any condensate, or you will create a whole new set of problems.

    Every I&O manual I have ever read has "conflicts" and "issues" similar to what you are dealing with. The manufacturer is trying their best to satisfy every potential installation and application, and get so caught up in the visual detail (drawings) that they forget to double check and make sure that what they drew is not in conflict with other (minimum lengths) requirements.

    My suggestion would be to contact HTP's technical service guys, and if they can't get you resolution, go deeper and ask for Mr. French in engineering and see if he can help you. He (Brian) is a very busy person, but has always returned my calls.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 6:37 PM
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    trial and error

    Couldnt get a hold of a 2" x 1 1/4" busching so I used a 2" x 1 1/2". Unfortunately its still acting the same. The exhaust kinda smells too, like gas i think. Gas valve adjustment needed?
    SUPER SERVICE WITH A SMILE!
  • icesailor icesailor @ 8:01 PM
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    Munchkin:

    Dan, is this a brand new boiler or has it been running for some time and this problem just came up.
    Somewhere I thought you said it was a 2005 vintage Munchkin but they didn't have black covers.
    What year was this boiler made?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 11:31 PM
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    Fan

    Is the fan vibrating before or after ignition? If it's before, then there's probably an issue in the fan. If it's after, then you have a combustion issue. This is where we keep coming back to combustion analysis being so vital. Also check to see if incoming gas pressure drops more than 1'' after ignition and when the fan ramps up.

    I don't know if some of the earlier Munchkins had any burner issues. Maybe someone else on here could give some input on that.

    The Vision 1 is optional.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 11:34 AM
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    Vibrating Munchkin

    Is this thing on LP or Nat. Gas?
    Does it cycle on and off AND viberate?
    It could have a "Swirl Plate" plate problem.
    I don't want to get into that unless requiired. That is a combustion issue. I'll see what is said and I'll see what I want to say about it. The age is right. It's complicated and I have my own ideas if this is the problem.  
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 8:17 PM
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    more pics different angles

    6" water column static pressure w/ a 1" drop during fire up.
    SUPER SERVICE WITH A SMILE!
  • icesailor icesailor @ 9:03 PM
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    Vibrating Munchkin

    In my opinion, which may not count for much, when the mixers are closed and circulating water through the radiant loops, there is no flow in the primary loop. In fact, the primary loop circulator is probably trying to "push" the water into the secondary circuits at all times when it is running.
    Connect the the two ends of the primary loop with a adjustable relief/preferential relief valve and it will improve or stop the problem. I think that that is the quick and dirty solution. You could even just connect the two ends and put a ball valve and allow it to bypass until the rumbling/vibration stops.
    And if the rumbling comes from inside around the burler fan, there is another issue.
  • clammy clammy @ 12:45 PM
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    How long has this been installed

    Looks like a nice install like the diamond plate is this a recent install or is it older andhas it  just developes this issue ,if it is new i would gather that the offset differental on the gas valve needs to be adjusted ,i had a rumble on my munchkin when i first installed ,my combustion number where good but the offset had to be adjusted after i did the adjustment it was fine and it has been about 6 to 7 years that it has been running and i have had no issues,i also service it ever year .If i where you i would try to get the vision one set up installed and run the boiler at the lowest possible water temp in the long run your boiler will thank you and so will you pocket and system comfort ,Peace and good luck clammy
  • icesailor icesailor @ 10:01 PM
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    Vibrating MunchkinBoiler/Swirl Plate:

    Dan,
    I asked you but you didn't reply to my questions.
    You mentined that this Munchkin was a 2005 vintage? Did you get it used? Why did someone get rid of it?
    Combustion issues have been mentioned. You mention that you can smell gas in the exhaust. Is it on LP or Nat Gas?
    I believe you said that it doesn't do this in the begining but starts going it, then "burps". Have you tried taking off the cover and letting it run without the cover on to see if it runs any better when doing so?
    Is the inside of the boiler area clean and not covered with oxidation?
    When it is doing this "vibrating", look VERY carefully at the fan area of the burner and look to see if there is anything unusual there. Like in the area where the air gets mixed into the fan area and air is sucked in.
    Some of those Munchkins had problems with the swirl plate and something caused deterioration of the plate with serious deterioration. You can not see it without taking out the plate. It would be wise to get a new one because they changed plastics to a higher temperature plastic on the latest ones. You may have one that has wear. If you got the unit used, it may have had the problem and no one knew it. Or, thought something was wrong and didn't know what it was. I and friends have changed a number of them. Your piping problem may just be masking what the real problem is. A combustion issue. With the computer program in a laptop, you can set the thing up and stop the problem. Which is a bad air/fuel mixture at the start,
    Check out the swirl plate. Try this before you start ripping that nice piping job apart.
    CMG
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 8:10 AM
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    Brand new boiler

    It was made April 2005 as per rating plate on boiler. I just happened to install it this summer at the end of my 3 yr renovation project. It was brand new in box sealed w/ straps.Bought it from a plumber who bid a job and customer cancelled order. Paid $1500 for it w/o Vision Control. I have Nat gas w/ a 6" water column. 1" drop during high fire. I disassembled the burner plate and inspected the fan. Looks perfect since its been in operation since August of this year for my DHW. I have let it run w/o cover and boiler is clean as a whistle inside and out. Same fan/ gas valve vibration and burp at end. Then runs quietly. Radiant loops have different temp requirements hence the mixing valves. Thanks,Dan.
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  • icesailor icesailor @ 10:47 PM
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    Vibrating Munchkins:

    Dan et al,
    Check the swirl plate. It is a white plastic thing that has vanes on one side and a venturi arrangement in the middle.
    What I think happens is that when the unit goes on low fire, a reverse flow of exhaust will push the flame back through the end cone and start burning outside the cone. It then gets in the space where it is supposed to be mixing air with the gas. It's "backfiring" like a tired water heater burner or a stove top burner. The problem is attributed to a lot of things but if you take the cover off, it seems to make it better. Take that thing apart and look carefully at the plastic swirl plate. If you see visable signs of heat damage and it goes through one set of vanes, through the venturi opening and all over the face of the plate, "I" personally think it is backfiring. The plate can be found with all the vanes completely deteriorated . Once it gets bad, you need to replace it.
    I can put you in contact with a guy that really knows these Muncies. If you want to, E-mail me at chris1243@aol.com . The E-mail address here for me isn't working right now. It is a yahoo account and my account was hacked and my computer was pretty much wrecked. I had to re-formay my HD and switch to Windows 7. Some how, somewhere, someone keeps changing my Yahoo password and personal information.
    Is this application LP? Or Nat. Gas?
    Chris Gordon
  • jaydiemme jaydiemme @ 9:59 PM
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    my experience with munchkin vibrations

    I have been dealing with similar vibrations from a munchkin mc-50. Occasionally when the units drops to low fire, the gas valve would vibrate, the combustion would be disturbed and exhaust would back up into the unit. The vibration would resolve itself with a "burp" like you described when the firing rate would rise back up.

    With the unit in test mode and the firing rate at its lowest setting I can induce the vibration by turning down the throttle screw on the gas valve. The CO in the exhaust would also hit almost 3000 ppm. This leads me to believe that the vibration is caused by the gas valve somehow being starved for gas.

    While tuning the boiler with a C/A i could not get the readings low enough without the valve vibrating. Even when getting it set as close as possible, when the unit would shut off and try to restart it would not fire and throw an F9 code (no flame detected) and i would have to turn the throttle screw back up just to get the unit to fire. Gas pressure at the valve is 10 in WC (for propane)

    So i emailed HTproducts and their response was, It must be a gas valve adjustment, and left it at that. I called a friend at the gas company and he installed a brand new regulator at the tanks and set the pressures back to 10 in WC. I again tried tuning the unit with the same results.

    I then got my hands on a brand new gas valve from a friend andinstalled in with hopes that it would cure the problem. Same results. Im sure I will need to spend some time on the phone with HTproducts to figure this out before it gets really cold.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 8:17 AM
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    Wow, sounds like my problem too

    Let me know when you find the cure. Thanks,Dan
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  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 10:45 PM
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    Ice Sailor i did look it up

    Apparently as long as the primer meets ANSI F656-96a it can be used. this includes the clear primer from OATEY in the bronze, dark purple, and tan label. Good to know for the next time I work under a lavatory. The clear primer in the Yellow or the purple primer in the light purple label do not meet the code. Live and learn. I have only been priming PVC fittings since 1976. It may be that the failed jobs used the yellow can clear primer.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 9:40 PM
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    Dantana those elbows are really tight turns

    The 5 feet per elbow is for drainage type fittings. I vote to change out the elbows for an elbow and a 45 on each side. I think it also needs tuned with an analyzer.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 10:34 PM
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    Thanks Charlie

    Thats a good idea. Should I increase to 3" too. Would that help more?
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  • dano415 dano415 @ 4:31 PM
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    nice install

    Nice install!  I think you'll find out your problem pretty soon.  What I don't understand about this board is people getting all upset about colored/clear PVC cement?
    This guy needs to heat his home for his family.  Were all not professionals, and
    cannot afford to hire supposedly a  "professional" for a major install like this.  In CA,
    hiring a professional HVAC who really understands modern hydronic heating is very difficult.  I really admire most you you guys, but the "Professionals" who make some poster write a thesis about their experience(because the poor guy was insulted)--need to deflate the p.s.i. in their expansion tank.  Good luck Dantana.  I curious to find out the problem.  BTW---I don't think Stegenthaler would find any huge faults in you piping.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:08 PM
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    I think you may have misunderstood the reason behind my wanting to see PURPLE...

    The family that died in Aspen did so because the installing contractor didn't glue the pipes together. I am not worried about craftsmanship. I am worried about people that get killed by unskilled people dabbling with things that can and will kill people.

    Personally, I think his hydronic piping is impeccable. Hydronic piping doesn't kill people. Improperly assembled venting system do.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 6:37 PM
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    Problem Solved!!!!

    Finally,I was able to get my hands on a CO Analyzer. Once I made the proper adjustments to the Dungs gas valve. My boiler ran nice and quiet. Also that gas smell from my exhaust is gone too! Bye bye vibrating Munchkin! Thanks everyone for your input!
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  • icesailor icesailor @ 11:14 AM
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    Vibrating Munchkin:

    And the cause of the noise was backfiring through the swirl plate. Combustion analysis and adjustments solved the problem. If you used it for any amount though, you may want to take it out and inspect it. It could have serious deterioration and need to be replaced. It will  only get worse. They make a modified plate that is resistant to the problem but they still have the problem.
    I have my theories about it. I think that any gas boiler that uses a Gianonni type HX and fires a burner like this is susceptible to this. Some worse than others.
  • RobbieDo RobbieDo @ 11:49 AM
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    Clear Primer

    Not that this has to domwith your issues, I will read more. But as far as the primer, there is clear primer, you can see it with a UV light, in some areas it's legal by code other places it's not. You did a nice job, I will read all of the posts and see what I come up with, just the primer caught my eye.
    Rob
  • icesailor icesailor @ 6:42 PM
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    PVC Clear Primer

    Because all PVC pipe is printed with the information of the pipe, if you clean it with clear primer, and you clean past the make-in, you will see that the color printing is removed. If you see the the printing go unobstructed into the socket of the fitting, it hasn't been cleaned. I put a liberal amount of cleaner on the pipe and clean it off with a clean rag. I also do the socket of the fitting. It should come cleanly off. Any purple primer I have ever used didn't come off and made a mess. IMO, it left the job looking unprofessional. There is another string here where 4 water heaters were connected with a 4" PVC vent. It is obvious to anyone who knows that the pipe and fittings were not cleaned. The plumbing inspector where I work would fail the inspection if I did that. 
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 6:11 PM
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    FINALLY PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

    Who'd da thunk just replacing a little ol swirl plate would have cured the vibrating Munchkin boiler. I should have replaced it a year ago. The old one was in bad shape. Performed a good cleaning while I was in there. My Munchkin boiler rocks!!!
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  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 8:32 PM
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    swirl plate replacement

    no more vibrations
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  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 8:38 PM
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    2

    2
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  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 10:09 PM
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    any idea why the swirl plate

    was bad? Glad you found the issue.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • icesailor icesailor @ 11:44 PM
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    Bad swirl plates:

    I've been told by those in the know that I am wrong in my opinion but they can't give me contrary proof when I ask to be proven wrong.
    I believe that the Dungs Valve has an ability to allow backfiring and the "swirl" that mixes air and gas through the venturi, can backfire and allow flame to swirl with the air and gas and burn through the plate. It seems to happen more with concentric vents but it can happen to any of them. Especially if there is something to block the free flow of exhaust. It is also more apt to start during low modulation firing.

    If you had the plate in hand, you would see (like in the photo) that there are a group of vanes that are just missing. They have had the plastic so heated that they just broke off. If you flip the plate over, you can see there the flame or hot exhaust has been circulating through the venturi.
    Swirl plate degradation is often blamed on "regurgitation" of exhaust gasses being sucked back into the intake.
    If you make a careful observation of that burned swirl plate, you might come to the same conclusion that I have. No one has been able to convince me to the contrary or give me a provable hypothesis to the contrary. I'm still waiting.
    If you can put a laptop on the brain and retrieve the codes, you will see a lot of retries. A symptom of flame failure. It will start slowly and then speed up over time.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 9:19 AM
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    My ideas of premature failure.

    Originally when I installed the air intake and discharge, I left a gap of only 12". Also, I didnt  calibrate the gas valve w/ a co meter( didnt have access to one). Also too cheap and proud to call in another plumber. It ran like that for probably a year before I addressed it. That probably caused the premature failure of the swirl plate. So shame on me and not the Munchkin product. I agree with what the ICE SAILOR is talking about. Regurgitation. The noise only happened during initial low fire modulation. Then ran quiet afterwards. Yet the heat will eventually creep back and deteriorate the swirl plate. Hopefully my 18" air intake/discharge gap adjustment and calibrated gas valve extend the life expectancy of this boiler to perform better in the future. Thanks for everyones input! Long live my Munchkin boiler!!!
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  • icesailor icesailor @ 11:51 AM
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    Setting up to Munch:

    It is more important to set up Munchies up with a digital exhaust combustion analyzer. If it is a newer Munchie with the remote controller, the instruction manual list the CO and CO2 valves, and fan speeds for high and low fire. You need the gas pressure to get to these numbers. The controller will show you the fan speeds. The fan speed is part of setting the gas flow rate. It is all in the manual. If you haven't carefully read it, you need to read it until you understand it. You have to look at the chart to see what model Munchie you have and use those parameters. I can be as fussy as I want to be but if the fan speed  is very close, and the numbers are slightly out of range but close, it can be a bigger PITA to futz with the gas valve. "No good deed will be unpunished". But if you change swirl plates, you should go over the whole thing.
    If you have a M80 Munchie and it is vented with 3" PVC, I find that it will have a problem venting and running on low fire and I have put 3"X2" PVC bushings in the exhaust to get more back pressure on low fire. They improved. I've extended concentric vents with a no-hub coupling and PVC pipe. If the vent faces the East or a prevailing winter wind direction, it may need something to stop direct wind from blowing back as hard. Take the burner off and look into the chamber. The last one was clean as a whistle with only a stray dehydrated insect on the bottom. I've seen others that were acting up that needed to cleaned out with CLR or Rid Lime.
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 6:40 PM
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    Ice man cometh

    I did calibrate gas valve w/ HTP Tech Services. It was set up properly after the fact the swirl plate was damaged. She's good now. I clean combustion chamber every 1-1 1/2. She's squeeky clean & quiet. Thanks again.
     
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  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 9:40 AM
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    also thanks

    for the update. People often disappear and we never find out if the problem is fixed or not.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • SUPER DAN P&H SUPER DAN P&H @ 10:36 AM
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    thank you.

    Its important as a community to share our knowledge in order for us to grow. As plumbers or hvac contractors, we should be helping each brother instead of competing against each other. Its my privilege to work amongst great men.
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