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    Jury Rules That CSST is a Defective Product (95 Posts)

  • Chris Chris @ 11:24 AM
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    Jury Rules That CSST is a Defective Product

    I was unaware of this case separate from the class action suit. Pretty interesting.

    http://www.subrogationrecoverylawblog.com/2010/10/articles/products-liability/csst-1/jury-rules-that-csst-is-a-defective-product-in-landmark-case/
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • lchmb lchmb @ 11:30 AM
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    hmm

    Sounds like it could create alot of replacement work in the very near future...thanks for posting..:)
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 12:46 PM
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    Grumbling about CSST.

    In an earlier thread, I grumbled that my former contractor, who installed some of this when replacing my oil burner with a gas one, did no bonding of the CSST at all. I tried to figure out how to do it legally and effectively, and could not figure it out at all. At the gas meter end, there is a dielectric union to prevent grounding through the gas meter (as there should be). It would do no good to ground through the meter anyway because the gas company pipe is all plastic. One thought might be to install a suitable grounding stake next to the meter, but all the grounds of the house should be near each other, and as close to the power panel as possible. The power panel is far far away from the gas. I never resolved this issue.

    Now it seems there is no point resolving the bonding issue, since this jury's decision implies that bonding is not enough. Looks as though I will have to have the CSST ripped out and replaced by black pipe and two 45 or 90 degree elbows. I suppose I will need to get the gas inspector back in, the same one who approved the unbonded CSST in the first place.
  • lchmb lchmb @ 1:04 PM
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    JDB

    The bonding should be done where the the pipe enter's the house, attaching to the pipe adapter, not the pipe,  using a #6 ground wire. It is suggested to go to the electric panel from that point. I believe the cutoff is 30 feet max distance but I may be wrong. Due to the need to enter the electric panel it should be done by a licensed electrician. As far as black iron, I have installed alot of it and once done dont generally have any issues..
    This post was edited by an admin on February 26, 2011 1:07 PM.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 2:40 PM
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    I know how the bonding should be done, but

    the house is just not set up so it can be done. Connecting the bonding to the fitting is the only way that would make sense anyway, because connecting to the flexible part with enough pressure would probably crush it.

    It is my understanding that the CSST should be bonded at both ends, and to the same point as the power panel is grounded. Maybe #6 wire is good enough for life safety, but I cannot see using anything much less than #4 or even larger when dealing with lightning induced  currents. But it is about 16 feet from where the CSST starts (nearest the meter) to the other end of the CSST, at least 20 more feet from there to the power panel, and then about 30 more feet to where the ground stakes are. Even if legal, that is not good.

    If I stuck a ground rod near the meter, there would be two widely separated grounds in the system, and the common mode noise in the event of a near hit would probably be enough to zap the CSST, and I do not know if the gas company would like me sticking a ground rod in the ground there right next to their plastic delivery pipe by the meter.

    If I have the money this summer, I think I will have it pulled out and replaced with black pipe. It would have been so much easier if they had done that in the first place. They had the black pipe, the cutter, the threading machine, lots of nipples and fittings. And it could have been a straight run. Now they will need a couple of extra elbows and a nipple.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 3:11 PM
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    Bonding:

    Of course it can be bonded now. You use those adjustable bonding clamps on the brass pipe fittings and and bond it into the rest of the bonding stuff. If you have to drive some ground bonding rods into the soil under the house, so be it. As long as you don't have ant orphan connections. They all must be tied together. The whole idea is to give stray current a way to get back into the earth. An easier way that it might pick so you give it a better choice.
    When they do a lightning protection system, they are supposed to bond everything metal to the system. That includes garage door tracks so that is some stray lightning finds the tracks, it will have an easier time getting where it wants to go.
    Remember, lightning goes both ways. Up and down. It will go through the earth and find a conductor to travel up to get back to the cloud where it started. A common problem where I work is an in-ground current, looks for a way to get back. It will find a 4" PVC well casing, blow a hole through the PVC casing, travel up the wire, hit the pressure switch, blow it all over the cellar along with the pressure switch and lightning arrestor, through the copper pipes and join up with the current that came in on the ground/neutral of the electrical and television service, melt the phone wires and spray hot copper bits all over the cellar, travel up the house to the finished garage office where it comes out of  floor plug, travels through the floor lamp, enters the ceiling, exits through the roof, and blows the wood shingles off in an upward direction. Where it goes to join its other ion brothers to create havoc on the sky.
    And I have to replace the pump and well for the sand running into the casing from the hold.
    Life can be good.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 4:22 PM
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    Lightning adventures.

    Your discussion of what lightning can do reminds me of an incident near here that was similar, though smaller. The local railroad was electrically powered with 12,500 volt catenary wher ethe circuit breakers were set at 1,500 amps. The crossing gates were aluminum extrusions. No problem until a careless driver hit the gate and bushed it enough out of alignment so when it went back up, it hit the catenary system. The gate melted. But the flashing red lights on the arm of the gate were connected to the control system in a bungalow (a metal structure) nearby. They have a little lightning protection, but cannot resist a direct hit of course. When the 12,500 went down the wire, through the ground, and intothe bungalow, it hit the relay contacts. WOW! These contacts are about 3/8 inch in diameter of silver-graphite "alloy". They are each inside a clear plastic box to protect them from dirt and insects. THE SILVER JUST PLAIN EVAPORATED and condensed on the inside of the plastic box.

    As far as lightning going both ways, that is for sure. A cloud above and the surface of the ground below make a capacitor. The path between through which the current flows has inductance, so there is a tuned circuit and the lightning discharge is oscillatory; the freqauency determined by the capacitance and inductance. This is usually too high to see with the naked eye, but can be observed with suitable instrumentation.

    In my situation, driving an additional ground stake would be easy (if I do not hit the plastic gas pipe buried in there by mistake), but tying it in with the rest of the grounding would result in excessively long bonding wires between the various portions of the system. And with the ground stakes widely separated, the ground currents from a near miss would be very high, causing huge ground loop currents in the bonding between the various ground stakes. I am afraid it will be simpler and cheaper to just remove the damned CSST and have black pipe put in. It is a staight piece about 15 feet long, two elbows, and a nipple. All one-inch.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 1:11 PM
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    Getting into a load of head aches now

    I have a job a heating company installed a wall heater with CSST and never got it inspected or bonded it. Now the home owner is left holding the bag when I get my work inspected. Also the plumber who installed the stove and water heater never pulled a permit. They had used CSST to the water heater. As I was running past I changed it to iron while I was piping to the boiler. I really do not see the savings in an open basement of using CSST when weighed against the liability.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 1:35 PM
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    The BAD thing about this....

    Once the insurance companies catch wind of this decision, if you KNOW you have it in your house, AND you have a near lightning strike that causes the CSST to Swiss Cheese on you, your home has no fire coverage...

    I discovered this the hard way with the Entran 2 cases. I had a retired pastor who had it in his house, and after the jury found it to be defective, his insurance company would no longer cover ANY water damage claims until it was completely removed, regardless of the source.

    The failure of this stuff is well documented on the internet. I also work with another expert witness who has investigated many CSST failures, and he said it is JUNK and should be removed wherever it has been installed. An accident waiting to happen.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 1:40 PM
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    CSST Bonding

    For what it is worth, You use a bonding clamp in the FITTING, bot the CSST tubing. What is what most electricians thought you had to do. it was never suggested that you do that. If you took a CSST course to be certified, and you had to be certified to install whatever brand you were installing, they taught you how to ground it. And it was the electricians job to do it. When the big issue of lightning strikes came up, and they finally got it re-approved in MA, it was some wiring inspectors who wouldn't allow it because there was nothing in their big NEC code about bonding CSST. Even a diagram showing how to do it didn't sway them.  The company (WardFlex, TightFlex? Whatever) that came out with the black CounterStrike brand has a high carbon cover and an aluminum screen inside the cover that makes for a continuous ground.bond. You still bond it WITH A CLAMP ON THE BRASS FITTING!!!! Not the CSST tubing.
    Other than being only .010" thick, stainless steel is a terrible conductor of heat. If something is a terrible conductor of heat, then it is a terrible conductor of electricity.
    If you are in a house that gets a strike, a really good strike, things are toast. Most houses have no really proper amount of grounding, Let alone, bonding. A lost art or unknown science.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 1:55 PM
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    Defective CSST

    That's over 14,000 miles of CSST pipe installed and a few holes in some pipe and the world ends. Pigs at the cash trough are now lining up for the feeding frenzy.
    Where I work is one of the lightning capitols of New England. Houses are severely damaged regularly. I heard about one house being hit where there was a pin hole. It hadn't been bonded. The NEC (I am told) says that everything is supposed to be bonded, It wasn't. Try to get Sparky to ever ground/bond anything for you. Don't hold your breath waiting.
  • lchmb lchmb @ 4:21 PM
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    JDB

    The last course I attended for Tracpipe only require's one bonding clamp where the pipe enter's the house. You do not have to do both ends. And being 15 feet from the meter, #6 wire is all they require. Your not looking for a direct lightning strike, it's the indirect current that is the concern.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 5:03 PM
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    From where the pipe enters my house...

    to the power panel where I would expect to ground it (ignoring the 30 feet of so from there to the ground stakes) is about 40 feet, not 15.
  • Chris Chris @ 4:56 PM
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    What caught my Eye

    Was the paragraph that NFPA is considering banning it. That caused me to do a little digging at their site. They did call for and are conducting a study as to whether the bonding itself will prevent failures from a strike. That final report according to what I could find was given a Jan 2011 date of submission but I couldn't find the final report itself. Will be interested in its findings when it comes out.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 6:42 PM
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    Better ban

    black pipe and copper. Being an old timer I have seen it all, in fact I used to have a picture of one of these can't seem to find it. Anyway here goes, 1972 during an electrical storm got a call for a fire on a roof with two gas roof top heaters. Upon arrival sure enough the 1 1/2" gas line running across the roof to one of the heaters was on fire. I shut the gas off at the meter and went up on the roof, during the electrical storm which was about an hour before my arrival the lightning had struck the gas line on the roof and blew a hole in the schedule 40 black pipe, not only that but two gas valves and four transformers got cooked.

    This is another separate incident which I have actually seen happen several times. The flex connector on gas ranges had a hole blown in the connector which  occurred during electrical storms.

    Last of all a two inch copper pipe with water running through it running to a gas roof top air conditioner had a hole blown in three different spots.

    Lightning is powerful stuff so the truth be known nothing can resist lightning. 
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:11 PM
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    Mother nature

      Tim, the only thing I can say to that is what if in those situations it was csst pipe?

     Probably more failures from csst do to wall thickness, or even wall shape (corrugated) verses the pipes you mention in your post. Thoughts Tim?


    Gordy
    This post was edited by an admin on February 26, 2011 7:13 PM.
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 8:49 PM
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    To the best of my knowledge

    and I certainly stand to be corrected this only happened once. Most of the time everything gets grounded through the bare copper wire that is attached to the equipment and that back to the grounding rod.

    Back 10 years ago the code book required all gas lines to be bonded at the point were they came out of the ground. It was usually a clamp on the outlet pipe that went directly to the electrical ground rod. If not close to that then a separate rod had to be installed. Truth no one or very rarely did anyone bother to do this. Here in Rhode Island we had one electrical inspector who demanded it be done. A few years later that was removed from the code book and it stated that as long as the integrity of the electrical system bare copper (ground) wire was in place no bonding was required.

    While we are talking about this how many times have you gotten a shock from the gas line. One of my service techs many years back got hit with 600 volts. It is a good idea to test all piping with a meter before you touch it.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 26, 2011 8:53 PM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:58 AM
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    Let's ban lightning....

    Just kidding :-)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 11:57 PM
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    Good riddance

    Wont miss it at all. Just more junk that takes the skill out of our trade. I for one enjoy cutting and threading steel pipe.
  • heatech heatech @ 2:01 PM
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    yes

    here here
  • heatboy heatboy @ 11:14 AM
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    So, I'm hearing......

    ....that anyone who chooses to use this product, is contributing to the lack of skills we face?  All the piping changes or advancements over the years, like, PEX, PVC, ProPress and even copper, instead of iron pipe, have dumbed us down?

    I agree there is a vast shortage of skill shown on some projects these days, but I certainly don't blame the products.  More, it's the integrity of the individual that is the overwhelming issue we face.  And that, you can't police.
    heatboy

    The Radiant Whisperer


    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
  • TonyS TonyS @ 4:21 PM
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    Stand back and look at the big picture

    Our piping is carrying flammable gas into the living structure. The same place where children and pets and loved ones live and sleep. We know for a fact that black steel has a life span of over a hundred years. Even in basements where women hang their clothes to dry on the gas pipe, kids practice riding their bicycles and whatever else people do in their homes that inadvertently require the use of gas pipe as a hanger or hold. I'm not saying I approve of these things but we have all seen it.
    So explain to me what advantage this csst is for your customer! Really... did it save them tons of money because an apprentice could do it instead of a fitter? How many millions of feet of this stuff are in before they told us to bond it? Does it really make you feel better knowing your customers lives are betting on a ground wire that could corrode or inadvertently be disconnected and will probably never be tested to begin with or ever afterwords.  Nah Ill stick to using steel for my customers and ill sleep a little better at night. Ill be more than happy to remove this crap and put it in the same pile as the ultravent and plexvent. Two more of the advancements you forgot to mention.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 6, 2011 9:22 PM.
  • RobbieDo RobbieDo @ 1:25 PM
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    Bonding

    I'm a electrician also. The Trac pipe ( which I don't like to use ) is suppose to be bonded to the electric service, #6 bare copper wire, with proper connectors that go on the connector, not the SS pipe. I have seen some much of this installed and not properly bonded it's crazy. Many years ago you didn't have to bond conduit, you relied on the connector screw to ground the conduit, now youmhave to pull a ground wire completely through the conduit as the screws are not a good ground. Just like grounding on either side of water meter, rubber bushings. Trac pipe is the same.
    Rob
  • Glen Glen @ 10:29 PM
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    I have to comment -

    and ask the question; " is bonding being confused with grounding.?" The CSA B 149.1 and the Canadian Electrical Code do not consider them the same. Bonding ensures electrical continuity of the appliances and piping in the gas system. As such about 100 VA is a maximum it can handle. Grounding must be able to withstand the complete load if there is a failure in the electrical system; typically 240 VAC/200 amps. I do not believe any CSST product has been tested or approved to withstand the full force of lightening. That would be separate protection isolated even from the household electrical ground. Bonding is accomplished by securing a #6 bare conductor between the gas piping and the water piping. One could I suppose attach a large brass or bronze bonding clamp to a CSST connection fitting; and while I have not looked at the newest catalogues for a while - I'll bet each manufacturer makes a specific attachment for bonding. The news article is interesting reading - but any savvy risk assessment lawyer will have it shot full of holes in short order. Even sch 40 A53 will melt with a full charge of lightening. I have used the Gastite product for years and it has it's place - most times - I'd rather twist pipe.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:48 AM
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    Csst for the DIY

      Did this stuff originate as appliance connection pipe at first, and stem out from there?  Maybe oriented to the DIY not having to buy a bunch of black pipe fittings to hook up their appliances risking multiple leak points.  Instead go to your big box store and get the handy Csst installation kit so you can do loop to loops around what ever no fittings required.  Then maybe expanded the product to the thought of less fittings in larger scale installations, and being safer because of fewer joints thus fewer possible leak points.

      Looking at it like that it was really an attempt to take the possible mistakes out of a DIY installations which is more of a common place now days.  I think you guys are to hard on yourselves by saying the product dumbs down your trade.  I think it was more about dollars saved than choosing not to spin pipe......For some I should say.

      As for grounding verses bonding.  The way I simply understand it bonding protects the equipment, and infrastructure. Grounding helps protects the human element from electrocution. I could be wrong on this though.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 7, 2011 12:52 AM.
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 7:56 PM
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    CSST was originally developed

    as a means to save time and labor on new construction piping systems and has very clear procedures for installation. I personally have seen it used very effectively for that purpose. One outfit that I was working with as an observer for the American Gas Association (AGA) was installing an average of three new houses a day versus black pipe installations taking a full day per house.

    CSST then evolved into a way to make repairs for example in a three decker with a gas leak on the pipe running up through the interior wall getting black pipe into those spaces to replace the leaking pipe was next to impossible. CSST allowed for fairly simple snaking of the replacement through those same partitions.

    It has also been very effectively used for gas log inserts into fireplaces by being able to drill a hole through the heart and run CSST for those connections.

    The fact that you have to factory certified to install this in many states says it is not for hackers of DIYers.

    All things require some skill and I do not ever see black pipe disappearing

    There is no comparison here to Plexvent and Ultravent, those were doomed from day one. I actually ran extensive testing at our lab at the gas company on both of them and we would not allow them to be used on a run beyond 8 feet and that with support every two feet. Eventually we found real problems with some installations, Eventually the test case in my lab began to sag and eventually fell apart.

    Might I add those who post here should seriously look at the use of PVC and CPVC for venting. In both the case of Plexvent and Ultravent our Canadian friends were the first to outlaw the stuff. In many areas in Canada it can't be used and only ULC-S636 is allowed. In a lot of cases manufacturers are going to PPS (polypropylene). 
  • TonyS TonyS @ 9:35 PM
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    Tim

    Settling out of court for millions without accepting liability. Crap tubing, Crap companies. Just another bunch of liars and thieves.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2uI_GYXWyU&feature=related. By the way, while searching through a multitude of these videos and articles on csst I couldn't seem to find a single incident with failed PVC.
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 10:07 PM
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    Okay Tony S you are probably right

    as I find you are typically always right. As for the PVC/CPVC come see me in Rhode Island I can show you several failed units. Also if you are interested I have written several articles on the subject. Viessmann responded to one of my articles with a rather interesting couple of pages of comments. Hang in there as sooner or later it will be outlawed.

    By the way PVC and CPVC have never been tested or approved for venting. Talk to the Charlotte Pipe people and ask to see the test results, there are none. Even though the pipe is supposed to be inert, it will under high temps breakdown and release chloride gases which can affect metal surfaces inside the combustion chamber.

    This is an excerpt from a recent John Siegenthaler (Siggy) article, do you know who he is?


    I quote

     
    “The use of PVC venting for mod/con boilers seems to be at a crossroads. While PVC remains acceptable to some boiler manufacturers, other manufacturers have specifically banned it from use with their products. The issues in question include long-term integrity of the pipe and its joining methods at higher-than­ expected flue gas temperatures, leaching of potentially corrosive chlorides from the pipe, and the lack of specific approvals from some PVC pipe manufacturers regarding use of their pipe for venting heat sources.
     
    I think it's inevitable that AL29-4C stainless steel and polypropylene will take over as the preferred venting materials for all condensing heat sources. “
     
    End of quote.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 10:51 PM
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    Tim

    Consider the fact that 98 % of the country is warm air. Do you really believe that all those condensing furnaces are going to be installed with AL294C, dont hold your breath!
     I want to thank you for making me look a little deeper into this csst ordeal. I downloaded the videos on my laptop to show potential customers what we Dont use! I think this will seal up a few jobs.
    I might add before going after the pvc on condensing units, start small and first get it off the non condensing power vent water heaters.
    Im not trying to bust your bubble here Tim I was just trying to bring a little truth here with some videos of whats going on with this product, real people , real fires, real out of court settlements. I also searched for lawsuits and deaths from pvc venting and Im sorry but I just couldnt find any. Do you know of any?? Please post them.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:57 PM
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    Certification..... We don't need no stinkin' certification.....

    I took the "class" from one of the suppliers. Never received my certification. Neither did any of the other company employees that took the training at the same time I did.

    With that said, I and the other employees have purchased CSST of different and varying brands from numerous wholesale suppliers, and not ONCE have I or the other guys ever been asked to show our "Certified Installer" card in order to take possession of the material.

    How many wholesale counter employees have ever ASKED to see a cert card before selling it over the counter?

    Chris, you're a wholesaler. What is your company policy?

    Any other wholesalers care to chime in (anonamously if you feel the need) ?

    Maybe it's a ploy on the manufacturers part to spread the liability...

    I was on a job today, that the CSST was installed within the last year, and was inspected by the AHJ, and didn't have ANY grounding/binding. Who's responsible there? Any AHJ who claims they can't be held liable needs to follow the tragic CO case in Aspen...

    I have a feeling this is going to turn into a debacle that will make Entran 2 seem pale in comparison.

    JMHO

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 10:19 PM
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    Mark it is being enforced

    In Massachusetts and Rhode Island, in fact the certification is being done in Mass I believe at some of the classes for CEU's for licensing. The supply house up the road from me if they do not know you will ask for your card from whichever company product they sell. The next time you come in they will not ask again.

    We had a real donny brook several years back in Mass when a little girl was killed from Carbon Monoxide. Now in every installation manual you look at there is a special page instructing how you go about insuring CO protection and it isi enforced.

    Mass also enforces the required bonding or grounding of CSST. It is really not such a big deal.

    I wish I could find my pictures of roof top equipment that the gas company took of units that were hit by lightening. Say maybe we should take all the equipment of the roof. Not a bad idea here recently we have 75 roofs on flat building collapse under snow-load. All speced for 38 pounds per square foot according to code.

    Say how about we never get flooded here tell that to all the Rhode Islanders who were under water. FEMA made sure all the heating and water heating equipment was removed and new equipment installed. By the way in the same spot were it just got flooded. Seem we never smarten up.
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 10:23 PM
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    Tony S if I might

    add one of those crap companies you refer to which made Plexvent is Plexco the number one producer of plastic gas pipe used for gas mains and gas serices all over North America. If they make a crap product you better hope there pipe is not in the ground in front of your house.

    In fact i find you think everthing is crap, what is your problem?
  • TonyS TonyS @ 11:17 PM
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    What are you saying!

    Are you saying Plexo is number one because they made plexvent? Are you saying that because they made a bad product they are still number one. I dont know where your going with this Tim.  You better get some sleep Tim, you defended the csst people admirably, Im sure your checks will continue to come in.
  • Dan Holohan Dan Holohan @ 6:10 AM
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    TonyS

    What checks are you referring to here? 
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  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 10:21 PM
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    At least two, then.

    "I was on a job today, that the CSST was installed within the last year,
    and was inspected by the AHJ, and didn't have ANY grounding/binding.
    Who's responsible there? Any AHJ who claims they can't be held liable
    needs to follow the tragic CO case in Aspen..."

    My piece of yellow CSST has no grounding or bonding at either end. Several inspectors passed the installation. Home inspector, plumbing inspector, electrical, inspector, ... . Almost two years ago. Using the CSST could not have saved the contractor much, as they had black pipe, threading machine, nipples, fittings, etc. right here, and it would have been a straight run had they not installed the boiler about 3 inches too far to the right.

    I am still undecided whether to ground the [censored] stuff at both ends with #4 stranded wire (it is way too far to the system ground), or to replace with black pipe this summer.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:43 PM
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    Bonding gas pipe

      JDB Technically the gas line should be bonded.  Going by Tim's experience things can happen to ANY type of piping for gas.  BUT how many homes have bonded gas piping.


     Gordy
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 8:41 AM
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    how many homes have bonded gas piping

    I do not know. My house had no gas until the gas company installed it in May 2009. It was inspected for leaks by the gas company before they would even put a meter in. When the job was done, 3 different inspectors checked the installation, and passed it. All the piping is plainly visible. So it should be up to code in New Jersey as of that date. Most of it is black pipe, and there is a piece of yellow CSST across my garage at ceiling level (no ceiling, though). None of it is bonded. At the gas meter end, there is no grounding. First of all, except for a short piece of silvery steel pipe that enters the ground, everything in the street and in the ground from the street to the meter is plastic. At the output of the meter is a dielectric union that goes to black pipe. So no grounding or bonding there. Once it is in the garage, black pipe goes up to the ceiling level (no bonding); from there it is CSST across the garage to where the boiler is (no bonding); from there it is black pipe again that comes down part way, shrinks to 3/4 inch , goes through a shut off valve, and shrinks to 1/2 inch to enter the boiler (still no bonding). Inside the boiler, the gas pipe is silver-colored steel. This goes through a short flex piece to the gas regulating valve through a blower into the boiler where the burner is. The burner is grounded because it is inside the aluminum heat exchanger with the water in it (there is also another small ground wire to complete the circuit for the electro-zapper igniter), and the boiler is plumbed into the city water and all that piping is copper; 1/2 inch to begin with, then 3/4 inch out to the street. I do not believe the gas line is ever connected to the water, and some of the ducting of the gas-air mixture may be fiberglass filled plastic (I did not check). So if the gas is grounded anywhere, it is by hit or miss methods that I hope are not code.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 10:49 AM
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    Belt and Suspenders....

    Let us say I decide to be as safe as possible, and replace the CSST with black pipe. Does the code require that my gas pipe be bonded and grounded anyway? Or is it just a good idea? Or is it a Bad idea?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 11:13 AM
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    Bonding Required

    JDB,

    The code requires bonding of all metallic gas lines.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 10:03 AM
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    The code requires bonding of all metallic gas lines.

    OK: so the gas inspector should get demerits at his next salary review? Because, CSST or not, none of the gas pipe is grounded or bonded. Or should the electrical inspector get the demerits? Or both?
  • TonyS TonyS @ 10:55 PM
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    Check out ebay

    Mark, check out ebay. CSST .. all you want. I dont think they even ask for a note from your mom, they just send it right to your door. Every apartment owners dream.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 11:07 AM
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    Proves Nothing

    Tony,
     The fact that someone sells CSST on eBay is a non sequitor that does not prove anything. There is a multitude of things being sold on the Internet that shouldn't be. How about just about every make of mod/con, gas furnace,cond. unit, heat pump, radiant pipe and manifolds, Tekmar controls, Grundfos pumps, refrigerant, gas valves, parts, etc.?

    I,m sure if someone could figure out how to box up 21ft of black iron pipe and ship it UPS, it would be available on eBay too.

    Your comment to Tim about receiving checks from CSST manufacturers is wrong and un-called for. He gave facts and dealt with the issue. You resorted to name calling and innuendo - the last resort of a defeated foe.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • RobbieDo RobbieDo @ 5:54 AM
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    NEC Code

    NEC Bonding Gas Lines
    (B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

    FPN: Bonding all piping and metal air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety.

    This is from the National Electric Code Book. I always follow this rule, the inspector allows looks for it or I show him that it is all bonded. Might sound stupid but these regulations are here for protection. I do ALL of my electrical work per the NEC code, I'm also an Electrician/HVAC tech.
    Rob
    Rob
  • Scott Scott @ 6:23 AM
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    Tony

    Your snide remark about Tim being on "ANYONES" payroll is unfounded and unfair. I have known Tim for years now and he is one of the most honest and moral man you will ever find.
    His knowledge of gas equipment is deeper than most. His comments about csst come from an open mind and testing Not supposition.
    Scott
     
  • TonyS TonyS @ 8:52 AM
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    Tims a big boy

    I think he can have a lively debate without being Patronized,Scott.
    Getting back to this thread, it really doesnt matter what we think about csst. The jury has spoken. Im sure they were given a very detailed account from both sides.
    Read the article....  Omegaflex also argued that a properly bonded CSST system could
    withstand the energy produced from an indirect lightning strike. 
    Omegaflex's failure to EVER TEST TracPipe’s ability to withstand such
    energy, when properly bonded, proved fatal to its defense. ...Now why couldnt they prove that!! Why didnt they do a test before.
    So the way I understand it is...Bond all you want, its not even proven that it works!! How can a company that spent so much on making the pipe that you didnt even need special tools to put it together just let it slip their minds about the bonding test?
  • Dan Holohan Dan Holohan @ 8:59 AM
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    No dice, TonyS

    You wrote that Tim is taking checks. Prove it or apologize. 
    Site Administrator
    dan@heatinghelp.com













    Hug your kids.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 9:05 AM
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    No problem Dan

    If I am wrong, and Tim doesn't receive any money from any vested party whether indirectly or directly. I was wrong and I am sorry.
  • Gordan Gordan @ 9:11 AM
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    Weak.

    Where I come from, the burden of proof is on the accuser.
  • Dan Holohan Dan Holohan @ 9:18 AM
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    TonyS

    If you look at the top of the Wall, you'll note that one of the rules is that people be nice. I've had a bellyful of nasty people come here in the 15 years that I've had this site up and I've gotten rid of each of them. The site is far better without them.

    I've found many of your comments to others to be nasty, sarcastic, and downright cruel. I'm not alone in this, as you can see by the comments of your peers.  This will be my last warning to you. Treat people with the respect they deserve as human beings and fellow tradespeople. Be nice or I'll close your account without comment and no one will ever hear from you again on this site.

    That's my last word on this subject.
    Site Administrator
    dan@heatinghelp.com













    Hug your kids.
  • Gordan Gordan @ 9:08 AM
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    As an observer...

    There's a difference between a lively debate and a libely debate. It is one thing to accuse someone of being wrong, and quite another to accuse them of knowingly misrepresenting. It's not just Tim's reputation at stake, Tony - yours is, too. Prospective customers read these forums. Having seen some people's posts, for what it's worth - and it may not be much - I personally wouldn't consider hiring them, because they come off as abrasive and self-righteous and I would fear that any miscommunication or disagreement would result in a blow-up.
  • jp jp @ 10:18 AM
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    Juries are experts

    thats why this country is in trouble, the wrong people deciding whats safe or not.  look at the simple extention cord that come with an encycolpedia of safety information.

    tim spoke clarity about the subject.    considering the voltage and current within a lighting strike, it goes where it dam well pleases, up down in out, can careless about a grounding rod as we would like to think....... grounding helps, but its not fool proof.

    bravo tim!
  • Chris Chris @ 10:27 AM
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    The Suit

    If I were on the jury I would have voted the same way. In essence they admited they never tested what would happen in reagrds to a lighting strike. The installation manuals also at the time never gave a procedure for properly bonding the product as they do now. Obviously this was an issue they were aware of prior to this suit and the class action suit or they would have never developed counter strike.

    Its not about the product itself it's about Omega Flex's lack of testing to make sure the product wouldn't kill someone or destroy ones property in my opinion.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:15 AM
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    I feel the manufacturers pain...

    How WOULD you test for a near lightning strike?

    Build a HUGE Tesla coil near the house, and have it discharge static electricity into the air near the building with the properly grounded/bonded tubing in place?

    I don't think ANYONE can guarantee piping stability of ANY type of pipe with lighting. It is too unpredictable. My grandfather and grand mother both had near death experiences with lightning.

    My grandfather was sitting in his house, at a kitchen table, with a friend sitting across from him, when lightning hit a power line outside of his home. A ball of lightning the size of a basket ball bounced off the direct hit, bouncing twice on the ground, came through the picture window, went between him and his friend, and blew up the heating element on his electric stove. Cracked the window, but did not break it.

    My grand mother had her hair up in metallic curlers (small Coors Banquet beer cans) when a thunderstorm came up quickly. Her horses were panicking, so she ran outside to try and calm them down. Lightning hit the cupola of the barn and shot everywhere around her. She did not take a direct hit, but it set a permanent curl in her hair that took a year to grow out. She said there were little balls of lightning EVERYWHERE. They left little black holes in the ground.

    I'd LOVE to see a set of ANSI standards of how to go about testing the tubing for near lightning hits.

    As for the jury, they did what they were instructed to do. Review the evidence and issue a judgement. Both sides had the opportunity to vette the jury and expel anyone they want. It avoids having anyone with too much expertise in the jury box that could influence the decisions made by the jury. It's about as fair a process as you can get.

    Will be interesting to see what the net outcome of the juries decision will be.


    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Chris Chris @ 11:22 AM
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    Testing

    Could we use an electric chair? :) How did they test for "Counter Strike"?
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • NH03865 NH03865 @ 11:41 AM
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    Testing is easy

    Lightning testing is already well defined by National and international standards.
    Here is one place that performs direct and indirect testing

    http://www.lightningtech.com/f_sets/laboratory.html
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 12:03 PM
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    Wow....

    Whoda thunk.

    I'm impressed. Like to see what their electricity bill is :-)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • NH03865 NH03865 @ 1:10 PM
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    Electric Bill

    I don't know what their electric bill is, but they can afford it.  I work at a test lab that performs product safety testing and EMI testing (military and commercial)  We have had military customers request that we coordinate the lightning testing.  I have seen the quotes for those jobs.  Let's just say, I could have put my son through college for just lightning testing one of those products.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 6:02 PM
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    Lightning testing on aircraft

    Direct and indirect hits have to be tested thoroughly. Not only can they not blow holes in fuel lines but sensitive electronic equipment must continue to operate.
    There is only one reason why they dont test it.. because it cant pass.
    Could you imagine next time your flying through a thunderstorm and the pilot comes back and tells you that this model aircraft hasn't been tested for lightning strikes but we feel it should work. This company knows this, im sure they talk about this with their lawyers everyday. They are just putting corporate profits before human safety.
  • SpeyFitter SpeyFitter @ 11:30 AM
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    Heard a rumour

    I heard a rumour somewhere, that at some big box stores in the USA in certain areas, they were selling CSST and something along the lines of there was a brochure they had beside it and if you read the brochure and signed your name at the back, you were now a certified CSST installer and could buy it.  This to me, if it's true, and I suspect there is some truth to it, is the equivilence of this stuff starting to look like PEX for water lines for DIYers. Not saying Pex is a bad product either, I think it's a great product, but because of its ease of installation it is looked at as a DIYer product for many.
    Class 'A' Gas Fitter - Certified Hydronic Systems Designer - Journeyman Plumber
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 9:31 AM
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    Not a rumor any more

    my partner went to Lowes and there it was. I wonder where they're getting it- maybe from a distributor? We've seen that before where Home Depot was displaying Slant/Fin boilers- they were getting them not from the factory, but from a distributor who didn't care who they sold to.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • Tom Blackwell Tom Blackwell @ 2:46 PM
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    Damage

    While not specifically about CSST, I have personally seen many condensing units that had holes burned in the tubing inside the sheet metal casing with no external damage. Also have a picture of lightning hitting a transmission line tower where the magnetic forces caused the lightning to bow out away from the tower leg and go to ground. There is still a lot that is not known about this phenomenum, and stray currents caused by a near lightning strike do a lot of damage.  Anything subject to puncture from an arc would be at risk.  It will be interesting to see where this pans out.  Stay tuned...
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 6:59 PM
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    Boy I go to work

    and teach a class all day and come back and we are still at it concerning the CSST issue.

    By the way i accept the apology From you Tony, Thank you.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:49 PM
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    I don't think its going to go away Tim...

    I have a feeling its going to snowball on us and end up being as much a debacle as Entran 2, Plexvent, Polysuitelene and (insert company name here) potable water dezincifacation fittings.

    This is one of the major reasons that we can't get some of the innovative European products over on this side of the pond. "Too many lawyers".

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 8:12 AM
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    No problem Tim

    I , in no way intended to be nasty or cruel or in anyway consider myself to be your
    "defeated foe". I think my attitude reflects years of boxing, whereas I get in the ring and try to break your face or I get my brains rattled and then we go get something to eat. Some guys are more sensitive, I don't think you are..I was feeling some pretty good sarcasm coming from you lol. I respect you and read and learn many things from your post.
    Tony
  • Big Will Big Will @ 10:37 PM
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    I wonder

    How far it will go. I work in San Fransisco and the four counties north of it. we see lightning very seldom. Years will go by between ground strikes. I cannot remember a time when we had a fire as a result of lightning. That said insurance companies have paranoid down to an art. San Fransisco has never allowed it. However it would not surprise me if it becomes a no go as a result of this. 
  • Ex Maine Doug Ex Maine Doug @ 3:24 PM
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    I lived in central Florida for many years

    and saw a lot of lightning strikes and results of lightning strikes.  We had almost 30 locations in the state and a lot of electronic gear.  "Protected", and I use the term loosely, or not, lightning went where it wanted to go.
    Hit my neighbor's house next door. Went in at the peak of a gable and travelled thru that end of the house. Zapped all the appliances and the house caught fire. Watched lightning take out a sub-station that had the usual pointy rods up in the air. Spectactular and frightening display. Turns out that Florida is one of the hot spots for lightning so we had many shows.
    In Canada lightning hit a transformer on the power pole providing the 220vac to my parents house. I was sitting near a window reading and darned near peed my pants. The blast was so loud it made my ears ring and the flash could have given you a tan.  Nothing damaged in the house but the transformer was mostly gone and the pole was cooked.
    I wonder how effective is bonding where it creates ground loops. In any case I do not want to be close enough to see the event.
     
  • EddieG EddieG @ 9:29 PM
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    We...

    We have a cool little thing over at a Navy base close to me. It is two towers with wires between them. They take jets and pull them under the cables and simulate lightning strikes. Maybe I'll see if they will let we set a roll of CSST under there!!!!LOL
  • francoathie francoathie @ 6:21 PM
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    return to work

    I have recently returned to work after having had a work related injury. I received CSST benefits for over a year. I am able to continue working at my job, with a few restrictions. I would like to know if my employer can terminate my employment for any reason, at any time.
    Thank you in advance for any information.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 8:01 PM
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    Alphabet Soupe tastes bad.

    I will assume you are not joking.

    In the context of this web site, CSST stands for Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing used for gas piping in some areas. It may be illegal in others. Its use seems to be very controversial.

    In Provence of Quebec in Canada, it stands for Commission de la Santé et de la Sécurité du Travail du Québec (French: Occupational Health and Safety Commission, Quebec, Canada). There might be someone here that knows about the law establishing the commission and its policies. But surely you could find a more appropriate venue to discuss it.
  • Rod Rod @ 8:01 PM
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    CSST in Quebec, Canada

    Hi- I'm not sure but I think you are looking for information from CSST (La Commision de la Sante et de la Securite du Travail du Quebec)  You can probably get your question answered at their website at this link :   http://www.csst.qc.ca/index.htm
    The "CSST" discussed on this website is a type of piping for natural gas.
    Bonne Chance!
    - Rod
  • N/A @ 9:07 PM

    POINT TO PONDER

    How many out there that install csst are a licensed electrician. I don't claim to know every thing but most inspectors require the gas piping be bonded all the way back to the electrical meter. This varies from state to state and from mfg to mfg.So what is your liability if you o into the electrical meter base to bond your piping and there is a problem down the road. Just wondering I have a state commericial hvac and electrical license.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:03 AM
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    I don't think it matters David...

    I am sure the AHJ would prefer that the person doing the bonding be a properly licensed electrician, but this is one area of grey that has yet to be decided. Regardless of WHO does it, the tubing MUST be properly grounded/bonded. If it is not, and there is a lightning strike, the homeowners insurance company will claim that the installation is defective, and will try and deny any fire coverage. They will also point the finger of blame at anyone and everyone who ever had knowledge of the installation and or had anything to do with the installation.

    I recently became involved in a case that had a significant amount of CSST installed in a brand new 12,000 sq ft home. There was an 1-1/2" main CSST coming into the home, and 12 to 14 branches going from a manifold throughout the home. When I first started CONSULTING on the boilers in this home, I noted that the CSST was not bonded and suggested they do so. (Thanks Chris for brining it to my attention) They hired a friend of mine in the area who does service plumbing, and he bonded the main line coming in per the manufacturers instructions. When I returned for subsequent consultation, I noted that the grounding met the manufacturers minimum, and said that due to the fact that some of the appliances (gas log fire places with millivolt pilot generators) didn't have an earth ground, that they should hire an electrician who was working in the home daisy chain the ground from the main to the nuts on the individual branches in an attempt to provide "omni potential grounding" per the manufacturer of the tube.

    Long story short, there was a lightning strike within 6/10ths of a mile of the home, and the fire department was only 5 minutes away, and by the time they got there, the home was FULLY involved. They did a quick search/sweep inside, and fortunately, no humans were home. I happened to be watching TV at the time, and saw an aerial view from the news stations helicopter. I recognized the home immediately. There is no worse of a feeling knowing the occupants of a home, and seeing it on fire, and not knowing for sure if they got out safely...

    The Fire department said they had never seen this hot a fire in their existence. They brought in 5 other fire companies to put it out, and all they could do was standby and watch the house collapse into the basement...

    The bottom line appears to be, regardless of what the manufacturers are claiming, this stuff is deadly. We discovered numerous holes in the CSST where it came near and crossed metal support beams. 1/4" holes burned through the walls of the tubing. With 2 PSI propane on the system, it fueled the fire to the point that all brass was vaporized (bonding clamps no where to be found) and caused all copper to become embrittled.

    I have to be careful what I can say because the case is still ongoing, but the best advice I can give to anyone considering using this stuff is to tell them to do due diligence and research problems associated with the product before making a decision to use it.

    I was recently cleared by the homeowners insurance company, but suspect I will hear from the manufacturers attorneys soon. The moral of the story appears to be, that even when you DO do the RIGHT thing, it WILL come back to bite you in the butt. Myself, my friend the service plumber, the electrician, the heating contractor were all named as possible subrogates (sharing in the costs of repair) because of our involvement. Had I NOT made the suggestions that I did, the homeowner probably would NOT have had any fire coverage...

    No good deed goes unpunished.

    FWIW, there is over 5,000,000 linear feet of this stuff floating around out there, most of it improperly or not even bonded/grounded. If you have some out there that is NOT grounded, it would probably be a good idea to get out there and ground it, even though it does not appear to make any difference. If you DON'T properly ground it, and there is an issue, your insurance policy most probably WILL have to share in the costs of repair, if not cover everything.

    In the eyes of the jury, doing the right thing will have more sway in getting you cleared of any wrong doings.

    As my friend said, it makes you think twice about doing the right thing... And this guys is about as ethical as they come.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • clammy clammy @ 12:02 PM
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    lately lurking but could not help posting

    all i know is i have seen 2 jobs and took a look at another that all suffered pin holes from lighting strikes and none where direct to the home all where at least 500 to 1000 ft away .My feeling is this stuff is a skill less home owner product .I clearly remenber going to a train semair back in the late 80.s and i basicially seemed to be geared towards LP installes being there exepted you to run higher pressure and have remote regulators which to myself did not seem to save any coin .I myself have never installed it under my own name but have tossed a few miles of it in as a sub and as i thought before and still think it is garbage and as tradeless as some  one running pex.Yeah yeah yeah all produts have there place and i do use pex but as time goes on i seem to be switching back to ways of old and using more copper( for portable water got my reasons ) and steel but as for gas piping i won't use csst it is a skilless product that any one can install including miguel and carlos at least in my area and as for selling only to those that are certified that is a bunch of horse $hit they will sell to anyone same goes for refregerant certs ,i know just picked up some mitizubushi mini splits from a supply house that i am not a regular at but i pay my bills and i  aked if they wanted by cert # they stated not needed all a chase for the glorious non existing non real money the true root of all evils but this just my view being i do not live surrounded by a large home or a million toys to fill the shallowness of my personality .CSST is just another tool to allow the skill less the ablity to make money to feed the excess which most live under .Just my feelings  fire away bash away if you like just being the clam and firing from the most honest spot my gut .Peace and good luck clammy
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 1:53 AM
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    Clammy as usual

    you put it plain and true. I was told I needed to get re-certified to install CSST. It is the code in my fair state. I never bothered as I do not install it. I sell skilled labor. Installing CSST is not in my best interest as killing future work could be literal with this type of product. I am also such a large amount of my boilers are steam boilers as I have much less in the way of P.V.C. venting out there on jobs. I still have some and I hope it holds up well. But hope is not a way to run a business like ours where peoples lives are truly at stake if what we do is not safe.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
  • clammy clammy @ 7:27 AM
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    no recert as i see

    Thanks for your honesty charlie ,i have yet to see any re certifaction classes at my local supply house and i doubt that they would enforce it any way .As for bonding or grounding  i have yet to see any on any CSST including a large commerical building which i do some service in ,And as i goes those counter strike plate and such that are required to be used are yet to be seem by myself on any jobs where Csst was installed and inspected plus the guys who use that stuff thruly believe that they should not have to spend the extra money on that stuff it really cuts into the profit .Aside form electrical inspections and plumbing waste and vent the inspection in my area seems to be way much more about collecting a fee then really looking at the quality of work ,they just make sure that what should be there is there and thats about it .As for bonding or grounding of gas servies while i have yet to see that at all on any jobs that i have been on and have never had a inspector say boo or question where it was located ,maybe i got lucky but i don,t think so i usually never do.I remenber a product many many years ago which was for refregeration and slightly simalar to CSST but the inside was plastic with a corragrated  outer sleave and a another sealtight like plastic shell ,alot of it delveloped leaks and the great product that it was went the way of the dodo.I still run into it here and there and usually the unit is short of refregerant due to suction line leaks ,we just replace it .I believe that in years to come there will be more issues with csst .I personally have question the brains at a few supply house about the grounding issues and they kinda blew it off i guess it is not there promblem they just sell the crap .I would say the worst thing i see is guys that are to lazy to cut and thread some steel pipe when they do a boiler and run a 2 or 3 ft piece of that crap from the existing gas shut off to the new gas valve of course no drip,no bonding ,no union  and get a shiney inspection sticker on the new boiler ,gotta love that yeahhh.Really looks like a tuxedo with converse sneakers at a wedding really sweet .Just shooting right from the holster peace and good luck clammy
  • Chris Chris @ 2:32 PM
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    Re-Certification Omega-Flex Trac Pipe

    Considering that in Sept Omega Flex is no longer going to make Trac-Pipe and only make Counter-Strike available thru distribution channels there should be a new certification requirement by them.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Davebert Davebert @ 9:09 AM
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    Lightning strike to Dryer CSST line

    This just happened to us on Saturday evening. Luckily we were home and got the fire out quickly. Turned off the gas line. The hole that was punctured in this tube was large. If we hadn't been home..... This stuff needs to be taken out of homes. It is much too dangerous.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 10:31 AM
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    Religious experiences:

    If you found a Holy experience in a connection to your gas dryer, you might want to consider a lightning suppression system.
    I had a new house I built that I lived in for 2 months. It was hit twice in 6 weeks. You can't believe the damage. I didn't have any gas lines. But I DID have a 2" Galvanized well pipe for my shallow well water pump. I had run a 1/2" copper water line from a sill cock beside the panel back to the pump. I grounded/bonded the panel etc to the 1/2" copper, back to the pump, and jumper from the copper to the well. Even though it was a direct metal connection through the pump. The first strike took out a corner of a chimney and came through the roof. Blew up the control for my jetted tub. The second strike did similar damage inside and blew up the tub control. I had a lightning suppression system installed and was never hit again. Although every house around me was hit often. You have to give lightning a place to go to where it wants to go. You can't live without it if you live on this earth. It creates Nitrogen, If you don't use Nitrogen in your daily functions, you aren't of this earth. Our atmosphere is 80% nitrogen.
    Check out the PBS Nova recent program on Lightning and these things called "Sprites" that come out of clouds ABOVE lightning storms and travel UP to the Ionosphere. They are pink in color and look like an exploding firework.
    Don't futz with lightning. It will kill you. I live in South Florida now. The Lightning Capitol of the World.
    Read this article. Read it first. The video is related but not about Sprites. If you're in an unprotected building and there's a lightning storm, go sit in your truck.

    http://news.discovery.com/earth/weather-extreme-events/red-sprites-lightning-130822.htm
    This post was edited by an admin on July 8, 2014 10:52 AM.
  • jumper jumper @ 5:12 PM
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    icesailor beat me to the punch

    Why not lightning rods?
  • Zman Zman @ 10:55 PM
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    Bonding

    Davebert,
    Was the line bonded?
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:09 PM
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    Solution to the problem...

    I have a solution to this problem. As stated WAY up in this thread, there is a LOT of this stuff in homes throughout the world, and it is just not real to think we can deconstruct peoples homes to repipe in rigid pipe. I know for a fact that the people who make this stuff also frequent this site and read these threads, so I HOPE that they view my recommendation as an inexpensive solution to a potentially ex$pen$ive problem.

    There exists on the market, a device known as a "Near strike lightning detector". It is adjustable and can be set to detect strikes within 1 mile of its location. They are used on golf courses to warn golfers of pending lightning dangers.

    There also exists normally closed solenoids rated for use with gaseous fuels. They are used in conjunction with LP detectors here in certain parts of Colorado, and shut down the fuel distribution systems outside of the building served if LP is detected.

    If these two units are combined (lightning detector and solenoid) and a near strike is detected, the fuel valve is closed when a near strike is detected, annunciating a BEEP BEEP audible signal inside the affected dwelling, requiring the consumer to call their plumber to retest the vessel integrity of the CSST system, and if clear, reset the system to allow fuel to flow again.

    Seems a lot cheaper to me than possibly having your product banned by the NFPA and being forced to recall ALL of your material from the field.

    i have documented the date of the idea of conception of this product, but I never pursued it any further.

    Remember me and my family in your will…

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 9:52 PM
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    Great idea Mark

    But who pays for the plumber/fitter everytime there is a thunderstorm, and a whole subdivision of houses impregnated with the csst pipe gets locked out. I know its deffinetly better than loss of property or life though. But how many out of pocket lock outs is going to make a homeowner disconnect the saftey feature unaware of the risk, or just willing to take the risk? Or would this be a supplier feature with a tampering is unlawful, and imposes fine or imprisonment tag.
    This post was edited by an admin on July 9, 2014 9:54 PM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 12:18 AM
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    I hear you Gordy...

    And I hate to use the old saw of you can't fix stupid. We can only do so much in our efforts to protect people from potential life threatening systems. Can't tell you how many combustion air vents I've come across that were completely blocked off…

    I believe that this lightning technology could be incorporated with a pressure sensor, and if the gas pressure drops after the strike has been indicated, then the system locks out. If pressure is stable, then it could automatically reset itself.

    And you are right. Given enough nuisance calls, people will defeat ANY system of protection…

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 11:44 PM
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    Draw your own conclusions

    http://www.today.com/video/today/54707873#54707873
    This post was edited by an admin on July 9, 2014 11:50 PM.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 11:52 AM
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    Conclusions:

    My jaded conclusion is that far too many fire personnel are far too paranoid to be living on earth. If left to them, we would all be living in tents with a fire substation on every block in case of emergency.
    There have been "bonding/Neutral" requirements in place for years. They have had lightning suppression systems in place for years. Most electricians and gas installers are clueless about the bonding requirements of ANY kind of gas piping. They are all wound up about some strike and some holes in some pipe? Was that in the same house? Did anyone notice that there was still enough energy in the strike to completely blow up the gas meter on the side of the house? Because the lightning came in through the metal faux chimney? Or did it come out of the ground and go through the meter to get to the chimney to go back to the cloud? Maybe it goes both ways and continues through a "Sprite" and heads off into the Ionosphere. Who knows today? Tomorrow it might change.
    What the fluck does it matter how well you bond/ground something when the gas mains in the street are all Poly and so are the main to house connections. Then, no matter what you have, a well or municipal water, you have PE pipe as a service. Now, you have a perfectly isolated potential ground conductor source. Just what do you think will happen? Do away with metal services, do away with more bonding. Another really good idea. A 10' ground rod beside the electric meter socket to bond to? Now, they require another one in front of an electrical panel. How many houses in the USA don't have that? That NEC code change should have been retroactive and mandatory. Like seat belts in a car. .
    They require every washing machine to be bonded to a cold water pipe. Every gas appliance should be bonded to a gas pipe and part of the house bonding system. Ever go into a crawl space and see an old piece of galvanized pipe with a ground clamp and the service cold water ground waving in the air? Because the service was switched to plastic? Where's the service ground?
    The PAU (Paranoid Amongst Us) have finally succeeded in forcing us to install
    fire sprinklers in private homes. You can use PEX. On a well that is delivering 4 GPM? 240 Gallons per Hour? That should make you feel really safe after being stuck for that Faux Mess.

    If anyone cares. go look at a lightning suppression system done properly in a private residence by a really quality installer. They even ground the garage door tracks. Surge suppressors in electrical panels.
    Why doesn't Lying Lauer or his NBC buddy "Dancing Dave" Gregory do a piece on all the homes in the USA that aren't properly grounded and bonded. That houses in Texas and other places are like putting a 1,000' ungrounded metal tower on the roof and asking lightning to come be grounded through it.

    In Texas, you're far more likely to be killed by an unsecured gun in a home than being hit by lightning, with CSST in it, being hit by lightning, and dying in a fire.
    Folks, lets get our priorities straight. CSST might have some slight problems. There's a bigger problems with improperly bonded buildings.
    There's a terrible lightning storm going on at this time as I sit here writing this rant. . How many lightning strikes hit the earth every second? Ever see a fire station without lightning suppression rods on it? What do they know that they aren't telling us?
    Is it CSST? Or is it Ben Ghazi?
    This post was edited by an admin on July 10, 2014 11:58 AM.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 12:30 AM
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    And here I thought

    unsecured guns were inanimate objects! lol
  • icesailor icesailor @ 2:30 AM
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    Guns:

    But the Corporations that make them are "persons" and have the same rights as you and I.
    I'm waiting to see a Corporation tried, convicted and given the Death Penalty.
    Lethal Injection.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 4:29 PM
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    Okay

    we covered the object....we covered the manufacturer... can we put just a little blame, maybe...on the person who squeezes the trigger. LOL
  • icesailor icesailor @ 12:07 AM
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    Deathh comparisons:

    Maybe I should have said that more people are killed in Texas after 10:00 PM at night by drunk drivers than are killed by lightning or Carbon Monoxide.
    Its just what went through me in the moment. Texas is the place where a wealthy youth was DUI and hit and killed 4 people. He was found guilty in court but he got no jail time. He suffered from Afluenza. He grew up so wealthy that he would have had a hard time in jail.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 7:16 AM
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    The mans son was burned to death

    I dont think all the statistics in the world are going to change the fact that I dont want to be part of that.
    I will continue to warn my customers about the danger. You do what you want.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 4:03 PM
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    Unintended deaths:

    During one of the storms that hit my house (twice in 6 week), there was a retired State Trooper I knew who lived in Falmouth, MA. He was sleeping in a brass antique bed. The lightning  came through the house and electrocuted him, DEAD.
    Don't sleep in brass beds during a lightning storm.
    The #1 cause of all human death is birth.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 4:06 PM
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    Brass bed

    Bummer.  Have to admit that that possibility never occurred to me.  I'm thinking large ground strap...
  • TonyS TonyS @ 5:15 PM
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    I guess that depends

    on your opinion as to when is birth....but we are not even going to go there!
  • ChrisJ ChrisJ @ 8:50 PM
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    Impressive

    How does a CSST thread turn into a gun discussion?  There are plenty of threads on the net about guns and 2nd amendment rights and arguments.  Do we really need it here too? 

    I ran all black iron pipe in my home for gas and am very glad I did.  Curious though, I bonded the gas piping to the electrical panel when I did the water piping.   Should I leave it grounded or disconnect it?
    I have no CSST, but do have flexible appliance connectors going to the stove and cloths dryer.  The gas meter is outside, but is connected to the street via yellow plastic tubing the gas company ran for me in 2011 as a new install.
    Weil-McLain EG-45 connected to 392sqft of radiation via two 2" risers into a 3" drop header and 2" equalizer. Using Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment to greatly reduce corrosion in the boiler.

    Steam system pictures updated 6/5/14.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/thetube0a3/Boiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCImUxIqv9436MQ#
    This post was edited by an admin on July 11, 2014 8:52 PM.
  • TonyS TonyS @ 11:07 PM
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    Make your gas connectors

    out of FlashShield http://www.gastite.com/products/flashshield.html
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