This thread has been bookmarked. Visit your bookmarked threads to review.
Post a Reply to this Thread
Residential Booster Pump (28 Posts)
Residential Booster Pump(EDIT: Photos and video below!)
Hey there Wallies,
I have a client with a very big residential water pressure issue. 4gpm @ 30psi .....
And thats domestic pressure, not boiler pressure.
It is due to high elevation and not a broken gate valve or partial closed ball / soft seat valve.
There are many residential pump manufactures and various setups.
Please advise reading material, and links to help me find a proper setup. The local plumbing supply houses havent been of any help, but thats no news.:NYplumber:This post was edited by an admin on May 15, 2012 9:13 PM.
Raising water pressure:Any one of these will do the job.
I've used them a lot.
minimum 10Minimum inlet flow on these unita are 10gpm. On a good day the slient downt have half of that.
Thanks icesalor, I will contact Amtrol.:NYplumber:
Try Grundfos...They make a series of pressure boosters that don't need a tank, are soft start and variable speed. I've seen numerous of them deployed in the filed, and only saw one that had issues, and it was on a well system that is loaded with sulphur and iron.
MEIt's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
pressure or flow?Or both? If they can only get 4 GPM through the pipe, you're going to need a big tank.
BothThey're looking to take regular showers, and not worry that a toilet flush, washing machine, kitchen sink, or even another shower simultaneously.
I have done a few booster pump installs that were spec'ed by others. This will be an all inclusive spec and install by my company. A simple Google brings up a vast array of pumps, but I'm lost.
The grundfos Mark linked doesn't look to be sufficient. From the graphs it may be too small.:NYplumber:
Boosting Water:There are many roads from Los Angeles to New York. It depends on how you want to get there.
Someone once asked me how they could raise the water temperature in a lot of water in tanks where he wanted to raise Scallops. He needed to raise the water temperature to make the fish ovulate and "Spat). I asked him how much water? 20,000 gallons. I asked him if he had to do it in an hour or longer, how much longer? Two or three days.
If you need to raise the water temperature of 20,000 gallons of water in an hour, you need a lot of energy. If you can do the same over a longer period of time, it will save money. and use less energy.
Understand that it is atmospheric pressure that is pushing the water through the pipe. If you connect a pump to the inlet pipe and turn it on, you have theoretically raised the elevation of the water source because the atmospheric pressure on the pipe somewhere will push it harder. For example, if you put a compound vacuum gauge on the inlet/service pipe and you have 40# at the service where it enters the building, and you turn on a faucet at the same location, the pressure will drop. But it will only drop to equal the flow. If you can artificially increase the flow, the pressure will drop more. Maybe I'm loosing you, but if you put a booster pump on the service, the service pressure will drop while the pump is running. The water flow through the pump will self regulate as the pressure goes up. The higher the system pressure, the lower the flow rate through the pump.
This may loose you. You are thinking in the way that submersible pumps work. But, "jet pumps" work in a different way. And if you have a low yielding well, say 4 GPM, and you have a 4" well that has 100' of water in it, and you install a 35' tail pipe on the ejector assembly and set the pipe just above the screen, you have all the water volume in the 4" pipe to the top pf the screen. However, 33' is the maximum theoretical lift you can lift water but 25' to 27' is considered the maximum practical lift for a pump, lifting water. So, when you turn on a 12 GPM pump in a 4 GPM well, the water draws down to the equilibrium point where 4 GPM is flowing into the well and 4 GPM is being pumped out of the well. If the water level and suction increases, it automatically (with the help of Mother Nature, decreases the flow because as the vacuum goes up, the pressure goes down. Like in a heating system.
I had a client with a three tennis courts. They needed to water the courts. There was an available 1" copper water service. They had 65# static water pressure. But no where enough to water the courts even when zoned. I put an Amtrol Pressurizer on it. The courts water fine now. The inlet pressure going to the pump has never gone below 15#. If you find that you need more stored pressure, that's what they make storage tanks for. Two or three great big ones. Amtrol will try to sell you far more than you need. You can always add more.
Hope this is understandable and helps. If you have any questions, ask.
Probably the highest cost booster system available but well worth it with no storage, quiet and energy efficient ECM motors
Pumping WaterI guess you didn't understand my example of the deep well.
If you deliver 4 GPM per minutes at 30# PSIG, that's 240 gallons per hour. However, if the house is on a hill. and at the end of the service system, the water pressure at the bottom of the hill may be 40# PSIG or more. With the 40# PSIG, the flow will be higher.
It is MY experience that if you put the service pipe under a vacuum, it makes the service system "see" a higher head pressure, that will increase the GPM output. You must store as much water as you need and can afford.
What Grundfoss and Amtrol are telling you that you need may be serious over kill. I've installed successful water booster systems using a standard Myers HJ 50, 1/2 Hp well pump and an Amtrol WX 203 with check valves.
This isn't a complicated issue. Don't over think it and especially, don't overspend it.
UpdateWe are looking in to multiple designs. Thanks for the help.:NYplumber:
Booster pumpTake a look at using Aquaboost II made by Goulds Pumps. Set the system at 50 or 60 PSI and the pump will give constant pressure no matter how many faucets that are open. Control on pump takes 230 V single phase and the converts it to 230 V three phase and the motor runs faster as more faucets are opened and then slows down as faucets are closed. Great system.
Bags:You can't put 10# of equine meadow muffins in a 5# bag.
You can't use 6 GPM in a 4 GPM water service without sooner or later, running out of water or the flow dropping to 4 GPM. Please figure out what you are saying. Even if you use variable speed pumps, you will run out of water. You MUST store it for what you will need. It isn't much. Don't oversize or over pump it. This isn't a complicated fix. Don't over think it.
PUTTING THE WATER SERVICE UNDER SUCTION INCREASES THE HEAD OF THE SUPPLY SYSTEM!!!!!
storageIcesalor, do you put the storage after or before the pump (or both)?
One manufacture is telling me to remeasure right after the meter (install a full port T & ball valve), and see the available flow during a high usage time (evening).
I have been advised that installing tanks with vacuum breakers before the tank, and all will be ok.
With storage before the pump, MEs link in the post above may be more than sufficient.
Thanks for the help folks.:NYplumber:
Pumps & By-Passes:Usually, the installer installs a "By-Pass" at the service and two tees and three valves are installed. The pump goes first and MUST pump into the tank. The By-pass is closed so that the pump pressure goes into the tank and system. You can't put the tank before the pump because the tank will see a lower pressure than the pump. You need the by-pass so that if there is a pump problem, you can isolate the booster system by closing the flow valves and opening the by-pass valve.
Depending on what your needs are, you can make it very complicated and expensive, or very reasonable and not so high tech. With the same results.
For example, look at this pump curve for a 1/2 HP jet pump. Because the pump inlet should always see positive pressure, it should not see any vacuum so the incoming pressure is like it is coming through the first stage of a two stage pump. It raises the pressure and volume of the first stage or incoming water. Therefore, this 1/2 HP HJ 50 pump has the potential of pumping 17 GPM. Theoretically.
The latest rage in pumps is variable speed motors or motor controllers.
Then, there's these. Amtrols. One unit with variable motor speed comtrollers. Plug and play. Connect the service inlet to the pump inlet and outlet to the service outlet with the by-pass and you are good to go. It woeks. Just be sure to install the check valve on the service inlet so you don't try to pressurize the water system.
http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/pressure_booster/MC4310_06_11_PressuriserBrochurelr.pdfThis post was edited by an admin on April 22, 2012 9:13 AM.
Piping Schematic.:NYplumber:This post was edited by an admin on May 3, 2012 1:09 PM.
QuestionsIs there a vertical component to this, and if so, where is it in the diagram?
What pressure are you storing at? Guessing the PRV might be to reduce high storage pressure.
what isA vertical component?:NYplumber:
sorryA significant difference in elevation between the main and the point of use.
ElevationThere is no difference in elevation between the main and the point of use. The home is located at the highest point of its local area.
Incoming water pressure was ~25psi @ 4gpm during the morning when all homes and businesses are using water.
Hopefully this booster pump keeps a happy customer.:NYplumber:
City Pressure:What is the city/system pressure at 2:00 AM in the morning when the city doesn't have much draw? If it is 40# or such and drops to 25# at 9:00 AM, the city needs to up-grade their system. If it is local, and only in the area of this house, than the city needs to add a booster pump system in this area. It sounds more to me (now) like this is a city problem. That's why I wouldn't get nuts spending a lot of cash on a temporary project and needed fix.
If I get a chance, I'll try to post one I did years ago to solve this same problem. But it was a Cape house with a bath on the second floor. The second floor baths were the bigger problem. They had 35# static pressure. The water company put in a new tank that raises the pressure to 65#. The pump isn't needed anymore.
City waterAt two AM it may jump to 35-40#. The city hasn't done anything yet, and likely won't.
By the city adding tanks, I assume you mean they added them to the water system and not the individual home.
It's less of a city wide issue and more of a local area issue.
Post up a photo of the pump install on that home, I would be interested to see it.
Thanks for the comments guys.:NYplumber:This post was edited by an admin on April 25, 2012 11:11 AM.
City/Local Pressure:Actually, it IS their (the city's) problem.
If you have 40# at 2:00 AM and it drops to 30# during the day or peak times, the mains in the area are undersized and need to be upgraded. I'm sure that there are fire hydrants in the system and the fire protection isn't what it should be. I'll bet that a flow test on the last hydrant in this area wouldn't pass flow requirements.
I have a 1 1/2 story Cape house with a full basement. The well pressure tank is in the cellar. The pressure switch is 40#/60#. The switch and tank are in the cellar. I shower on the second floor because I get up at 4:15 AM to go to work. I don't want to bother my wife, downstairs. My shower is fine to me. Hers is so powerful that it hurts me. She hates my shower. It's too weak. Hers is just fine to her.
You can feel a difference.
I was just about to askwhat the local utility has as far as service standards.
Booster Pumps:Here is a booster system I installed 22 years ago in a crawl space. It is the origonal Extrol tank and is on the second pump. a Myers HJ 50S pump. The poly pipe is to keep the vibration of the pump running from being heard in the house. You can't hear it when it is running. It is under the living room of a very expensive summer home.
Thanks for the photosJust curious, why the use of a spring check and not a swing?:NYplumber:
Check Valves:You always use Popppit-Type check valves on wells. For one, they don't "clank" shut.
I doubt that you will ever see a brass swing check on a well pump. I believe it is considered bad practice.
swingThanks icesalor for teaching me. I suppose I should return the swing checks that the supply house sent.:NYplumber:This post was edited by an admin on May 4, 2012 8:27 AM.
PhotosPhotos and a short video of the job complete.
The customer is ecstatic!
It builds up to ~95psi, and distributes 60psi to the home.
The pump is quiet with a small hum, and quiet sans vibrations due to it being properly lag bolted to the wall.
(Sarcasm) Most likely sucking the water out of the neighbors toilets.
Video of the pump in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBZS9yyxhA8
:NYplumber:This post was edited by an admin on May 15, 2012 3:59 PM.