Heating Help

Steam Heat Not Reaching certain areas in old building

I am in a building built in 1856 that uses steam heat for most areas...The building has 4 floors and there are 2 radiators that are ice cold after heat has been running, while there are 15+ radiators throughout the building that get scorching hot....the building is 4 floors, and the radiaitors in question are on the 3rd floor, while others in same room work fine...I changed the air valves and still nothing...
Could this be an issue with the 1 and only trap that is on this system?(located right above the return tank)? Some radiators are a 1 pipe, and others are a 2 pipe....Not too sure what is original

Also, can anyone recommend the best epoxy to patch up pinhole sized leaks...

thank you

Old city hall

The mixture of 1-pipe and 2-pipe radiators in a system makes diagnosis a bit more difficult, but not impossible. Where is this building? Can you post some pictures of the boiler piping and radiators?
The aim is to restore the system to it's original state of operation, which I am sure was even, quiet, economical, and comfortable.
What pressure is presently set on the pressuretrol, and is the gauge working? What fuel is being used?--NBC

Start tracing pipes...

Assuming that the vents really aren't working.  And assuming that their valves are fully open.  You need to find out how these two radiators are fed (I presume, since they have vents, that they are piped as one pipe) and how far along whatever distribution lines -- risers, mains, what have you -- you do have heat.  Until you do that, it's going to be very hard to figure out the problem.

More likely than not a sag or sags -- but until we know how the steam is supposed to get there...

Nicholas...

I can't upload pictures to this work computer, however, the system is ran off oil...The building is located in RI...I had someone come last week to take a look and he said that the steam trap was clogged and that may be the problem, however, these same 2 radiators were hot the first time I started the heat this yr, and only that first day did they get hot...
These 2 radiators in question are a 2 pipe...
It almost seems that through time in this building they switched some to Air Vent Systems, or Hot water, but I am not too familiar with this setup hence the posts in the forum....
Each morning it sounds like 100 hammers hitting pipes throughout the whole building.....

Hope this info can help a little more...

Thanks

Jamie..

Thanks for the reply Jamie..I have traced the pipes and the radiators in the same location on the 2nd and 1st floor directly below the ones in question, and they are hot to the touch...
These 2 have worked for one day  since I have been here, and that was last year on the first initial day that heat was put on for the season....Every other day since then they have not...

Water trap

If the radiators worked once and then stopped, I think that steam got into the radiators and then condensed and pooled to prevent anymore steam from entering the radiator.
Are the two radiators in question tilted so that any water in them can return back down the pipe? 
Are there any reducers installed on the piping and are they concentric or eccentric?
Is there a long horizontal run in between the radiator and the steam riser?  Is it tilted to let the condensate drain back to the riser?

Larry

Larry...When I look at both they seem to be just level with no tilt to them...However, these are over 100 yrs old and they have worked in the past..This has just been an issue for the past 3 yrs or so...The open close valve on the radiator on the left side of the room is on the left side of the unit, and the one on the right side of the room is on the right side and both have the same looking connection on the opposite side but without the valve...
No reducers to my knowledge on the piping
If they have condensed and pooled, what is the cure for that if any?...
Forgive me if I do not seem too savy when it somes to this matter....

Use a level not an eyeball.

To paraphrase a president or two,  Trust but verify.  In my experience eyeballs work if the background is level.  Being that the building in 156 years old, I would rather use a level on the radiator and the piping.
Remember that the air has to leave before the steam can enter.  When the system is running, does the piping going to the radiator valves get warm?  If so, steam is trying to get in.  Is there an air vent on the radiator?  If so, can you open it and does air come out?  If the air comes out, that means steam is coming in.  If no air is coming out, then no steam is coming in.  Why is the steam not coming in?

Why doesn't the air normally leave?  Excess steam pressure, bad vent bad trap, plugged line or oriface.  What is the system pressure at the boiler?  I hope it is less than 2 psi.

Ah... two pipe?

As Larry C noted, if they worked once and then not again, the most likely problem is that condensate got in there somewhere -- and can't get out again.

If they really are two pipe, the connection opposite to the valve should not be a plain elbow (in most cases -- there are exceptions) but should look a litte odd.  It is more than likely that it is a trap of some kind.  These have been known to fail shut, which will shut off the heat to the radiator (steam can't get in if the air can't get out).  If you could post a picture of them, it would be helpful.

But that is not the only possibility.  Any sag or dip in the pipes leading too or from the radiators may do it too; it is amazing how little it takes.

Your comment to NBC that every morning it sounds like the Anvil Chorus also suggests that you have trapped water in the pipes (that sound is water hammer) -- and probably not just in this instance.

So what's to do?  It will take some work on your part -- but you need to check all the lines you can find.  Every single line needs to be able to drain freely, in one direction or the other, back to a steam main or a dry or wet return.  Verticals are no problem, of course -- but any line which is more or less horizontal must be pitched to drain, and the only way to be sure of that is with a level.  The Mark I eyeball is a wonderful thing, but it isn't good enough.  Anything which isn't pitched -- whether you think it is causing a problem or not -- needs to be adjusted so it is pitched.  Be especially careful of sags in longer runs.

Second, check the pressure at which your boiler cuts out; it should be less than 2 psi.

Third, check the water level in the boiler.  There may be a mark on the boiler to show where it should be.  You might even get lucky and have the manual.  But absent that, you won't go far wrong if the water level is about in the middle of the sight glass.

Fourth, I get the impression from your post that this is not related to a change in the boiler; if it is, please tell us what was done...

We'll figure it out.

Jamie...

Thanks for the reply...
I took your suggestion and took a level to both radiators and you are right..there is a slight pitch to them...also, the pipes underneath both radiators are ice cold, however as I stated earlier, the radiators directly underneath the 2 in question on the 2nd and 1st floor are hot....
I flush the boiler every other day and the water level in the glass tube on the boiler is a little less than half after i do so and when running it fluctuates between a half and a quarter full....I opened a valve to a pipe right before the trap and gallons and gallons of water just came gushing out...However the return tank felt warm so the water is reaching it, but obviously not all of it.....
The PSI is at 10psi when running and when cut out it drops to about 6....
I just took the air valve off each one and tried building up pressure by putting my finger over the whole and heard air building up in one of the 2 radiators but it wasnt much at all ..Actually after i heard the gust of air I couldnt get any from it again.....
I will try to upload pics to my posts as soon as i find a wire for my work phone to do so.....

Thanks again

Pressure too high?

That water in the sight glass should not vary more than +/- 1/4", it it clean? Also high pressure makes all problems worse in steam systems. If the boiler is operating above 2psi that is a problem, what is the pressuretrol set to? give us the reading off the front tab and off the white wheel inside - The tab should be set to 0.5PSI and the wheel should be at 1. The picture below shows you what the inside of the pressuretrol looks like - careful the switch wires are carrying 24 or 120vac. It is possible the old pressure gauge is lying, you might want to add an auxiliary 0-3psi gauge so you can see exactly what the pressure is.

Bob

Reply to Bob C or anyone who can help....

Thanks for the reply Bob...The pressuretrol is set at...
DIFF-3psi
MAIN-12psi
These are the setting that they have been on since I've been here and who knows how long before that....The water in the tube is crystal clear and is now at the half way point....The pressure gauge goes to about 11psi when running and down to about 6psi when it cuts out....
The trap is getting replaced today...Hopefully with this getting replaced the problem will be fixed...
Is it possible that the radiators in question need to be bled?...If I loosen the union on the pipe will that drain any water that is in there and possibly fix the problem?

Why so high?

Assuming this boiler is only being used for heating it should not be running over 2PSI. Is there a chance the boiler was once used for another process as well as heating - bootleg still :)? Does that pressure gauge read zero when the system is cool? Also some old pressure gauges lie but you said the pressuretrol is set to 12PSi with a differential of 3PSI so it would be cycling between 9 and 12 PSI which is about what your seeing.

A lot of air valves on steam systems don't work right on pressures above a few PSI and some can be damaged by high pressure. Steam traps can be destroyed by high pressure also so I would dial that pressuretrol down to 1.5 to 2PSI for the cut out. There are some pressuretrols that are made for higher pressure and that may have to be replaced if it is a high pressure unit. When i had a pressuretrol on my boiler I kept the front tab set to 0.5PSI and the white wheel inside set to 1

Post some pictures of the pressuretrol.

Bob

Bleeding the radiators

The air vents on the radiators should release air from them so steam can go in and warm them up. Pressure above 2psi interferes with their operation, and can force water up into the returns to a point where it can be mixed with steam, producing the "anvil chorus". When the trap is replaced, then get the technician to reduce the pressure to 2 psi max. Consider putting on a 0-3 psi gauge so this maximum can be verified. If you really want comfort, then a 0-16 ounce vaporstat will have better control.
When first installed, the system would not have had a tank, but just a carefully piped gravity return, which works better, if you can retrofit it.--NBC

Oy...

Well, assuming your pressure gauge is even remotely correct, and the settings on the pressuretrol are somewhat correct, there's a whacking good chunk of your problem right there.  At 10 psi, the steam pressure will raise the condensate in the returns 20 feet.  The returns aren't supposed to have water in them.  Second, the pressure will have -- not might have, will have -- destroyed at least some of the vents and traps.  Third, it will keep condensate from returning to the boiler when the system is running.

And so on.

Turn it down.  2 psi max.  Then go around and check all your vents and traps, and replace the ones which are toast.

You mentioned somewhere in there something about a return tank; if the pressures are correct this shouldn't be necessary (nor should a pump, if you have one).  Can you clarify that?

Jamie

Thanks everyone for your replies....Jamie, it has a return tank and 2 pumps with one working...As mentioned in a previous post, these radiators in question worked one time since I got transfered to this building 2 years ago, and that was the first initial time I put the heat on last year....AFter that, they havent worked since...
The guy who retired from here that I replaced was the type to call techs for everything that went wrong, therefore had no knowledge of the system to pass on to me...  
There are a few radiators in the buiding that work but at times only half of them heat up so I have to bleed them out of sometimes around 3 gallons of water....
I hope to learn more about this system through all you guys helping and other resources ....
I can try to take some pictures and post them but I don't know if the work computer will allow me to do so.....

I think

your last post tells the whole story.Your problems are all related to condensate.

Paul48

So what do you suggest Paul48?

Three key words...

And Jamie said it first. TURN IT DOWN...

2 pounds with a 1/2 pound differential will make a WORLD of difference in comfort, and save energy...

All that will take is a screw driver. Get back to us with the results once you've done it.

ME

Sympathy for the Devil

You have my best wishes.
First thing I'd do
(after all the stuff these guys have already mentioned)
is to get the City to buy you some of Dan's books.
I've had to buy my own where I work.
(Honestly, I'm not sucking up, Dan.)
That information will help tremendously with what you are facing
if your duties now include operating an old boiler.

Second thing, if you took over from an old guy who didn't understand
what he was doing then no one else there probably does either.
You may have a free hand to do what you will learn needs to be done.

Watch out for the politics though. The Mayor and council
might suddenly decide they're boiler experts, especially if there are
a few problems as you try stuff.

Last, anything major you want to try, run it by these guys.

What a resource!

No

More to say, than that.I take it back.....Why would anyone put a trap just above the condensate tank?

trap above the tank

i would try to restore the system to its original configuration. in 1856, i am sure they neither had a tank, and pump, nor a need for one. how long would have the heating engineer [at that time] lasted if he were to say "that's just the way steam heat is-uneven, and noisy"-not too long!
i hope the powers that be will soon realize how fortunate they are in having a new building engineer who gives a damn, and unlike his predecessor will seek more information on the problems at hand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we look forward to continuing to help out with advice. where are you?--nbc

NBC

I am located in Rhode Island...We changed the trap yesterday and lowered the P.S.I. Down to about 2 and 2hrs after the fact the heat wasn't reaching areas that would normally be hot...I bled them and waited a little longer and building is at a comfortable temp but I am unable to check the 2 radiators in question at the moment as there is court in session in that room...
The pipes were so caked up with mud and sludge that there was no room for anything to get through....Is there an additive that anyone can recommend that I can add to help dilude all the sludge throught the pipes?
Paul48, I was just asking for suggestions on the issue you thought it may be...I wasn't the one who installed the trap....

Sorry

I know you are dealing with the cards you've been dealt. I figured you probably had nothing to do with the traps location.

Old system

I went to school in Middletown R.I. so I wonder if I might have seen this courthouse in the early 60's in Newport. Little would i have known at that time whether the judge was warm or cold!
You can always refer any of your superiors here for more information. Just ask him whether he would like things working properly, or maybe for some reason badly (we know about that as well )
When you say you bled the non-functioning rads, how did you do that?.--NBC

In your quote

"I opened a valve to a pipe right before the trap and gallons and gallons of water just came gushing out...However the return tank felt warm so the water is reaching it"

Where is this trap located? If it's on the inlet to the condensate tank, that's WRONG.

That's

what I read as well. I think the best thing you could do, is to do some studying about steam system designs. There are countless resources available online.Then take what you have learned and find things you believe are wrong. Then come back with what you found. Over the years that poor system has been bastardized by people that didn't know what they were doing, but little by little you can undo the damage.
And where are these pin-holes located that you want to patch?

Paul

Thanks Paul and everyone else for your replies...

Paul the pinholes were on a few pipes here in the basement but those are all set now....Maybe I am completly wrong or just too confusing so today my goal is to post pictures of the problem....After the trap was changed to a new one, and the P.S.I. was lowered to about 3, the  2 radiators in question still did not work...
If condensation/water has pooled in them would I have any luck by loosening the union and drain any water that may be resting in that area?....

diagram needed

can you make a diagram of the layout of the pipes in the basement, and indicate which radiators work, and which do not? would you say all the 1-pipe radiators are either working. or not working? or would it be all the radiators on a riser are working or not.
when we all see what is wrong here, we will probably whack our foreheads, and ask why we didn't think of that first! 3 psi is still a bit high. the "scorching hot radiator" is a sign to me that the pressure is too high.--nbc

nbc

Now, since the psi was adjusted down to 3, about 80 percent of the radiators in the building are still ice cold since running the system since about 6am....System is working the woorst I've seen it now....
When I go home for lunch i will get the wire for my phone to finally upload some pictures

getting worse before better

i can see that the pressure has been raised over the years to compensate for some fault in the system. normally the system would only need a few ounces of steam to warm all the radiators [i have 55] simultaneously. this has been burning a lot of extra fuel.
steamhead has seen a red flag in the condensate tank/trap. so pictures of that and the supply piping would be useful.
just remember that the system must have been even, comfortable, and quiet in 1856, when new. the task at hand is to undo any knuckleheadeness, and make it work as it once did.-nbc

I GOT IT!

Well after further frustration, I went downstairs and adjusted the pressuretrol up a couple P.S.I. and sure enough, every last heater in the building is now working...People in the building say that certain ones that are working now, havent worked in over 15 years,....
The system is now running at about 8 or 9 psi and is doing the best job i have seen it do in the 3 years that I have been at this building....
Is anything going to happen if I continually run it at this amount of PSI?

effects of high pressure on system

when the system is operating at pressure over3 psi, the vents and traps have problems working properly, and then become paperweights [or xmas tree ornaments when polished up]. to add further insult to injury, the fuel use goes up considerably. certainly the new trap has something to do with that, and maybe will not be such a problem after the pressure pushes it open for good.
i realize with the occupants of the building feeling cold, that there is not much time for diagnosis. if you are on duty at night, then you could find out where the bottleneck is in either air escaping or steam distribution.
maybe while the pressure is able to force the system into operation, feeling where the steam arrives first will give some clue as to what the problem is.
some fire departments have infra-red cameras, and if you can get one of them to take a video of the steam starting to rise into the system, you may see the hold up.
don't forget the pictures, as you will want a plan of action when they get the fuel bill!--nbc

Anyone agree

Main vent?

I agree... Main vent.

I suspect that he will come back later and say that those radiators that got hot are cold again. The reason he is hhaving to run that high a pressure is because his vents and possibly traps are bad, The steam, being at such a high pressure is compressing the air bubble into the radiators, giving a false sense of heat whenthey first heat up.

A system that was designed for gravity flow back to the steam source should not neeed more than 1.5 to 2 pounds of pressure, ever.

The fact he mentioned pin hole leaks is also a dead giveaway of venting issues. No vents = carbonic acid = pin hole leaks.

He's still got issues...

ME

Progress

is always a good thing!  Even if sometimes it seems to be taking a step backwards (and sometimes one has to step back before being able to march on forwards).

You shouldn't have to run your system at 8 to 9 psi -- but it if is running at that, my comment is not "don't do it" but "let's find out why it needs that much pressure".  And, in the meantime keep the customers satisfied -- they are the ones, after all, who pay the bills.

It is possible that at that pressure some of the widgets may be damaged, but most of them probably won't -- they can usually handle 10 psi -- but on the other hand, they may not work right, either.

It is clear to me that, over the years in your system, some things have failed and some have changed.  The condensate tank and pump must have been added at some point to compensate for something that wasn't right (quite possibly high pressure); our job now is to figure out what isn't right and what can be done about it.  This will probably take some time and patience on your part (it's easy for me to say, sitting in my chair here!) in looking and looking at the system and figuring it out.

Keep us posted!

STOP THE INSANITY

Steam heating is VERY simple. Steam goes out , condensates and runs back into boiler. Cold rads have to be checked as follows: Steam vent working? Turn off working? Rad sloped properly allowong condensate to return? PIPES SLOPED PROPERLY????? Steam traps allowing condensate to return fast enough? NOTEZ BIEN STUDENTS******* A pipe full of water , not steam,  feels hot.***** Rads beyond a water filled pipe do NOT get hot.****** A pipe full of pinholes means a pipe full of water ( at least some of the time) . ITS VERY SIMPLE ; IF YOU HAVE A WATER BLOCKAGE STEAM DOES NOT GO THRU!!!!!!! But guess what ? The pipe still feels hot.

Wait !!!!

Let me get a pen. Steam goes up.....condensate comes down...right Dutch?

Simple enough in principle...

but I've seen some pretty sharp guys look pretty baffled when faced with multiple problems and knuckleheads in a bigger system...

In

a building that old, and that big,just finding the decades of screwups can take a while. It should go faster, now that royalty has arrived though.

Insanity???

I don't think anything said to date is insane. If it were that simple, and that easy, ANYONE coiuld figure it out,

Every "opportunity" here at the Wall is viewed as a learning experience in my minds eye... Maybe not exactly applicable to this situation, but applicable to someones situation, some where.

Insanity is doing the same thing and getting the same reuslts, but expecting something different to happen...

ME

Jumping in late...

but theduke is absolutely right.  Has anyone suggested checking the main pipes in the basement for bows or sagging?  Have you heard any water hammering?  If you have water pooling in a main pipe, you'll hear what sounds like a sledgehammer banging the pipe.  This phenomenon is physically equivalent to thunder and lightning.  The added pressure you're using is helping get over the "bump" of water.

Read

his posts. It's a hundred and fifty year old building. He probably has  more problems than a sagging pipe. He's new to the building, and trying to get acquainted with the system. That's just one of the many things he'll have to check out.

PICTURES OF PIPE SETUP IN BOILER ROOM

If any more pictures are needed for more info just let me know and I will post them

1st pic is pipe setup going up to building from boiler room below the basement...

2nd pipe is the old trap that was just replaced...

3rd pic is boiler info....

Questions abour picture #1

You mentioned previously, that when you opened a valve upstream of the tank trap, you got gallons of water. 
1)  Is the valve you opened the ball valve with the red hose hanging off of it?
2)  What was the water coming out like?  Red and rusty, nasty black with chunks, clear, hot, cold, warm?  Was it under pressure or just dribbling out?  Did it bubble or pause to let air back into the hose?

Following that mess of pipes back up, there appears to be some sort of header with the leg on the right capped off, and a leg in the middle, open to atmosphere.
1)  Is that a correct description of the pipes?
2)  How many pipes come together before they exit and go into the trap and tank?

This picture appears to be the wet returns coming back from the radiators. 

 On second thought, that valve and hose assembly could be for flushing a filter. 
1)  Does it collect chunks? 
2)  If so, what do the chunks look like?

The trap that was just replaced

appears to be on the condensate line going into the tank. It does not belong there.

Not sure how the system was originally configured, but if it originally had a tank there (and it probably didn't), the Dead Men would have installed traps or water seals out in the system to keep the steam out of that line. A single trap at the tank inlet allows the returns to fill with steam, which wastes steam and kills the pressure differential between the steam side and the return side. I'll bet that's why you're having trouble getting certain rads hot.

This "master trap" is a sure sign that knuckleheads have touched that system. And you can't fix stupid! If you have a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" (and you should), you'll find Dan addressing this on pages 31, 163, 174,181 and 187.

We'll have to establish that these return lines were "wet", i.e. they had water standing in them all the time. If so, the proper solution is a "False Water Line", shown on page 31. We've built these and they work extremely well- and they have no moving parts!

PICTURES OF PIPE SETUP IN BOILER ROOM

If any more pictures are needed for more info just let me know and I will post them

1st pic is pipe setup going up to building from boiler room below the basement...

2nd pipe is the old trap that was just replaced...

3rd pic is boiler info....

Main vents

MAIN VENTS
Do you know where they are, what size they are, and do they work?

Do you have vents at the top of the vertical risers?

When you fire up the system, the areas that get hot first, do the vents whistle and release air for a long time? (long time is greater than 5 minutes)

traps

You stated that the one and only trap was that one located above the condensate tank. I believe you are mistaken. The two-pipe radiators should all have traps on them, and most are probably not functioning correctly.Meaning you are most likely blowing steam down the return, hence the need for a Steam trap just above your condensate tank, and your inability to get all the radiators to work at a decent pressure setting.

156 years and counting

Let's see some pictures of the radiators-one pipe, and two pipe, especially the valves and outlets. Also let's see the boiler supply piping, in order to track down the gremlin in the system.
Remember that these systems operate best, and most economically at a few ounces of pressure, and someone in the book-keeping department is going to compare the cost of heating with some other building, and think that it has cost too much, and it has at those pressures, even though it has been like that for a while.
Let's keep on with the diagnosis.--NBC

More pics of radiators, pipes, etc.....

Thanks again everyone....
To answer the questions,...
Before everything was changed, there were globs of black sludge coming from that long straight pipe behind the valve that had the hose on it in the old setup...since the switch to new pipes, a new and wider pipe replaced that one pipe, and every now and then, I will open it for 30 seconds or so when unit is running as a way to try and clean out any sludge or buildup in there...
Larry, no it wasn't the ball valve but the water would be redish for about 2 or 3 seconds, then eventually clear up as it was coming out and is hot water..
1st picture is picture of one of the radiators in same room still not getting hot....
2nd pic is the one on right's piping(1pipe)
3rd pic is of the one on the left sides piping
4th pic is the air valve used on both radiators
5th pic is the piping setup on both rear radiators in same room that work perfect....
6th pic is the new trap and new piping setup...(compare to older pics I sent last week)
7th pic is the rear of boiler piping
8th pic is of boiler...
If any more info is needed from me, just let me know..now that i have this picture thing figured out, it should go easier now.....
thanks again!

pictures...

sorry they didnt attach in the last post for some reason....

One pipe radiators...

Those are one pipe radiators shown in your second set of photos. It has a non electric thermostatic radiator control valves on it. It has an air vent, and I am not certain what its rating is, but I suspect it is probably abused to the point of needing replacement.

Also, on your returns, I see a LOT of check valves. Those are not normally seen in a simple one pipe distribution system (meaning the steam goes up the same pipe the condensate comes back down from) and is indications of another problem. One pipe came before 2 pipe, and interfacing these two types of systems must be done exactly, or problems will arise.

Quite honestly, and I know your budget is tight, but your city would be light years ahead to hire the likes of Frank WIlsey and Gordo Schweizer (All Steamed Up, Inc) to come out and assess your system and write a recommendations report.

Your system has been knuckleheaded to the point that the only way it can work is to drive the pressure MUCH higher than is necessary, which is wasting fuel, and equipment. You shouldn't need more than 2 PSI on a system of this design unless there is something (remote fan coil units that depend on pressure to push condensate up hill)

Their expenses wil be MORE than worth the money. It would probably pay for itself in the first few months of operation in fuel savings alone, to say nothing of eliminating all the complaints, which to your department would be PRICELESS....

Also, as has been explained, you need to purchase the steam bible (The Lost Art of Steam Heating) available from the book store on this site. THe more you know, the better off you will be.


Click on this link to get hooked up with Frank.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/79/All-Steamed-Up-Inc

ME

good advice [if you can take it!]

whether that is possible or not to get one of our best in to solve these problems, a layout drawing in plan and elevation would be helpful with the rads, and other elements numbered would help us see how the steam was supposed to go from the boiler to the radiators and come back as water. also note how the air gets out as steam is starting to rise--"air is the enemy, to be chased out like the raccoons from the garbage cans"!
later on, some tape on the pipe to show the direction of pitch could help to find sags which are holding enough water to form an air-lock.
the aim would be to get this system working as it once did before someone in the accounting dept thinks that an old badly maintained system is inherently inefficient only because it is steam, and replaces it with something newfangled, [which also no one understands with its own set of problems].--nbc

Testing, testing, 1,2,3...

Try this with the radiator that doesn't work. Turn off the steam supply valve. remove the non electric TRV and vent. Slowly open the steam shut off valve. If you hear air coming out, either your TRV or your vent, or both have failed.

If you don't hear any escaping air, the steam supply/condensate is clogged, and not allowing the steam in or the condensate out.

Eventually, the air will be completely expelled, and the radiator should get hot.

Another thing to check is that if the air vent will not act as a vacuum breaker, that radiator cold be holding condensate in a vacuum, whereby not allowing any steam in, or condensate out. Generally speaking, when the boiler shuts down, and pressure drops, a vacuum should form, thereby allowing any condensate being held by a vacuum to break its hold and allow the condensate to drain back to the heat source. It may be necessary to put a vacuum breaker on this radiator to relieve the vacuum.

Your condensate return system is already in trouble due to improper device locations. It could be compounding your problems.

Now, you've got some homework to do. Get back to us with the results.

ME

Mark...

Thanks for the advice..Before I got a chance to read your posting, I removed the air valve from both radiators, and went back about 4 hrs later, and both radiators were warm...(the one on the left of the room was warmer than the one on the right). They werent as hot as the rear 2 that always have worked, but they are warm......I remove the non electrical TRV and just but the air valve itself back on..Not sure if maybe the TRV was faulty in both units all along?....Is this a sign of anything?...are they pooled?...what can I do to get them as hot as the rear?...The fact that they are now getting warm I assume is a step in the right direction.....

Thank you

HMMmmm...

It is a step in the right direction, and I have seen two defective TRV's in the filed of the hundreds I've deployed. But what really concerns me is that when you pulled the vent that air didn't SCREAM out of the vent hole. Kinda indicates that steam is not making it up there, indicating a blockage in the main, or the individual branch serving these radiators.

If the pathway were clear, the vent hole should have been whistling like dixie. Did you shut the steamer off and allow it to relax/breath? It is possible that the steam access to the radiator is being blocked by condensate held in a vacuum. If the steamer did shut down and pressure went to zero, and the condensate was released back to the steamer, upon restart, those rad's should have been whistling. Another give away would be gurgling at the radiator inlet. Steam pushing through trapped condensate.

Silly question, but are you absolutely certain the steam control valve to the radiator is open? As you probably know, ASSumptions will get you into trouble.

But it is progress.

With the system pressured up, and the TRV/vent pulled, carefully hold your ear next to the vent hole and see if you can hear anything. Breathing out, or breathing in, or panting like a dog.

ME

...

Mark...

Yeah that was the first thing i checked because when they did work that one time it was during court and people were dripping wet with sweat so I remember that I shut them off on that day, and re-opened them the next morning, and then they never worked again....Yesterday is the first time there was actually heat rising to them since and I think that was because I had the vent off for so long...But as you said, there is nowhere as much air pressure coming from the valve on these 2 compared to all others.....

Try this...

Keep the radiators OFF at their valves. (my assumption is that they can be FULLY turned off.). Let the system come up to steaming pressure. Remove the TRV/vent assembly. Open the radiator control valve and see if you hear gurgling at the inlet, or air hissing from the vent hole.

If you hear gurgling when charging with steam, the radiator is trapped. If you hear nothing, the stoppage is further upstream. It could be a simple as the branch tee serving these radiators are coming off below the flooded condensate return, thereby not allowing steam to even reach the radiator. And that would point you back down to the mechanical room, with all of those returns, and all of those check valves, and the improperly located trap. And all of these problems need to be diagnosed "Eyes/Hands On" by a competent contractor, like Steamhead. Too many things going on at once for photographs to be able to do any justice to the problem. An infrared imaging camera could possibly be a very valuable tool at this point in the game. Any chance of borrowing one from the Fire Department and taking pictures of the condensate return tree in the basement? Also makes diagnosing bad traps on the 2 pipe part of the system a snap as well...

ME

ME

156

You're troubleshooting from the end, You need to be starting from the beginning.Where's the vents, where's the traps? Ultra-sonically test the traps.Repair or replace any bad traps.They need to be serviced and or replaced every 4 or 5 years anyway.I wouldn't even deal with the one-pipe radiators yet. Just my opinion.

Paul

Thanks Paul...However one of the biggest issues in all this is cost....The city has next to no money so repairing something that is working regardless of whether it's working properly or not, is the last thing on their minds....I followed the pipe all the way to the basement area and the pipe stays hot until the 2nd floor where it just becomes warm...
Through the years to compensate for all the traps that would need replacement, they seemed to bypass all 20-30 of them and put the one right above the return tank...In a nutshell, through the years, whatever cost saving technique could be implicated to the system to save money regardless if it was the right way or not has been done which leaves me with this nightmare....

Sad

I hear you. The bean-counters don't realize that all the repairs would be paid for in savings, in no time at all. You could probably improve that system's effieciency by 40 or 50%

Typical government mentality

you can't fix stupid!

keep up the good work anyway

if you keep on making a repair plan, it may be possible to present it in a different light they would pay for. perhaps when faced with a choice of repair now for x, or replace later for 15x?--nbc

If

the trap housings are still on the radiators, check this out http://barnesandjones.com/resource/repair-elements-cage-units/

System diagram would be VERY helpful to you.

156,

I strongly recommend making an accurate system drawing.  Start off at the boiler steam main and follow the pipes.  Information you would need:

1)  Steam mains:  Pipe size, length of the mains, EVERYTHING that connects to them, vent locations, make, and model.  Include the height above the waterline of the boiler sightglass.  Do the steam mains tilt back to the boiler or is there piping coming off of the mains that eventually goes back to the condensate tank or the bottom of the boiler.

2)  Vertical risers:  Pipe size, length of the riser, Vent make and model if it has one.  The number and size of the radiators connected to it.  Whether the radiator is a one pipe or two pipe configuration.

3)  Return piping:  What is connected to it, Height above sightglass waterline.

4)  Condensate tank:  Is the tank above or below the waterlevel in the sightglass.

5)  LUMPS IN THE PIPE:  record every trap location, size, manufacturer, and model.  Look for places where things used to be, but have been removed.  Knuckleheads like to remove things "that don't work".  Verify that all ISOLATION valves are actually FULLY open or fully shut.  Any valve that is partially open is suspect.

Speaking of partially open valves, what is the ball valve in your "back of the boiler" picture connected to?

The knowledge you gain by understanding your system will make operating so much more easier and efficient.

Larry C

maybe your building is in here

[u][color=#0000ff]http://courthousehistory.com/[/color][/u]

nbc

NBC

Thank you for the link...However my building is not on there...This is a city Hall/Municipal court......Still as historic as those in that link.....

Pride in historic buildings

Maybe that site would still like to have a well-taken picture by yourself.
When people discover their courthouse on some distant site, they can often have a renewed sence of civic pride. Along with that may go a willingness to maintain the building better. In the current economy, there will not be any talk of building new, so why not keep the old in good shape?
Or am I being grossly naive?
I just hope no one gets an idea that these problems are the result of "inefficient steam".
"what do you expect-it's steam"
When you get finished with this, every one will be surprised how comfortable an old system like this can be.
Getting to that point may be difficult but not impossible.--NBC

NBC

Thanks to you and all the others on this site feeding me info and suggestions, and a tech that was actually willing to listen and show me things, the heat is working the best it has in 15+ years according to various people throughout the building and it's not a blasting scorching heat as it was before,...it's a slow, calm, comfortable heat if that makes any sense at all....
After everything, I got it working at about 6 PSI...i Know it is still high, but it is cut down to half of what it was running....
So far this winter, I have gone through about 1400 gallons of oil...That is with the heat running about 4-6 hours 5 days a week....In your opinion, is that good or bad....I can get back to you with the square footage of this massive building....

Free(?) outside assistance in surveying the steam system.

156,

Poking around on the Barnes and Jones website that Paul48 gave the link to, they appear to offer a free survey of the structure to help you map out what traps you have and what they can sell you.  Perhaps it would make sense to see if they could come out and perform the survey of your steam system.  Poke around on there website.  I saw other interesting documents and forms that may be of use to you.

I am not affiliated with any heating or plumbing company or manufacturer.

Congratulations on lowering the pressure and having everything working.  Here is to hoping that you can get it down to the proper range of less than 1 psi and significant fuel savings.

I'm not shy...

I've gone through about 1100 gallons of oil at our museum this year; 7200 heated square feet on three floors.  Roof insulation, but no wall insulation; mixed post and beam and balloon timber framing.  That help your comparison?

Maybe

Barnes and Jones would like to help preserve history, help you out, and use your building in advertisements. That would be a win-win if you ask me.Nice job, by the way.You're taking the time to understand the system, and that will pay you back, and the town, ten-fold.

Free survey

Thanks again for that link...I will look at it more in depth when I get a chance to this morning....To have them do that service for this old historic building that Abe Lincoln once spoke at would be great....I will keep you guys posted once I find some more info out about it.....

Abe Lincoln's speech

I am sure the system was silent, with no waiter-hammer while he spoke!
In these days with the present group of politicians, it might be a benefit if there were water-hammer to prevent them from speaking!
Keep up the good diagnostic work, you will get that system sorted out before too long.--NBC

NBC

Thats too funny NBC....Good point though

ANY UPDATES ?

156,
Any updates?

We would all like to hear of progress

Hopefully, your employers will not get in your way of making these corrections a bit at a time maybe, but with certainty towards a system that functions as it once did when first installed with silence, economy, and comfort! Good luck--nbc

Larry C.& NBC

How are you guys...I havent had a chance to come on here to update you guys on whats been going on here but here it is in a nutshell....
I had a pipe rot out last week and by the time it was noticed, I had a boiler room with water up to my ankles...The pipe was changed and upon changing it, it was determined that the pipes leading from the backfllow preventor were clogged not allowing water to pass through...They were somewhat unblocked by tapping the pipe with a wrench..(I could hear the sound of water passing through....
Once up and running after the installation of the new pipe, Another rotted out causing even a bigger mess down there in the boiler room...(Probaly because from unblocking the other pipe it put a little more added pressure and just burst it..it was so rotted out, my finger could go through it..)
The tech fixed that one the next day, and changed the backflow preventor,and made some added adjustments to the piping, and this morning things are running great..(no leaks)...the 2 radiators that were not working are now working....Building is going good as of now...knock on wood
On an added note a new question has came up...There is a certain department complaing of a smell of mold in their office, and it has been smelling since the heaters started working in their office...Apparently they havent worked for years, and now they are...The answer to them not working, the old Building Supt. had 4 electrical heaters installed in their office...(talk about wasting money)...could the smell be because of the steam heaters or no?

smelly rads

great to hear from you! glad all your rads are working.
that smell probably comes from a small leak, which keeps everything damp when the system is running. you may be able to use a small ultra-violet flashlight to see where the mould is, and therefore where the leak may be.
as the pipes get old, and rusty with frequent additions of fresh water, they will give you surprises--another reason to keep the pressure down, and fix even the smallest leak, rather than use the band-aid approach.--nbc

Until

you find the problem, a pot of water with orange peels, or spices in it should do the trick. It might be a good idea to take a bottle brush to the radiator in question. You may find that bologna sandwich that disappeared.

Glad to hear you are making progress.

156,

I am very glad to hear that you are making progress with the neglected / knuckle headed system. 

Have you contacted Barnes and Jones about performing a trap audit yet?

I am sure there will be more replacements.  Good luck in finding and fixing all of the failures so you end up with a quiet efficient comfortable building heating system.

EDIT 1:  Have you checked out the air vents on the steam mains and vertical risers?  Checking out means verifying proper vent operation and that they are correctly sized.

EDIT 2:  Any progress on finding or getting an accurate system diagram made?

Thanks..

Hi Larry..
I proposed everything you had mentioned to the public works director, and at this point, as I expected..."Funds are too low to perform such an audit at this time."
As is the case to perform an air test in the dept. that is complaining of the moldy smell...It was mentioned to use orange peels in a pot of water...Does this have to be heated, or do I just let it sit there?....ALso, any other tricks or ideas on how to bypass paying for the air test, that can be done by me,..just to show this dept I am trying....I have already put a dehumidifier in the area, but that doesnt seem to be good enough for them.,....

Thank you

156

Post the question about the funky radiators that didn't work for a long time and now work, in "Strictly Steam" and see if any of those folks have an old trick.

Smell moderation

I hope this is not the beginning of a legionella infestation. The water that has now begun to leak out of the Baseboard heaters has been in there festering for a long time. Get the superintendent to equip them all with masks, just as a precaution. An opinion from the health department as to whether there is any immediate danger would be a good idea as well. The electrical heaters will do nothing to reduce humidity, or bacteria.--NBC

MOLD SMELL

The days they complained the most, the steam heaters and the electrical heaters were on, and I was told that the office felt like it was 100 degrees in there...I was not in at the time, but as soon as I got back to work, is the day I had the huge leak I was referencing in an earlier post. For that, the heat was off for 2 whole days, and to try to narrow down the problem, the girls said during those 2 days, they did not get a headache or they didnt smell the moldy smell....
They have about 50 plants scattered throughout the 6 person office and was also thinking that could be a possible cause of the smell...I cannot smell anything they are speaking of no matter what time I go in there...I am not in there 8hrs straight like them either....It's been about about 2 weeks now, and still havent got an approval to get the air tested from my superior and in the meantime everyone in that office is looking to me for answers and I'm not too sure what to do.....
Paul48, thanks for the info...I will post it in there now...

Sure it's mold smell?

Longshot from HO here. leaking steam--perhaps from rad, or vent or shutoff valve or from somewhere below the floor -- in an area that hasn't had heat in awhile can smell funny to residents. if you can get there at the start of a heat cycle you might hear or see something. I used to run a coop and I know some people can't understand so much attention and funds on a heating system they expect just to keep chugging along forever with no maintenance. Since boards relate to numbers and reports, if you can possibly find the time in your busy day to write up a one-page note that clearly and in layman's terms the current conditions and risks/options, they may see that doing nothing can prove more expensive than doing nothing. May have to emphasize as the good experts on this site have said that the system may be salvageable if a good steam tech can do some repairs and bring it up to spec. in your note you can say you have consulted long-distance with top experts in the heating field. Unfortunately you have to deal with both the heating AND the politics. The warm winter probably works against you in terms of making it a priority. good luck!

Dave

Thanks for the reply Dave..For the first time today when I walked into the office I could smell what they were talking about....I will hang around that office in the morning to see if I can hear or see anything coming from the 3 radiators in that room...Could all the plants in the office possibly be a cause of the odor?

Uh, yeah...

Over watered plants will and can make a stinky situation. But old air inside a steam main will stink when its vented as well. Kind of a musty odor.

ME

Plants

But did they tell you the plants were put there recently? if not the only new factor you describe is that those rads are getting hot for the first time, which by itself might smell different if they never were hot before, especially if they were recently painted. add a leak to that and they might mis-identify the smell. If you just keep following the great diagnostic procedures you've been given here by the pros, you'll be able to eliminate a lot of things. For dealing with the board, if you can propose to them the expenditure of a few hundred dollars for an on-site consult with a REAL steam expert --first find one and get their rates--who can analyze the whole system and give them a report--or you can create the report based on what he says--then they will have the peace of mind of having definitive answers and options. The repair costs may very well be manageable and be much less than a new steam boiler and MUCH less than a tearout and install of a new hot water system. The will to spend money can suddenly manifest itself if the choice is to spend a little and have heat.

Bumpedy Bump Bump

156,

Anything new on the update or survey fronts?

Larry C