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Peerless PI-80, F14 Fault (21 Posts)
Peerless PI-80, F14 FaultI have a Peerless PI-80 installed (+/- 7 years). I am by no means experienced with heating systems but have found myself in a situation where I need to go a bit outside the typical call to my heating contractor to get some help and info; my apologies in advance for being the dumb one on the board. The boiler was originally installed by my ex-husband and ran without issue for the past 7 or so years despite no annual maintenance. I have recently taken the house back and found that there were some problems with the installation (not even close to properly vented, peripheral pipes and equipment in very tough shape, leaking etc). I had my contractor in and they corrected the ventilation issues, etc. 2 days later the unit starts faulting at F14; I could hit the reset and it would fire back up for a while (20 min to 3 hours, varies). Needless to say it's getting cold in NH so I called the contractor back and through working with Peerless and other resources identified the parts that might be causing the issues (control board or blower motor I believe). We decided to start with a good cleaning since the parts, if both were needed would actually exceed the original cost of the boiler-cleaning did nothing to fix the issue. By the time they came for the cleaning (4 days later) the reset was not working anymore; it would not fire up. After the cleaning I am able to reset and get some run time out of it again. This morning I sat and waited for it since I know I may only get about 5-10 mins of run-time on the first morning reset; it did fire up, came to temp and ran for a few minutes, then it sounded like the blower surged and it went into the F14 fault. I am in a tough situation because I have just paid more than the original amount of the boiler to have the peripheral pipes, etc replaced and the venting fixed- I can afford to put a little more into the unit but not much. I have given the history of the boiler since some may be contributing to the F14 fault more so than what the typical F14 fault points to. I am looking for a cost effective solution whether it is to replace the whole unit, go with parts investment, or perhaps more service based on the poor maintenance history and recent changes to the venting, etc. I am hoping for some guidance in that regard. As an aside, through my limited recent experience, what I am finding is that the Munchkin 80M and the Peerless PI-80 are pretty much the same units. Knowing whether this is the case is significant in terms of part interchangeability, as I am finding that the Munchkin parts are easier to source and that they are about 1/3 of the cost of the Peerless versions... many thanks in advance for any feedback/guidance!A. J. Alden
series 2F14 error would be an issue with the inducer motor (speed 130% higher than expected) and that's where I would start...Is this propane or natural gas? The cleaning was very important and should be done yearly per spec.
Part NumberI am looking at P/N 7250P-085 for the motor (Munchkin version), sound right?A. J. Alden
Munchkin Faults:Your Peerless is a M-80 Munchkin. There were problems with that series. Usually gas mixture and venting issues. There are a lot of Munchkins installed in NH where you live. You need to find a technician that is familiar with Series 2 Munchkins. The installation manual that comes with that boiler (i believe) is kind of sketchy. But you have the fault codes. If it says that the blower is over-speeding, it probably is and needs to be replaced. But the increase in fan speed when shutting down is normal and part of the post purge sequence.
Is "F-14" the only fault code you have ever gotten?
Did this shut down problem start after they "fixed" the vent system?
Have you or the techs tried taking the cover off and letting it run without the cover to see if it stays running?
It's been my understanding that Munchkin parts will fit your Pinnacle
The biggest difference is the green cover.
Does the gas valve say "Honeywell"?
Does it ever "moan" when running, starting or shutting down?
Is it LP or Natural Gas?
Let us know
Answers...Thanks very much for posting!! The system runs natural gas and F14 is the only error code to date. This began to occur right after the venting was correct. The cover has been off for a couple months now because I have to reset so often to get it to run a little. The valve is a honeywell.A. J. Alden
Resets:You should only need to turn the power off to the boiler and turn it back on to reset it. What else do you do? Does it have a LED display that is giving you the fault codes or do you need to count flashing lights on the control board?
I can't explain how to tell but perhaps you have a Dungs Burner and it has a bad swirl plate. That would cause it to start going out after time and slowly get worse. Does it ever moan when it runs? Do you hear it stop and start repeatedly?
If it has the 901 or whatever the number the control is, someone with the program can connect a laptop computer and down load all the events the control has had.
A really good gas technician who deals with Munchkins would do this.
ResetGood morning! There is a digital panel that displays the fault code (F14 in this case). The panel also has the reset button so to reset I simply hit that button and it fires back up... once running it runs consistent without stopping until it faults; this couls be 15 minutes or 2 hours... right before the cleaning it did get to where it would not start upon hitting the rest (would attempt to but then go right into the fault), after the cleaning it was back to where it was after the venting fix and just before the reset no longer got it running; it is able to restart, but again, only runs for about 15 min to 2hr.A. J. Alden
F-14There is a 3 prong molix connector on the venter motor ,if you take it off the motor if good will go to high speed . If nothing happens its a bad motor.
3-Prong Molex Conn.I assume this is the connection (white) you are referring to? If so, when disconnected the fan stops...A. J. Alden
other connertorSo there is the 3 prong (which appears to be power and would make sense as to why it shut the blower down) and then there is a 5 prong under it, the 5 prong does cause the blower to speed when disconnected-is this the connector you were referring to?A. J. Alden
Post a photo of the motor and blower assembly where they connect. Speciffically, where there is an opening where you can see a space, filled by a white plastic "spacer". If you look carefully, see if you can see that the white plastic is shiny in parts but dull in others. Look to see if you can see that there are vanes in the plastic plate. When it is running, look to see if there is anything unusual that you can visually see when the burner is running. This is the "Swirl Plate where the air and gas mix and fresh air is sent into the burner. Look on the side and see if it says "Dungs". There is a problem with the Swirl Plate and deterioration. It will throw the air/fuel mixture way off and cause it to go off. Your problem may only be the swirl plate because it sounds like the motor is operating properly. If someone puts a digital combustion analyzer in the exhaust outside and the CO is way high, the swirl plate probably needs to be replaced. The Pinnicles had the old swirl plates. If it has never been changed, it needs to be.
If there was ever anything blocking the exhaust like a bush in front of it, it may have caused back-firing and over heating of the swirl plate.
Try to post a picture of the swirl plate.
Also, if you find someone with the Munchkin DX program on a laptop, the history codes will show a lot of shut-downs and re-starts. Starting back years ago. I had one with over 300 "incidents". I'd say over 1000 but no one would believe me.
All is not lost. Those are cool little boilers. They can also have problems when they are on very low fire and vented with 3" PVC. I have fixed them by putting a 3"x2" PVC bushing in the exhaust outside to increase the velocity of the exhause to over come high wind problems.
Reply...I am going to post some pic's because I am not seeing a white spacer...A. J. Alden
system pics;Here are some system picsA. J. AldenThis post was edited by an admin on December 19, 2011 9:27 AM.
High wind problemHello, What problem do you fix with high wind. I had a service guy tell me, whenever you have a utility room with a dryer a vaccum or negative pressure is created when they are both running. Thus, causes the control board to corrode and over heat. I took this into consideration and opened a hole in the wall facing the dryer inlet. Although, not ideal I wanted to increase the potential volume of air to reduce the likelyhood of a vacuum effect in the utility room (7'x11'). Any thoughts.
1st year - No issue.
2nd year - Replaced fuses
3nd year - Replace control board
4rd year - Replace control board
5th year - Replace blower
F14Your F14 is probably just a bad blower motor. F13 and F14 codes are generally the motor(95% of the time) The other 5% are the main control board and then harness in that order. This will be kind of a crap shoot, but I would check the five pin harness for any breaks or corrosion. The only thing that slows that motor down is the signal in recieves on that harness. If you don't see any sign then go ahead and replace the motor. I have never had a swirl plate cause an F13 or a F14....not saying it couldn't happen, but that in niether here nor there as you have a Honeywell with a venturi. Good luck and 7250p-085 is the one you are looking for.
One more thingJust noticed they used a concentric kit on it. I'm not a fan as these things can recirc badly on low fire. Might not be an issue, but have you contractor put his analyzer in the intake when its on low fire and see if he is getting any CO. Might have to extend the exhaust out a bit.
F14 Fault:In re-reading your post, the problem didn't start until you switched to the concentric vent. A lot of guys don't like them. I never had a problem with them. But that's my experience.
Pull ALL the connectors off every connection on the electrical wiring harness and re-set them. Push them back on firmly. It may or may not get better, But, you may need a new blower motor. It is troubling that at a time, it wouldn't even start. I would put a "Tick Tracer on the fan motor leads to see if there is power.
But I would have a combustion analyzer in the exhaust, no matter what. But as someone else has said, the blower motor is probably bad. He sounds like he really knows what he is doing with Munchkins. Far more than I.
These problems can be perplexing. You almost need to be there to get a feel of what is going on.
I had a 140M Munchkin I worked on today of your vintage. The older model had an air pressure switch that is no longer used. There was a connection for a pressure hose on the side of the outlet of the mixing chamber. There was a rubber cap over the connection. A mouse crawled into the boiler through the exhaust outlet in the back. With the cover on, the air fuel ratio became gas rich. The CO was high in the exhaust. If I removed the cover, the CO went way down. I smelled gas. I looked for the source. I saw mouse droppings all over the top of the boiler. I saw the chewed rubber cap. I plugged the hole with some RTV. We'll see how well and for how long it goes. Big problems usually have small causes.
F14More than likely the blower is not slowing down to the setting the controller wants.
So at low fire the blower does not slow down to minimum RPM, this causes the F14 code.
replace the blower.
I would go back to two seperate pipes. Because the pipes are so close to the ground both need to be snorkeled up. I like to see 18 inches minimum distance between the intake (lower pipe) and exhaust. I install a 45* turned up on the exhaust.
Exhaust reversion that always happens with your type of vent termination will destroy the blower and the control boards inside your boiler.
CaptExperiencing F13 fault code with shutdown. Can restart and operates normally for hours then recurs. Board was replaced this past Fall and unit cleaned and serviced.
F13 and F14These faults can be tricky. I will say that 95% of the time it's the combustion fan. The easiest is when they won't run at all. Then simply verify that you have 120 volts on the three pin harness going to the fan. If you do, then pull the five pin harness off the fan(red,white,blue,black). The fan should ramp up into high speed. If it does nothing it's the fan.
Another test you can do is on the low voltage harness to the unit. Test the red wire to ground which should be between 24-40 volts DC. If you have proper voltage I would replace the fan. These tests are not 100% though. i have had bad controls that would just throw the code sporadically but again this should take care of easily 95% of the issues.
Also. HTP(Heat Transfer Products) has a great APP for smart phones that has trouble shooting videos for all the fault codes. I can tell you that it is very helpful if you don't deal with these everyday.