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    Guys I need your help!!! (32 Posts)

  • Nial Nial @ 3:39 PM
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    Guys I need your help!!!

    I have a 1985 Peerless water boiler with water heater in my 3000SF two level house + 600SF heated area in basement.
    Above ground the oil tank and feeding lines were replaced in October 2011. Boiler last tuneup was January 2012.
    The boiler has a draft inducer.
    This boiler has 2 labels on it. One of them shows model number JOTW-75-PWCT and another JOTW-100-W.
    I think my boiler can work in two modes 75,000 BTU and 100,000 BTU.

    Boiler Burner Specifications:
    Boiler Model#_____ Burner Model#___ Burner Head__ Static Plate___Nozzle Size
    JO/JOT-TW075____AFG-F3__________F3____________2 3/4"_____ .75 70° A
    JO/JOT-TW100____AFG-F3__________F3____________2 3/4"_____1.00 70° B

    The boiler worked very good with a - .75 70° A nozzle. On January 10th 2012 we had a problem. The boiler started to emit black smoke from it.
    After the oil filter was replaced it worked for 2 days then just didn't start. My service company made tuneup. After two days again the burner did not start.
    Then they replaced an eye and start relay, and replaced the nozzle from .75 70° A to .65 80° A, becuse on old service list has mark ".65 80 A only".
    The service guy tried to adjust the burner but CO2 level can't go more than 7.5% because it started smokeing.
    He said you have a very high draft even without draft inducer ExAir=103.0% and boiler needs to install automatical draft regulator for a couple hundred bucks.
    So they downfired my boiler but parameters now is:
    339.3 °F--- T stack
    7.46 % --- CO2
    83.5% --- EFF
    103.0% --- ExAir
    11.0% --- Oxygen
    4 ppm --- CO
    9 ppm --- CO Air fire
    -0.1076 inH20 Draft
    56.1°F --- Ambient temp
    0 ppm CO Ambient
    Smoke Test 0 0 0
    Avg Smoke # 0

    With downfired burner I don't have enough hot water for two bathrooms. The boiler is working right now. What is the problem with my burner? Do I need to install a draft regulator?
  • Aaron_in_Maine Aaron_in_Maine @ 5:19 PM
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    I can't see from your pics how far does your Smokepipe go before it goes into the chimney or code here(in Maine) is if you have ten or more feet then you need a draft inducer. Also when unit was serviced did they vacuum the whole boiler chamber and all. Sounds like you have a lot of debris in there messing up the flame pattern.
  • Nial Nial @ 6:03 PM
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    smoke pipe is short

    Aaron thanks for responding.
    The smoke pipe is connected to the wall on the picture and this wall is the chimney, so horizontal pipe is about 1 feet. They said draft is so strong and i don't need draft inducer but I need a draft regulator because draft take a lot of air from the burner and this is problem why CO2 is too low. I'm not sure if they vacuumed the chamber but i saw they vacuumed the boiler. They opened the top on my boiler. Why is CO2 too low? And why did it down-fire my boiler? I think the right nozzle for my burner is 1.00 70° B.
  • northernboiler northernboiler @ 6:51 PM
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    Correct Settings

    The correct settings for your burner are as follows

    JOT-075 AFG F3 .65 80^ A 140 psi w/ 5880 LFRB
    JOT-100 AFG F3 .85 80^ A 140 psi NO LFRB

    Down firing your burner without properly compensating for the excess air volume can or may cause combustion reading results such as yours. That is why a low fire rate baffle (LFRB) is used.
    Also your boiler NEEDS to be cleaned (brushed & vacuumed from the top and front access panels. The combustion chamber may not need to be cleaned out every year, however from the photo you provided, it appears to me, that it may not have been opened up for a considerable amount of time and may have some considerable debris
    in it.
    Going out on a limb, my gut is telling me that the burner is not setup correctly.
    Did they also provide you with the numbers they set the burner up with (pressure, air settings, vacuum)?
    Also, did they ever explain why the boiler sooted up in the first place?
  • Nial Nial @ 7:47 PM
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    correct settings

    I took the settings from my burner passport. They made tuneup in (brushing and vacuuming) January 2012. When I asked what is the problem they said it needed tuneup. Last records at service list say I need to install draft regulator. But I think too much draft doesn't affect CO2 level. The last service man told me the boiler is cleaned very well because ExAir 100.3%. Unfortunately they didn't provide me pressure, air and other parameters. I never used oil boiler before. They also said the boiler is old and I need upgrade it to new one. Service provided by oil company.
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 8:35 PM
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    pump pressure

    That boiler in 1985 had 100 PSI for your fuel pump pressure. First thing, what is the breech draft? I bet way too high with that draft inducer. Was this installed when new? Although these are tight boilers, you don't need a draft inducer here, but a draft regulator. I would go with a .75 80*A, 140 PSI, remove the draft inducer, add a draft control, maintain a -.02 draft over fire, and retest combustion. Another possibility is the front chamber has come forward, and is now impinging. This is common for those. You will find 2 screws either side of the burner mounting flange on the front cast plate. If they fell loose, or are missing, then there is some or most of your problem. Was the top flue collector and front panel removed for the cleaning? They need a good brush and vacuuming. I would also have your chimney inspected. It should provide at least a -.04 breech draft to run this thing without the inducer. Those are poor readings, and that stack temp in low for one of these
  • STEVEusaPA STEVEusaPA @ 9:10 PM
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    it's time to take a step back.....

    High draft and excess air are 2 different problems, that when dealt with separately, will help both. 
    I would ask to have the company's best tech to come out, open the boiler up, and check everything.  Take the front & the top off the boiler, make sure it's perfectly clean. Make sure the combustion chamber hasnt collapsed or been damaged during cleaning. Make sure the door gasket is good and properly sealing.  Make sure end cone is clean, free of debris.  Make sure the gasket on top is fine and sealing properly.  Re check z dimension, burner insertion depth, all flue pipe, and take a look up the chimney.  Add your draft regulator.  Re check pump strainer, and all air handling parts.
    Start with factory spec'd nozzle, reset air band and shutter settings to factory spec., fire it up, let it run.  Check pump pressure first. While it's warming up, get a clamp-on meter attached to check amp draw (make sure burner motor isn't dogging down.  Then get draft adjusted to -.01 over fire, then smoke testing to find 0 smoke.  After all of this, then you can use the analyzer to check and adjust for the rest of your settings.
  • Nial Nial @ 10:00 PM
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    draft regulator

    Thanks guys for advice. So I will call the company tomorrow and ask for the draft regulator installation. Then I will follow all your advices. Let me see what happens. I will inform you later. Thanks a lot!
  • icesailor icesailor @ 10:02 PM
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    JO Boat Moorings:

    You need a new service company or you'll be switching to LP.
    That is the worst looking dirty boiler I have seen in a long time. In a lot of places, when someone sees a boiler that looks like that, they condemn it and tell a customer it needs to be replaced..
    It's probably a "Cold Start". JO boilers $*&^ as Cold Starts. They manufacturer copious amounts of Kibbles and Bits. The harried and uninformed soot sucker does a cursory brush and buff and pronounces it all done. It's got a  draft inducer on it? That makes smoke pipe removal a major PITA. So, take it out, draft inducer and all (with wiring) take the top cover off and the bonnet/flue collector off and brush the thing down. Not an easy task. It all falls into the chamber. That means you need to take the burner out and suck through the hole or remove the front. Not an easy task. You only have an hour to do this. Skip it. All done.
    But WAIT!!! See that piece of sheet metal above the burner that's part of the jacket? Take that off and BEHOLD!!!! There's a clean out plate where there are HORIZONTAL PASSAGES!!!! AND, you can run a brush and a huge helping of kibbles and bits will fall into the chamber (with all the rest of the K&B's). Then, you have done a big part of overcoming the severe case of COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disorder) that the boiler is suffering from. Most of the condemned JO/JOT boilers I have seen have never had that plate removed.

    You may have enough draft in the breaching to suck the feathers off a crow bar, but you have positive pressure in the chamber!!!! OIL BURNER 101. High draft in the breech, positive pressure in the chamber EQUALS a dirty, plugged boiler. That boiler is designed and dually rated to high fire at 100.000 BTU's. And it is down fired and won't run? Get real!!!!.
    And I've never seen an oil boiler that was naturally drafted  or had a PV'er, that didn't have a draft control. With PV'ers like a Tjernlund SS-1, where I work with very high winds, I some times need to use two RC's because one won't pass enough air and will suck the flame away from the end cone and the eye will see it and trip it out.
    Any soot sucker worth his face mask filter should recognize that that black burn pattern is a sign of a dirty oil boiler that is plugged up. If not, they need to go back to cleaning gas boilers.
    What a sad mess.
    After another look at the photo, it must be a warm start because it has a tankless. Connect a storage tank to the tankless and you willnever run out of hot water and you can run the system a lot cooler. Use an electric hot water heater (50's are my personal favorite) with a circulator.
    Change that wool sock filter to a MAN's filter, a Spin On filter.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 15, 2012 10:09 PM.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 10:29 PM
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    boiler lasted one heating season after the oil company did the same thing to mine. Same scorching on the front.....said it was over-firing and put a smaller nozzle in.It was 12 years old when it went to the bone yard. The chamber was full, and the flame had no place to go. Ice.........your assessment is right on the money.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 11:05 PM
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    And that makes me an a$$hat for knowing that and saaying something about it.
    If I did that and condemed the boiler, my greatest phobic fear is that someone like me might come along and tell you that I was wrong and the boiler was just dirty. I guess I'd rather be known as an a$$hat than a crook.
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 1:12 AM
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    Once again

    we see the oil company guys didn't know what they were doing. Go to the Find a Contractor page of this site to find someone in your area who does.

    Is that Beckett burner an AFG or just an AF? If the latter, it doesn't produce enough static air pressure to fire a JO series boiler. If that were my boiler, and I wasn't going to completely replace it, I'd put on a Beckett NX.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 16, 2012 1:13 AM.
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 8:24 AM
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    you hurt my feelings again. I am an oil company guy   :)
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 2:12 AM
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    I'll bet

    you would have fired whoever let that happen, as I would have. >:(
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • Nial Nial @ 8:44 AM
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    Oil burner model

    My burner is Beckett AFG-F3. Only one contractor in 30 mile distance from my zip (10597)
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 8:48 AM
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    If they are here

    then it is a call well placed. 
  • STEVEusaPA STEVEusaPA @ 9:41 AM
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    Frank bashes oil companies....

    because he doesnt own one.  He likes to push his personal agenda to not use oil companies for service, because it benefits him.  The real problem this poster is having is that someone competent didnt come out, and do the correct job.  Many techs from oil companies do an excellent job, especially techs from smaller oil companies.
    Sure there's a problem with larger companies that have dozens of techs, with only one or 2 top guys, their service is horrible, and I eventually get them as a customer, based on my reputation/word of mouth--and that's fine for me.  Larger companies are a small companies best source of new customers.
    But you cant condemn ALL oil companies to homeowner's, it's just not fair, and it's just not true.  Just like the comments you have made numerous times about oil companies purposely do not set up their equipment for maximum efficiency so they can sell more oil.  If you personally know of any owner or an oil company, or service manager, who tells their techs to 'run them dirty so we can sell more oil', then do everyone a favor and call them out on it.
    Btw, I actually do not personally know Steamhead, but I like him.  It's obvious he's very talented, very knowledgeable, and a great asset to the industry--just look at the pics of some of his jobs.  But as far as the oil company bashing--he's just off the mark.
  • Paul Fredricks Paul Fredricks @ 10:40 AM
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    El Wrongo, Stevo

    Frank didn't bash ALL oil companies, just said he runs into a lot of bad techs. And I bet, with the accounts he sees, that's an accurate assessment.

    I work for an oil company and see a lot of bad workmanship out there. All? No. But quite a bit.
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 2:31 AM
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    I call things as I see them. If it's wrong, it's wrong. And I'm sure you've noticed me posting the same things about, for example improper boiler installs.

    We frequently hear customers say things like "the other guys said that was normal" (oil odors, water hammer, etc) "they said it couldn't be fixed", "they only took a half hour to service my burner" and my favorite "you guys don't smell bad like they did" (can't make this stuff up!). How do you think customers perceive our industry when they have experiences like that?

    And you're right- it does bring us business. The problem is, these knuckleheads make everyone in the business look bad. Whenever Bill, or Charlie, or you, or me, or any one of the other conscientious people on here walk into a new customer's premises, we have to fight that negative image the customer has of our industry. We're more than willing to do so, but it gets real old sometimes.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 17, 2012 2:32 AM.
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 11:13 AM
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    Frank is OK in my book

    I know what he meant, I see that here with oil companies. He is not making a general statement, and I take no offense to it, just like to rattle his cage 
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 12:26 PM
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             It falls on the consumer to know what they should be getting for their hard earned money.If they do not get actively involved, before-hand, you wind up as one of the thousands of posters on this site.It's not a condemnation of any one group of tradespeople, I've seen it across many different trades. I've been through 4 or 5 of the larger oil companies since being in this house, and since the destruction of the last boiler, have made sure I was present during the servicing of the new boiler. I have had (passive) arguments with techs about changing the nozzle size of my new boiler, because they didn't have my size on the truck. He was not happy that he had to take a ride to the supply house. Not one tech has been happy that I make them vacuum the combustion chamber(tough job... Smith cast-iron, open the door).
             I know that this has nothing to do with the size or makeup of the company. It has to do with educating your employees, and holding them to a certain standard.I'll take it one step farther.....educate your customers.Tell them exactly what they'll be getting for their money. Encourage them to be present, and by-all-means ask questions. My 2 cents, for what it's worth.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 5:19 PM
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    Frank bashes oil companies because

    he is correct more than wrong with what he says. If Bill lived near me I would have a very different view of oil burners. That would be the view of watching him take care of them so I do not have to. Billtwocase you are by far the exception and I am grateful for the fact you show oil burner guys from oil companies can do the right thing and do do the right thing. I sadly seldom see that out here in western MA.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Ed N.Y.C. Ed N.Y.C. @ 12:01 PM
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    According to the book that come with that B/B the settings are as follows.   JO/JOT-TWO 75   Burner   Beckett AFG-3  Head F3  Static Plate 2 3/4 "  Noz .75 70 A  Air Settings Shutter 8.0 Band 0    TW100  Beckett AFG-3  Head F3  Static plate 2 3/4  Noz 1.00 80B Shutter 9.0 Band 0  oil pressure on both 100 PSI   If it came with  Beckett  oil pressure 140 PSI the Settings are  AFG -3  HEAD F-3 STATIC Plate  3 3/8' Noz .65 80A Shutter 6.0  Band 2  For the TW100  AFG-3 Head f-3  plate 3 3/8  Noz .85 80 A  Shutter 6.0 Band 1  and DRAFT over fire --.01 to --.02 AS far as i see your broblem  all starts with excessive DRAFT  Hope this Helps   ED N.Y.C. 
  • Nial Nial @ 1:08 PM
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    Draft regulator

    My oil company ask 300-350 bucks for draft regulator installed. My pipe diameter is 7".
    Is it right price for this work?
  • Paul Fredricks Paul Fredricks @ 3:19 PM
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    As a general rule we don't talk price on this website. There are too many variable to know what the price should be. The best thing to do if you are questioning the price is to have others come in and give quotes.
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 9:34 PM
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    Thanks Charlie

    You can rest assure that your corner of the state is well served having you in their corner. It is sad to see the quality of work out there. Around here, the service is done primarily by full service oil companies, and there is a lot of truth to how each one operates. We all see our share of sh## work. Most i would be ashamed to bill a customer for. I bow down to guys like you and Frank, especially when it comes to steam. We have none around here to speak of, so I know just enough to be dangerous so to speak. I think we can all agree that the servicing done on that Peerless was not as it should be. A new boiler would be a good thing, but it is not among the worst out there. We put many of those in late 70's to late 80's, then they went south with leakers, etc. This thing needs a chamber I'll be willing to bet, needs a full strip down cleaning, all new rope packing for front clean out and flue collector, needs the right nozzle, increased pump pressure, pre and post purge control will do wonders, probably still has the original electrodes, Psc motor might help, and I could go on. Price is a no-no, but that sounds high. I just got back from a Roth certification course, already been, but just as a nite out. It is scary to hear some of the questions asked by installers.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 11:10 PM
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    I do think that good money is getting thrown

    after bad when I see boilers like this. I think a new set of eyes and hands is called for here. Exact settings can be giving in good conscience be given with out being at the boiler with a combustion analyzer going. I would say keep this boiler running as safe as you can and save for a new properly installed in the spring when the weather opens up.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Mac_R Mac_R @ 2:48 PM
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    Sick of it.

    I am so sick of people saying that it is only oil companies that to do shotty work.  I have seen with my own two eyes a local company who only does service install a boiler that I would have ripped out. They were not putting in any isolation valves or pumping away.  In fact they used a strait elbow off the boiler supply right into the Amtrol air scoop.  This same company also way overcharged for the boiler and ended costing the customer more fuel than what they were using before.  So before you go bashing oil companies, there are people in all aspects of this industry that need to go home, take a photo of their tools, and sell them on Ebay.  I work for a small two man oil company.  You have seen my work.  You see what I install.  I tell my customers that my job is not to sell oil.  My job is to educate my customers on ways to save oil.  I would not sell Buderus if I cared about selling oil.  Yes our gallons delivered are down.  However we have picked up more customers and installed more systems because of how much oil we saved people.  When you cut someones oil usage by 80% they tend to talk. 
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 6:46 PM
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    Oh Mac it's not just the oil companies

    The boilers I have seen for the past month have been oil or gas company installations. Just the way the month went. I have seen plenty installations I see by heating companies that look terrible too.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 12:12 AM
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    No one here has ever said

    that only oil companies do shoddy work.

    But we see enough of this from oil companies that it is worth mentioning.

    As I said earlier, shoddy work makes us all look bad.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • Tony Massi Tony Massi @ 4:00 PM
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    Vintage 85 JOT Peerless is one tight boiler. You can barely get  soot sword thru it. Five zones and a coil @ .65 per  gallon. And a L8124A, Yikes! What size head is on the Becket, is the burner a AF or SR or AFG I couldn't make it out by the picture. I would hope it's under a F 6.They down fired it for the back pressure. I would at least install a Riello burner a new chamber & and give the boiler a good cleaning. That will give you a fighting chance. If you decide to replace the boiler you can always use the Riello over.The real answer is a new Boiler $$.
    Good Luck..
  • Tony Massi Tony Massi @ 4:01 PM
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    Vintage 85 JOT Peerless is one tight boiler. You can barely get  soot sword thru it. Five zones and a coil @ .65 per  gallon. And a L8124A, Yikes! What size head is on the Becket, is the burner a AF or SR or AFG I couldn't make it out by the picture. I would hope it's under a F 6.They down fired it for the back pressure. I would at least install a Riello burner a new chamber & and give the boiler a good cleaning. That will give you a fighting chance. If you decide to replace the boiler you can always use the Riello over.The real answer is a new Boiler $$.
    Good Luck..
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