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    The FUN has begun... (77 Posts)

  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 7:13 AM
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    The FUN has begun...

    Finally, the new "utility room" addition to the sleeper house is done, and I have begun the task of rebuilding the mechanical systems for what is known locally as "The Sleeper" house.

    Here is an exterior photo of the iconic symbol perched high above I-70 in Genesee Colorado. Everyone is familiar with the exterior of the house, and now that I am charged with making it as energy efficient as it can reasonably be, I am learning a LOT more about the internal workings. Most of the people who knew something about the super structure and supporting mechanical systems are long gone, so I've had to do a LOT of onsite investigations. First task was to discover and repair 4 freeze breaks and one ridiculous cut -n- cap job done by some local service company. That process took one week, and took me to some pretty scary places within the shell of the building.

    In any case, we are under the gun to get 'er done because O' Man Winter is just on the there side of the continental divide.

    I will provide up dates as time allows. This system is going to be a real eye opener, using state of the art equipment.

    Also, a large Thank You and tip of the proverbial hat to Paul Rohrs and all the good folks at Lochinvar for their assistance and participation on this project. I assure you, this is going to be a mechanical room like none you've ever seen before...

    Stay tuned and feel free to ask questions.

    Enjoy!

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    This post was edited by an admin on October 6, 2011 7:29 AM.
  • MikeyB MikeyB @ 10:44 AM
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    Project

    Looks like a fun project, best of luck with it Mark. How do you plan to vent the Knights? I recently heard from Lochinvar that they are in the middle of approving Polypropylene pipe (Innoflue)for venting of some of their boilers, and they will be updating their Install manuals for this type of pipe soon, might be a good option over pvc/cpvc if the venting will  be a challenge.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:23 AM
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    Venting issues....

    Yes, we are facing some definite venting issues. The new owner owns a commercial construction firm that specializes in traffic control signals. I told him that we were facing certain expansion/contraction issues. He is a fantastic imagineer. He said they run into this problem with their conduits when running them across bridges. I calculate that our venting run will experience approximately 7.7" of growth from cold to hot, and if not accommodated, it IS going to create other issues. So, we are developing an expansion joint to take care of the problem. More later.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Fantastic!

    It looks out of this world. 

    Keep us connected.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 6:39 PM
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    Next thing you know

    it will be retrofitting the space station heating system. You are by the way the perfect guy for that seeing you live and work in a limited amount of air environment at high altitude

    Looks like an interesting project.
  • Clif Heeney Clif Heeney @ 8:40 AM
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    Flying Saucer House

    Hi Mark!

    When we infrequently traveled to Denver when I was much younger (mid 1960's) we always looked forward to seeing the Flying Saucer House.  That is what my family called it.  We also thought that it was round, but can see from your photos that it is not!

    Please do keep posting on your project.  I always wondered what the interior looked like, now I know what some of it looks like.  It will be great to see your promised mechanical room!

    Be Well, My Friend

    Clif
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:41 PM
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    End of day 2...

    Amazing what a person can do with the right power tools, isn't it...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Kestrel Kestrel @ 8:41 AM
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    beautiful wall of pipes

    Hey Mark - I'm getting ready to install my Knight (I decided to go with the WHN-085).
    Is it possible to post some closer-in pics of the near boiler piping - for a newbie getting his bearing correct?  Also, do you have a schematic of the system, for orientation?

    I'm curious, also - what drove the decision on the make/model of the boilers?

    Thanks!
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:58 AM
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    Kestrel...

    The owner depends on me to make the decisions about product selection. In my humble opinion, the Knights represent the best state of the art product available on the North American market. They have THE most flexible controls of ANY boiler I've seen on the open market.

    As for near boiler piping, I can't do it any justice with a camera. The best recommendation I can make would be to follow the manufacturers installation manual to the T. The boiler comes with its own boiler circulator, which has an internal check valve. If you will be dong DHW from your boiler, the pump serving the DHW tank must also have a check valve in its circuit. The manuals are available on line at lochinvar.com

    I will have to generate a drawing, and won't be able to do so until next week. It is a 2 temperature system,set up primary/secondary. The boilers and their pumps are the primary, and the loads are coming off this primary as secondaries. It will also be doing snowmelt through a flat plate heat exchanger. The logic on the Knights allow for up to three different outdoor temperature resets, and I will be using all three on this project. Low (RFH) medium high (rental panel radiators) and high (snowmelt) temperature calls.

    I do not work up there on Fridays. I save that day for "other" work and am headed out the door to the Western Slope to perform some necessary changes to a friends heating system in Dillon, then on to Hydronicahhh. I just turned my heating system on up their via the internet and my ENV control logic. Nothing better than showing up to your second home that is nice and toasty warm..:-)

    Boiler sizing was based on a zero diversity load factor, and the needs of the building/physical plant considerations and altitude (8,000' ASL).

    Keep us posted on your progress.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 13, 2011 10:16 AM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:32 PM
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    End of day 3...

    Notice the telephone commercial....

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:37 PM
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    Traffic Jam...

    Was 5 minutes late arriving at the job today. Had to wait for these animals to cross the road... It's a TOUGH job, but somebody has GOT to do it... :-)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    This post was edited by an admin on October 23, 2011 10:06 AM.
  • lchmb lchmb @ 6:38 AM
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    wow

    Sometimes this job is just fun...and your having one of those times! Nice Job!!
  • Paul Rohrs Paul Rohrs @ 9:41 AM
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    Nice...

    Admittedly I am a little bit biased but that is the start of one terrific looking job.

    Looking forward to seeing the final results.   Do you have a target completion date?

    Regards,

    Paul
    p.s.- If those were steam boilers, you could have a calliope!
    This post was edited by an admin on October 12, 2011 9:44 AM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:05 AM
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    Funny you should say that...

    The owner had all of his family up for the end of the filming session with H&G TV yesterday, and his eldest son grabbed a chair and was sitting in front of the manifold looking like an organ player, while his younger brother snapped pictures of him...

    The completion date is within the next thirty days for the heating system. Problem is, the owner is ADD, and keeps changing his mind about route manner and method. It's his money, and I am now working by the hour, so the target keeps moving. It just makes scheduling other work a little tough, but the pay is great, and working with the owner is a lot of fun. He owns a large construction company that does mostly electrical work for traffic control systems (cars and light rail transportation systems) here in Denver.

    This is going to be the ultimate Man Cave when it is done... Bowling alley, Starship Enterprise Control Deck, Dilithium Crystal Mine, Super Efficient hydronic heating system and on and on....

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MikeyB MikeyB @ 9:40 AM
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    Nice

    Real nice work Mark, I have a few questions, Are you doing all the work yourself? or do you have Helper/Mechanic on board along w/you, what do you have in mind for DHW? Any reason your not using ProPress? what kind of realy controls are you going to use? Sorry about all the questions, please keep the pictures coming
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:09 AM
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    Thanks Mikey...

    I am a sole proprietor. One man shop.

    THe owner has provided me with an excellent common laborer who is ready and willing to learn, but I have him doing menial tasks like cutting uni strut (200' of the stuff), helping me hang boilers on the wall and the such. I may let hime burn few easy access joints later.

    I use a power saw (10" carbide tip chop saw) and clean the ends with a Rockwell1" belt sander. Not your "manual" normal set up.

    I enjoy working by myself. It makes my ingenuity shine :-)

    As for Pro Press, firstly, I don't own a machine. I came out of partial retirement to do this job. Secondly, the owner is old school. He'd rather pay extra for the craftsmanship and have it look fantastic, as opposed to getting it done quicker, but looking kind of funky. Unless you have both ends of your work tightly chucked in strut, it is almost impossible to get a straight joint with PP. Such is the price of speed...

    Larry, the owner, said on camera yesterday that the mechanical system is his tribute to the working tradesman. I am honored to be working with him on this project. Not only is he extremely intelligent out of the box thinker, he also fancies himself as an amateur artist, and actually owns a LOT of famous art work,some of which will hang in this extremely unique museum/home..

    As for controls, there are some existing controls that the previous owner had installed. It is a whole house EMS/Security/sound/ audio video system. We will re-use that system, and tie it back into the new system. The Knights will be run on their Cascade control logic, with the right hand boiler being the Leader, and also doing DHW through an indirect heater. Ilook forward to hearing the symphony when the system is fired up.

    There are two Wilo VS circulators, which will be controlled by the Knights.

    The diamond plate is mounted to 3/4" plywood, which is mounted on 2X4 stand off. All (most) wiring will be hidden behind the board for the "clean" look. This whole system will be the central focus point of his Man Cave. He intends to put up some track lighting to highlight the boiler operation. The Knight controls will also be interfaced into one of four computers that will be a part of the Star Trek Control System, and will allow him to bring the boilers computer up on the the big screen.

    You can't really see it well, but there is a large rock outcropping that juts into the mechanical room, and he is going to polish this rock, enhance it with some special treatments, and put it under a black light, which will allow it to glow. It's his Dilithium Crystal mine...

    I asked the producers from H&G TV how many Man Caves they'd seen that actually had a real rock structure in them. She answered "NONE"...

    Did I mention that he's going to have a single lane bowling alley down there? Cosmic Bowling with laser lights, and dynamic sounds, etc...

    Thanks, and keep the questions coming.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 12:43 PM
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    Mark, my next Mod/Con Boiler

    manual Volume IV is going to feature the Knight. I could use some photos as you proceed and I will feature them in the manual if you don't mind.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:11 AM
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    ABsolutely Tim...

    I have a lot of other Lochinvar photos as well.


    Let me know when you want/need them.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 11:48 AM
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    I will let you know

    Mark as I am still in the research phase for the Knight.
  • NYplumber NYplumber @ 12:57 AM
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    Solder relief

    " I may let hime burn few easy access joints later."

    Have him start with the relief valve piping....not much you can mess up there.



    "I use a power saw (10" carbide tip chop saw) and clean the ends with a Rockwell1" belt sander. Not your "manual" normal set up."

    Is this how you cut and clean your copper? Interesting!?!
    :NYplumber:
    This post was edited by an admin on October 17, 2011 12:58 AM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 5:48 PM
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    The fun continues...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MikeyB MikeyB @ 7:40 PM
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    Update

    ME, Fantastic work. Where are you locating your PONPC? and will you be incorporating a by-pass on your PRV rig to make up for the initial fill/purge (looks like it will take a while)? or do you use a differant method? You should vidoe tape your start up and post it on You Tube, for us to view.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:01 AM
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    Thanks Mikey...

    The PONPC will be connected to one of the branches on the bottom between the fill and purge ball valve. The expansion tank will physically be located to the left of the board, and the DHW tank to the right, near the boilers. All pumps will pump away from the PONPC.

    There will not be a continuous make up, rather an oversized expansion tank with reservoir capacity to handle deaeration, and an owner who is VERY aware of all operating parameters. There will be an extra low pressure sensor wired to the ones energy management system. We will know there is an issue before the owners does. Also, there will be some fairly expensive art in the home, and the homeowner is trying to get a break on his premiums by NOT having a continuous source of make up water to the heating system, just in case....

    I am thinking of getting one of those helmet cams, and recording numerous sessions of the work being performed for later production on You Tube. Great idea. Got to document while the documenting is good :-)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • james patrick james patrick @ 8:24 PM
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    WOW

    Cool system.
    Post pics when you can.
    I read that Genesee Colorado is about 7650-8000' elevation.
    Did you get the high altitude controllers?
    I've been trying for 6 weeks to get a price quote for the WHN085 high altitude.
    I'm still fighting with my TT Solo 60 E02 errors.
    BBP
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:49 PM
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    Fer sure...

    Rated for high altitude application.

    I've been off the job for a while, waiting for the sheet rockers/finishers/painters/texture people to get out of my way. Will take some more progress pictures as soon as I get back up there.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:12 PM
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    Update...

    The project continues t move forward.

    Hope to have pressure tests on the system soon. WIll be starting the wiring soon with colored conduit. THe carpenters began building the control deck for the Starship today. It is going to be AWESOME. 4 HUGE big screen TV's, and on and on...

    Enjoy

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MikeyB MikeyB @ 5:11 AM
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    Nice Work

    Looking great Mark, can you tell us more about the method your using for Expansion/Contraction on the Exhaust & Intake? in the last pic it in the middle it looks like you have some kind of Expasion joint on the pipes? and I noticed the small rings of 4 inch over your 3" pipe.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:57 AM
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    Good eye Mikey...

    I have what I refer to as "Anchors", which are the ones with the 3" clamps on them. These are the points that growth/contraction would emminate FROM. Then we have a bunch of what I refer to as "Glides". The glides are 4" PVC placed over the 3" to allow the pipe to move freely. The growth potential is then directed to the expansion joints, of which there are three in the long run. One on each remote end, and one in the middle.

    These expansion joint units are constructed of CPVC, have 2 each Buna N O rings recessed in machined grooves, and have 10" of overall travel before the unit is either fully compressed, or completely retracted. They are set at the mid range level to accomodate either expansion or contraction. Each joint will help to accomodate an overall expansion potential of 7", and will hence see approximately 2.5" of movement.

    Although not currently shown, each expansion joint will have a Unistrut stabilizer firmly clamped to it to keep the joint from getting cocked during movement.

    This growth potential has raised its ugly head numerous times during my tenure, especially in situations where we have to go vertical though a numerous story building to get from the basement to the roof. The typical response is to bind the tubing every 3', and hope for the best. On jobs where I have had an opportunity to go back and review the system, the tubing is showing signs of stress and waer at the tube to clamp interface, and the Unistrut system was showing signs of movement and eventual failure of the concrete anchors. It's time to address the 500 pound gorilla sitting in the corner. The owner of this home was key in finding a good solution and is willing to allow for regular inspections to make sure that it is working as designed. He is smart enough to realize that he may have a long term solution to a potential problem. His company utilizes these expansion joints on long bridges that have conduits running the length of the bridge. He liked the idea of using anchors and glides and actually controlling the directional growth potentials.

    So many times, we take things for granted in the field, and never really give it any thought until it is too late, and something has failed. I would NEVER consider experimentation at the consumers expense, but we had a serious situation that had to be addressed and none of the current manufacturers had any solutions for our problem... And this is NOT a regular consumer.

    There will be a CO alarm at each and every expansion joint located in the Cosmic Bowling alley. Did I mention that he has decided to install a long single rail of strut on the ceiling down this hallway with a trolley to allow whoever is the pin sitter to get to the other end of the alley quickly:-) ? I am going to help him develop a hand brake to slow the trolley down near the end of the tunnel.

    Fun project for sure.

    Thanks for asking Mikey.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MikeyB MikeyB @ 10:16 AM
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    Expansion Joint

    Mark, when you get a chance can you take a close up pic of the Expansion joint? and thanks for the detailed explanition, this really is a cool project
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:13 PM
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    Better yet...

    Here is the manufacturers drawing of the product.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 12:27 AM
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    I Thought They Looked Familiar

    Mark,

    That's the same expansion coupling that we use on the riser from an underground conduit for an electric service. I wonder if any equipment manufactures would write these into the I&O manuals.

    Another great idea by M.E.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:14 AM
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    Thanks Bob...

    I am doubtful that any of the manufacturers will spec this product until it is completely tested,listed and labeled for the application, and that all takes a significant amount of time and money.

    The best that we can hope for is that they recognize the fact that expansion and contraction MUST be accounted for, and compensated for. If they create a demand, someone will come up with an approved solution. At present, its like the problem doesn't exist in their minds eye, therefore it doesn't exist.

    The Europeans probably have not seen it as an issue because their venting runs are typically so short. That is by intent and design. Here in the good ol' US of A, our main physical plant is usually centrally core located,hence the need for longer vertical and horizontal runs. In this particular case, the roof over this structure is a landscaped area frequented by people (I call it the Partio) and venting in the vicinity was not an option.

    Sometimes you have to deal with the hand that you were dealt...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • mars mars @ 2:27 PM
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    Perfect fit Mark

    That project looks like a fun one Mark have a good time with it. I am a little bit jealous, we should do lunch when we get the chance. I will be working in Riva Chase on Thursday and Friday we could try to do Guidos for a slice. 
    Matt Rossi
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 7:32 PM
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    If you;d like to see the insides of this unique home....

    Tune in to Home and Garden TV in 30 minutes...

    If I didn't end up on the cutting room floor, you MIGHT get a quick glimpse of me. :-)

    Enjoy!

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Sal Santamaura Sal Santamaura @ 3:47 PM
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    I watched it...

    and thought us lucky that a few brief shots of (Myson?) baseboards survived the cut.  Then you and your diamond plate-mounted artwork appeared.  You looked a lot less tired than one would expect for a contractor who must have recently become an engineer and who's working 24 hours per day.  :)

    Congratulations!  Enjoy your 15 minutes...
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 5:52 PM
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    Thanks Sal...

    Actually, those were Runtal radiators. Good eye tho...

    I think the producer was probably running scared of irking one of thier regular advertisers because there was a LOT more filming that took place in the mechanical room that didn't make the final cut.

    Funny how they can spend the better part of 2 days on site and only come out with 15 minutes worth of tape. There were also a lot of other scenes that didn't make it to the final cut. Oh well. My fleeting brush with movie stardom will have to wait :-)

    Upward an onward.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MikeOBrien MikeOBrien @ 6:10 PM
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    Very nice looking job!

    Hey buddy looks great!  Gotta admit I'm super jealous but couldn't think of a better mind for the job!
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:49 PM
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    Hi Mike...

    Thanks for the kudos. Thought about you yesterday as I was drinking my Organo Gold coffee in the mountains. In fact, I parked in your Uncles snowy driveway to check on his neighbor yesterday.

    Hope you and the girls are doing well.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 4:13 PM
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    Fire in the hole....

    I test fired both of the Lochinvar boilers today. I have the high voltage side wired, but am awaiting the electricians to get me permanent power before I turn the new system completely over. To be honest, I wanted to "test" the expansion joints, and couldn't wait any longer, so I hooked the 119 gallon reverse indirect up to the lead boiler, filled it with water and turned it loose.

    The pipes shown, going from top to bottom are (1) exhaust, (2) combustion air, (3) exhaust and (4) combustion air. All joint were initially set to EXACTLY the same, so as you can see, the # 3 tube is partially telescoped into the expansion joint receiver. It works exactly as I had planned. :-)

    Still lots of work to do on the low voltage side, with three 6 station ZVC's to be invisibly wired, and actually tying the new into the old.

    Will post pics of that part as time allows, and work gets done.

    Enjoy, and ask away!

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MikeyB MikeyB @ 7:22 PM
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    Indirect

    Very cool Mark, what made you choose a 119 gallon Reverse Indirect?, I know you like the Reverse style but I'm curious how you settled on a 119 gallon tank, and what brand do you you like & why?, what kind of hot water load does the house have, are there dump loads, alot of bathrooms? Please share your DHW sizing method. I am looking forward to see how you piped in the Indirect, I am sure it will look very sharp.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:17 PM
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    Big tanks....

    Mikey,

    There's one of those BIG 1 woman, 3 man Jacuzzi soaking tubs in the master bathroom, and 4 other showers throughout the house, plus two washing machines, 2 dishwashers, two kitchen sinks and on and on. OK, the tub only holds two people, but I estimate it will take about 100 gallons to fill.

    That tank is a Turbomax. I've been using them for about 10 years, and not had any failures, and NEVER had anyone complain about hot water shortages or fluctuations. It is of European design.

    It is piped counter flow, per the manufacturers installation instructions.

    It is prioritized per Lochinvars' instructions.

    As for sizing, I always use the Raypak sizing guide, and I've never had any problems. One thing in particular I like about the RP sizing guide is that you can substitute recovery for storage, and vice a versa and still cover the load. THese reverse indirects are really nothing more than a HUGE shell and tube heat exchanger (Think Everhot), and it can handle up to 400K btuH input, and will transfer 99% of the supplied energy and convert it to hot water. It also only requires a boiler target temperature that is roughly 10 degrees F hotter than the final hot water temperature, which keeps the boiler in the condensing mode, even when its doing DHW. Not many tank manufacturers can make and support that claim.

    Thanks for asking!

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Tim P. Tim P. @ 4:49 PM
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    pvc expansion joints

    By coincidence I found that Charlotte also makes PVC expansion joints for use in DWV.

    It's "Part No. 133" in their catalog (http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/DimensionalCatalogs/Plastic_Pipe_Fittings_DC-DWV%28609%29.pdf)

    Anyway, thanks for sharing.  I check back often to see if this thread has been updated.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 5:28 PM
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    Upon closer inspection....

    I had my wholesale supplier look into those, because I had used them before on expansive soils. The manufacturer allows them to be used in vertical applications only :-(

    I suspect that their lawyers would have a hissy fit if someone applied them horizontally, and in a pipe conveying deadly gasses...

    One of these days, someone like Charlotte will get their act together, and realize the potential in fittings like this and hopefully take the time and money necessary to get it certified for that use. Hopefully before something disasterous happens in the field....

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MikeyB MikeyB @ 4:07 PM
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    Termination

    Mark, what do you have in mind for the vent/intake termination for both boilers?
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 6:41 PM
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    Terminations not finalized yet....

    The owner is going to commission a metal artist/sculpturist to do the vent termination. They might be a rocket ship, or maybe a Jetsons mobile.

    We thought about Gargoyle, but it doesn't really fit into the architecture...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Roland Roland @ 7:06 PM
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    Terminations

    The only logical choice:
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 4:53 PM
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    Kathy Lee Gifford

    wife of Frank Gifford has a gargoyle terminating in here garden from her Munchkin out on Nantucket. Really wild in the middle of winter when everyting around it freezes up and forms an ice sculpter.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:37 PM
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    Now that

    Would be cool. Steaming Gargoyle, how creative.

    Gordy
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:37 PM
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    Now that

    Would be cool. Steaming Gargoyle, how creative.

    Gordy
  • Simply Rad Simply Rad @ 8:30 PM
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    ME i think you are turning into a Martian


    Make sure to enjoy your holidays.  I will call you back soon.


                                                                                                         
    stamp1.jpg
  • Sven Sven @ 8:48 PM
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    saw the show

    and thought of this place after seeing Mark.
    Congrats and happy holidays.
    been a few years since I was here.

    Sven
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:35 AM
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    It is DONE...

    Well, MOSTY done. I have to move some improperly located T stats, make birth certificates for the boilers, generate a final drawing of as built, and other minor mechanical details, but it is done and running for the most part. Like listening to symphony when the appliances are running. Here are some pictures.

    Enjoy!

    I did. ;-)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:03 AM
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    Amazing

    Mark
     I gotta ask when you go into something like this. How much design is on paper, and how much is in the field on the fly. With you its probably all in your head, and now your going to draw it up when your done....Jealous.

    Gordy
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:26 PM
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    Gordy...

    Before I can generate a bid, I have to generate a conceptual drawing for pricing. I usually do that by hand. If the owner wants a detailed drawing, I use my original hand drawing, plus photography for the As Built drawing. I will share it with you all when I get it done.

    To be honest, once I get started, I don't usually have to go back to the drawing, but that comes from years of doing it. I will occasionally forget a peripheral device (like a temperature gauge or something simple), but not very often.

    Thanks for asking.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 11:05 AM
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    Zow!

    That is a beautiful install. You don't by chance happen to own any copper mining stocks, do you?
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:29 PM
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    Copper stock...

    The owner is "old school". He WANTED copper. As previously stated, this is his tribute to the working trades people.

    The existing system was done in mostly PEX, and it looked like a bowl of spaghetti. Not pretty by any stretch of the imagination. I will have to track down the picture of the old mechanical room so you can see why he was not interested in using PEX.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Slimpickins Slimpickins @ 1:00 PM
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    Nice!

    Looks great! I couldn't see how you dealt with the condensate in the pics. Thanks for keeping fine craftsmanship alive and well!
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:36 PM
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    Condensate....

    The lowest, furthest forward copper pipe is the condensate drain system. (I can hear it already, "COPPER for a condensate removal system? Is he CRAZY or what?")

    I've been doing some tests over the last 10 years, and I have found that copper handles condensate a lot better than we originally thought. It also is a natural anti bacterial, which keeps the problematic algae slime blooms at bay. The condensate goes to a sump with a pump and it then pumped to a plastic drain. All of the sanitary waste drains in this house are plastic, hence no reason to neutralize. By the time the condensate gets to the septic tank, it will be so diluted, its pH won't matter. Besides, the well water here is fairly acidic anyway due to the pine trees.

    Thanks for asking.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Plumdog Plumdog @ 9:26 PM
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    Are you Crazy?

    I just removed a copper condensate drain (4 years old) that had a hole all the way down the length of it at the bottom. Seen it before too, several times. Maybe you could sleeve some pvc?!. Love the Tribute to the Working Man. Tough to find anybody that cares these days.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:47 PM
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    LP or Natural gas?

    I've been testing copper on NG for a LONG time, and haven't had any failures.

    LP, now thats a different animal and I've not tested it.

    I had a copper drain waste heat recovery heat exchanger connected to the exhaust of my boiler here in DEnver, and was preheating the incoming cold water before it hit my DHW system, and ran it for 4 years, and when I pulled it, I fully expected to see a crevice on the bottom weir/flow line of the exchanger, and there was NO parent material missing.

    I also have numerous "samples" in my condensate receiver bucket, and again no issues, and more importantly, no algae/slime,

    And yes, I am crazy :-)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Brent H. Brent H. @ 3:01 PM
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    Insulation?

    Mark,

    The install truely shows what can be done by a skilled craftsman.

    I have often wondered when looking at pictures on the site of nice installs, where is the insulation? It seems like quite a bit of heat would be lost before getting to its intended location.

    Beautiful work.

    -Brent
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:41 PM
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    Insulation...

    would cover all that pretty shiny pipe ;-(

    I've warned the owner that it may be necessary to keep the mechanical room reasonably cool. He really wants to see the copper, in fact paid me to polish the copper and brass with Brasso, metal polish. He;s having his painter spray it with something called Diamond to keep it nice and shiny and avoid additional oxidation.

    If it gets too hot in the room, he knows that insulation will have to be done, but he wants to see how it works before he insulates, if at all. Bear in mind that this room has no heat source, other than the heating system, and it is on an ODR program, 3 of them actually, so heat loss from the pipes will be commensurate with heat demand.

    Time will tell.

    Thanks for asking.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MikeyB MikeyB @ 6:57 PM
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    MER

    Very Nice Mark, thanks for sharing this project with us, now that is job is almost complete can we expect you will get back to work on your Book/Manuals you were planning on finishing and selling here on HH, thanks
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:18 AM
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    Still a work in progress Mikey..

    After the crash, I got so burnt out that I had to push it to the side due to a hectic work schedule, and that schedule is getting busier. Thanks for the reminder.
    And thanks for your patience.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Simply Rad Simply Rad @ 11:06 PM
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    That a boy!

    ME

    A few questions for the professor
    - I noticed you used CPVC for the first 10' or so of the exhaust.  Where did you get that length?
    -What are the rainbow lines running in front of the boiler control board?
    -How did you get that much space?  You were able to sign your name on that big of wall space!  The more space the, more creative we can get.

    Not to bad for a semi-retired guy....hahahahaha

    Great job
    Jeffrey
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:33 AM
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    Thanks Jeffrey...

    The use of CPVC is a requirement that is in the I&O manual. Fortunately for me, the expansion joints are also made of CPVC. This is a new requirement of Lochinvar, along with their requirement for 1" clearance to combustibles, which I have explained to them is going to create problems in the field. You can't take a 3" pipe, give it 1" clearance to combustibles, and expect it to fit within the confines of a 2 X 6 wall. The OD of this whole configuration would be 5.5", which doesn't leave any wood for structural considerations. I will say this for Lochinvar, they have a VERY WARY staff of legal beagles watching out for the companies interests. With the owner being an electrical contractor, he provided all of the parts (except the CPVC 90's which I got from Matt Carr at Dahl Denver.)

    The "space" was added on to the existing structure. The owner had a large track hoe literally scratching this new mechanical room space out of decomposed granite. If you look closely, you can see some of the rock outcropping jutting into the room to the left of the board. He's going to have that rock polished to highlight it. I call it his dilithium crystal farm for powering the space ship :-)

    At the end of the long hallway is his DiHydrogen Monoxide storage area...

    The rainbow array of conduit are just as much for show as functionality. The low voltage wiring for security, sound and communications are being run through the rainbows.

    I miss my naps.... :-)

    Thanks for asking.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 7:26 PM
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    Drawings....

    Timmy Mac, feel free to use these in whatever way they will help you. Same goes to anyone else in the education biz. Help your selves.

    Enjoy!

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • MikeyB MikeyB @ 7:29 PM
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    Dwgs

    Thanks for sharing this with us Mark, I know I asked this question a while back, but any chance of bringing your talent to the Long Island/New York area for some training and or seminars? 
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:34 PM
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    No plans right now Mikey...

    But have bags, and will travel if you find a sponsor (wholesaler or rep agency) that is willing to pay my way.

    Thanks for asking tho...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • PeterNH PeterNH @ 3:06 PM
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    Preferred Zone Valve

     
     
    Hello Mark,
    Wondering what brand of zone vavles you used.
    They look like Honeywell or Caleffi or?

    Thanks,
    Peter
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 5:15 PM
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    Honeywell...

    V8043 (I don't remember the last digits, but it is the lower CV valve).

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • KCA KCA @ 4:11 AM
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    Real nice job Mark

    I just now caught site of the post..  Looks good...  And if it looks good it probably works good..  OK.. Well..  Lol..

     Woody would be proud...

      :-)  KCA
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:16 AM
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    Thanks Ken...

    It was one fun job. I'm planning on going up there and taking pictures of the finished product (Starship Enterprise control room) soon.

    Will post them when I get them.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • KCA KCA @ 2:59 AM
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    One other thing..

    I've been seeing more of the diamond background where I have always used plywood off the wall about 2" and painted white...  I like the diamond looking background better...  It's SEXY! ...  What is it and what does it cost?

      :-)  KCA
    This post was edited by an admin on March 2, 2012 3:02 AM.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 6:33 AM
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    If it is what I think it is,

    it is called "diamond plate." It is commonly steel, but I suppose it is available in aluminum as well. It is usually heavy as it is used as something to walk on, and the "diamonds" are to reduce slipperyness.

    By heavy, I mean like 1/4 inch thick, not 0.062, 0.040, or something like that.
  • Paul Rohrs Paul Rohrs @ 8:12 AM
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    Diamond Plate

    I think Jeffrey Young (Heatboy) was the first to post jobs on this site using diamond plate and thus the diamond plate rush ensued.

    We used quite a bit of it and prices may vary.   As it is a non-industry specific product I don't think Dan would mind discussing pricing of that material.

    I previously bought 4x8 sheets of Aluminum diamond plate 100/1000 thickness for about $180.00.  (It's been about 3-yrs now)

    Best,

    Paul
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:51 AM
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    The owners idea...

    I'd probably have just used white Melamine, but the owner, who builds custom cars in his spare time, had used the diamond plate for lining the bed of a pickup truck (1957 Chevy 3 rear windows p.u. truck) with the diamond plate, and decided he wanted to use it.

    Got no arguments from me :-)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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