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Myson 7000 toekick heater (17 Posts)
Myson 7000 toekick heaterI'm trying to install a toekick heater in our kitchen. we have an oil-fired boiler and baseboard heat which is a one pipe loop. (3/4") Kitchen is being reno'd and I removed about 10 feet of baseboard, (bypassed it in the basement keeping the loop correct) to fit some pantry cabinets flush to the wall, and I'm trying to install the toekick heater in one of these pantry cabs. I followed the directions, and installed a monoflow tee on the supply side and a regular tee on the return and made sure the return is 12" from the monoflow tee. (photo attached). The unit is only a couple of inches above the main line.
My problem is that the hot water doesn't seem to be flowing through the unit. the unit is always cold, although baseboards both upstream and downstream are toasty hot. The pipes going through the floor just before the flexible hoses are hot. I have isolating valves at the end of the flexible hoses that attach to the unit. I removed the unit, opened each valve into a bucket, have great pressure, and very hot water. when I hooked it back up, opened the valves and bled the air from the unit, it got hot for a minute, but not long enough for the fan to kick on, and then cold again. I was able to manually run the fan by switching to summer setting. I've tested the thermostat by heating the coil pipe with a lighter and it does kick the fan on when hot. I just don't understand why the water is not moving through the unit and what can be done to correct it. someone mentioned putting a shutoff valve on the main between the supply tee and return tee to force the water through which is a good idea to test it but I know I can't leave it closed or the downstream baseboards will be starved. Any ideas or suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks.
Toe Kick:That should work.
I never install a tee in a mono-flo loop on its side. Only in an upward position. In spite of what the instructions may say, if I install a toe-kick on a series looped circuit, I always put the tee on the return.
Are you sure that you have the flow correct? That shouldn't make a difference except that with B&G monoflo fittings, you have the groove that makes it so you always know where to put it because the groove has to face the other tee, no matter whether it is on the supply or return. And a change in flow direction doesn't make a difference.
By going off on the flat, you may be forcing an air pocket into the coil and when you purge, it is only coming through the tee that is in the vertical.
Strange things can happen.
An acceptable solder job. Nice to see a lack of "grapes" on the fittings and pipes. A rag is a wonderful thing.
Hint. Buy a spray bottle like you would spray your plants with. Fill it with water and spray it on the wood before you solder. Especially the rotten spot on the floor where the pipes go through. Soak the heck out of it. While the fittings are heating up, the wood has to heat up and steam the water off. And if you have any "embers" glowing, you can spray them out. "Third World Fire Extinguisher". Of course, if you use a Bernzomatic blow torch, you really need it. You don't get that with a Presto-Lite or air-acetylene like you do with air-propane.
Toe kickThanks to all for the ideas and suggestions. The instructions did not call for the return tee to be on its side. That was my idea to keep things "neat and orderly".
I'll change that so the tee is upright.
The arrow on the monoflo supply is pointing in the direction of the flow in the main.. This seemed to make sense because the input side of the monoflo is split so half the water is diverted into the top of the tee.
If I switch the monoflow tee to the return side, or add a 2nd monoflo to the return side, I assume the arrow should point against the flow, or, point at the supply tee.
I think the first thing I'm going to do is try swapping the lines at the unit just to see what happens. If nothing new, then I'll reverse the tees. I can't get to any of this until Sunday, so I'll post my results on Monday. Thanks again.
Dont you put the monoflow tee.....in the return? And if that doesnt work, both supply and return (fpr a toekick)? Would a globe valve between the 2 tees work, something you could throttle to force flow into the toekick?steve
HmmI think that the monoflow tee should be pointing against the flow if it is installed on the supply as you have it. Ideally it should be pointing the way you have it now but on the return. This is the reason you are getting no flow....
Toe kickA toe kick heater has much more restriction then 10 feet of baseboard.
Spread the distance between the tee's to more like ten feet, and you'll be fine.
Air vs. Pressure DropWhen push comes to shove, I don't think it's an air problem and I think furnacefighter15 and others have hit it on the nose. Water coming into the tee sees the pressure drop on the branch and decides it's easier to go straight, bypassing the toe kick heater. Whatever you can do to increase the pressure drop on the run will make it work:
- Increase the distance between the tees.
- Replace the return tee with another venturi (pointed in the opposite direction) so that you have two.Often wrong, never in doubt.
Kink in hoseYou mentioned flexible hose, make sure it wasn't kinked when the unit was slid back in place. Also , I would solder in a 1/2 inch ball valve on the right side of the horizontal pipe , and a 1/2 inch tee with a boiler drain screwed into the branch. To purge just close valve , purge with drain , open valve and you're done. If there is poor flow with the valve closed but good flow when open there is a reason.
Working Toe Kicks:I have NEVER in my life, had a toe kick heater not work. Whatever is wrong, has nothing to do with how it is piped with the exception of the tee on the side. Those Taco "Scoop Tee's" can be problematic. B&G's have a groove in them. As long as the groove is facing the other tee, it is always piped properly. I have NEVER seen anyone install a throttling valve between the tees. It isn't needed. Pull the unit out and make sure that the hoses aren't kinked.
I have installed Mono-Flo's on the side and they worked fine. They may work better rising on a 45 degree angle or verticle. But if that was a B&G, and the groove was facing the other tee, it would be working. If the flow is going in the direction of the arrow, and it is on the supply, it will work better on the return side. But it still should work. I just find that the B&G's with a venturi orifice just works better.
But there is no reason that the heater isn't working properly. There is another problem.
I had a problem...once where the boiler did not have a good airscoop/ air scrubber and the toekick heater would work for a time ...then not. The air kept getting into that loop and air locking it ... I like the simple 3/4x1/2x1/2 approach.
Monoflow teeThat particular tee is piped in correct but I would change the orientation of the return.I usually pipe the toe kick in with copper and leave a bleeder valve on inlet.If it doesnt work I would suggest as the others have said to install a globe valve and throttle the flow.good luck with it
Yours is installed different than mine, but mine is workingOurs is installed as per the instructions. I believe exactly 12 inches between the monoflow Ts. Two monoflow T pointed with the arrows at each other. They are both flowing upwards.
Also have a ball valve in between the two Ts so that we can bleed the unit out easier and temporarily force the flow through it. Then once bled, open up that valve to permit flow through both areas.
And shut off valves with bleeders going to the unit itself for bypass and service purposes.
It works fine for us.
Monoflo Tee - return sideI stumbled upon this post as I am going to install a Toe Kick heater as well and wanted to get a couple reference points. One thing I noticed is that it sounds like you you installed the Monoflo / Venturi on the supply side.
I am installing an Embassy HAV-3 and the direction I have instruct to install the monoflow on the Return side with a standard Tee on the Supply side. At a glance it may not seem to make sense, but as others have indicated, it's all about water pressure and finding the path of least resistance.
The instruction I have also suggest to install an air scoop in the return side.
I found the following link also helpful in understanding the monoflo tee.
Nice to know:Its nice to know I was probably doing something wrong for years, didn't know it, and never had a problem doing it. I always put Monoflow's on the return with the flow arrow in the proper direction. That's the way I was taught by the older-timers.
I never had a toe kick heater on a 3/4" series loop baseboard zone that didn't work. The only ones I ever saw that didn't work were installed by others that series looped through the toe kick and after going through the toe kick, the water was substantially cooled. Like 3/4"X1/2" ells and/or couplings into the 3/4" series loop circuit main.
I've been grateful to learn I was doing it wrong. I wish I knew then what I have learned now. If it hadn't worked then, I would have done it differently. Unfortunately for me, it always worked. And I had to use the fan speed motor to control the output. I always used them in bathrooms under cabinets. The heat loss for normal bathrooms is around 1,000 BTU's, maybe 1,800 BTU's. The smallest kick heater is 4200+ BTU's on high speed. On low speed, 2100. I never had a complaint about a cold bathroom. Maybe they kept it on high, maybe they liked it on low. But they must have been happy. They didn't complain. They all shared a 007 or similar circulator. I guess I was just lucky.
I did see problems with animal dander.
Monoflo - Return Side is CorrectI guess my point was that using the monoflo Tee on the "RETURN" side is correct at least from my reading. So the old timers were in fact correct. TOM_A indicated in his original reply to you (icesailor) that he installed his original monoflo tee on the Supply side, which would be incorrect if using a single Monoflo.
This may be why he had a problem with getting the hot water to flow through the toe kick.
Flowing:Every Toe Kick heater I ever installed had a hot inlet and a cold outlet. They also had a air bleeder. All the ones I ever installed took very little bleeding if the radiators on either side were bled or if it was in a series loop baseboard. Beacon Morris needed an access panel unless you hooked it up with hoses and could pull it out. Myson and Toasters had vents in the front along with Smith's Environmental, the BEST of all. They make a floor mounted unit that is superior to all the rest and aren't just something stuck in a box. If you're having a problem, there really is a undiagnosed problem. Once I had the series loop baseboard purged and heating, the toe kicks were usually working by themselves and vented. Do you have enough system pressure when you are venting & purging?
Bleeder on toe kickI do not know if Myson has this feature but check the front face of the toe kick. It may have a built-in bleeder valve. This has worked for me.