Heating Help

intermittent lockouts

i have a becket afg burner with a f3 head. i have been experiencing intermittent lockouts for the last couple of weeks. initially, i changed the nozzle and filter, which was pretty gummed up. i purchased the house near the end of last winter, so i'm not sure the last time this was done. the fact that the indoor tank was built in and covered with paneling with no access panel to access the valve, leads me to believe it had been awhile since the filer was changed. the problem still persisted, so i changed the electrode because the old ones were worn flat on the ends. lockouts ranged from 1-4 days, and usually fired right back up when i reset it. sometime there was delayed ignition of 3-4 seconds. there is no delay on the oil pump. i had a tech in to check it, but of course it ran and fired perfectly. yesterday when i came home from work it was on safety lockout. i opened the small cover a little and turned out the light before resetting the burner. the combustion chamber was totally dark for approximately 4 seconds intil it fired. is this definetly a bad transformer, or could something else ,possibly the primary control cause this problem? currently it has a france,5LAY-04 transformer.
 thanks for any advise

Locked Out:

Those things are the bain of my existence. I'm totally convinced that they were designed by some hateful person to make my life miserable. But, I'm still happy.
I've never seen this trick mentioned but I do it to every one of those hateful things and it usually stops these problems if all else fails and the head is carboned up. It is only on the ends. Take on old 3/4" or 1/2" copper fitting brush with a handle. Stick it down the burner tube (your hand will get very dirty) and scrape the carbon off the end cone. You can't always see it looking down the tube but if you run your finger over the end, you will feel it. A judicious scrap with the fitting brush usually fixes it. It seems that carbon, being a conductor, sometimes will allow the spark to go to ground upon start up. I can usually tell if I don't hear the spark at first, or I never hear the spark. But can pull an arc across the buss bars of the transformer.
There can be other causes. I just haven't heard that one mentioned. I keep a few old worn out fitting brushes in my burner box for just such occasions.

I would

next time you reset it, turn it off just after it light off, and then look in the chamber. If there is after burn, than you have or had an ignition, or low pump pressure occurance when it tried to start previous cycle. You could have a bad burner motor, coupling, cad cell control, and so on. I would start with a thorough cleaning, and if the filter at the tank is not accessible, have the tech blow the line, and mount the filter at the burner for future servicing. The strainer and nozzle also needs to be replaced.

i will try that

the second or third time i had it apart i looked down the tube and i saw a lot of residue around the cone. it wasn't carbon. it wasn't hard. it cleaned it with a rag and put it back together. after that cleaning, it actually ran for 4 days before locking out. i think i'm getting plenty of fuel. when the tech was here, he did check the transformer with a screwdriver  and it looked ok maybe a little weak. but when i looked in the window during the delayed ignition, there was definetly no spark across the electrodes. i will open it back up and clean the cone with a fitting brush. that seems like a good idea. have you ever seen a transformer work intermittently? off or on, rather than just produce a weak spark? i had thought about blowing out the line, but it seems like it is getting plenty of fuel. it lights as soon as the electrodes are energized
thanks, crabbydad

i will try that

the second or third time i had it apart i looked down the tube and i saw a lot of residue around the cone. it wasn't carbon. it wasn't hard. it cleaned it with a rag and put it back together. after that cleaning, it actually ran for 4 days before locking out. i think i'm getting plenty of fuel. when the tech was here, he did check the transformer with a screwdriver  and it looked ok maybe a little weak. but when i looked in the window during the delayed ignition, there was definetly no spark across the electrodes. i will open it back up and clean the cone with a fitting brush. that seems like a good idea. have you ever seen a transformer work intermittently? off or on, rather than just produce a weak spark? i had thought about blowing out the line, but it seems like it is getting plenty of fuel. it lights as soon as the electrodes are energized
thanks, crabbydad

transformers

Ignition transformers can get intermittent before they finally die, it's usually arcing between layers on the HV winding. I had to replace my 14 year old transformer on my AFG a couple of years ago because of intermittent hard starting. I took care NOT to buy the electronic version.

The only way to be sure is to replace it, they don't give them away but worse that happens is you end up with a spare on the shelf.

Bob

Carbon Crud:

That's the stuff I'm talking about. But did you put your finger on the outside, the side facing the combustion chamber? That's where I find the crud. And when I find one like yours that stops going off for a period, and starts again. it is the crud.I also find that with that burner, you MUST use the nozzle brand, spray pattern and angle that the boiler manufacturer suggests. It is almost always a Delavan. It is almost always an 80 degree spray angle and a "B" (Solid) or "H" (Hollow) spray. Most of the ones I find that are problems have some odd nozzle in them. The problem goes away when I go back to what is recommended. I have always considered a "B" or a "H" to be a Delavan.Billtwocase may suggest otherwise. He sees far more of these old clunkers than I do. What I say has worked for me. 

What nozzle brand, type and spray are you using?

more lockouts

yesterday it locked out twice. it restarted on the first try with delayed ignition. this morning it was off again. it didn't ignite on the first try, so i took it apart. following ice sailors suggestion, i cleaned around the cone with a 3/4 fitting cleaner. the end cone was wet with oil and there was carbon around it on the face., but nothing actually sticking out beyond. i vacuumed it out, wiped everything off and put it back together. i fired right away, but its done this many times before . i was tempted to just get a new transformer yesterday, but, when i realized last week that the realtor had actually given us a free 1 yr. home warranty, i called them and had someone look at it. of course it ran fine when the tech checked it out. i called them back friday eve. but probably wont get a call back until monday. since i already paid the $100, i'd rather let them pay for the transformer.
 thanks

Also have him check

the "Z" dimension, with a gauge. You evidently have a transformer, and not an electronic ignitor, so what you see is what you get with those. Electronic ignitors can work today and not tomorrow. There are other causes of no or delayed ignition. Excess air, low pump pressure, wrong nozzle, air in fuel supply due to plugged filters, etc, low incoming voltage, draft problems, spark going to ground, pinched transformer wires, and the list can go on. How long was the spark when it was tested, and what color?

off again

just got home from grocery shopping and its on lockout again. did not reset on first try, so i'll let it sit while i put the groceries away. i don't remember what color the spark was when he checked it. the first time he checked he said it was maybe a little weak, but then he checked the other side and said it looked ok. when i looked thru the window after pushing the reset the other day, there was no spark at all until ignition, probably 4 or 5 seconds after hitting the reset. i'm going to make sue there are not any pinched wires or loose connections at the primary. if the electrodes were grounding out on the end cone, wouldn't i still see a spark illuminating in the combustion chamber? also, after checking the spark, he put the transformer back down and BOOM, there was a heck of a blowback. to check spark, i just need a insulated handled screwdriver, and ground the spring to the base of the transformer, making sure not to touch any part of the transformer with anything else? is that correct?
 thanks, crabbydad

Replacements:

When in doubt, replace the transformer.
Use an electronic ignitor.

nozzle

i am using a .85 80A

transformer

unfortunately, i can't get a transformer today. i could get by without heat, but i have an indirect water heater. my wife wont be happy if she can't take a shower tomorrow. does anyone know of any place open today where i could get a replacement for a france 5LAY-04?

What boiler/furnace

do you have, and what was his combustion test results? I wouldn't replace it with an electronic ignitor unless it is, or has the capability of interrupted ignition.

in maryland

glenarm

boiler

he didn't do a combustion test. i have a peerless WBV-04 boiler with a beckett afg with a f3 head

if you

have a Sid Harvey near you, get a T92, not a T92E, that is electronic. What cad cell control is on there?

Unfortunately

Sid closed their Baltimore area branch some years ago.

Crabbydad, Glenarm is real close to us. If you have any more trouble, get in touch. We stock every part that burner might need, and we ALWAYS set burners up with a digital analyzer.

also

how can he know whether or not it is set right without a combustion test? Sounds like excess air and poor adjustments to me. Although the transformer may be weak, there are other factors involved that he may not have explored

did very little

he didn't do very much,checked the spark on the transformer, turn it off and on several times. it of course purred like a kitten while he was here.  it cost me $100 for the deductible on the home warranty, so i really want him to fix it so it doesn't cost me any more.it runs smooth once it ignites. the problem is much worse now. i need to get him back here tomorrow. otherwise i may just buy a transformer and see if that takes care of the problem for now, then have everything checked by someone. i'm going to go down and check the combustion side of the cone and possibly using a mirror see how the electrodes sit in relationship to the center of the cone. thanks for the advise
          crabbydad

cad cell

it has honeywell 7184u, interrupted ignition.

cleaned combustion side of cone

still locking out, every couple of hours. hopefully i can get the tech back tomorrow. if i can't, i'm going to take a chance and replace the transformer.
thanks.

replaced transformer

hope this solves the problem. ignited immediately. will post results
crabbydad

keep us up to date

good luck to you

problem solved

burner hasn't locked out in 3 days. i'll wait a few more before i throw the old transformer in the recycle can. thanks to everyone who helped.
  crabbydad

lockout again

ran great for 8 days after replacing the transformer. my wife had to take a quick cold shower this morning. it fired right back up. not sure where to go from here. i'll open it up and take a look  when i get home from work, but that probably wont tell me anything. this morning when i went down to reset it, the door to the laundry room/furnace room was closed. the dryer was running last night.could the combination of dryer running and door closed when the burner was trying to light have caused a problem with the fresh air? i know this is a shot in the dark.
crabbydad

you would

have soot if it was an air intake issue

still running

its been 2 days and still running. i'm gonna wait and see what happens. i wanted to wait till after the heating season and give a good cleaning. i'm not sure the last time it was cleaned. the tag on the side has 2009 as the last time the oil co. performed maintenance.i think whatever made it lockout the last time is a different problem. i think the transformer solved the initial problem. i no longer have delayed ignition. if i can't resolve it, i'll have to get steamhead in to fix it.

still locking out

but it runs for 7-10 days before doing so. now when it locks out, it is locked out when i wake up in the morning. i know one of the times it was a a very windy night. any thoughts?
  thanks,
         crabbydad

needs to be

cleaned/serviced, and set up. Is there a draft control installed? Breech and over fire draft may be too high. Can you post some pics? This may help

Ultimate Solutions:

That may be, but after what you have been through. I've been through that too.
That burner has had an evil eye cast upon it and has become  as hateful as it can be and is hell bent on making your remaining days as miserable as it can make it.
I have found on more than a few occasions with that hated (by me) infernal device, that the only way to break free of it is to remove it and put a Carlin EZ-1 in it. For the more than a few that I have done this with, I never EVER had another flame failure. Some may prefer Riellos, another fine choice, but I like the Carlins because I don't have to go out and buy all new tools to work on them. Like special metric gauges to check the pressure. I have enough specialized tools already.  
Some times, there is a hidden flaw in something that we just cannot see or find.

need a good tech

Hi Crab,
been reading all the different post for your problem,you need to get a good oil burner tech in to look over your entire system. I've been doing oil burners for a while and sounds like no one is finding the cause to your problem,they stop looking at the entire system soon as the burner fires and the underlining problem may still be there.Many factors go into a good burner operation,Bill mentioned draft(need a draft gauge for this) reading are taken over the fire as well as in the breech.You mentioned the oil filter, did you change the one on the burner as well as the one by the tank? Oil pump pressure(checked with a gauge) does the pump pressure stay within 20% of the manufactures specs when the pump is shut off? How about water in your oil tank! Did anyone check this. Do you have a two pipe or one pipe oil system? Air leaking into the oil lines could cause you problems as well. On smaller boilers the AFG requires a LOW FIRE RATE BAFFLE, does yours? What are your CO2 readings? Did you do a smoke test? You just bought this House so who knows what problems your up against,there may be a few. Many more things come into play,I've only told you a few so you can realize how complicated this can be but one thing is for sure...if you don't pick up the phone and get it running your gonna have to answer to the boss...THE WIFE