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    Install pictures of four on demand HWH for Rest. (26 Posts)

  • Scott Scott @ 7:15 AM
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    Install pictures of four on demand HWH for Rest.

    This is a job we are just about completed on.
    The owner of the restaraunt had a atmospheric gas boiler with a 200 gallon storage, The boiler has failed and we installed these four Hybrid Eternal on demand hot water heaters. The owner will see a HUGE fuel savings this year as these units will manage his hot water production,
    By the way ... a little hairy soldering next to the sprinkler head :)
    This post was edited by an admin on February 10, 2011 7:16 AM.
  • David Sutton David Sutton @ 8:49 AM
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    Now thats Art !

    Looks great Scott !!  you got a great team !!

    David
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:55 AM
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    Thankless water heaters...

    They toil and sweat all day long, and does anyone ever go down and thank them? NO!

    Have you hugged your boilers today? (I actually had a bumper sticker to that effect at one point in time).

    Hey Scott, did you lose your ProPress tool?

    What about J Chris A? Haven't heard or seen him in quite some time...

    Nice job.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • LarryC LarryC @ 11:15 AM
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    How do you get them to share the load?

    How do you get them to share the load?
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 12:46 PM
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    No Mark he did the math

    and decided to move the cash to his pocket not his wholesalers. Nice neat job.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 12:51 PM
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    You must not value your labor Charlie...

    And if you are not charging the customer for your parts, then there is something seriously wrong with that picture.

    Having been there and done that, with labor being our most expensive commodity, the end results to the consumer, when using PP was positive dollar savings. And as far as leaks are concerned, I have had ZERO leaks with ProPress.

    Just my opinion and experience.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 5:00 PM
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    I do value my labor.

    I also do charge for parts. But I earn more of a return on my labor than my parts.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 5:02 PM
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    I saw today they have press fittings

    for iron pipe. galvanized and black iron now. How long until I see steam boilers where they try and use it there?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 7:22 PM
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    They've had them in Germany for about 20 years...

    They are just now making to our shores.

    I guess we can civily agree to disagree. You have your method of doing business, and I have mine, and they obviously are very different from each other.

    I've already seen steam boilers with ProPress copper fittings on it, and it was actually holding up, tho I would NEVER suggest anyone try it.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 10:24 PM
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    Yes I think we do look at thing a bit different

    I do not look forward to the way thought is being removed from our trade. The results of change are sometimes wonderful and I do embrace things that benefit my clients and my business. I am the son of a man who started and finished his apprenticeship in a European nation, although he would deny being from Europe. ( It's a Scottish thing) Many of the things reaching our shore are not what I would consider an improvement. Boiler tech, pumping methods, and cleaner emissions I welcome. Things that take pipe fitting to little more than an erector set leave too much work to people not of a skill level capable of doing the job properly and efficiently. IMHO
    That said if handled well they do open up time for properly trained people to get on to the next job. I think the issue I am having with press fittings is many of the installations I see are like the PEX installs I see. Sloppy. Quick should not be an excuse to be sloppy. That I think we can agree on. The same people installed copper and threaded iron sloppy.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.
    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Scott Scott @ 5:57 AM
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    Hello Mark

    I have not lost the three P/P tools I have. I use them where I think they fit best. A new install with a lot of 2" copper .... I think I'll solder. 2" P/P fittings add up quickly and I can solder pretty quickly. Besides .. I do like the look :)
    I have to agree that I do see a loss of craftsmanship with some of the new product. I think the old timers felt that way about PVC.
    Most importantly here is the fuel savings we are bringing to the customer. These four use a cascade control that will provide him with just the right amount of hot water production. This is a large seasonal business. Winter months do not need a 200 gallon storage which is what he had before. Summer time with a higher city water temperature and these baby's will hum. 
    And YES, he'll get a call from us at the end of the summer season telling him its time for service.
    Thanks for the nice comments.
    Scott
  • tim smith tim smith @ 8:51 AM
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    Re: water heater install & such

    Scott, great looking job and I totally agree that sweating copper is an art that we don't need to lose. Also if you are profficient, you can do almost as fast and then the fitting costs offset the speed. I do think there are occasions that flameless is needed or required, thats when you should do it in my book. 
     Side note, how many of the Eternals have you done, any problems along the way with them? I liked there downfire design but still a little queezy on the quality of the internals. Just wunderin cause the interest me. Tim
  • Scott Scott @ 6:10 AM
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    Great Product

    Tim,
    I have a had a great experience with the Eternals. we had one with a bad board and I think that's it. It is on of the most well built and thought out products I have seen in awhile. All S.S., 20 year warranty and a 2 gallon tank to eliminate the "cold sandwich".
    Scott
     
     
  • Wayco Wayne Wayco Wayne @ 6:48 AM
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    Nice looking job

    thanks for sharing the pics. I come from the hvac side of things so I have no experience with the tankless products. I have taken some out where people have tried to use them instead of boilers and it didn't work. sawmill surgery was my diagnosis baby! I have never seen this product before but i looked at their web site and it looks well designed. I think a good tankless would fit well backing up a solar thermal storage tank. I still use the pro press tools but agree the larger fittings get very expensive very fast, and I still like to solder. It's therapeutic. Playing with fire while staying focused on the soldering process mist be like meditation for me. Ooohhhmmm. WW
  • heatech heatech @ 2:36 PM
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    yes

    you hit it right on the money. pride and workmanship seems lost too often now.
  • Jack Jack @ 8:52 AM
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    that is a nice looking job, Scott

    And I am sure it will please the owner both in performance and economy.

    As to the pp discussion, well, I was in the last apprenticeship class that had to wipe lead in our local. I did a lot of lead and oakum CI and then we had the great advancement to no-hub. Terrific, I spent all my time drilling 3/4" red-heads as you had to put about a million hangers in to support it. Then on to PVC/ABS. For the iron pipe the Victaulic was a great advancement except for the mechanic who had to butter up the gasket, the fitting halves, the pipe and then try to hold it together with greasy hands while trying to place the bolts.
    There are all kinds of "advancements" in the technology of piping, making it easier for about anyone to do the work. What will not be replaced by that technology is the eye and the heart of the mechanic who knows what he is about and can lay it out so it looks like it is supposed to be there. I get to see a lot of jobs, and it is such a pleasure to walk into a guys, or gals job and see a really nicely laid out job. Personally, I think we should heli-arc everything 2" and above;)
  • Gary Gary @ 8:08 PM
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    venting

    Was curious about the venting . We've done several multi-tankless installs and venting was always the biggest [and expensive] problem.
  • Scott Scott @ 12:57 PM
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    Venting

    Venting worked out well here all though it doesn't show in the pictures.
    We used a 6" common vent that used the same side wall hole as the previous heater. We then gave each unit its own fresh air intake with 2". Worked well and common vent kept the a good distance from the fresh air inlets. 
  • Steve Steve @ 6:30 PM
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    Venting

    Are there other tankless models that can be common vented. Just curious
  • Henry Henry @ 2:15 PM
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    Comon venting

    First, it is a very nice job. I will check into the Eternals. You comon vented the units.Is it in the manufacturer's instruction booklet, the i&o manual? WHy are you taking combustion air from the room. Are you not worried about negative pressure in the restaurant? I assume the load is over 400mbh, where did you install the combustion air inlet and the 10%?

    Curious!

    Henry
  • Scott Scott @ 6:09 AM
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    HI Henry

    1) Yes it is in the manufactures instructions. They have charts that show sizing for the number of units used,
    2) I took these photos before we were completed, Each unit has its own fresh air intake from the outside. Your right, negative pressure in restaurants is a huge problem.
    3) Each unit is rated at 195,000. With all four running we had 37° inlet water temp. and were producing 165°
    4) Not sure what you mean by 10% ?? 10% of what ?
  • Henry Henry @ 8:27 AM
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    10% dilution air

    You must be in the US as NFPA54 does not require dilution air for appliances with a total of over 400,000 BTU. Our B149 requires 10% of the total combustion air crossection to be installed as dilution air, near the top of teh mechanical room.

    With the new low water content boilers that don't give off any heat, it is a great way to partialy freeze a mechanical room!
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:44 AM
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    Why do they call them a hybrid?

    Does it run on electricity too?

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • bob bob @ 11:48 AM
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    Hybrid

    I think it's because they are part tank type and part tankless.
    bob
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 1:41 PM
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    Concerning the venting setup

    here is what the factory states:

    Good Morning Mr. McElwain,
     
    Thank you for your interest in the Eternal Advanced Hybrid water heaters.
     
    The GU195M unit, which is designed for use in multiple unit applications, can be common vented for exhaust. Up to four units can share the same exhaust pipe. If you were to do this, you would need to utilize 6" PVC piping for the common run (rising to the run from each unit would require 3" PVC). If you are drawing the combustion area from the space around the units, you would be able to have a maximum run length of 60 feet with a total of 5 90 degree elbows (deducting 5 ft from the run for each elbow).
     
    I have included with this email a copy of the Eternal's Installation and Operations manual, which includes all of our installation specifications for the Eternal, including for multiple unit installs. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact Grand Hall.
     
    Andrew Hall
    Inside Sales
    Grand Hall USA, Inc.
    T. 866.946.1096
    F. 972.279.8440
    [u]www.eternalwaterheater.com[/u]
     
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 6:29 PM
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    No Henry NFPA 54 does

    not specifically call for dedicated dilution air. There is a requirement for size of equipment versus room size on residential. Also requires make up air if any mechanical venting is required and air is brought from with in the room.

    ANSI Z83.3 Requirements for Large Boilers does have a air requirement for boilers over 400,000 BTU's. With the recent process of cascading equipment the codes will have to change if those units are going to get air from with in the space.
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