The Wall
Forum / Gas Heating / Do I really need a Navien CH-240?
  • Post a Reply to this Thread

    Do I really need a Navien CH-240? (37 Posts)

  • Ruckus Ruckus @ 6:58 PM
    Contact this user

    Do I really need a Navien CH-240?

    Hi guys,

    Just looking for some input. I'm going to replace my old boiler and water heater soon. The plumber wants to put in a Navien CH-240. Now I'm no expert but I did the heat loss calculation for my house and came back with about 105,000 BTU for a standard boiler. I know the Navien is a Combi but the CH-240 is 199,000 BTU. Isn't that overkill? My house has one zone with 10 hot water radiators about 4ft each average. I ask the plumber to do the setup so I can add another zone for when I refinish the basement. But the basement is only about 500sf. Is the CH-240 a good idea or should I ask him to go with the CH-180? Thanks in advance
  • Chris Chris @ 7:07 PM
    Contact this user

    No

    You really need a CH240-ASME that is piped and installed correctly. Also need to measure the sqft of edr of the rads to calculate the proper heating curve.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • icesailor icesailor @ 9:30 AM
    Contact this user

    Potable domestic HW:

    The Potable domestic hot water load is far greater than most residential heating load, every time you use it.
    Ignore sizing at your peril and your customer's annoyance.
  • Dabbler Dabbler @ 9:34 AM
    Contact this user

    Buy a boiler

    Why don't you put in a real boiler and an indirect, something that is easy to clean, easy to service and can run at 95% or better for your cast iron radiation. Navien is a glorified water heater which has to be ordered "special" for the ASME rating.
  • bob eck bob eck @ 9:14 AM
    Contact this user

    Navien?

    Take a look at using a Triangle Tube Prestige Excellence or Prestige Solo with their Smart stainless steel indirect water heater. www.triangletube.com These units are a designed as a boiler and they also make domestic hot water. Triangle Tube now has a boiler / water heater called the Challenger. This unit will do both heating a domestic hot water. Get a professional heating contractor and ask for a bid on one of these boilers. You contractor thru Triangle Tube they can offer you a 5 or 10 year parts and labor warranty that would cover you for up to 10 years for any repair on the boiler including parts and labor. This warranty does not cover normal yearly maintenance costs.
  • Skull Skull @ 12:31 AM
    Contact this user

    navien sucks

    After 2 years of problems with my Navien tank less combi they installed a new one and guess what? I can't even get a tub full of hot water for a bath. It is the biggest piece of shit i have ever encountered in my life. What a rip off.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 9:24 AM
    Contact this user

    Sucks:

    The Combi may or may not suck. It may have been installed by a :Heater" than has no idea of how much energy it takes to heat potable water as opposed to heating water. It may need a flow restricter through the cold water. It probably isn't installed according to the manufacturers instructions.
    The next model up, more expensive, is probably what you needed. Now you need a storage tank.
    Many turn on a bath tub to "Hot and then, when the tub is almost full, they turn on some cold to cool the water down. They need to set the water fill temperature to what they will want and be adding cold water as they fill. I have found that you can fill a bath tub with tempered water but NOT with hot only. I bought a new Volvo wagon in 1987, a 240DL. It was a nice car but a gutless wonder, It would go 70 MPH but it took all day to get there. Entering a limited access highway was always interesting while getting up to speed. If I was alone, it was almost acceptable. With someone else in the car, it was unbearable and dangerous if someone wasn't going to let you in and you couldn't take a running start.
    It is the same as your Navien
  • Skull Skull @ 11:50 AM
    Contact this user

    21st century dud

    I appreciate the Volvo analogy and I was told today by the local supplier that I need a water tank for my "tankless system" so you're right about that. If my tankless system needs a tank then why buy a tankless system? I feel like I've fallen through a worm hole or a crack in the space time continuum. This seems typical of these so called "green" products. They turn out to be inefficient and not as reliable as proven technology. I shouldn't have to check and see what is using hot water before I bathe, that is a step backwards. Its 2013 not 1913. I thought we'd be like the Jetsons but it turns out its more like Green Acres.

    Bottom line, DO NOT BUY A NAVIEN, you will regret it. And if you're recommending them to your customers don't be surprised if you get sued.
  • Chris Chris @ 7:35 PM
    Contact this user

    Skull

    Tankless Water Heaters work fine as long as they are sized and installed properly. Sounds like you issue has more to do with it not being sized correctly vs it being an inferior product. I've sold hundreds of tankless heaters and they work fine.

    The heater will product the gpm based on it's btu/hr output and your temp rise. May I ask who sized the unit?
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    This post was edited by an admin on March 7, 2013 7:41 PM.
  • Skull Skull @ 12:00 PM
    Contact this user

    sizing

    My plumber sized my unit.  In addition to hot water issues it has sprung a
    leak internally more than once. I have seen a lot of people with issues with the
    Navien on line, its not just me. I've sent three emails to Navien on
    their website and nothing. I have zero confidence in this product and manufacturer.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 2:19 PM
    Contact this user

    sprung a leak

    Do you know the pH and chloride level of your water?
  • Chris Chris @ 2:35 PM
    Contact this user

    Your Plumber

    Ok then. So, your plumber sized the unit and it doesn't supply enough hot
    water to meet your demand. Don't see that as a Navien issue. I see that
    as your plumbers issue. He sized it, he is responsible not the manufacturer.

    What model Navien? You say tub. Let's define tub. I think of a tub as your
    basic standard 60", 14-16" deep being filled with a traditional tub spout. Is
    this your tub or are we talking about a Whirlpool/Air tub with a nice fixture
    that is delivering 7gpm plus out the spout?

    Does the unit provide hot water when taking a shower? When I showed, I
    mean a standard shower head not a human car wash.

    As for the leaks, where specifically and as SWEI has pointed out what's
    The PH and chlorides?

    See all these things your "Plumber" is responsible for. In your email to Navien did
    you provide all the pertinent information or did you just rant like you have been here?

    Not busting your chops trying to help.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Skull Skull @ 3:26 PM
    Contact this user

    cold shower

    Could it be a poor installation by the plumber? Anything is possible I guess but this morning my wife ran out of hot water while showering with no other demand on the system. I checked it myself and after opening the valve all the way I only got barely warm water. I checked it again after several hours with the same result so I would say sizing schmizing, its a piece of shit. Call  it ranting if you need to, I have the feeling you have reason for protecting the brand.

    To answer your questions its a CH 240. We have a standard size tub, no whirlpool and a typical Moen shower head that could never be mistaken for a car wash. The leaks in the original unit were inside the unit, o rings as I recall. If you're asking about the PH of the town water its about 7, I don't know about the chlorides but the town has exceptional water quality.

    I gave Navien all the information they required including serial number and name and phone number of my plumber. I received an email back yesterday that said "sorry we ignored you" (paraphrasing) and that was it.

    From the reviews I've seen online the majority are negative. I don't believe everything I see online but its either true or one hell of a good conspiracy.
  • gennady gennady @ 4:28 PM
    Contact this user

    Navien

    I personally do not like navien products, but to be fair, all this sounds as an installation and design problem rather than navien problem.
    Gennady Tsakh

    Absolute Mechanical Co. Inc.
    www.AbsoluteMechanicalCoInc.com
    This post was edited by an admin on March 16, 2013 4:30 PM.
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 9:00 AM
    Contact this user

    Works fine in our house

    We run one now in our 3850 sq ft home. Runs three showers and full heat on freezing days with no issues. Someone either installed yours wrong if the unit is having issues. This thing does not get installed like a normal boiler. You need to do a primary 1" loop with feeds to the pumps to push from the pump from the supply to your zones then return to the loop. The pumps do not go on the returns. For the hot water, it is pretty simple, most of the complexities for that are worked out in the unit itself. Could be your K factor is not set correctly either on your control panel. Could be the dip switches are setup wrong as well.
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 4:12 PM
    Contact this user

    Other advice

    You have the option to tune all sorts of parameters on your control panel if you look. Try raising the domestic hot water temp from the standard 120 degree setting to possibly 130 or so. The closed loop heating defaults to 160. You can bump that up as well to 170, 180 as an option.

    This is a cool little unit. You can tune it exactly to your needs and home heating requirements. Just have to be patient getting there.

    It must be installed correctly though. Do you have a picture of the installation?

    Gas pressure must be enough to satisfy this thing. Lots of variables. This is a very advanced system.
  • Chris Chris @ 5:39 PM
    Contact this user

    Skull

    Sorry but went to Germany for a week. I have no feelings pro or con concerning the Navien brand. I do know that there is always a reason why something does not live up to expectation. Normally it is not the equipment's fault but rather the sizing and the installation. Have you checked the balancing spool in that Moen valve to make sure it's not the cause?

    I'd love to see the piping on this unit. I'm one of those that would never install or recommend a product that isn't ASME or "H" stamped as a boiler which sounds like what you have installed. Remember you only get what you pay for.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 11:35 AM
    Contact this user

    It is a real "H" Stamped ASME boiler

    It is officially a boiler, albeit a very different one. Requires tweaking to get it going right.
  • heatpro02920 heatpro02920 @ 2:58 PM
    Contact this user

    Most equipment is going to have some hiccups

    and Navian has definitely had their share and judging by the reviews and supply house chatter, they don't do very well taking care of the customers or the contractors, this is where I have a problem..  When the GBs first came out there was a couple faults that needed to be dealt with, but BUDERUS did just that, dealt with them and they didnt happen twice....   It seems a few of these newer' companies don't have the CS Quality on the other side of the line to make up for a few problems...

    That being said that navian is no better than a tankless water heater, the control seems shatty, the combi 240 unit with the H stamp weighs around 80lbs where a TT combi has half the btu's and weighs almost 200lbs!!! Even the non combi TT weighs 140lbs..   You get what you pay for and it works out that way, you pay {not real numbers} $2000 for a boiler that last 5 years or $8000 for a boiler that lasts 20, its the same thing except less aggrivation and a better product for the life of the system...
    Also, everything is fixable, you just need the rite guy behind the wrench...
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 4:01 PM
    Contact this user

    Your facts are not accurate

    The unit weighs over 110 lbs. It costs about the same as the Triangle Tube combi, but is a much better quality build than the challenger. The output is higher, parts are stainless and hot water supply is superior. The controls are very nicely built. Customer service has been excellent for support as well. Warranty is 5 years on everything and 10 years for heat exchanger. Our experience has been much different, that is all I can go by. There is nothing low quality at all about this unit. But granted, it is different than the rest of the pack for sure.

    Have you ever done one?
  • heatpro02920 heatpro02920 @ 5:14 PM
    Contact this user

    Im glad you are having good luck with them

    how many have you put in? I admittingly have not personally installed any nor would I, I was comparing the weight of the TT Solo and excellence units, not the challengers I have zero experience with the challenger units..

    I checked the weight on their website is says 84lbs for the 240 with h stamp http://www.navienamerica.com/Product/Page1/Details/CH-240ASME?Category=CH-ASME%20Series

    I have worked on the navian units, a 240asme we did needed a board, then a week later a 3 way valve it has since worked but they waited 5 days for parts and we expedited them another unit my tech went to a service call that had an overheated heat exchanger I told him to take it apart and clean it, he did and said it wasnt really dirty put it back together and the same code, he thermal imaged it and got the surface temp, then called tech support, they told him he had to wait 40 minutes to fire it back up and call them back, he explained he already did that and they said well do it again, so he called me I said well wait and then call back he did and they had no answers for what was wrong, we ended up changing that unit out, the cusotmer actually bought a new unit and had us hand it, I think they swapped it in the box and returned it to be honest with you, but that has nothing to do with me... My tech has 15 years experience and I trust he tested what I would have tested and he told me after that call he hated Navian, lol... I have heard this from many other contractors too..

    I can respect the unit needs some caressing to get rite, but that shouldnt take time, you should have it up and running in an hour after its piped, not going back to tune and tweak the system, that costs us money and customers want their system in and done, they dont want to hear "we may need to tweak it" lol...

    To me equipment like navian, trinity, takagi, GE geosprings, ect are not worth the gamble, not for the contractor or the customer, I use the same equipment and only change after something has been proven and it has served me well, I have learned the hard way enough times to know that being warey is safe... If after reading the reviews, seeing the equipment and bad cs for myself, and hearing the horror stories why would I put myself and customers at risk... Go to the reviews there are at least 3 people that state their unit arrived doa, and I heard from the supply house that it happens once and a while, I have NEVER gotten a unit DOA from and of the companies I deal with all the time Buderus, TT, Rinnai, Water Furnace, or Weil McLain, ect....

    As far as pricing Im not sure about anyone else but the navi is over $2000 cheaper than a tt prestige with similar outputs...

    And as far is it being "different form the pack" its not really that different, as long as you are comparing it to a tankless water heater, because that is basically what it is, dual rectangle stacked heat exchanger with a blow down burner, only differences is they jammed a circulator and dhw exchanger in there... it is a tankless water heater not a boiler..
    and tankless water heater are made to be ran a few hours a day, not constantly.. its just a flash heater not a boiler...

    Another thing to check is efficiency, that unit dives when it gets warm returns, you need at least a 50* delta to get any type of efficiency, Rinnai units are the same way, thats why they are water heaters not recirculating boilers...
    This post was edited by an admin on March 19, 2013 5:30 PM.
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 9:25 AM
    Contact this user

    Always good to have options though

    You seem to be firm on your opinion, and that is fine. Stick with what you know.

    But, at the end of the day, a homeowner with a cast iron 80% efficiency boiler budget, can get themselves into a pretty nice modulating condensing boiler.

    It is less than half the price as the TT Prestige Trimax Excellence and significantly outperforms it in both heat and domestic pressure and flow. Basically one of the only combis out there that can satisfy a large home with multiple bathrooms pretty well in a single small unit without the need for an indirect tank expense.

    As far as tweaking goes, settings like on the control board. Well Pump, domestic hot water temp, main loop temp, etc to get things going to desired outputs. You also have a primary loop with monoflows to do as well. We happen to live in the same town as their training and support center, which is really convenient to have close by. Hence, a lot of experienced folks to lean on that do a whole bunch of these units in the direct area for practical advice, plus easy access to quick parts.

    People that do a lot of these units and have experience with the unit swear by them. You are correct, this is not a traditional boiler. But it not a flimsy water heater either. The parts appear to have been beefed up to withstand the thermal load conditions, plus is stainless.

    You are correct though, they don't have the long-standing brand history as others. You may not want to be so quick to dismiss it though. I am more curious to see what their next generation unit may look like and how the competition will build their lower cost combi options. Heck to use a car analogy, Hyundai was a joke previously but look at them now. Ignore your competition at your own peril. For my own sake, since I have a vested interest with now owning one, I hope that is true! So I am biased as well, since I now own one.

    I will keep you posted with updates. You often seem to hear the negatives but rarely do people ever say positive things. This unit can do the job just fine. Wanted to chime in on a different take on things, that is all. Good luck with your future installs.
  • heatpro02920 heatpro02920 @ 11:26 AM
    Contact this user

    Thats the thing.

    I understand they are cost effective for a single unit that can do DHW and heat, but the customer that buys an 85% cast iron boiler will most likely have that boiler for 30 years, and in that 30 years, may not change as much as an ingnitor!!!!! You will IN NO WAY see 30 years out of one of these units, making the 5% energy savings not only a wash but a loss... A tankless heater for DHW makes sense because they last 15-25 years {when only asked to work for dhw, not heat, these units do not like low deltas}, and they are replacing a tank that will most likely only last 6 years, so it makes sense. But to use one for heating with a much longer duty cycles, is going to make short work of the units... I know you think it is beefed up but the weights don't lie, 84 lbs and a rinnai is around 70lbs, the navian includes a circ and plate exchanger that must weigh all of 15 lbs so they are not really built "beefier", and I know ss is the go to metal, but it has had its problems that is for sure, I honestly prefer brass copper and aluminum, but stainless has also come a long way, and it is no doubt the future {hence my switch from gb to in the last couple months}, but that doens't take away the fact that the gbs have worked for decades and are still a nice unit...

    I appreciate the fact that you own one of these units, and there has to be some people out there having good luck with them {hopefully and most likely you will be one of them} but you can not ignore the fact that there are a lot of unhappy customers, and from your point of view thats not a huge deal, you only invested $2000 into 1 unit, but a company like me that installs 50 mod cons before September would be out of business if them units started breaking after 6 months or worse never ran rite from day one....

    So I mean no offence and I am just stating what I know, but when I look inside the Navian, I see a Tankless water heater {not made as well as a RU98, I know they say stainless but I will take the Rinnai HE over it any day of the week} with a circulator and a plate exchanger, I actually have done this for trailer homes.

    And it honestly is a better option and cheaper, get a ru98 rinnai, with a brazed plate exchanger and use bronze or ss circs, run the rinnai low pressure and the opposite side of the pe dhw pressure, then run a 3 way zone valve to redirect the return until the delta rises above 50*, they work well, but the Rinnai tends to last about 8 years in this configuration... I don't see navian going much longer if that long....

    But anyway, I wish you good luck with your unit, and if you flush it and keep it maintained Im sure you will get your moneys worth, but until you really see the unit has stood the test of time, and has saved and made people money, it may not be a good idea to swear by them.

    You seem like a very smart consumer but I have been around this business for years{decades}, and companies like Navian scare me to death... I price a job with a Rinnai unit for dhw and a TT solo for heat at {not real prices just for example} $10,000, give the same customer a price of $5000 for a 85% unit and Tankless. Now another contractor comes in and says $5000 for a high efficiency unit, the customer says wow that 1/2 of what EBD wanted and one unit does it all we will go with him.... 9 months later, they have no heat, the contractor comes over and calls tech support to find out they aren't much help and are looking for anyway they can to get out of paying for the repair, going so far as to request a water test!!! The customer gets the repair but goes 5 days with electric heaters, a few months later the same thing happens, now the customer starts thinking "what about when the warranty is up they are already fighting us". They call me to come and look at it...

    The install is done rite, but the unit is working too hard, the house is old and drafty while it has no where near a 199K btu load, that navian is working non stop, and here lies the problem, the unit isn't working past its capacity but it is working more than it is designed to work, a triangle tube prestige is designed to work 24 hours a day when needed and will when properly sized on a design day. But a tankless water heater is designed to work a few hours a day, not 15-24 hours a day... This customer also noticed his bill was higher than it was with his old boiler, so I stuck my efficiency tester in and seen 83% max, so I shut the unit down, fed in some cold water and called in one of their cold zones, the efficiency went up but NEVER hit anywhere near 91%...

    I appreciate this conversation Homewoner1, and I am thankful you understand where I am coming from, hopefully this will help some customers make the rite decisions when it comes down to pull the trigger on a new unit... And I'm not saying navian has no place in the market but advertising 199K btus of heating and DHW to maintain new england or colder climate area homes for the long term with a tankless water heater is not one of them... Now in florida where they only use a small amount of heat a short number of days per year, that sounds fine to me.....

    Also homeowner the install isnt really that different than others, primary secondaries are pretty standard now a days...
    This post was edited by an admin on March 20, 2013 11:42 AM.
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 7:40 AM
    Contact this user

    Heating load is less than Domestic Water

    That is the thing though. The heat loss is around 80 to 90 KBTU. A lot of time was spent ensuring it was correct. The house is well insulated and not drafty. This was verified doing a door test and full professional heat loss analysis using Wrightsoft.

    The unit is capable of 199 KBTU output but that is purely for hot water needs to maintain desired pressure.

    The heating needs are less than half of that. With the outdoor sensor and lower heat requirements, the unit modulates at a much lower fire rate and does not run all the time for heating needs. In this design, it appears optimal for the intended usage of this unit. This unit is not getting hit with full loads all the time. The only time it really does fire up in full is for domestic hot water calls, as one would expect.

    In short, this unit is working safely under its design capacity in this installation. This is ideal. I agree though, in a larger heat loss situation, we would have gone a different direction.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 10:45 AM
    Contact this user

    80 to 90 KBTU

    is quite a large heating load.  The 20k minimum firing rate of the the CH-240 ASME makes a relatively good match, but what kind of efficiency does the unit achieve at low firing rates?  I'm not familiar enough with the differences between AFUE and CAFUE to infer anything from those.
  • heatpro02920 heatpro02920 @ 7:51 PM
    Contact this user

    Homeowner

    next time you have a tech there with a combustion analyzer have him do a eff. test at low fire, you will be appalled.... Your 91% boiler is going to shock you with the numbers it puts out... The same thing happens to rinnai tankless units, when they get warm water on the inlet side, the delta drops to 20 degrees and causes all kinds of havok... LP units soot up after a while, eff. plummets to the basement fast and stays there, they don't condense, ect...
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 9:16 AM
    Contact this user

    Yes, I was Shocked, but in a Very Good Way

    Yes, the real efficiency observations are shocking, but that was a good thing for our Navien Combi Boiler.

    This one is a natural gas unit, so I assume sooting will not occur like Propane?

    This is based on actual gas usage numbers. The previous oil bill the year prior when running our previous 85% efficient cast iron oil boiler was $762 for the same month and the month had an average temperature of 29 degrees. This was a cast iron boiler that also provided hot water. It was well maintained and tuned as best as it could be for the home.

    When running the Navien, the gas bill came in at $88, or 68 terms of usage this year for the same month with an average temperature indicated on the bill to be 26 degrees, which was colder. This is also a boiler that is a combi that provides hot water.

    These newer condensing and modulating boilers can bring some amazing results, as is the case with this Navien as well. In our wildest dreams, we never expected our bills to be this low for such a large home.

    As far as efficiency goes, real-usage numbers speak volumes here. These modulating and condensing boilers appear to be the future. This particular unit appears to be the only one on the market at this point that is sized correctly for a larger home as a inexpensive combi unit. We are fans of simplicity with older cast iron designs but at these types of savings, we wouldn't go any other way. This is a high-efficiency and effective unit at a competitive price to that of traditional cast iron boiler installations. Only wish that the American manufacturers would start making ones to compete. Only one that we could find in our research was Triangle Tube but that was not built with enough robust output to meet our demands. Other than that we were looking at indirect options which inflated the price dramatically.

    At the end of the day, this modulating and condensing combination technology is winning us over by its savings thus far.

    I feel bad for "Oil" sales guys these days.
  • Chris Chris @ 12:37 PM
    Contact this user

    Nice

    68 Therms = 6,800,000 btu/hr

    672.00 /3.75 = 179 Gallons of Oil

    139,000 btu/hr in a gallon of oil x 179 = 24,881,000 Btu/hr

    6,800,00/24,881,000 = 83% Fuel Savings

    Honestly doesn't surprise me. Been around long enough and seen long enough that when over sized equipment is changed out to the proper size along with the added equipment efficiency these are the end result.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • TonyS TonyS @ 11:58 PM
    Contact this user

    I have very little trouble

    with Navien. I installed my first CH model last year and so far it has worked fine. It was a 2 zone system with a solar prefeed on the domestic.
    I have a dozen or so Navien water heaters in the field including one in my own house for over 4 years.
    I always include a constant pressure device on the well systems and I always oversize my gas piping. Always check for chlorides especially if there is a water softener in line.
    Many softeners are incorrectly piped for backwash or have insufficient pressure to lift the bed during backwash and will leave residue salt in the bed.
    To be fair, boilers have it quite easy when it comes to water quality! How hard is it to maintain a closed loop system? Tankless water heaters have to deal with a whole host of different raw water situations and thousands of gallons of this water introduced yearly. Water heater installers have to have several skill sets to choose and install the proper unit and yet it is easier to buy a tankless water heater than it is a boiler.
  • heatpro02920 heatpro02920 @ 10:21 AM
    Contact this user

    Navian HO1

    Are you saying your bill went from $762 to $88 by changing from an 85% unit to a 91% unit?!?!?!?!?!?

    That means your ROI is less than a year, to pay for the entire boiler a few times... If this is the truth, you could by a new boiler every every time it breaks and just toss that piece of crap out...lol...

    I have houses with geothermal systems that don't do 1/2 that well, people that spend $40K for the install and only see $450 of savings in a cold month!!! You are seeing almost $700 of savings after buying a 91% tankless combi unit?? I hate to sound like I'm doubting you, but I have to think it is blatantly apparent at this point, lol...

    If you are happy with your navian, that is great, obviously some people have to be happy with them, otherwise they would be out of business by now {time tends to show the good from bad}.. But be careful with statements like that, because someone may go out and buy one of them units and then see they save much less {500% less, lol}...

    HO1 I have to think you work for navian or are some how affiliated with them, I talk fondly of the equipment I sell and install, so I don't blame you, but saving 90% by installing a 91% tankless combi, that is just silly...

    I just priced a job, a women swapping from 2 oil fired furnaces and a direct fired DHWH, to 2 hydro airs with a TT 110 and a condensing tankless, they are paying around $4400 a season for heat and HW, I told them to expect to cut that in half which will still take them over 10 years to pay for the new system... I hope they don't read this post and see they could have spent 1/10th the cost and paid for the system in a couple years...

    HO1 please forgive me for being so skeptical, but your posts read like a television infomercial.... Just waiting for the "set it and forget it" line to pop up...

    "When running the Navien, the gas bill came in at $88, or 68 terms of usage this year for the same month with an average temperature indicated on the bill to be 26 degrees, which was colder. This is also a boiler that is a combi that provides hot water.

    These newer condensing and modulating boilers can bring some amazing results, as is the case with this Navien as well. In our wildest dreams, we never expected our bills to be this low for such a large home."

    Is your real name Ron Popeil , Im just kidding with you, lol... Ronco would never stand behind Navian, he has a Showtime Magic Rotisserie in each room and one with a hot water coil for his DHW...
    This post was edited by an admin on April 12, 2013 10:29 AM.
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 11:27 AM
    Contact this user

    Totally Different Technologies

    I am sure any of the high efficiency Modulating Condensing boilers would have delivered the same results in our circumstances This one just happens to do hot water as well.

    No, not affiliated with the brand, just had tons of people telling us this was not possible and not to do it with a combi.

    This unit appears to have a skewed rating because it does hot water and heating all in one. It appears to be more efficient on one than the other. You would probably know more about that then us though.

    The old boiler was an over-sized unit that was turning on and off quickly when heating the home and also did hot water. So this thing was running inefficiently since it was not sized to the house and had to be on all the time to maintain hot water needs, even though it was well maintained and tuned as best as possible. To your point, the savings realized here are an extreme example probably not very typical. That old boiler could not modulate down like the new ones now can. Plus, was heating water 24x7.
  • Sofia Sofia @ 10:21 AM
    Contact this user

    Unhappy with Navien Boiler

    We have Navien (CH-240) boiler installed in our house a year ago after hurricane Sandy. Our plumber recommended this boiler as one of the best and charged almost $5,000 for installation. Now, we have 63 degrees temperature in our house. We call several plumbers and they confirmed that the boiler is working fine. The problem is that Navien (240) boiler can not produce enough heat if outside temperature less than 25 - 29 F degrees during the cold winter. We are very unhappy with his boiler. We are looking for traditional american boiler to replace our new Navien combi.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 10:46 AM
    Contact this user

    Please start a new thread

    With your CH-240 issues.  Include pictures of the piping, pump(s), and zone valves if you have those.
  • GeeMan GeeMan @ 11:24 PM
    Contact this user

    Unhappy With Navien Boiler

    Sofia, I am in Sandy recovery as well. Lost my oil boiler and installed a Navien in my reconstructed home. I was so happy with it that I recently installed a second Navien CH 240 in another house I own. I have been having the same issue in this second, larger house. Couldn't satisfy the thermostat and the unit ran constantly. It's possible that you need to adjust the dip switches in the unit. While many plumbing contractors can install the unit, there are some nuances that only a mechanic truly familiar with Navien can address. I made these adjustments and it appears that I may have solved the problem.
    I have had the initial unit since January of 2013 (went over 2 months without heat or hot water after the storm). It's worked very well. Don't give up, and no, I don't work for the company. Just sharing good info and an honest experience. Had to do some tweeking, it's newer technology and there are some growing pains adjusting to a new system.
  • HomeOwner1 HomeOwner1 @ 2:19 PM
    Contact this user

    Or could be the K-Curve Setting

    If you have the outside temp sensor option installed, then your outside K Curve setting may be set to aggressively for energy efficiency.

    Mine is set at 1.8 in my home and kept my home very toasty warm. The setting is on the little white digital control panel hooked up to the unit. Play around with the setting a bit to see what works for you best.

    The purpose of that setting is to optimize your home so that on a slightly warmer day when there is a call for heat you get an optimized slow burn at a lower loop temp. Rather then a quick on and off set of full fires that uses up more fuel. If yours is set incorrectly, your home may not heat up on the cold days due to the settings not permitting it to fully fire up.

    Hope this helps.
  • GeeMan GeeMan @ 11:29 PM
    Contact this user

    Unhappy With Navien Boiler

    Sofia, I am in Sandy recovery as well. Lost my oil boiler and installed a Navien in my reconstructed home. I was so happy with it that I recently installed a second Navien CH 240 in another house I own. I have been having the same issue in this second, larger house. Couldn't satisfy the thermostat and the unit ran constantly. It's possible that you need to adjust the dip switches in the unit. While many plumbing contractors can install the unit, there are some nuances that only a mechanic truly familiar with Navien can address. I made these adjustments and it appears that I may have solved the problem.
    I have had the initial unit since January of 2013 (went over 2 months without heat or hot water after the storm). It's worked very well. Don't give up, and no, I don't work for the company. Just sharing good info and an honest experience. Had to do some tweeking, it's newer technology and there are some growing pains adjusting to a new system.
  • jeffinct jeffinct @ 1:30 PM
    Contact this user

    Navien CH240 Combi Unit

    Do not even consider this unit. I have had mine for 2 years and it has constant error codes. Replaced circuit board, sensors, re-plumbed to make more efficient and it is still a piece of junk. Now it is rattling and needs service again. It has had to be repaired at least 6 times since it was installed - DO NOT BUY!!
  •  
Post a Reply to this Thread