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    How High The Header? (24 Posts)

  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 11:41 PM
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    How High The Header?

    I've been wondering about drop header design. Assuming you have plenty of headroom, is it better to keep the header close to the boiler or raise it up. I can see that the high header would result in more condensation running back down the risers, but which would give you drier steam?

    Second question--no picture for this one. Assuming the first picture is best, and assuming the risers are 2" and the header is 3", if you need to supply two main branches, would it be better piped as shown, or with a single 3" supply riser with a 2" x 2" x 3" tee at the top?
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 2:02 AM
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    The higher the risers

    the dryer the steam. This is because water is trying to get UP the risers with the steam, but it can't rise higher than 24 inches or so. This is why piping diagrams specify a minimum riser height of 24 inches above the highest possible water level.

    Wherever possible, each steam main should have its own takeoff from the header.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 10:43 PM
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    Which risers?

    Should the boiler risers be as high as possible or the supply risers?

    Thanks for clearing up that other question. I had no idea how to figure that one out.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Rod Rod @ 2:30 PM
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    Pipe Drawing

    Hi- I was wondering what you used for a drawing program? Your pipe drawing are very nice!
    - Rod
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 10:30 PM
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    Drawing

    Thanks, Rod. I used a Mac program called OmniGraffle. They only make it for Macs and iPads. I usually use it for flow charts, ERDs, DFDs and other diagrams. It works for this kind of thing but it's time-consuming. I've tried to find stencils for pipes and fittings, but no luck, so I'm working on one, but it's slow going.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Dave in QCA Dave in QCA @ 9:11 AM
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    Boiler risers

    I am sure that Steamhead was referring to the boiler risers in his post, as he refers to manufacturer recommendations regarding boiler risers.  There are no specific recommendations for the height of risers between a header and the steam mains.

    And, I second Rod's comments on your drawings!  Fantastic!
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 10:12 AM
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    Thanks x 2

    Thanks for the clarification and the compliment.

    What I'd really like is a program with a palette of fittings and nipples that you could just drop into a canvas and rotate them and fit them together to build a 3D model of what you're going to build, so if you know the dimensions, you'd know what to buy in advance. Unfortunately, I'm finding that the dimensions of fittings vary a lot from one manufacturer to another, and accounting for that would be really complicated, but it wouldn't be very useful without it.

    It's interesting to think about though. It really makes me appreciate how the pros are able to pull off these feats of engineering without a software tool like this, other than the one they carry around between their ears. I mean, they somehow are able to build out these systems without running back and forth to the hardware store a hundred times and still get all the dimensions right so steam and water go where they're supposed to without getting in each other's way. That's a truly amazing skill.

    Anyway, I guess, from what Steamhead said, the important thing is to make the boiler risers go straight up to at least 24" above the maximum water level, but anything more than that would probably be overkill.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Ron Jr. Ron Jr. @ 11:25 AM
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    Beautiful piping diagrams !

    Hope to get a Ipad 2 once the price comes down , since the 3 came out .

    The trick to piping the headers quick and nice is to have ALL the fittings and nipples on hand at the install . We carry at least 4 of each size from close to 24 inches and some 36ers . Nothing slows a steam job down more than having to go to a supply house to get a 2 inch union . Or to cut and thread an 18 inch nip ! By hand in our case ......

    Where you connect the boiler header to the system main isn't too critical in my opinion . If your system is clean and clear of oils , I think you'll only get condensation from the cold piping going up the boiler riser . And that's minimal till the piping is steam hot . We tend to connect our boiler main to the system main high up . Always 24 inch minimum also .

    Good luck with your steam project !
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 5:42 AM
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    Thanks for the input

    Reducing condensation was the reason I was wondering about using a single 3" system riser instead of 2 2". Same volume, less surface area. I'm currently not getting any carryover as far as I can tell, in spite of the, shall we say. unusual near boiler piping.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009 crash2009 @ 6:58 PM
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    Hi Hap

    Here is a shortcut to Dan's video on near boiler piping.  Dan suggests 24" above the top of the boiler.  Consider installing King Valves and a Hartford Valve, they sure do make life easy at cleaning time. 

    http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping

    Also, I had a little discussion with Boilerpro and Gerry awhile back and got their comments on spacing the risers- both boiler and system. 

    http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/140318/Burnham-IN11-Header-Question
    This post was edited by an admin on March 17, 2012 6:59 PM.
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 9:15 PM
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    Hey, Crash

    I'm definitely adding king valves and a Hartford valve, and I thought I'd put one on the return pipe too. That's where the crud tended to built up in the past, and it's a 2" pipe tapped right into the bottom of the boiler.

    The video I'd seen, but I missed that discussion about headers and riser spacing. I guess you saw from my drawing that I had a couple of misconceptions about that. I'm glad I didn't order the parts yet. Now, when they say pipe diameters, do they mean the diameter of the risers or the header?

    I'm looking forward to getting started on this, but, even though it's looking like spring here, I have a feeling if I tear down my boiler it'll snow tomorrow. When I take the risers apart I'm going to be tempted to stick my pressure washer wand in there and blast everything I can reach. Should I give in, or would I regret it?
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009 crash2009 @ 10:38 PM
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    24 inches from the top of the boiler

    What I got out of that discussion was...If the header is going to be 3", the entrance to the system riser should be increased to nearly the same as the header.  System take-offs should be 2.5 to 3" then reduced to whatever your system mains are.  The guy I hired, did mine that way, I didn't even know it was important at the time it was built.  We did the symetrical type install with very little space between 2 and 3.  I can see the importance of having a few pipe diameters between them, but so far on mine, I have noticed no ill effects.  The advice over in that IN11 thread might be specifically for that model.  I just sent you over there to get some more ideas for your project.  Speaking about model, which one are you going to re-pipe? 

    This March weather has been great hasn't it.  March has tricked me before, it will probably get cold again.  Check with Farmers Almanac.  2011-12 has had weird weather.  It's been a long time since Washtenaw County has had a tornado, we just had one a couple days ago.  Who knows what the weather will do next.  I would wait till the end of April unless you have a 3 man crew, and you can knock it out in a couple days.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 17, 2012 10:43 PM.
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 1:06 AM
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    A couple days???

    That'll happen. :)

    I'm afraid to put my snowblower away. I got it after the October blizzard and only used it once. The rest of the time it's been sitting out back staring menacingly at the driveway, daring it to snow. Best money I ever spent.

    I'll be repiping my Peerless G-561. (See picture.) The real problem that needs correcting is the way the risers are connected together below the swing arms. It's a wonder it hasn't pried the sections apart. While I'm at it I'm going to move the main branches out so they run closer to the wall, so I'll be able to raise the ceiling. Oh yeah--I'm remodeling my basement too.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 5:53 AM
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    New sketches

    I made a couple of sketches with a little more detail so I could figure out what sizes of 3" nipples I need to order. I'm hoping I'll have enough 2" pipe and fittings if I just reuse what I've got. I haven't shown the king valves because I haven't gotten around to drawing them yet. :-)

    I decided not to use 3" to 2" reducers on the system risers because it would add too much to the cost and I'm not really sure I need them. Peerless recommends a single 2" riser and a 2 1/2" header for this boiler, so there's already a lot of overkill.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009 crash2009 @ 10:11 PM
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    I like that drawing program

      The picture background greys-out when you click on it.  Looks good!  Got one little suggestion for you, that you might have thought of all-ready.  On the bottom of the equalizer you might want to reduce it higher up.  (farther from the floor)  The hartford will need to go right where the reducer is.   Sorry I havn't been around much lately.....My main TV blew up.  Got one of those new ones, network, dlna, streaming, internet, etc.  Found out all my computers were crap.  Been busy upgrading all the workstations.
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 5:57 AM
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    Sounds like me about 4 months ago.

    I was so ready to pull the trigger on a plasma, when my old Sony went belly up I just about danced on its grave instead of fixing it. I'd never heard of DLNA before, but I downloaded this free app called TVMOBLI to my web server and had it up and running in two minutes. Now I just need to get my other linux server running so i can move the DLNA server to that.

    Regarding the equalizer, Steamhead mentioned something about taking the larger pipe size right down to the water line, and that sounded like a good idea. Currently I have a 1" equalizer, and there's a union at the water line, then a 4" nipple to the tee for the water hookup, then the Hartford tee. So I could put the 2" - 1" reducer right where the union is and leave everything below it as-is, or even raise the Hartford tee and the make-up water tee and still take the 2" pipe right down to the water line.

    I think the Hartford is supposed to be about 2" below the minimum water level, which I take to be the bottom of the gauge glass.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009 crash2009 @ 6:40 PM
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    See the Steam

    I started out with the DLNA server from Samsung, and was thinking about something different for the server.  That was, until I found out about Win 7 and Media Center.  Then, I wanted 7 on everything so you know how that goes...CPU here, Video card there, some Ram for this and that, Power supply here and there, and move the dumpster closer to the back door.  I am really enjoying the upgrades.  I stream any movie to everywhere, and watch 5 TV channels at the same time.  Bla, Bla, I am lovin it. 

    You mentioned some experience with Linux, and I know you are busy with your boiler project, but maybe someday you might have some spare time.  Have a look at these 3 videos that were made with a software called Featflow.  I tried to make it run in a windows shell, then gave up.  Maybe this is something easy for you with your Linux experience.  Would be nice to SEE the steam in your header.
    http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/130487/Does-steam-look-like-this
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 7:50 PM
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    I got them on my Mac.

    I extracted the mpeg video out of the flash swf on the server. Is that the format you had it in or did they transcode it for you? Anyway, you should be able to play mp4 files anywhere--even on windows! ;-)

    If you want I can e-mail them to you.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009 crash2009 @ 8:22 PM
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    featflow

    Yes, thanks.  MP4 would be better than having to go to Youtube all the time to see it.  I was trying to twist your arm to actually build a header within Featflow and create a header video, not just a bulhead T.  Still though, it's nice to see how the steam moves.
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 9:24 PM
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    Okay, I'll take a look when I get a chance

    I don't have a fortran77 compiler on my Mac, but I can give it a shot on my server when I can find the time. I'm not even sure if it will still build and run, but I grabbed the 13 year old "current" release and the five year old release candidate for the next version. I wonder why they never released it.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • crash2009 crash2009 @ 10:11 PM
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    S _ _ T

    Double Post, I hate laptops.
    This post was edited by an admin on April 4, 2012 10:14 PM.
  • Dave in QCA Dave in QCA @ 9:13 AM
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    How High the Header?

    Ever since this thread was first posted, it keeps me thinking of a musical track by Les Paul and Mary Ford, "How High The Moon."  Les Paul of course, the inventor of the solid body electric guitar, multi-track recording, overdubbing, and many more.  If he had been able to figure out how to make a steam guitar, I'm sure he would have.
    I know this is the wrong forum, but I thought there might be one or two of you that would enjoy it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZFKeyGpgK0 
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • crash2009 crash2009 @ 6:51 PM
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    HeHe

    That was a nice break from the monotony of reading.  Educational too!  I thought Les Paul was a guitar, you have really dated yourself Dave.
  • Hap_Hazzard Hap_Hazzard @ 7:11 PM
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    Loved Les Paul

    I was one of those dummies who figured out how to play How High the Moon before I knew he had overdubbed it. I knew about dubbing, but I didn't know anybody was doing it "way back then." :-)
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S

    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
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