Heating Help

Uneven heating in two mains - incorrect piping? i posted pics - please help!

Hello all, I have a question about how my new steam system is piped
and if it might be the cause of some of the problems I am having with
it.  I am completely new to steam heat but have been coming to this site
for a couple months now and have learned a ton! It has been an
invaluable resource!Sorry for the long post, but I figured more
information the better - I hope someone might be able to point me in the
right direction - this has been a seemingly endless process of trial
and error chasing down the issues with this system.  Very frustrating.


I put up a couple pics showing how the new boiler is piped.  A
little background is that the old burnham boiler died and had to be
replaced.  The heating co. basically put in a new smith series 8
3-section boiler to replace the old using all existing piping as much as
possible I think.  Basically the main problem I am having right now is
very uneven heat from the radiators in the rear of the house vs the
front of the house.  The rear rads take forever to heat up, and the
front rads all heat very fast (minutes).  You can see that there are two
mains.  The steam comes out of the riser, makes a couple 90 deg turns
and then hits a riser to a main that I call the front main (all
radiators on the front of the house are fed from this main).  It then
travels a bit further maybe 12 to 18 inches or so then hits the second
riser that goes to the rear main which feeds all radiators on the rear
of the house.  Both mains seem to vent well and heat up fast - the front
main does heat up faster for sure but the rear main is only a couple
mins behind it seems.  though maybe not quite as hot.  Remember the
steam hits the front main first.  Also all of the front rads heat up
super fast even the second floor rads.  but it takes quite a while
longer for the rear house radiators to heat up, especially the second
floor ones - takes forever! Most all of the time the second floor rear
house radiator (the furthest possible radiator) never heating up at all
unless the system has run for a long time like 40 min+. By the way, all
radiators have brand new ventrite adjustable vents, and the mains have
brand new ventrite vents.  It is a single pipe system, condensate going
in direction of steam.  All mains and exposed supply pipes and even the
returns are now insulated.  


Also, the radiator vents seem to vent very hard.  The fronts make a
lot of sound with air very rapidly exiting (they are mostly closed down
to 5 or less). The rear rads vent even worse - many making loud and
very uneven whistling sounds almost like uneven panting  or
something.  But seems like a lot of air pressure coming out at times
though not all the time (weird I know - dont know how else to explain
it).  All rear radiator vents are wide open as far as possible in an
attempt to get them to heat faster.  The front rads heat up and vents
close fast.  There was a water issue in that rear main (caused by a
contractor who unknowingly caused a change in the pitch of that rear
main) but heating guys have since fixed pitch, I have pitched suspect
rads more (that I thought might be retaining water), and there is no
longer any water hammer at all and I don't really hear gurgling per se.
like i did at one point (when the pitch of the main was messed up).
Also, i have never witnessed the pressure go past 1.5psi so I think it
is set correctly.


My biggest question is could the cause of the long time it takes to
heat up the rear radiators be caused by the fact that the steam hits
the front main first, then makes its way to the rear main? I.e. Is the
front main robbing the rear main of steam?  Is this the proper way to
pipe the two mains? It probably is as it was like that before....  But
we had a contractor (not a heating contractor - a building contractor)
tell us it is wrong - the main riser should go to a header that is a T
with one main going left, and the other to the right and the steam would
hit both at the same time.  To me, at first this made sense but then if
you figure the steam going up the main riser at a certain speed and
pressure, will suddenly have that speed and pressure cut in half - dont
know but maybe that could create a vaccuum or something.  


My second question is what to make of the uneven and loud and rapid venting of radiator vents?


Thank you in advance for any help or advice you have.  Anything
will help.  I feel like I have been chasing one problem after another
for the last three months and wasting a lot of fuel oil in the
process...


-Sean

Piping Looks OK

I can't tell from the pictures what size the header piping on the boiler is, and whether it is what the manufacturer requires, but I don't see any reducing bushings, and that is a good thing.  The orientation of the piping, and the way it is connected to your building piping, and to the equalizer and return, is correctly done.

The problems you describe sound like venting issues.  I assume that this is a one-pipe system.  You have 2 mains.  Do they have main vents on them?  If so, what type?  Are they working?  (Do they get hot?  How long does that take after the boiler begins to make steam?  Do they close, or do they continue to hiss and blow out steam?)
For your radiator vents, what type do you have?  Are they all the same, if not, list them all out.

The general advice for good and even steam distribution is that your mains should be vented FAST and Completely.  Your radiators should be vented slow.  It takes the combination of both of these things to get even steam distribution.  When you get even steam, you will love it!

re: Piping Looks OK

Thanks Dave. 

It is a 1-pipe system both mains have vents located about 20 inches back from the end of the returns (just before the do a 90 deg turn and head down to go back into the system).  The mains do vent and do get hot and close.  The front main as I mentioned vents very fast and closes within minutes.  The rear vent (the one that is second in line so to say) also vents pretty well, just not quite as fast but it does get hot and the vent does seem to close on it a few minutes after the front main does.

All radiator vents and the two main vents are all brand new and went in with the new boiler at the end of November.  All vents are "Vent-Rite".  The mains are big unadjustable ones, and the rads have smaller adjustable vents (1-8) and are all the same.   Like I mentioned the front radiators I currently have closed the vents down to vent mroe slowly as they work so well - at about 4-5 for each.  4 or below hey dont seem to work well.  The rear mains I have wide open just to try and get them to heat quicker.

Any ideas what could be causing the venting issues?  that is my suspicion also that maybe water in the main but then we get no water hammer so then i thought maybe the piping configuration might contribute to the slowness..

...

not sure what the cfm's are on the vents you have, but remember, 'it's all in the venting'.

and this guy's wrong:   we had a contractor (not a heating contractor - a building contractor) tell us it is wrong - the main riser should go to a header that is a T
with one main going left, and the other to the right and the steam would
hit both at the same time
venting rates will determine where the steam wants to go, not the configuration of the piping. 

Main Vents

Hi-  I think the first thing I would do is dramatically increase my main venting. You mentioned that you are using Ventrites for main vents. Ventrite makes two main vents the 35 and the 77. You didn't mention which one you are using so I included info for both. Both are rather on the small side venting capacity wise.Here is a comparison of main vents venting at 1 oz. of pressure: (This info is from Gerry Gill's excellant venting book available in the Shop section of this website)
Ventrite  35         .110 cu.ft per min.
Ventrite 77          .190 cu ft per min.
Gorton # 1          .333 cu ft per min
Gorton # 2         1.100 cu ft per min.

Since you can't overvent a steam main, I'd place a Gorton #2 on each main and see what that does. My system has Gorton for main vents and Ventrite adjustables for radiator vents. (Gortons are available from Pex Supply on the internet.)
Radiator vents are another subject and you CAN cause a lot of problems by overventing your radiators.  ("Vent your mains fast and your radiators slow")
Your piping looks generally okay. You mentioned that you have now insulated the piping which should be a big help to the system.
You might also want to take a look at Gerry Gill's website. He's the Cleveland steam pro who wrote the book on venting. He has a lot of good steam articles there including a very good one on venting. http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/
- Rod

re: Main Vents

Thank you Rod!!!!  I just went to the basement and verified they are VentRite #35's - so the smallest of the small!!!  Not good.  I am going to call some local plumbing supply places to see if they sell those Gortons.  Will the Gortons fit on top of the same stem or nipple or whatever it is that the ventrites are on?

Thanks!!!

venting

would it help to have an additional vent added to the rear main?  the mains have Ventrite vents, and what the heating system installer called thier largest - maybe 3/4" i *think* he may have said...  Do they make larger vents?

again, the main does vent, it's just the radiators that seem to take forever to heat up off that main.  but then i can hear them venting also!  quite a bit of venting actually!  so i am confused if i can hear them venting, and feel the air coming rushing out, doesnt that mean that steam is making its way to them pushing out the air?

smith header

why not get out the installation manual for your boiler, and compare the mfg's required piping with what was installed. i would think that the header should be one diameter larger than the riser, and maybe they would have specified 2 risers instead of only one.
while firing up from cold, can you feel any difference in the initial heat up of the 2 mains about 10 feet from the header. if the header is undersized, then that with bad main venting would cause the speed of steam arrival to be much slower.
was the new boiler properly sized to the radiation? if you were slightly under sized, that would exaggerate any restrictive difference between the 2 mains, especially with weak main venting.--nbc

re: smith header

I do have the manual.  It calls for what is there - a 2" header and 2" riser and also for a 3-5 section boiler (mine is 3 section) they want 1 riser. 

the diagram doesnt show the piping past the header though - basically shows it going from th header to a single pipe going up to a main - doesnt show how to do it if there are 2 mains - i guess they dont consider that part of the "near boiler piping"

Main Vents Etc.

Rod and Tom have nailed it!!
Also, just check the I&M manual, and your boiler calls for a 2" riser and header.  It looks like that is what you have.  Your building piping is connected to the header perfectly.  Your general contractor does not know beans about steam piping, and should not be offering erroneous advice.

The capacity of a main vent does not have much to do with the pipe size, but rather the size of the passages inside the vent.  The main vents that your contractor installed vent at less than half the rate that the old standby, the Hoffman 75.  They vent at about 1/10th the rate of a good Gorton #2.

What you want to have in your steam system, is a venting set up where the mains vent very fast and the radiators slow.  What this will do, is allow the steam to work its way quickly down the main to the path of least resistance, the main vent.  When the steam gets there, the main vent closes, and then the steam begins to flow into the radiators, evenly, at the same time.  When your main vent is inadequate, like the ones you have, the steam will begin to flow into the radiators way before the steam gets to the main vent.  As the steam flows into the nearest radiators, given the huge mass of the cool cast iron, those radiators will actually tend to draw in steam to take the place of the steam that is condensing to water, and so the progress of the steam moving down the main will slow down, and perhaps actually stop until those near radiators that are hogging the steam become fully heated. 

A gorton #2 on each of your 2 mains would be good.  I would the close all of your radiator vents to position 5 and see where that gets you.  You can fine tune at that point, but nothing is going to work right until you get some decent main vents installed.

Steam to the Radiators.

I think what is happening now is that your radiator vents are doing most of the venting for the mains. This is why you hear all the hissing. Steam enters the mains as quickly as the air leaves the mains, however on reaching and entering the first radiator, things change. The steam in this radiator (and others the steam reaches first) condenses, going from a volume of 1 cu ft. of steam = 1 cu. inch of water. This creates a huge vacuum which more steam then rushes in to fill. This huge need for steam can slow down the steam traveling in other parts of the system.  The idea of using large main vents is that air is quickly removed from the mains so that steam reaches all the radiators at approximately the same time. The condensing in the radiators can then be controlled by (the vent) the speed at which the air is leaving the radiators.  This what is meant by "Vent the mains fast and the radiator slowly".
You said you tried turning the radiator venting down but had problems with it . That's because these vents are now doing the job of the main vents. With proper main venting these vents will be just be able to look after their individual radiator and you should be able to turn them way down with no problem.
- Rod

Update - new main vents - and Should air be sucking into a radiator vent?

Ok, so I just went the the plumbing supply store and put on two brand main vents.  My mains now have Gorton #1's on them.  there was one store nearby that had them in stock and no one had #2's so i figured i'd try the #1's - they vent triple the rate the ventrite #35's do so it HAS to be a big improvement.

I am running the system right now.   All radiator vents have been set to 5.  Pretty much all of them have heated up and done so fairly quickly!  The mains vented much more quickly but again that rear main was slower to close still by a few minutes.  Both both are very hot all the way to the main vents etc...

Next issue is the one radiator that is furthest away on the second floor and on the rear main still took forever to heat.  I put my ear close to the vent on it and could hear it sounded a little like air being sucked in and out of it.  So i placed a piece of teflon tape very loosely over the top and sure enough it would  puff up when air was venting out and suck into the little hole a bit when air was being sucked in.  Now each time it sucked into the hole, i started hearing some gurgling sound down in the pipes some where - not a heavy gurgle but kind of a mix beween boiling water sound and maybe the sound of very shallow water gurgle if that makes any sense.  So air comes out of this vent, no gurgling sound, then when air sucks in and the teflon tape seals it up so it cant gt in, the gurgling sound really gets noticeable.  BUT when i stopped the air from being sucked into the radiator with the tape, it heated up very fast!  So strange.  Should there be some sort of vent that only lets air go one way?  I dont know how if there is water in the line, i could get it out...

Hmmm...

Excellent work!  How long did it take for the steam to make it from the boiler to the main vent?  It should be 3 minutes or less, if you start counting when the steams starts to leave the boiler.  If it is taking longer than that, you still need to increase the venting, especially on the line that is taking longer.

Regarding the other issues with the one problem radiator, I'm not sure what's going on, but I suspect that it would have heated up at the same time it did, that preventing it from sucking air back in was coincedental to the arrival of the steam.  If it were me, I would go around the house, and reset every vent to position 4, except the vent on this radiator, and I would set it at 7 or so, and see where you get.

re: hmmm

I am pretty sure it is less than 3 min for each.  Now the pipe and vent itself warmed up very significantly in less than 3 min for sure, but as for actually closing i am not sure.  how do i know for sure if they have closed or not?  i held teflon tape in front of them also to try and check, but by the time I did it seems they must have been closed because no air was coming out.

I will go around and retest with all vents at 4 except this one and try it.  I have to wait a little bit for the house and system to cool - that last test brought me up to 71 deg in here!!!  i'd like to try and time it from cold start....

 

When does a Gorton close?

We have had a few exchanges on this subject.  The Gorton tends to close around 130-140 F.  It does not make any sounds when this happens, so it is a little hard to tell.  What I usually do is feel the pipe that the vent is connected to.  There is little doubt when the steam arrives, it is suddenly VERY HOT!!!

Let us know your progress.

another update - main vent spitting a bit

So the latest update - I ran the system again from almost cold - luke warm anyway and there is still some issues with the main venting i think.  i turned all rad vents to 4 with the exception of the problem radiator, which was set to 7.

The front main (is the one that vents and heats the fastest) vents very fast and hard with(both have new Gorton #1's)  - doesnt seem quite right - i mean there is a lot of wind that comes out of that vent and after a couple minutes when the steam must have started coming out at its fastest, it even started to spit out some water - it was blowing the teflon tape i was holding in front of it all over the place - very strong air pressure being forced out.

On the other hand, the rear main does vent, but with nowhere near the same pressure coming out of the vent as the front main has.  so i cant imagine that it is undrvented.  it just isnt getting the pressure it seems.  it did take more than 3 min for sure for the stem that the vent was on to get pretty hot.  More like 8-10.  Oddly however, the problem radiator (which is on the rear main) did heat up at the same time as the others about 15 min to get good heat to them. 

So seems if i lower most rads to 4-5 range, keep the problem one open more, it might be a bit better balanced.  however, i am not sure what to make of the main venting issues. 

How might someone best diagnose a venting issue in a main?

pipe it

most residential boilers today require a 2-1/2" header

Smith still uses 2"

for most headers on the residential side of things.

update - something wrong with rear main still

Ok, so my update is that I have tested out the timing of how fast those two mains heat  up a couple times now. 

The front main with the Gorton vent it heats up even quicker.  From the time the boiler starts sending steam, i'd say about 4 min or give or take for the vent to be pretty hot.  By the way, this vent vents pretty fast and furiously can really hear the air rushing out fast.  Also, the vent was directly under a beam so ti was on a 3" nipple i'd say.  The old Vent-Rite vent used to spit a little cruddy water out, but this Gorton spit a great deal more out.  Is this normal to have happen?  The vents are located at the end or the returns (about 18" back from where they drop off to the floor).   I added a couple elbows, and a 4.5" nipple to go around the beam, and now the vent sits high and dry about 9" or more above the top of the main return.  No more spitting. 

The rear main however, something is still wrong.  I think that main is still trying to vent through the radiators maybe - air comes through the Gorton vent, but very slowly.   It takes a good 20-25 minutes for the vent itself to get hot.   But most of the main itself is hot but so are all the radiator riser pipes (or take-offs?).  My understanding is that if it were venting properly, that vent would be hot in no time, and the radiator risers still cool pretty much until the main vent closes.  There is not any water hammer in this pipe though - any ideas what else might be causeing the vent problems?  Can there be water blocking it and no water hammer?  I am at a loss where to even start!

Also, my water is (and has been for a while) quite dirty.  The heating guys are supposed to come back to give it another (2nd) skim soon, but I think it may be surging as the top of the sight glass seems damp and moist, not water cascading down or anything, but definitely moist.  Also the water moves up and down quite a bit.  Not violently, but when when the boil really starts going it seems to slowly go up and down a couple inches, or more at times.  Also, when at rest, the water level comes back up to w/in normal range.  But after it has been running 20 min it does a low water self-diagnostic test - shuts the boiler and checks the water level after 60 sec.  supposed giving time for foam to settle I think - The water however sometimes makes it almost all the way to the very bottom of the sight glass.  Sometimes the LED indicates low water and boiler doesnt come back on right away.  Also, each time this has happened the water feeder has NOT come on (which is good I think because after it sits a few more minutes the water does make its back up to the normal level (between min and normal).  Do you think I am producting wet steam which might be messing up the rear main?  Why isnt it messing up the front main?

Thanks again for taking time to read this!  You guys have been incredibly helpful so far, hopefully I can return the favor one day!

by the way, i just now purchased Dans book "We got steam heat!"!!!  Cant wait to get it! 

pictures

Can you take some pictures of your mains, how they run, and especially of both vents.  Another thing you might want to check is that there is no sag in that back main.

re: pictures

i will try and take some when i get home this evening and put them up.

There was sag in that rear main at one point (induced by a contractor we had do some remodeling work for us), and a couple weeks ago the boiler install folks had come back and discovered it and corrected the pitch (seemingly).  Prior to fixing the pitch - the main would get hot up to a point, then be cold beyond that point.  There would be some hammer noise and after a long time of the boiler running steam would eventually make its way past the sag (and pooled water). 

Since fixing the sag, there is no longer any point along the main where the heat stops dead like that.    It takes a long time to heat up still, and after say 15 minutes of steam being produced, the main pipe is definitely hotter up to the point of the last radiator take-off than it is at the main vent (which is pretty much at the end of the road). 

how fast

I think Dave is onto something with making sure there is no sag in the back steam main.

Next time you start from just a warm boiler see how the steam progresses down that rear main. If it slows down at a specific section there may be water pooling in that area of the pipe - pooled water will collapse steam.

Check that main and any radiator leaders that come off it with a level to make sure all the piping is sloped correctly. All building sag with age just like we do.

Until that boiler water is clean and the water level stays within about +/- 1/4" it's going to be difficult to balance the venting out. Even still it might be worth throttling back the rapidly heating radiators down to 3 or even 2. The Ventrites will vent between 0.036 and 0.125cfm from a setting of 2 through 8. the vent is off if it is set to 1.

Bob

sag

Thanks Dave and Bob!

Bob maybe you were writing your response before you saw my update, we posted just a couple minutes apart.  I was replying to Dave re: the sag in the pipe...

"There was sag in that rear main at one point (induced by a contractor we
had do some remodeling work for us), and a couple weeks ago the boiler
install folks had come back and discovered it and corrected the pitch
(seemingly).  Prior to fixing the pitch - the main would get hot up to a
point, then be cold beyond that point.  There would be some hammer
noise and after a long time of the boiler running steam would eventually
make its way past the sag (and pooled water). 



Since fixing the sag, there is no longer any point along the main where
the heat stops dead like that.    It takes a long time to heat up still,
and after say 15 minutes of steam being produced, the main pipe is
definitely hotter up to the point of the last radiator take-off than it
is at the main vent (which is pretty much at the end of the road). "

Clogged return

Sean,

You mentioned the LWCO was shutting the system down but that water was finding it's way back to the boiler after a few minutes and that the water feeder was not feeding water (probably because of a built in delay). Your return pipes maybe partially clogged with crud and might need to be snaked out. You might want to adress that before having the boiler skimmed again.

Post some pictures of that rear main, it's vent, and the return. Also how long is the return back to the boiler?

Dirty boiler water contributes to wet steam, maybe it is effecting the rear main more because of it's length?

Bob

re: clogged return

Thanks Bob! 

i will definitely get more pics up this evening.  Couple questions on your comment.
Could a partially clogged return pipe cause slow venting in a main? (by the way both returns join up into a single return pipe just before entering the hartford loop(?) and then going back into the boiler... so i would think a clogged return would slow both, unless of course the clog is only in the rear return and located before joining the front main return pipe (see attached diag.)

second question is where do you start/stop measuring the return from?  the last radiator take-off to where they re-join? 

As for the length of one return vs the other, both loops (front main/return and rear) are pretty close in length and almost mirror images (front slightly longer in total).  In the absence of pics, i just drew a diagram of how the basement system is piped and attached it.  I dont have dimensions (because i am in my office at work!) but it can give you an idea....

Should not normally cause venting issues

A clogged return won't slow venting unless the water backs up enough to block that vent. It's just that if we fix enough problems the cause of a particular problem often becomes clearer.

You seem to have a  parallel flow system so your dry return would run from the end of the main after the last takeoff to the point after the vents where it heads for the boiler return; the wet return is anything below the boiler water line. When they installed the boiler, did they check the existing wet returns to be sure they were clear?

As long as the mains are about the same length the venting on each should be about the same. I think Dave mentioned removing the rear main vent and see how it vents then - just be sure to be ready to kill the boiler when the steam reaches the open vent pipe.

How many sq ft of EDR do you have being fed by that 3 section boiler?

Bob

Test that Gorton #1

I am going to recommed that you remove the back Gorton that you just installed to see if it is clear.  I bought 4 Gorton #2 vents last summer.  One was stuck closed, the others were fine.  I was in the process of getting approval to send it back, and I was going to pack it up.  Even though I could not blow air through it before when it was positioned in the upright position, and also, it had no internal clatter from shaking it, like the others did, I should it real hard again.  All of a sudden, it began to rattle.  I turned it upright, blew through it, and it was fine. 
I suggest you try the same thing.  You might also try running the boiler with the vent removed and see how fast the steam gets to the open pipe.  But, watch it VERY closely, and be prepared to kill the boiler FAST when the steam arrives!  That should give you some comparison of how it works both with and without that new main vent.

Return piping pictures please

I was just looking the original pictures you posted of your boiler.  It is hard to see what is going on with the return piping behind the boiler.  Please take some more pictures, I am seeing something that does not make sense.

return piping

Thanks Dave, I will gets pics asap.  I put a little diag in my last post to illustrate - it might help.

  Also, re: the new Gorton vent - after it spit water last night i took it off and made sure i can blow thru it - no problem.  when you shake it you can definitely hear everything moving freely around also.... 

Return questions

Sean,
Good job on testing the vent. 

I see where your return drop down, go around the chimney, and then come up to the boiler, and turn up and connect into the hartford connection.  That is all good.

I also see where the equalizer goes down, around behind the boiler, and connects into the return tapping of the boiler.  Just behind that return tapping is a tee.  The side inlet is coming from returns/equalizer.  The connection going back, comes through a ball valve that is open, and before that, it is coming through a cast iron strainer.  Before that, I can't see.  Where is that line coming from?  What is it connected to?  Why is there a strainer in it?

i think i am with you...

Thanks Dave,

i am not sure what the strainer is!  is that the black thing that connects to a green piece which is then connected to a red piece?  VERY TECHNICAL! haha!!! 

the bottom left corner of the middle picture i originally posted?  If so that connects to a new megastore water tank that i also had installed.  i will post pics of that also tonight.

More Pics!

Wait, I just found i have some more pictures that I did not originally post because my original question was about my header/riser piping!

You can see both returns coming down and rejoining, and how the megastore is piped etc,..  can kind of see where the vents are in last photo behind the megastore but i will put better shots of that later

indirect water heater

OK, I get it now.  You are connected to an indirect water heater too.  The line is drawing the water from the bottom of the boiler, through the strainer first to protect the pump from sediment crud.  
I thought it was somehow connected to your houe return piping, but it is not.

Updated with Pics

Bob and Dave, I took more pictures and numbered them to put them in
some sort of order.  The first 2 show my vents and how/where they
are connected and the ends of the returns.  They are about 18" or so back from where the return
drops to the floor.  The vent on the left is for the front main.  It was
spitting a bit of water before as it was only on that first nipple
directly under the beam about 3 or 4" off the main (I had read somewhere
else it should be closer to 6") so i raised it using those elbows and
another nipple.  The vent on the right is for the rear main.  What you
see is the heating installers attempt to get it to vent better.  He
thought there was a vacuum happening as air would suck back into and out
of the ventrite that was on there so he added a vacuum breaker to it
(says Hoffman #62 vacuum breaker) on it. 

The next 2 pics show just the boiler and some near boiler piping. Photos
6-9 show the rear main piping starting at the boiler and looking leftish
and moving clockwise to the center of the basement where the returns
come back.  In 10-11 you can see in the return pipes that after the very last
radiator takeoffs, the mains hit reducers going from 2" down to 1.25"
pipes then both returns duck under a beam.  Photos 12-16 show the
front main and then some return piping
again.

Timing: I ran the
system again from a Luke warm starting point ( had been off for at least
45 min) to time things.  I have a hard time knowing for certain the
starting point of steam production so from the time the burner started
(prior to steam production) it took about 6-8 min before that front main
vent go too hot to even touch and the front rads were heating nicely
BUT the front  vent still vents so fast and furiously that it still
sucked water all the way up the new extended stem I made for it! Not
much but gave a nice squirt.  (btw the ventrite spat all the time also
but not a ton). 

Rear Main: Then, 8 min later
(t+16 at this time) the rear vent finally started to vent  pretty fast -
loud and fast enough I could hear it across the basement with boiler
firing.  It vented for a bit then slowed down.    The odd thing was it
was still cool to the touch.  Also during this entire time the main pipe
was seemingly heating up pretty evenly as far as I can tell - pipe was
hot at each radiator takeoff but not too far up each radiator pipe.  But
they didnt really heat up in series like one after another.  No cool
points on the main until you got past the last rad take off and to the
vent (i.e. the return pipe was only warm - not hot like the main between rads).  The main vent  still only pretty warm (no longer cool).  Then
the main vented fast again for a min or so, then slowed again... Still
only warm by t+18.  Then finally by t+20 it got too hot to touch. 

By t+25 to 30 or so, all radiators were producing a lot of heat - even the furthest away problem rad.

ALSO - i talked to installer this morning.  Two weeks ago when they fixed the sag in the rear main (hopefully fixed - maybe still an issue?) he said they suspected a clogged return also - took apart unions, inspected and was free flowing.  Also, they are coming to skim again this afternoon. 

Two issues.

This pictures of your 2 new vents are very helpful.  By the way, the vacuum relief vent was bogus on your installers part, he was barking up the wrong tree.  But, it will cause no harm to the system.

The photo of your vents shows me that you are not have just a little dribble of condensation coming out of the front vent.  I can tell from the rusty water streaks that it is squirting a lot of water, and it is rusty dirty boiler water.  That indicates that the boiler is still dirty, and needs to be skimmed much more to remove the oil and crud.  What is most likely happening, because of the oily water, it is causing water to be thrown up the boiler riser with the steam and it is enough that it all can't go back down the equalizer pipe.  So, it is heading up into your steam piping.  Naturally, it is going up the first pipe it comes to, more than the second.  So, you are getting a lot of water thrown up your front steam main.   This is going to cause all sorts of steam distribution problems and your system is not going to settle down until they do a bunch more skimming, which will get your boiler to be able to produce dry steam.

There is an additional thing that your pictures show, and it is of concern.  Your indirect water heater is being heated by water taken from the return connection and pumped by a small electric pump, through the exchanger on the indirect tank, and back to the boiler, where it is being discharged into the boiler through the skim port.  That skim port is at, or slightly above the normal water line, and coincedentally, directly beneath the supply port of the boiler where the steam exits.  This seems to me to be a recipe for producing wet steam.  If the pump is running to heat the water tank, it will be shooting water (at a temp lower than the boiling point) into the steaming area of the boiler, right beneath the point where the steam is trying to exit.

I have read the installation manual for your boiler, and I do not find any indication that this connection is approved for the purpose that your installer has used it.  I have also looked for additional connections that could be used, but do not find any.  If I were you, I would insist on communication from a Smith Boiler Representative in writing, or in person with you present, stating that the skimming port can be used as a return port for a pumped line used to heat an indirect water heater.  I strongly suspect that Smith Boiler will NOT approve it.

You will get this worked out.

Change the HW tank return

I agree with Dave. The skim port location is NOT a good place to return cool water. (In fact the only worse place i could think of would be to dump it straight into the header) It has got to be causing a hindrance to the production of dry steam. I would definitely have that changed.
Edit: Picture and comments removed as better solution suggested.
- Rod

Short Circuit

Rod, that's a good idea, but I'm affraid it would only short circuit because the water is being drawn from the return piping, just behind the boiler. 
I did discover that there is an unused return tapping at the front left corner of the boiler,  perhaps that would work.

HW tank return

Dave and Rod, thank you!!  I just spoke with the Smith rep for my area, and he's checking into it - needs to check with the Mega-stor people also i guess. 

Rod, would leading it down to the return piping where you indicated stir up and cause more sediment and gunk etc to be sent into the boiler?  I also think that line goes around back of the boiler and connects to the input of the HW tank.

The HW tank is on it's own zone also, would that make a difference?  Or could there times when the boiler is already firing, producing steam for the house, then the HW tank calls for more heat, so it shoots cool water into the boiler while it is making steam?!?  This sounds like a recipe for disaster and could make the boiler crack or something.

by the way, im looking at the install manual again now and like Dave said, there is nothing showing the way to connect an indirect HW tank.  However, they do show hooking up  a tankless HW heater coil - it looks like a module that might have to slide into that panel where the skim port is?  I am not sure!   Maybe goes where the LWC stuff is.

Side Location for Steam Boiler

Sean, keep reading.  The instant hot water coil for the steam boiler is on the side, near the back.  I see in you photos that you have a filler plate there.

Missed that!

Dave- Thanks for pointing that out. I missed seeing that in the pictures and did the dumb old "assume" that the outlet was coming out of a separate boiler port. Might it be beneficial to use the new found port as the source port and the one now used as the source as the return port?
It might provide a few degree hotter water.
- Rod 

re: short circuit

Dave, I was having some trouble with the LWC probe and the technician drained some water directly from the bottom of the boiler from that bottom front left port - so i think that goes directly into the bottom of it.  Could the HW tank return be fed back into here and still be able to drain the boiler if/when needed?


Also this leads to my next question - The manual shows the CW makup being connected directly to the boiler return line that is currently feeding the HW tank (the one with the electric pump).  However, the CW line is basically connected to the steam return piping that Rod indicated.  If makeup water can go in there w/o short circuiting why couldnt the HW tank return go into the port Rod indicated?  Could there be something, maybe the pump itself, in the boiler return line that currently feeds the HW tank which prevents the makeup water from getting past it?  i have seen the water feeder in action and it does kick on for about 30 seconds once every few weeks or so, and definitely raised up the sight glass water level significantly when i saw it working.

It will short circuit

If your water heater pump is running at the same time that the boiler fill opens and runs water into the piping, it certainly will be drawn in by the pump.  When the makeup water shuts off, the heater will again start to receive hot boiler water.

i see!

Thank you! 

  I am even confusing myself here - ha!!!

Just so that I am straight on this - in summary re: the piping of the HW tank --- what do you guys feel is the proper way to do it (both involve getting the return out of the skim port)? 

a) Use the front left port as the source of HW for the tank, and then have the return water go into the rear boiler return pipe (the current source)?
or
b) leave source like it is, and then lead the HW tank return down from the skim port to the port on the lower front left of the boiler?

Manufacturer's Specification Apply

It should only be connected according to the manufacturer's recommendations.  I am 99% sure that they will not approve the way it is currently connected. 

Here is a link to Weil-McLain's manual on their similar product. 

  http://weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/water-heaters/indirect-fired-water-heater/indirec_fired_water_heater_series3_plus_indirect_fired_water_heaters_manual.pdf

  You will note that the boiler taps that are used are specified to be "below the water line".  Also, and issue when pumping any loop off of a steam boiler, is the fact that water is often at the boiling temperature.  Running this hot of water through a pump can cause flashing, and cavitation, which will wear your pump out prematurely.  So, in this literature, you will see a crossover line that is used to temper the boiler whater before it gets to the pump.  Instructions and explanations are included. 

What is the make of your water tank?

re: Manufacturer's Specification Apply

The water tank is a mega-stor - and I couldnt really determine from their install manual how it should be connected to my boiler. 
I am not sure if pdf's I have tried to attach show up so here is a link to their manual

http://www.crownboiler.com/manuals/content/Indirect_Water_Heaters/MegaStor%2008-10%20R-5.pdf

 

doesn't show steam

From my quick skimming of the manual, I can't see that they make any recommendation on how to connect to a steam boiler.  You might want to contact Crown / megastore and see if it is even approved for that application, and if so, what their piping requirement would be.
Of course, exactly how it is connected to you Smith boiler is going to be determined by Smith. 

right...

thanks so much for taking a look Dave!

i'll wait and see what the Smith rep comes back with i guess then go from there...

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as wet steam production goes, is this issue less critical than my disgusting boiler water (for the time being)?  Our hot water demands are very low right now, just a couple showers in the a.m. and occasional washing dishes/dishwasher.  It seems that hours can go by before the HW tank wants a little heat up so hopefully its contribution to wet steam is not that bad.

skimming and sediment

i know this question might be best as a separate thread, but i am unsure of some terminology and things might be safest for me with a picture!

since the boiler is being skimmed today, i was wondering - is draining out a little bit of sediment (maybe a gal. of water or so at a time) something I can do myself over the next few days/weeks?  My thinking is that maybe when the system is cool, sediment might fall down to the bottom and i can get a little out at a time till its looking pretty clear.

If so - where would be the best place to do it from?  There is a valve near the floor directly under the CW makup feeder (on the return pipe- red handle with red arrow pointing to it).  There is also that port on the front bottom left of the boiler that the tech used to lower the water to take out the LWC probe.  The water that came out there was bad too....  Is this something I can do using either of these?  Or is there a better one?  Or should I just not even attempt this?

cleaning

that drain will only flush you wet return, not a bad thing to do.  Your drain at the front corner, is essentiall the mud leg.  A good place to flush the stuff that falls to the bottom of the boiler.  Most of the crud in a new boiler is oily, and is floating near the water line.  Thus, skimming is the only way to get it all out.  It will take many times over the course of several day.
search skimming on the wall here.
Also, see what the manual says about it.

thanks

thanks for all your help this week guys!  I really appreciate it!

Dave, i have been reading up a bunch about skimming - not confident to try it yet though and need do some more research for sure.  i wish i could have been there today when the tech came by to skim the thing - would have liked to seen it done first hand at least once....  i dont have a problem doing it myself as much as needed, but gettign the installers there a bunch more times seems daunting!

have a good weekend!

Skimming Port

Looks like your skimming port is on the front of the boiler just below and to the right of the pressure gauge. It has a square headed plug in it. You can either screw in a length of pipe into it or a fitting that will accept a garden hose, like on the mud leg.

You want to skim when the boiler is turned off and cool. Open up the skimming port and SLOWLY fill the boiler with fresh water, just a trickle. Do this until all the water runs clear and then do it a bit more. Fresh water is pushing the dirty water up and out the port. I spent several hours over the course of an afternoon swapping 5gl buckets until it was running clean for a couple of buckets worth.

After I cleaned my new boiler it made a big differnce in the performance of the system. It also really helps in producing dry steam. This will help a lot with your spitting vents as others have said.

Update - Now my problem is reversed - how can i properly balance mains

Thank you everyone for all the help and advice!   I am hoping you can help me out on how i might go about actually balancing the vent rates of the two mains now. 

Friday the installer came back and skimmed the system again.  And in the meantime he had been talking to someone he knows also re: the balancing issues.  He is experimenting a bit trying to figure this out I guess.  

in summary (as a reminder) my problem was initially that the front main (which is first to receive steam coming up out of the riser from the boiler) was venting super hard, and loud with undersized ventrite #35 on it, it would heat up and close fairly fast and a ton of heat would go to all the front radiators.  However, the rear main was taking FOREVER to heat and vent close (also with a ventrite #35), and some radiators never even heating up (the 2nd fl, furthest radiator).   I put on new Gorton #1's for both of the mains but still didnt really fix the issue with the uneven times to heat - just vented the mains faster (so likely an improvement in fuel savings for sure...).

but Friday the installer had removed the front main vent all together  and put a cap temporarily.  this actually resulted in a little bit of an improvement.  the front rads were set low though (like 3.5 and 4 for the most part) so of course it took a while to heat them all up - especially the further rads - but opening them wider where needed  helped a little.  The rear main however - the gorton still on it - vented properly for once!  It heated up and closed in no time, all rads, even the furthest problem rad heated up incredibly well.  So now my problem is reversed - i am getting great heat in the rear and not the front!  This is somewhat good news also though, because maybe now I can safely assume that water in the rear main and/or slow/clogged returns can be eliminated.

So anyway, i monitored how it all worked for Saturday to report back to the installers today.  then Sunday, i took the cap off, and put a ventrite #33 back on on the front main.  Of course this was a nice improvement over no vent (i tried to make sure no rad vent was set too high though so it didnt outvent the main #33 - but still took a bit to close)...  for some reason it didnt cross my mind that the two mains might benefit from being vented at two different rates.... seems logical in hindsight!

My question is, is there a better way to balance out these mains than trial and error?  do they make anything to read the pressure on the tapping and go from there?  Or should I just try different configurations - for example i was thinking of trying next, hooking up both gorton #1's on the rear main, and hooking up both ventrites on the front (because I already own all these vents!).  But that is the same ratio I have now (which is 0.11/0.33 cfm front to rear) just scaled up by a factor of 2.  If thats no good, should i pick up another gorton #1 for the front?  maybe 1 gorton #1 on the front and two on the rear?  or maybe 2 ventrites on front and 1 gorton on rear for a .22/.33 cfm ratio.        I.e. is there a way to figure out what the best ratio should be? 

related to that, the vents would be hooked up candelabra style   - is this ok?  I cant seem to find out what the airflow rate is the for 1/2" pipe that is tapped into the main - would two gorton #1's at 0.33cfm each (0.66cfm total) exceed the capacity for a 1/2" pipe anyway? 

OR am i just barking up the wrong tree, and differences between the front and rear mains (pressure, length, # of rads, etc.)  dont matter - just  vent both as fast as humanly possible and forget everything else?  by the way, if this were true then why do they make all these different main vents with different cfm rates etc?  Why not just make one kind that is the same diameter and airflow as your main pipe (size of an open pipe) ?   

Any more advice you might be willing to offer would be greatly appreciated!

Main Venting

It sounds like the issues due to water coming up into your main has been corrected by skimming....

So, regarding venting. 
You cannot have too much main venting.  The whole purpose is to let the air flow freely out of the main vents as the steam is coming down the pipe, so that its tendency to flow into the radiators before the mains are fully filled with steam will be avoided.  Once steam starts to flow into a radiator, it will slow down the movement of the steam down the main(s).    It is desirable to vent the mains in 2-3 minutes.  I forget the size of your pipe, and the total length, but here are some numbers that will let you figure what your min venting should be.  2" pipe has .023 Cubic feet per linear foot.  2 1/2" pipe has .03 cf/lf, 3" pipe has .053 cu ft/lf.

The venting capacity of a piece of 1/2" pipe is 2.6 CFM at 1 oz of pressure.  I suspect that your Gorton #1s may still be a bit on the small size, but you can measure and do the math.

The other important part of the equation is keeping your radiators slow.  There is a tremendous difference on those Hoffman 1A vents at the low end of the scale.  Also, there is usually some sloppy play in the fitting of the adjusting ring and the center screw.  Therefore, while you have a vent set at 2, if you wiggle it, it may actually vent much faster, or slower, depending on how it is centered.

As a point to proceed, I would do some measureing.  See how much volume you have in your steam mains.  Divide by 3, and that is the venting that is required in cfm to vent your mains in 3 minutes.  If you come up with a fractional amount err on the side of excess venting.  Keep in mind that if you are venting through a 1/2" pipe, 2 Gorton #2s is the maximum that the 1/2" can vent.  3 Gorton #2s on a half inch pipe will still only vent about the amount as 2 would.

Next, turn all of your Hoffman 1A vents down to 2.  See if your mains both heat up in close (30-40 seconds) to each other.  If they are not perfectly balanced, as one main vent station closes, the steam will quickly push down the other main until it closes, unless your radiator vents are venting an amount that allows your radiators to go into competition for that steam.  If the radiators are venting too fast, they will win, and it will take forever for the steam to get down the slower main.  As your mains are venting, you ideally see no steam coming into your radiators.  If you are beggining to get steam into any radiator before the mains are fully steamed, turn that radiator down to 1. 

The most important part of the balancing is between the main vents and rad vents.  Mains should be FAST!  Radiators should be SLOW!  This balance is far more important than balancing the 2 mains.  If one main fills 30 seconds sooner than the other one, the second one will catch up very quickly and completely.  But, only as long as your radiators are SLOW, and of course, you are getting dry steam and not throwing water up into your steam mains.

re: main venting

Dave thank you so much for all of the detail!!!!     i will figure the math when i get home tonight and measure total lengths.

i need to lower my rad vents for sure - and being new to the concepts of steam heat, i have a hard time reconciling the idea of slowing down the rads to make them work better - i always tend to think i want to turn them up wanting the most heat as fast as possible so the system doesnt run so long and burn all that fuel!  I have gone through an OBSCENE amount of fuel since the system was put in at the end of Nov.

by venting the rads much slower, thereby speeding up the mains getting filled, can I expect to reduce the amount of time the system has to run to maintain or even raise the temp in the house?  I understand that we want the mains to vent first and close, but does slowing down the radiator, make it take much longer to provide enough heat to satisfy the thermostat?

Even out the heating

Understand that even when you lessen the venting on your radiators, the steam is still going to go into them, evenly and equally, if all goes well.  The pressure in your system is still going to be 1 or 2 oz as you are slowly, but evenly heating up your radiators. It is the same amount of steam, and nothing is being wasted on building pressure.  What you are going to do by slowing down the radiators, is you will be directing the steam where to go.  When your radiators are vented to fast, "they" decide where the steam is going to go.  When you let your radiators duke it out in the battle for steam, the one that can suck the hardest wins the battle, and will leave one or more with nothing, at least they will get their steam so late, that it will seem as if it were nothing.
If your house is evenly heated, with no cold spot, no hot spots, it stands to reason that you would burn less fuel.  However, this has been a very cold winter, and you have probably wasted fuel via the fact that parts of your house were over heated and other parts were not getting any heat at all.

Hopefully, it will be better.  My 8,400 sq ft building burned $1,300 worth of natural gas in the month of January.  $1,162 on December.  Wanna trade?  :)

update

my update is (knock on wood)  that everything is working *good*!  i did not think it would ever happen!  Thank you all for all the extra effort you put in for me, all the advice, analyzing my pictures, looking up and posting manuals etc.!

so the boiler was skimmed by the installers last friday, and skimmed again on Monday prior to the arrival of the 4th or 5th snowpocalypse this season.  After Fridays skimming it still seemed to be surging a bit, so i asked them to come back.  but the waterline is *fairly* stable now in that sight glass - moves w/in an inch range or less i'd say and the top of the sight glass is very dry.  most of my problems seem to have been caused by 1) inadequate main vents (only had Ventrite #35 on each) and 2) bad surging, tons of water getting sucked up into the mains, wet steam, etc.  This 1 & 2 combo caused a self-reinforcing feedback loop that it was all stuck in - because i would go an incorrectly adjust rad vents - not knowing when they were all the way open they could even exceed the venting capacity of my main vents! 

now - no gurgling sounds whatsoever - anywhere.  i can no longer hear a single one of my radiator vents venting (used to hear tons of loud uneven whistling and venting), all radiators off both mains heat up now and do so fairly close to at the same time.   even the furthest 2nd floor radiator works!  I thought it might never work again,....

one last question:

I calculated the "theoretical" required main vent capacity i might need to vent the mains within 3 min.  Each main is about 50' and 2" pipe, so call it needing about a 0.38 cfm vent rate to vent my main in 3 min.  I have a Gorton #1 on the front main with a 0.33 cfm vent rate, and then on the rear main i removed the vacuum breaker and put a ventrite #35 (which I already had as an extra) in its place - so the rear main has a Gorton #1 and a ventrite #35 for a total venting rate of 0.44 cfm. 

However, it still takes 7-9 min for both mains to vent (from cold/luke warm start).  Even though the rear main has more capacity it doesnt really vent all that much faster (which is fine...).     Question is, should I bother purchasing 2 more Gorton #1's and putting two of them on each main (~0.66 cfm capacity)?  Or should i just leave well enough alone - its working, and thats a far cry from where i was a week or two ago.  Are the  savings from the extra couple minutes (maybe) going to be big enough to outweigh the extra $50 i'll pay?

i know, ideally i should have just bought the gorton #2's (the huge ones) - but i was in desperation mode then and bought the best i could with what the local supplier had!  so now im invested in the #2's....

Success at Last!! Hurray!

Sean, if you want to know if a larger vent would have any effect on how long it takes your mains to vent, try this.  Remove the vents altogether, and fire the boiler.  See how long it takes for steam to arrive.  If there is a significant decrease in the amount of time, I would go aheat and buy 2 Gorton #2s, and I'd put one #2 and one #1 at each vent station.  That would give you 1.43 CFM at each.

If you see no significant difference between an open pipe and your current vents, then it would be a waste of money.

Will it save you money?  Maybe, maybe not.  If you determine that increasing your venting will speed it up, what it will do for your system is to assist in that never ending battle of having the steam arrive at every radiator at the same time.  This is especially noticeable in mild weather when you have short cycles.  Getting even heat in your home will probably save you money because you will be more comfortable and less likely to crank up the thermostat.