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Sizing a room/closet for a Peerless WV-DV-04 (15 Posts)
Sizing a room/closet for a Peerless WV-DV-04Hi folks, just found this forum, which looks AWESOME.
Thanks for offering this resource, Dan.
We're replacing our old boiler, which used to be in a closet that we plan to fully demolish.
The new boiler is likely to be a Peerless WV-DV-04. I'd like to locate the new boiler in a corner of a new basement room that's being constructed, in which it will be direct-vented through a 2x6" side wall.
We heat with water (not steam), and, FYI, we plan to also install an indirect for domestic hot water (which will be located away from this boiler in a different closet.)
I'd like to enclose the boiler in a closet, since the rest of the basement will be a finished room; and would like comments from the community on what they think is possible.
I.e. what's the smallest depth & width that could be workable? If a 5.5 feet closet depth to the (venting) wall was a maximum, then what closet width would be needed for this model? (Would this even be possible?)
Naturally it should accommodate adequate clearance for periodic maintenance and servicing, along with ducting for the sidewall direct vent.
I'm presuming the closet door(s) would open to the front of the boiler.
I've looked at the manuals, but think I need "the pros" to comment on what works in reality when enclosing a boiler, ducts & pipes.
Finally, any additional suggestions on how to best minimize the noise from such a boiler?
Many, many thanks, everyone!
I'm familiar with installing the WBVin tight spots :) But first , are you sure the 4 section isn't too big for the house ? How many sq ft in total ?
We try to get the boiler as close to the back wall to free up precious space and also to be able to reach the fluepipe from the front of the boiler ( if there's little room from the sides ) . From what I remember the direct vent kit brings the flue pretty far into the room , so the boiler might not be able to be pushed back that far . I'd stick to the minimum clearances though. Especially on the left of the boiler where the swing door opens with the burner . I'd also highly recommend the Beckett burner . The Riello is a fine burner too but their post purge control has had issues in the past .
I've only installed one direct vent Peerless . I remember it being extremely quiet . To minimize the noise further I'd insulate the walls in the boiler closet too . I'm not sure if room venting is required with a direct vent boiler ........This post was edited by an admin on July 23, 2011 7:04 PM.
Direct ventIf direct vent is mandatory,I would go with a Peerless Pinnacle Oil. This is designed from the ground up to direct vent with concentric venting,it's not a chimney vented boiler slathered with RTV. It's the quietest oil boiler around and much more efficient than a WBV. Odor is a concern with a DV oil boiler and the Pinnacle is the least objectionable in that regard. My second choice would be a Buderus G125BE,it's designed for positive pressure and the blue flame burner also is less odiferous. It's louder than the Pinnacle but quieter than most oil burners. The pic is a Pinnacle in a closet within a laundry room,the edge of dryer is visible in the bottom left. The boiler is quieter than the dryer
ClearanceThe Pinnacle also is zero clearance venting,all others require some serious clearance to combustibles
The WB-DV is zero clearance alsoThe flue adapter comes in a ways but the flexible fluepipe has no clearance restriction . Unless you're talking about outside clearances ?
Straight up comparison of running a properly sized WBV to a Pinnacle or triple pass ............ With control strategy being basically the same I just don't see any of these choices being a clear leader in fuel savings . I've had my WBV3 on full outdoor reset for a few years now and can't imagine saving more oil than I'm burning now . But I could be wrong . What figure would you put up there Bob ? Pinnacle compared to WBV .
What's the Heat LossRon what is the room by room, zone by zone heat loss? What are the emmitters in each room? Length, type, size etct? Where can I start my curve? Answer those then maybe we can compare. Also how are you zoning?"The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
OKI'll give it a go .
Overall heatloss is in the 40 to 50,000 btu range . 1500 sq ft house , 0 degree design day . Should retry that at 15 or 20 degrees but it don't matter . They don't make an oil boiler that small . Can't give you a breakdown of room to room . Used the Slant Fin program years ago and forgot the numbers .
Approx. 70 feet of baseboard heat on the 1st floor , with a Buderus panel rad in the living room ( monoflow teed into the baseboard loop ) , separate radiant ceiling zone for the bathroom and approx. 30 feet of baseboard heat for the 2nd floor . 20 gal. Superstor indirect , Honeywell outdoor reset control . 4 circs run the show ( for now ) .
Burned about 650 gallons of oil this season ( Long Island ) .
Gave you all I got . Now can you tell me what the Pinnacle or triple pass will save me if I upgrade ?This post was edited by an admin on July 24, 2011 9:52 PM.
You may wish to verify what I am about to say...... because I am not a heating professional heating contractor. But my table of design temperatures indicates that 15F is appropriate for New York City. There is no listing for Long Island in my table. So it might be correct to assume L.I. is 15F colder than NYC. My intuition says no, but there are contractors from there that post here, so they may verify if your number or mine is closer to correct.
But as you say, "Should retry that at 15 or 20 degrees but it don't matter . They don't make an oil boiler that small " Same with gas. I need about 30 to 35 thousand BTU/hour when it gets down to 0F around here, and it doesn't. Design temperature here is 14F. I have seen it get down to about 9F for a few hours once a year, but that is about it.
I wish they made smaller mod-con boilers. You wish they made smaller oil burning boilers. I notice that they now make slightly smaller mod-con gas boilers, but not as small as I would have liked. Do boiler makes still assume we all live in three story Victorian houses with single glazed windows, 10 feet high ceilnigs, and no insulation?
I think with oilthe size is limited to how low you can run a nozzle . The lowest we use typically is .50 gph . Some mobile homes use a .40 in their furnaces though .
0 degree outdoor is lowballing it for here . My boiler is pretty closely matched to my heatloss and on a lower than design day it ran only 7 or 8 hours . Makes me think heatloss software is VERY liberal with their factors . I always wondered how they came up with their original formulas . Maybe need a tweaking .
Still waiting for HVHEHCCA's " curve " he promised ...........
additional infoI'm told by the general contractor that the heating subcontractor originally recommended a WBV-04, with a power vent option. My main technician for my oil company mentioned that those can get noisy, (it's also another failure point I'm thinking) and recommended we go with a model with integrated direct vent option. I was assuming that a WV-DV-04 (vs. the -03) is the one that's equivalent in capacity to a WBV-04.
FYI, I'm not interested in the Pinnacle. One service tech I spoke with was not at all a fan of condensing boilers (among other things, concerns about the quality of available fuel's sulfur content) plus wanting to see more experience with them in the U.S. first...
Personally, I REALLY want to keep my tech happy and so I'm happy to go with the more traditional approach.
We currently have two zones and a tankless coil for hot water, for a split with 1840 sq ft. finished living space.
Added to this is new construction of a 420 sq ft great room, plus installation of the indirect water heater to get off the tankless we've had with our original equipment.
1840 sq ft
zone 1: upstairs
zone 2: downstairs
tankless coil for hot water
2260 sq ft
zone 1: upstairs (unchanged)
zone 2: downstairs (unchanged)
zone 3: new 420 sq foot great room upstairs
indirect water heater, e.g. Mega-Stor 53
I haven't been privy to any heat loss calculations, so don't know if the 04 is overkill or not.
Comments welcome, thanks so much.
"I haven't been privy to any heat loss calculations"I would change this situation NOW. Oversized equipment wastes a lot of fuel.
Also, the WBV series is a pin-type boiler. These are more difficult to maintain than the newer three-pass units such as Buderus G115, Biasi, Burnham MPO, Solaia and others. With the latter, you can pretty much get at everything by opening the large door on the front. Three-pass boilers are also a bit more efficient.
The easier it is to maintain a boiler, the better chance that it will be properly maintained."Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
We live in the same size house as you.We have a Peerless WBV 03 with a tankless coil and live on Long Island. There are 6 of us here and this boiler is actually oversized for the heat load.
Where would you put your indirect if you plan to put your boiler in a closet? Edit: Read your post again and didn't see until the second time that it would be in a different closet.
I think many of us have seen pictures of Ron Jr's System 2000s in closets stacked on top of a water storage tank heated by a plate heat exchanger. I do not know if he has done any power vented ones though.
One more thing: If you haven't finalized plans on adding to your house, you may want to make room for a boiler a higher priority. If you put the Peerless in a closet, it cannot be cleaned as well as if there was room on the sides of the boiler to brush the boiler down. I know I cannot clean these as well standing in front of it with no room as I can standing beside the boiler.This post was edited by an admin on July 24, 2011 12:21 AM.
Ask for A Heat LossBoiler is over-sized ask for a heat loss to be done. Betting man says, boiler needs to be no more then 80K. I agree with Steamhead, the 3-pass boiler is the way to go."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
Heat lossis well under 80K. The same guys who don't like anything new will disagree with that also. "We always did it that way"
Buderus G125-21BE in NHInstalled the smallest G125BE in Feb 09 - 2800SF Cape 3 Zones plus ST160 tank stack arrangement - fresh air makeup and chimney vented (but can be direct vented). Heat loss calculated to be 65-70K BTU @-5 degree for our area.
Former oil consumption 900 Gal Per year, now 500 Gal per year. G125BE blue flame is awesome, still burning blue @ 1700 hours on the same nozzle!
Checked eff. last year and is still running 89.7-90.7 depending on the temp of the boiler.
The other aspect this is installed in a 5x8 room in the center of the house so is a tight space. see pics.