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    Boiler Piping Diagrams (12 Posts)

  • RinTin RinTin @ 10:49 PM
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    Boiler Piping Diagrams

    I am looking for the piping diagram for Bryant gas boiler 4-446 series A. i appreciate any and all help, i have attached some photos of my setup/
  • Oak Park Electric Oak Park Electric @ 12:56 AM
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    Deja vu

    I've seen that boiler here somewhere before...     Are you having any definite problems with the system?  It is not piped right according to proper steam practice, but when dealing with old pipes in those kind of sizes, if it does work I would not want to mess with it.   Well... actually that's not true.  If it was mine I probably would repipe it,  just because that's how I am, but I would only do it in summer.  I can't help with a real original installation diagram, but some of the guys here have all kinds of old books, catalogs, and manuals.  Is there another tapping on the other side of the boiler opposite where the steam line comes out in the picture?  ( even if it has a plug in it )  If it really needs to be redone, the answer might be to just do it with a generic arrangement that is kind of typical of most modern steam install diagrams.
  • RinTin RinTin @ 11:18 AM
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    no major issues

    the system does work without major issues. for instance water hammer is not an issue. however, the system is very noisy and seemingly slow to heat the radiators, though all do heat all the way through eventually. i do not believe it can be piped from the opposite side.

    the main issue is that it delivers wet steam and makes for large fuel bills, which is surely partly due to the efficiency of the boiler itself.

    another question...how difficult/costly is it to install an electronic ignition? is the honeywell kit an option?
  • BobC BobC @ 11:54 AM
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    More info needed

    That piping is huge! It's not piped anything like a modern boiler but then its very old and probably has a huge steam chest.

    One thing that might help some is to replace that main vent I see coming of the return pipe. That might not do a whole lot for wet steam but it should speed up the steam delivery. What you have looks like it might be Hoffman 4A and you need a lot more that that can vent. Measure the legth and size of the steam main and the same for the return so we can figure out how much pipe volume your dealing with.

    Is it single Pipe steam? Check the main and all the radiator leaders that come off the main to be sure everything is sloped properly. If the radiators have air vents on them what kind are they?

    How many radiators does it feed? Outs side of being slow to heat, do they spit water or steam? Post some more pictures of the piping in the basement a of a couple of the radiators so we can see what your dealing with.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 84,200 BTU, Single pipe steam

    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in

    3PSI gauge
  • RinTin RinTin @ 5:36 PM
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    more info

    it is a one pipe system that feeds 7 radiators. the radiators don't really spit water but they do spit steam.

    i know that i need to increase the size of the main vents and add some insulation.

    one of the main runs is 10'4" of 3" pipe and then reduced to 1.5" pipe
    for 10.5' and the second main is 22' of 3" pipe and then reduced to 1.5"
    pipe for 14.5'. i was planning on using gorton 2's on an antler setup.

    most of the radiators have hoffman 4a's
  • BobC BobC @ 9:08 PM
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    Main Vents

    Using your numbers I come up with about 0.15 cu ft for the short main and 0.28 cu ft for the long one. That kind of volume should only require a Hoffman #4A for the  short main and 2ea Hoffman 4A's for the long. Because of the cost you should use a Gorton #1 for the short one and Two Gorton #1's for the long one - the Gorton #1's  cost less than the Hoffman 4A's at pexsupply.com

    The Gortons mount to a 1/2" female thread so you will need a short nipple and a reducer to put them into the 3/4" tapping that you probably have now. The dual will need a couple of elbows, a T and a few pipe nipples. Plan it all out so you get all the fittings you need without having to make a second trip to the hardware store (I ALWAYS make that second trip)

    The Hoffman 1A's on the radiators are good choice for that system because they should allow you to balance everything out.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 84,200 BTU, Single pipe steam

    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in

    3PSI gauge
    This post was edited by an admin on December 18, 2010 9:11 PM.
  • Dave in QCA Dave in QCA @ 9:46 AM
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    Improper Repairs Perhaps?

    I have been looking at your photos for several days.  It looks to me like someone has replaced some of your near boiler piping in the past.  It also occurs to me that it is likely that the plumber who did it simply did not understand basic steam boiler piping and removed connections that he thought were unneeded. 

    It looks to me like there is a black iron plug in the tee where the boiler piping connects to the steam main.  There could have been an equalizer connected here, dropping down and running back to the return tapping in the boiler.  Also, a couple of inches below the water level, in the equalizer line, their could have been a tee, with a connection to the returns, and then you'd have the hartford loop.

    It is an unusual situation because the boiler is tall and the piping exits the side.  It looks like the horizontal header section of the piping might be too low at first glance.  However, zooming in on this photo, finding the site glass, and comparing the vertical distance between the water level and the horizontal header section, there appears that the header is at least 2' above the water line. 

    I have done a crude sketch using the "paint" program.  The wet leg should probably be lower, but I was trying to keep the drawing simple for conceptual purposes. 
    I know the deadhead tee that I show as the equalizer connection is not a preferred practice at the current time.  However, I have noticed that I&O manuals from Weil-Mclain from the 1970s were showing this arrangement as the proper piping for their steam boilers.

    I'd like to hear what others think.

    Dave
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
    This post was edited by an admin on December 20, 2010 9:51 AM.
  • Dave in QCA Dave in QCA @ 7:42 PM
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    Bump

    I have been looking forward to hearing some feedback from the pros.  I am curious if there is any agreement with my last post, or whether the pros would find a serious flaw that I have overlooked.
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
    This post was edited by an admin on December 25, 2010 7:43 PM.
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 8:40 PM
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    Well, I think that's what I'd do

    if I were going to keep this boiler. But a boiler that old was designed when fuel was cheap- maybe it's time to upgrade?
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • RinTin RinTin @ 2:46 PM
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    thanks

    i appreciate all the advice, i think i am gonna change the piping this spring. i was also thinking of putting in an electronic ignition instead the constantly burning pilot. any suggestions on that front?
  • Mark N Mark N @ 3:39 PM
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    If it's not broke.

    Why fix it other than possibly better main and rad venting. On this site under resources in the library section there is a listing for the Beacon Boiler Reference Book for boiler prior to 1959. In part 2 there are listing for Bryant Boilers. THe book lists a model 244 that supersedes the model 446. This boiler was out of production over 50 years ago. To me it makes no sense to put any money into a boiler this old other to maybe get it through the winter.
  • Dave in QCA Dave in QCA @ 9:50 AM
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    keep your standing pilot

    Savings produced by spark ignition add up over the life of a boiler, but in your case, it would be a waste of money.  Best thing for you to do is turn of the pilot during the summer months. 

    If I had your boiler, and was not ready to replace it, I would give it tender loving care, make sure it is watched closely. 
    Your piping situation can be corrected easily without messing with the pipes that are directly connected into the boiler castings, so you should be fine doing that. 
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
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