Heating Help

new TT Solo 60 propane, yellow flame?

I bought & installed a new Triangle Tube Solo propane 60. ALTITUDE 8,500'

Everything is perfect, EXCEPT: yellow flame (too rich) on high fire or low fire.

With water manometer, I have adjusted my propane regulator to 6" with
other appliances on (6.5" off).
This Adjustment makes no difference (5->13") on yellow flame problem.

I have also adjusted the brass gas screw up & down, no help.

Can the blower speed be increased?
If not, I think I need to put in a smaller gas orfice?

Thanks BBP

I don't mean to use scare tactics, but you are working on a bomb...

Especially with LP.

If you do not have the proper test instrumentation and the knowledge and skills required, you should not be working on this appliance. Turn it off and call in a qualified professional.

If you've never experienced a catastrophic fire side explosion from improper air/fuel adjustments, let me tell you that it is NOT AN EXPERIENCE you want to have...

These appliances MUST be adjusted with a combustion analyzer, not the human eye.

Respectfully,

ME

Let me second Mark's warning.

As someone who has a TT Solo 60 running on LP, properly tuned with a combustion analyzer, I can tell you that there was NO visible difference in the color of the flame between the initial firing and the final, optimized combustion. There was a big difference in everything else, including CO levels. About the only thing that view port is good for is verifying that you've got spark.

Get someone with the proper tool and knowledge for the job - and I say this as someone who's a huge fan of doing things yourself (after properly educating yourself, of course.)

more

Mark, did you get my private message?

Gordan, did you get my private message?

TT Tech Support Chris Turnbull & I exchanged Emails prior to my purchase regarding my 8,500' altitude & quiet operation concern.

He said: It was a quiet unit (it is) & that output would be derated (not a problem as I insulated my house really well, R65 ceilings & R35 walls). He never indicated that it would burn rich.

Today, it won't fire-up, gives hard lockout error E02 "failed ignition
after 5 attempts"
I guess that the poor flame quality has effected the spark igniter.

Doesn't it NEED a blue flame to be close to where a combustion analizer can dial it in?

Thanks BBP

I'm at 250 ft elevation, if that.

The only time I encountered the E02 was when, the night before the contractor came out to tune the combustion, I plugged the intake and exhaust with crumpled paper to stop drafts - it was a cold night - and somehow failed to remove all of it in the morning. Suffering from a caffeine deficiency, I guess. The ignitor can be removed very easily; you can clean it with some fine emery cloth and make sure that the gaps are to spec.

I can't really seem to get a good direct view of the flame through that little window. It glows orange, though - and that's well-tuned as well as poorly tuned. Other than reiterating the need for correct tools to dial in the combustion, I'm not sure how else I can help.

more

BTW, I just did a contractor search here & no hits within 250 miles of my 81091 zip (max allowed)

How do I recieve messages here?

Message received...

Try Mountain Shadows Mechanical in Colo. Springs.

It sounds as if you've gotten the device so far out of adjustment that recovery is futile without an analyzer.

The real problem is that if you are on the lean side of the combustion curve, there is a real possibility of having a concusive explosion on the fire side that can destroy your equipment... I've had that experience once, and lived to tell about it, but am EXTREMELY lucky to be here, and I had and was using a combustion analyzer.

This is NOT a conventional appliance that can be adjusted by eye. In fact, even if it were your grandpa's boiler, it STILL should not be adjusted by eye.

ME

I don't work at that altitude, but...

6" of pressure is ridculously low.

Do as suggested and get some help.

yellow flame updates

TT spec is 5-13" W.C.
I bought a new UEI C50 combustion tester.
I modified the gas jet from .120" to .107" diameter. This is a 20% reduction in area.
High fire O2 is now 3.5% (spec is 2.7-4.7%)
High fire CO2 is now 11.4% (spec is 10.7-12.0%)
So it is right in the middle on both.
Flame is still YELLOW, no blue seen?
BBP

CO?

What's your CO?

Give us ALL of the numbers Bill...

O2 is important, but without all of the other numbers, its just another number.

Need O2, Excess air, Co2, stack temperature, CO, and Air Free CO (if available).

Remember this isn't your pappys burner, and looking at its color really doesn't count.

Even with a conventionally aspirated burner, if you clap your hands anywhere near the burner, the flame will look yellow. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but was (probably is still used) by less than scrupulous people to sell new equipment.

Show us the rest of your numbers.

ME

Follow-up info

CO is not available on this low cost tester.
T-Flue = 111*
Eff = N C101.8
X-Air = 20.1
Loss = 0.9

TT manual says flame should be blue.
A blue flame is much hotter than a yellow.

Thanks BBP

Something doesn't look right...

and unfortunately, we'd need to see the CO factors in order to completely diagnose it. Stack temperature indicates under fire, but the excess air doesn't confirm it.

You could try turning the gas pressure higher, and see what effect that has. LP, in general, doesn't burn nearly as clean as N.G. does, so some yellowing can be expected.

Environmental dust (take your pick) will also cause the burner to burn yellowy. I've seen corn pollen completely plug the flue gas passage ways of numerous boilers.

Try boosting the gas some, and see if the flame cleans up, then retest.

Also, what conditions were you subjecting the boiler took these readings? What what the exiting water temperature? What was the entering air temperature?


ME

Something else doesn't look right.....

You "modified" the gas jet??????

Please elaborate.

Just Checking

 Most of the TT boilers are shipped with NG orifices as they are checked at the factory in NJ on NG.  They are shipped with a LP orifice to be changed on site, I'm just checking that you did that.  Sometimes even the largest things are over looked.  

Well.....

He is obviously reading the I&O manual, so one has to assume... I too find it interesting that he is pulling, filling and drilling orifi. I'm thinking maybe he doesn't understand that this is a negative pressure induction gas valve, and the old methodology use for atmospheric aspirated burners are not applicable.

ME

follow-up info

Hello, had family down over Labor Day, so I was busy with them.

Was having trouble with failing to light off, E02 errors
I drilled jet back to .120" which is correct factory size for LP
Set LP regulator to 11" WC

I MAY NOT have a yellow flame,
With a small mirror over view port I can't really see the flame, possibly a faint clear blue with flickers of yellow that come & go.
I see the burner brightly glowing gold/yellow, which I thought before was a yellow flame.

I had to turn the gas throttle screw as bunch CW, lights off now, usually with a small puff sound.

Combustion test done toward end of DHW call, I believe Boiler was modulating flame, but unsure as T-supply was about 175* (My parameters were set for a max. of 170* ?)
T-return was 160*
front cover was off & air temp was warm in the little boiler room possibly 95* ?

CO2 = 11.5
O2 = 3.4
Tnet = 74*
Tflue = 155*
Eff N C = 98.4% (note: this was over 100% with smaller .107" jet)
X-air = 20.1
Loss = 1.5

Does anything need to be done?

Thanks BBP

anything need to be done?

Yes, call in a professional that is well versed in Prestige boilers and make sure he brings a factory LP orifice and combustion analyzer. You have the throttle screw of the gas valve so out of whack you're out of the stoichiometric ratio. You need to manually set the control to hi and lo fire to properly check at both ends. Also your flue temp should be higher than your water temp but no more than 54 degree's. You will never see 98% efficiency at 170 water temp. In addition is most important to know what your CO is and it should be under 100 ppm. Try to take back the analyzer you just brought and use the refund for a profession such as the one ME recommended. If they can't help you I would also recommend Absolute Comfort in the Colorado Springs area.

Slimpickins response

Of course, the actual Effiency is not that high, I was reporting what the UEI C50 tester display showed.

The tester Flue Temp matches what the TT display shows.

If I have the Throttle screw so far out of whack, why can I set the CO2 & O2 right in the middle of the TT specs?

The only actual help that I have recieved here on heatinghelp.com has come from Mark Eatherton.

Site S/B renamed to "Hire A Professional Here" as that seems to be its self-serving purpose.

BBP

Still need CO numbers

You need to know the CO numbers to know your combustion is set correctly. The CO2 and O2 could line up but your CO could be way off because you're not in the stoichiometric curve. That's why TT puts the CO2, O2, and CO readings in their literature. They also put this in their literature as well:

 The combustion levels should be measured
at high firing rate, refer to page 45
of the PRESTIGE Solo control section
on how to set the firing rate. If the combustion
levels are not within the range
given in Table 2 for the firing rate, shut
the boiler down and contact Triangle
Tube Engineering Department. Failure
to comply with this requirement could
result in severe personal injury, death or
substantial property damage.

Not saying you can't do it yourself without proper training..

CO

Thanks for the advice.

I now have a CO detector on order.

Does CO track with either CO2 or O2 in any way?

If I adjust for minimum CO, will that take me out of spec on CO2 or O2?

I think CO would be important in a crowded city, but I live on 41 Acres in the mountains.

Thanks BBP

Stoichiometric Relationship...

The attached curve shows the approximate relationship for the constituents of flue gasses and the production of CO.

In order for everything to work in unison, all parameters should fall into these categories, but not always. One thing gets out of whack (i.e. flame impingement on a cold surface) and even though everything is set up "ideal" the production of CO will be present.

The key is to get everything back to as near as normal as possible. Although you might not realize it, the production of CO can contribute to the early failure of the equipment, and wasted fuel. With sealed combustion, the possibility of getting CO poisoning are slim to none, but it has and will continue to happen in rare cases. It goes more to proper equipment operation, thereby increasing efficiency, and lessening the possibility of short term equipment failure.

Here is the combustion curve showing the relationship between the different gas elements in flue gas.

ME

E02 again

Thanks for the chart ME

Looks like setting CO2 just to the lean side of maximum is in the right area.

I think that is about where it's at.

Today, it failed to fire-up, gave hard lockout error E02 "failed ignition
after 5 attempts"

If this boiler won't work properly at my altitude then TT tech should have admitted this prior to my purchase. If TT offered a high altitude control module (like the Knight) I would buy it.

For my new house build, I'm liking the Knight Lochinvar WHN085 HIGH ALTITUDE
I requested a quote.

From I&OM

6. High altitude Knight wall mount boilers are equipped to operate from 3,000 to 12,000 feet only with no field adjustments. The boiler will de-rate by 2% for each 1,000 feet above 3,000 feet. High altitude models are manufactured with a different control module for altitude operation, but the operation given in this manual remains the same as the standard boilers. A high altitude label (as shown in FIG. A) is also affixed to the unit.

Thanks, BBP

FYI

When the WHN manual says no field adjustment, it means it came equipped with the correct orifice and high altitude controller. I'm not even sure if its even available in the US at this time. Anyway, you still need  to check and set up combustion on start up with the proper combustion analyzer on the commissioning of the boiler.  The only boiler that can run straight out of the box as far as I know are Viessmann's with the Lambda Pro combustion management system.

The TT Prestige and Lochinvar Knights, both great boilers properly installed of course.

As far as your boiler not firing, I would consider ME and my advice and get a professional that is well versed in TT boilers. Not trying to bust your chops, just trying to help.

testing

To verify where it's at relative to stoich (Hot-rod vernacular)

on DHW high fire (supply = 174* return = 154*)
turned throttle screw CW 1/2 turn (leaner)

CO2 went from 11.4 -> 10.9
O2 went from 3.5 -> 4.3
Exactly matches the graph

X-air jumped up from 20 -> 25.9

Also calculated units BTU/hr to be about 36.5K
It raised 80 gal tank (664#) 26*F in 28.5 min

BBP

CO results

CO was 135 ppm, spec is 100 max.
Turned jet throttle screw 1/4 turn CW (leaner), CO now 86 ppm
CO2 = 11.1
O2 = 4.0
Tnet = 52*
TF = 131*
N C Eff = 98.9
X-Air = 23.6
Loss = 1.2

All are now in spec.

Still getting many E02 hard errors (fails to fire off).

Next, I'm replacing LP regulators, fingers crossed.

Am contemplating wiring up a Dayton time delay relay that I have to the boilers reset switch, so it will get a reset say every 30 minutes & retry.

Getting nervous about heat with Winter coming.

BBP

Same Problem

I had a new TT60 installed and have the same problem.  We have been trying to resolve it for over a month now.  Combustion is perfect and the unit runs great when it starts.  The latest thing that the factory found is that the control board installed is an old board that they had some problems with.  The new control boards should have a green dot sticker on the board.  We will be installing the new board Thursday.  Will let you know next week how things went.

Control board

THANK YOU, NH03865, very interesting info. Please let me know your results.

My Honeywell MCBA54201DV10 Rev 5, has no green dot

My last contact with TT, Tech was tryig to blame my LP, which I don't trust either.

BBP

always

It's alway's easy to blame the propane. I hear that 50 times a year. Did you get your flow and lock up done with a water manometer and is the line sized properly?

control board

I contacted Chris Turnbull at TT Tech Support.
They are sending out a new control board, sure hope it fixes me up.
They don't offer a high altitude version, another Tech snickered when I said that Knight does.
They knew the symptoms well, little backfires, E02.
I think that were not the only customers with this problem.
BBP

The results

My heating guy replaced the control board Thursday night, now the boiler doesn't start at all.  He brought another new control board Saturday morning. The unit still does not start.
At this point it was time for a sanity check.  Boilers are fairly simple devices and what they do is pretty basic. They make fire to heat water and move that water around.  To make fire you need an ignition source, oxygen and fuel. I said it was time to go back and verify everything we could.  Started with the ignitor, pulled it out, inspected it (everything looked good) tested it (made lots of sparks during ignition cycle). Blower was moving lots of air through the chamber but verified there was no obstruction/restriction in exhaust vent. That covered ignition source and oxygen.  Measured the voltage from the control board to the coil of the gas valve.  Voltage was fine and valve was pulling in. That says that the control board is happy and is trying to put gas into the chamber.  When looking through the window, there is no flame established during the start cycle.
Things that have been previously verified.  Gas pressure started at 8.8" WC, was adjusted to 12.5" WC and is steady during the ignition sequence and operation (when it actually started). Combustion numbers for everything were mid-range according to the manual.
At this point, since there is an ignition source and lots of air, it looks to be a fuel problem.  Next thing is to change out the gas valve (it's about the only possibility left).  Will let you know how it goes

Fortunately for me this boiler is located in a new house that we are building to be our summer/retirement home so if it takes a while to solve the issue, it's not a problem, but it is frustrating.

The results

My heating guy replaced the control board Thursday night, now the boiler doesn't start at all.  He brought another new control board Saturday morning. The unit still does not start.
At this point it was time for a sanity check.  Boilers are fairly simple devices and what they do is pretty basic. They make fire to heat water and move that water around.  To make fire you need an ignition source, oxygen and fuel. I said it was time to go back and verify everything we could.  Started with the ignitor, pulled it out, inspected it (everything looked good) tested it (made lots of sparks during ignition cycle). Blower was moving lots of air through the chamber but verified there was no obstruction/restriction in exhaust vent. That covered ignition source and oxygen.  Measured the voltage from the control board to the coil of the gas valve.  Voltage was fine and valve was pulling in. That says that the control board is happy and is trying to put gas into the chamber.  When looking through the window, there is no flame established during the start cycle.
Things that have been previously verified.  Gas pressure started at 8.8" WC, was adjusted to 12.5" WC and is steady during the ignition sequence and operation (when it actually started). Combustion numbers for everything were mid-range according to the manual.
At this point, since there is an ignition source and lots of air, it looks to be a fuel problem.  Next thing is to change out the gas valve (it's about the only possibility left).  Will let you know how it goes

Fortunately for me this boiler is located in a new house that we are building to be our summer/retirement home so if it takes a while to solve the issue, it's not a problem, but it is frustrating.

Did it work

Did the replacement of the control board work for you?

Flame Signal

?What is your flame signal DCUa reading at low/high fire, When it was working (Check Your Grounds) Good Spark

updates

The new control board with green DOT will not light off, tried 50 times. WTFO

Put original control board back in, & replaced both LP regulators, seems to light off better, usually takes several tries. Set to 11.5" WC

Hasn't failed 5 times in a row yet to give a E02 hard error, but has come close.

I think it has to do with my high altitude & LP.

Am going to use a Time Delay Relay to reset unit every hour or so, as I can't trust unit to work while I'm gone for an extended trip when it's below freezing.

Have started designing my next install using cast Iron 85% Eff boiler.

96% Eff High tek SS modCon sounds great, but it actually needs to WORK!

Appears to be fixed

After fighting the E02 fault for months it appears to finally be fixed. My heating contractor was consulting the factory during the whole process.  At the direction of the factory, he changed the ignitor once, the gas valve twice and the control board twice and it still didn't run.  The factory then sent a technicial who was very familiar with these systems to fix it.  The first visit he took everything apart and checked it and adjusted it so it was actually running so rich it was outside of factory specs.  He said that the combustion numbers in the manual were for laboratory conditions and were sometimes not achievable in the field. But everything would then work fine. I wasn't happy with this explaination and fully believed that the problem wasn't fixed.  30 minutes after the technicial left, I heard the clunk of relays as the boiler errored out with an E02 again. 
After consulting with the factory, the technician returned the next day with the ephinany that it must be the gas valve.  There is an adjustment on the gas valve that is sealed and should not be touched and the seal on this gas valve had been broken.  This was already the 3rd gas valve in the system and I didn't believe that the gas valve was the issue.  He replaced it with the 4th valve and the boiler still didn't work.  He then started further troubleshooting and I asked a question why was the boiler turning on the circulator for heat when there was a call for DHW not heat.  He then found that the control board was operating the wrong circulator at the wrong time and the control board no longer recognized the sensor in the indirect tank.  After troubleshooting all the wiring and finding all the wiring correct he replaced the control board for the 3rd time.  He had the complete repair kit for the Triangle Tube boilers and took the gas valve and control board from that kit.  He has had the kit for several years so the control board was an older revision than the boards that had been previously used.  Everything started to work properly.  The combustion was adjusted to be right in the middle of the specified ranges.  The boiler has been operating for a week now with no problems. 
Cautiously Optimistic

WOW, still having problems

I hope you, your installer & Triangle Tube stay on this until its solved. I've seen several TT's installed in big houses up in Winter Park, (9000') so I'd say right off the bat that high altitude is not your only problem. I'm in auto Repair, and occasionally we get one that just defies logic, and when you have finally found the problem, you still think its a mystery. But you have to stay at it to solve it. I feel for you man. My recent problems with the aqua-stat while not as dangerous as your boiler attempting to blow its self up occasionally, were just as frustrating to solve. eventually identified a cold solder joint.

Hang in there:

Tim

Still E02

Still gets E02 about every 20-30 tries.
This is 5 fails to light off in a row = E02 hard error.
My TT sensor on DHW tank works perfectly.
The replacement control board that they sent me wouldn't fire off once!!!!
Seems they are sending out KRAP control boards + after I had it for a week I got a letter saying that they were going to charge me $510
Don't know yet if they did? I sent the "green dot" KRAP control board back to them.
What Help, NOT!!!!
I wish I had never bought this POS
I think I will pull it all out next spring & put in something that will work.
BBP

Follow-up info

I hope that someone at TT scans this board & will notice this.

I know many prospective buyers do!

Seems that they have some engineering to do.
(BTW, I'm a retired hardware & software engineer)

If they came up with a HIGH ALTITUDE + LP control board, I sure would buy one, rather than go to all the trouble of replacing this unit.

BBP

you get what you pay for

You may well be a retired hardware/software engineer but you're not a trained and qualified Triangle Tube Prestige boiler installer. You took the gamble trying to save money by installing it yourself without training and without proper tools like a combustion analyzer and you've lost the bet. Now you're crying sour grapes and Triangle Tube doesn't owe you anything. It clearly states in the installation manual: Installation and service must be performed by a qualified installer, service agency or the gas supplier.
Bite the bullet and get a qualified service tech and they'll solve the problem. It's not exactly rocket surgery.

Slimpickins, thanks for the heating help

Combustion numbers are posted above.

TT said Solo 60 would work just fine at this altitude before I bought it, IT DON'T

BBP

current status

I put in new control board with green dot, would not fire off even once, I returned it to TT, now using original board that fires off most of the time.
I also get a variable delayed ignition noise.

I engineered & installed a solonoid that automatically pushes the reset button when E02 happens, this way I can leave house for extended time when its cold outside.

Implementation:
When an E02 happens, either the DHW or the CH pump remains on. I use this to pick a relay (one for each pump) the relay N/O points isolate the 2 pumps from each other & provide 120vac to an adjustable Fenwal thermal switch (break on temp rise) I mounted this on the boiler supply pipe & set it to 110*
If the thermal switch is cooler than 110* the 120vac is sent to a 10 minute Time Delay Relay (delay on make) (TDR)
If 10 minutes expire & the boiler is not producing hot water, the 120vac is sent on to a 2 second TDR, this relay passes the 120vac on to a 9vdc mini power supply that energizes the solonoid which pushes the reset button for 2 seconds. A set of N/C points in the 2 sec. TDR opens at 2 sec. & opens the 120vac to the 10 min. TDR which resets its 10 min. cycle. So this will retry every 10 min. if required.
WORKS EVERY TIME!

I have received advice from a different brand factory Tech support guy to open up the igniter gap by 1/16" to about 5/16" & add a better ground wire.

I have adjusted the gas throttle screw from rich to lean ends of spec repeatedly, make no difference on E02. Right now its toward the lean end in order to get CO into spec.
High Fire CO2=11.1, O2=4.0, X-air=23.6, CO=86ppm

Venting is correct, I think, about 20' equivalent of 3" PVC. Both vent & intake go through rim board about 1' below floor which is about 3' below boiler.

What Happens

When you get other error codes in the future? Did you just build a potential launch pad for a deadly problem?

Could this be your Problem?

"Both vent & intake go through rim board about 1' below floor which is about 3' below boiler."

You cannot run the flue pipe downward from the boiler; it must rise upward from the boiler at a minimum of 1/4" per foot. You may be trapping water in the flue or the water vapors may be coming back up into the combustion chamber during the off cycle.

A lot of problems could be avoided if the words at the beginning of the I&O manual were heeded:

"Installation and service must be performed by a qualified installer, service agency or
the gas supplier."

vent

There is no water trapped in my vent, none.

I have read the TT venting supplement & don't see any violation.

It is a power vented boiler.

I searched for info "National Fuel Gas Code NFPA 54" & so far haven't found info?

PS this same venting worked for 10 years with previous boiler.

Venting

  I believe Bob caught something in your details. No where in the installation instructions for venting with any condensing boiler, or power vented water heater that I'm aware of does it show vent termination below the elevation of the exhaust vent of the boiler. TT's installation manual is not as detailed in venting options as other manufactures, but it does not show a scenerio where vent termination is below the boiler.

 Ask the TT Tech you have been talking to about your issues if this is okay to do, I will bet not, and I'm sure that has not crossed his mind as part of the problem since this is not common install practice.

 I mean come on your engineering a device to reset the error code? What was the old boiler using this same venting?

Gordy

 

Old PS60

Max equiv vent distance on 3" was 60'. I see a post above where you stated 30ft is that counting both fresh air and vent? Are you also counting 90's, they are worth 5'? I tend to agree with the others. Venting maybe the culprit...

vent

About 20' equivalent each, yes counting 90*'s as 5'

Condensation in vent runs outside, that is from the 2nd 90* that turns down.

Boiler does an extensive air purge prior to every fire.

Condensate

If the condensate runs outside then the boiler in essence is not condensing, ie capturing the latent heat. Seems like a waste in my opinion.

Fire tube design

gordy Uses the condensate to help clean the HX. I would suggest you get back in touch with tech support, and explain your venting configuration. At least if it is not an issue then you would know.


Gordy

condensate

Chris, condensing in the boiler is suppose to be better from what I read, but nothing can be done about condensing in the vent, just drain it.

WHY is condensing in the vent inside the house not adding heat to the house? I know most of it exits with the exhaust. Phase change from water vapor to liquid is an exothermic process, this must heat up the vent & some of that heat is radiated.

Read M.E.'s posts on condensing in the vent, he has proof that condensing in the vent is WAY more prevalent than boiler companies talk about.

James, come on.

You are nitpicking about condensation in the vent and completely ignoring the elephant in the room, which is venting downward. It is fine to have a problem, and it is fine to ask for help resolving it, and it is even fine to argue/disagree with some of the advice given. What is not fine, in my view, is not practicing intellectual honesty in your disagreement. You have an aversion toward recognizing that you yourself may have created the problem and that's understandable, but having a blind spot will not get you closer to the resolution.

Exhaust gases want to rise due to buoyancy, and the combustion blower has to overcome this added resistance in order to blow them downward. You've got very experienced professionals here telling you that downward venting is a no-no; if that doesn't get you to listen then it should at least get you to do what was suggested earlier: call TT tech support and ask. I even mentioned very early on in this thread that I'd seen issues with lighting off when I had a partial vent blockage. Do you think all of this together might be enough to get you to consider that there might be an issue with your venting, and experiment with getting that out of the equation to see if it fixes things?

exhaust gases

I was thinking about the buoyancy of the exhaust gasses fighting the vent configuration also Gordan.

Gordy

?

Gordon, Nitpicking? you sure didn't take from my comments what I was trying to say.

I have sent this question to Chris Turnbull @ TT Tech support, hopefully he will respond.

I have been googleing this for days.

http://www.hvacwebconnection.com/hvacarticles/ventingtoday1.htm

"It also recognizes that any appliance can present a condensation problem in a cold climate.

High-efficiency condensing appliances have a seasonal efficiency of 90 percent or higher, which reduces vent gas temperatures to a point where the water vapor produced as a product of combustion condenses to liquid water in the appliance or in the vent. These condensing appliances carry a vented appliance category of Category IV. This type of appliance produces much cooler vent gases, resulting in water condensing in the vent. Venting must be accomplished with a fan, because the vent gases are not hot enough to operate the natural draft vent. Water will condense in the vent and will dissolve some of the gases produced during combustion, which are slightly acidic. The vent materials used with these appliances must be able to resist the acidic condensate. For many of these Category IV appliances, plastic vent material is acceptable and preferred for corrosion reasons."

Condensate

Is suppose to drain back to the boiler not out of the vent. How else would the boiler be able to pull out the latent heat? Condenstate also has another job which is to keep the passages clean. You will see a reduction in efficiency over time as build up will have limited condensate to wash itself away.

No nit picking

  Only trying to help you understand. What do you think the purpose of the condensate drain on the boiler is.

  If it were a good idea to slope your exhaust vent away from the boiler then the manufactures would have done it, and eliminated the need for a condensate drain on the boiler.

  A gauge of how well your Mod/Con is performing in low temp operation is how much condensate it is producing. As Chris said it is extracting the latent heat out of the condensate as it is draining over the HX, along with cleaning the said HX.

  The venting configuration you have is skimming the cream off the milk so to speak. The good stuff is running outside, and not getting the heat extracted.

  It could also create a blocked vent  when it gets really cold she may freeze up solid.

 So please do let us know TT's answer to the question. Whether it has anything to do with your issue, and if not is it proper venting practice.

Gordy

How far apart?

What is the real difference in height between the boiler and outside exhaust point?

You said three feet?

Or is it really seven feet?

Just wondering.

pipes

My 3' in above post was from bottom of boiler from memory without measuring.

Top of boiler is about 7' above floor.
Pipes exit/enter through rimboard just under floor, so around 8' below top of boiler.

I get condensate drip out of boiler trap, rate varies depending on level of modulation & return water temp.

Also system is staple-up under subfloor, so it's a medium temperature setup using ODR.

Right now it's 32* outside boiler will run for about 2 hrs. supply=126* return=124*

House has R65 ceilings & R35 walls, tripple windows + storm window.
Only needs about 10 btu/hr/ft2 at 0*

At 0* house cools off about 1* / hr. with boiler off.

High altitude & LP reduce condensate.

So what % difference in efficiency would I get if I went straight out the wall about 18" with the vent from the top of boiler?

This would be a BIG pain as the wall has a brick venieer & I would have to use a scaffold.

Latent Heat from condensate

I admit I may be a little overly zealous on how much latent heat gets extracted from the exhaust gas condensate that gets past the HX. The more exhaust pipe in the structure the more latent heat from that gets transfered internally to the structure.
 The condensate from gases already past the HX drain straight to the the condensate drain. Another path for the latent heat of the condensate to be absorbed inside the structure.  

 With that being said the condensate cleaning the firetube style HX is formed during combustion inside the HX not what flows back from the vent which gets taken directly to the condensate drain.

 Gordans argument of the exhaust gas bouancy from a reversed pitched exhaust vent, in this case more than just reversed pitch seems to play the bigger role in your issue. Condensate draining outside from the boiler out may prove to be problematic in certain situations with cold weather, and is a secondary issue.

 Your boilers efficiency is derated because of altitude, and return temps of the emmiter all though return temps will not be above 130* for most of the heating season.

 Gordy

vent

Gordy, thanks for detailed explanation, best I've seen. Finally some help here on Heatinghelp.com

Gordon, jabbed me for nitpicking. I didn't realize 2 different guys, confused.

"So what % difference in efficiency would I get if I went straight out the wall about 18" with the vent from the top of boiler?"

Any guesses???

Also you are correct that ice will form at end of vent when it's really cold for extended periods. Previous boiler used same pipes through rimboard & I have seen large icicle run 3' clear to ground. Never really restricts vent though.

Finally getting some help? Finally?

Way to be appreciative there. I don't know about the other authors of 50-ish posts to this thread (plus your other threads), but I sure feel motivated to chime in with advice now...

You do know

   That you have to derate the boiler for altitude Correct?  At 8500' You derate 2% for every 1000' above sea level with the TT solo. So in your case 15% off of the rated input  So with the Solo 60 that bumps you down from 60000 Btu input to 51000 Btu input, or 45900 output I hope your heat loss is in that range. Those derating adjustments are made automatically with the solo 60, Still need the combustion testing though.

   Efficiency loss by horizontal venting verses downward could be anybodies guess. Condensing usually picks up a couple of percentage points though. I do not know if the efficiency rating of the solo is counting low supply temp operation, or if that is built in to its advertised efficiency rating. Some boiler manufacturers will advertise an efficiency rating with a note that says something like up to X efficiency in low temp operation, above and beyond the advertised rating.

   Let us know what Tech support has to say please!

Gordy

I kept thinking of the downward vent

So I did a calculation to see how much equivalent feet of PVC pipe the fluid bouyancy equals. As near as I can tell it's about 100ft which I believe puts you out of spec there.

If it were my home, I'd square away the venting first. Remember, this is a combustion device designed to operate within fairly narrow range. Exasperating the problem is the high altitude.

Second, I'd select a good heating contractor to do the service. I install my own gear but have a heating contracor do the service for the simple reason that I want a backup in case it's not convienient for me to deal with a malfunctioning system. Imagine being out of town for a week and the heating goes out and you don't have a go to guy to fix your shiz and keep your house warm and wife happy (with the heat).

The first thing I'd do is hire the selected heating contractor to come and do a sanity check on my system. A second set of eyes never hurt anything. Consider the fee not unlike insurance.

Lastly, creating a homemade device to overide a safety system on a combustion system scares the crap out of me.

Sorry, but I just don't know of any other way to put this: You're compounding volatility with lunacy...

vent

JohnHenry, that's an interesting idea.

Remember though that my problem is firing off, no hot gasses are present.

Once it fires all combustion #'s are in spec.

Gordy, I have repeatedly clocked heat rise in 80 gal. DHW tank. It works out to 36MBH on 1.2 hr. burn bringing tank from 70* up to 150*. This is plenty for my home.

TT tech support Chris Turnbull called me. He agreed with all here that vent pipe should pitch downhill toward boiler. BUT, WILL NOT have any effect on efficiency. Icing is a concern.

BTW, This is NOT in the TT Venting Supplement manual that came with boiler.

TT is well aware that they have a problem. I'm not alone on this.

He had me make some programming changes in the MCBA, this didn't work & I was without heat Tue. night. Wed. he had me change code back & it fired right up.

I'm back where I was waiting for TT to call back. I think they have some engineering to do.

TT venting instructions

 I agree they are a little less explicit than most boiler manufactures in their instructions, But it is just industry practice anyway.

Gordy

James,

By "all combustion #'s are in spec" do you mean the exhaust gas chemical composition? Of course they are, it's lit.

You're running at least twice the allowable equivalent feet of vent piping, how is that not a "must correct before I try anything else"? A poster above stated that he'd seen this problem with a partially blocked vent pipe. To the combustion chamber, the downward flow looks exactly like a partial blockage. There will be some resistance to flow before start up from heat due to the difference in temperature from the boiler room to the outside. Further, before start-up, that temperature difference between the outside and your boiler room is probably causing a back draft in your vent. I would imagine that these units have some sort of sensor to detect a back draft or way to avoid a dangerous condition in the burner assembly. It could very well be shutting itself down because of the back draft.

The error you get simply means it didn't light off before a set number of tries. It doesn't say what caused it not to light off. I'd certainly like to see more diagnostics on these units, like cars have these days. A standardized interface where you can see in real time what the "brain" of the boiler is thinking.

But when you don't have diagnostics that granular, you have to sort of hunt and peck. And when you're hunting and pecking, making sure the environment your unit is running in is in line with the manufacturers specifications is even more important.

You say the previous boiler worked fine with this set up. If that's the case, I'd be pretty sure that it wasn't near as sensitive to it's environment and install set-up as these modern mod/cons are. What was your previous boiler?

I'd venture to guess there's a good chance you're the only person in the world who has this boiler set up with a downdraft exhaust above 4,000 ft elevation.

The engineers who designed this unit designed it for a short, low, low, low resistance updraft exhaust. I've been around combustion systems for 30 years and I've NEVER, EVER, EVER seen an exhaust in an atmospheric combustion process go downward. For many good reasons, it's just not done.

Please, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and tidy up your venting. I know it's going to be a PITA, but I do truly believe it will be well worth it and could very well solve your problem.

#

JohnHenry, your comment:

By "all combustion #'s are in spec" do you mean the exhaust gas chemical composition? Of course they are, it's lit.

You are showing your lack of knowlwdge, therefore I doubt your calculation that there is too much backpressure on vent pipe.

Current combustion analyzer results on High Fire
CO2=11.1, O2=4.0, X-air=23.6, CO=86ppm

Good luck to you.

I just hope you don't have any dependents...

My turn to chime in.

Lets put efficiency by the side, condensate by the side, and installation instructions by the side! You are trying to pull cold dense air up a pipe and push warm moist air down a pipe. That creates resistance to flow for the fan. These are not high static fans. They are designed with some margin for error but not the kind you are putting against it. Lochinvar WHN, Triangle, Weil Mclain, Burnham, Trinity, all would condemn this sort of installation as they just are not built for this application. Sure, there is a chance in hell of making it work but all odds are against you. Improper venting, propane, high altitude. You need to revent the damn thing and at least give the machine a chance. I have installed numerous Lochinvar WHNs  and way more Triangles Prestiges and never run into this kind of problem. There have been minor issues on a mfr problem of control boards etc but this one is not that. You gotta change your vent, Period.

Add on to post

I also will say that you will for sure have a problem with any of the condensing boilers if you decide to change out your boiler, if you dont change your vent. Enough, off to the Rant room. 

Not to mention...

...that the exhaust and the intake have to turn 180 degrees out of the boiler in order to go down, and I'll bet he's got those ells right next to each other, and they're probably short sweep.

What a supprise

http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/posts/10281/MCBA_Announcement_8022011.pdf

But

 You replaced the board with the one with the (green dot) with no success correct?


"updatesThe new control board with green DOT will not light off, tried 50 times. WTFO

Put original control board back in, & replaced both LP regulators, seems to light off better, usually takes several tries. Set to 11.5" WC

Hasn't failed 5 times in a row yet to give a E02 hard error, but has come close.

I think it has to do with my high altitude & LP."

Gordy

What a surprise

As Gordy points out, it's no surprise since it's old news - even to you.

What is not a surprise to me, personally, is that you still seem to be looking for a way to avoid looking into anything that YOU might have done to cause or aggravate this problem. Perhaps I'm judging you too harshly, but are you really better off living with an unreliable heating system than taking the advice of multiple people here and correcting something you might have unknowingly flubbed up? And, if so, what ARE you still doing here? I mean this non-confrontationally, just wondering about your motivation.

Unless, of course, you've gone and done something about your venting, in which case, we'd love to hear about what you did and the results.