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    Anything wrong with this baseboard? (21 Posts)

  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 11:21 PM
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    Anything wrong with this baseboard?

    How many BTU's per foot can be expected in this room compared to the stated rating?
    This post was edited by an admin on April 18, 2012 11:23 PM.
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 11:55 PM
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    I hate to say it

    I have seen that before. the answer is not much convection going on there at all. maybe 20% of the rated output. so that 120 btu's per foot. drain it, cut it, turn it 90 degrees, and reinstall it. The crowd goes wild as the room feels so toasty now!
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 1:07 AM
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    Should I rotate it clockwise or counter clockwise?

    Just kidding:) 

    This office was being heated by the boiler which was located almost directly beneath it for 20 plus years.  The pastor said the floor used to be warmer with the old boiler. 

    The new well insulated low mass boiler I installed last summer/fall doesn't heat the floor as well!

    I'm embarrassed at how long it took (with help) to figure it out because it didn't occur to me that the baseboard would be installed wrong.

    As the old saying goes; "Never work for your own church!".
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 1:01 PM
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    It depends....

    Is the water being circulated clock wise, or counter clock wise. Also, does your boiler look round, or square. Because if it is square, its sending out square wave sign BTU's, and they are not compatible with round BTU baseboard pipes.

    Have you ever seen the pipes used with Triangle Tube boilers (he said all of the above with tongue firmly planted in his cheek....)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 9:05 PM
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    Actually, more like an Octagon

    :D
    This post was edited by an admin on May 10, 2012 9:07 PM.
  • Jim Hankinson Jim Hankinson @ 9:11 AM
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    Radiant heat

    Carl, until you got rid of the boat anchor the office was kept warm by radiant heat.
    When we bought our house 15 years ago it had been empty for several years. It had been poorly winterized so a lot of the baseboard had to be replaced. I found the same thing you did, the fins were a quarter turn off. The only room that was correct had been added on much later.
  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 12:17 AM
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    I figured this room regressed to the other room.

    The other office with baseboard was unable to supply enough heat so I added 4 feet of slantfin 80 and it heats better.  The element in the other office could not be installed wrong because it is the same on all sides.  I figured since the new boiler wasn't radiating the heat all the time, the pastors office became under radiated like the other office.  It did seem like there should have been enough baseboard to heat the room though.

    I am relieved and happy that the remedy is to flip the element rather than having to spend a few hundred bucks on higher output baseboard.  It is enough to make me tear my hair out though.
    This post was edited by an admin on April 20, 2012 12:35 AM.
  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 10:14 PM
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    Update!

    I rotated the approximately 15 feet of baseboard element 90 degrees on April  28th.  That night, the outside temperature dropped to around 38 degrees F.  I set the temperature back to 63 degrees that night.  It took 3 hours to bring the temperature up to 71 degrees in the morning.  

    In the other room where there was 12 feet of I believe slantfin 30, I previously added a 4 feet section of slantfin 80.  If there was 6000 BTUs before the additional baseboard and the new baseboard added 3200 BTUs for a bit more than a 50 increase in BTUs, I thought I was going to get a lot more heat by rotating the baseboard in the first room.  This room previously heated about as poorly as the other room and the added baseboard made it so it raised the temp 8 degrees in an hour. 

    I figured only a 50 percent BTU output increase in the first room would be plenty but  it was not to be.  The metal strip running along the middle did not cut convection as much as I thought if at all.  Each room is its own zone
  • icesailor icesailor @ 7:39 AM
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    Hedat loss calculation

    You need to do a room by room heat loss calculation. You need to compare the loss in each room and compare it to the installed radiation.
    It isn't instant. Eight degrees in an hour is reasonable to me. If each room is a zone into itself, you may not have proper flow through the units. You need to use a infra-red heat gun thermometer and see what you are getting for flow temperatures and interpret what you have.
  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 8:52 PM
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    I would have been happy with 8 degrees an hour.

    I am happy with the 8 degrees an hour in the room I added the 4 feet of #80. 

    In the room I rotated the baseboard, it went from 1 or 2 degrees an hour to 2 or 3 degrees an hour.  (8 degrees in 3 hours when the outside temperature was rising from 38 to 40 plus.  I was not there to see if the room got as cold as the setback setting but it was 4 degrees above the setback setting when I got there an 1 1/2 hours after the thermostat was set to call the boiler.)

    According the the Grundfos Alpha circulator I had 4  GPM of flow when one zone was calling and 8 to 9 GPM when both were calling.  I piped the small zones directly with the Alpha and zone valves and the large air handler zones; one for the Sanctuary and the other for the basement pri/sec.  The larger zones had been heating quicker than the small baseboard zones until I added more baseboard. 

    I think I will have to replace the baseboard with higher output stuff in order to be able to do heavy setback so we can take advantage of the pre and post purge feature of this boiler and not have the temperature at 180 plus for hours at a time.   
    This post was edited by an admin on May 10, 2012 9:21 PM.
  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 9:35 PM
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    Temperature directly above the baseboard

    I don't have an infrared thermometer but what should the temperature be right above the baseboard element in slantfin #30 if there is 600 BTU's of output coming out of it?
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 10:16 AM
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    what I'm seeing

    is a rug that is not allowing air to pass under the baseboard. Slant Fin is not all that when it comes to baseboard, I would go Haydon if you plan on replacing it. 
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 12:56 PM
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    Cuttin' the rug...

    Good eye Bill. If it can't get in (air) it can't get out (heated air). But it makes one heck of a good cat hair filter ;-)

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 8:58 PM
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    Thanks Bill

    I'll look into Haydon.  I thought about the airflow underneath and I believe there is enough.  The picture is deceiving because we are viewing it from an upward angle.  There is a good couple of inches of clearance between the slantfin and the rug.  I'll have to see if there is a measurable difference between the baseboard and the rug in the badly heating room and the well heated room. 
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 12:03 PM
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    are you sure that

    the pipes were bled of all air?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 10:11 PM
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    no doubt

    the fins facing as they were is not a benefit. Is this a monoflow, zip, or split loop?
  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 10:35 PM
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    Not sure what you mean by zip

    The zone which I rotated the fins is mostly 3/4 copper with 15 feet of element and less than 50 feet of total pipe; the supply has the the circ, splits and reduces to 3/4, goes through the zone valve, to the room, back, connects with the other zone on the return, expands to 1", has the purge set up, and back to the boiler.

    How's that for a runon sentence?

    The other better working zone has about 80 feet of copper.
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 9:20 AM
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    If it really

    "connects with the other zone on the return, expands to 1" "

    in that order, that may be why the zone doesn't work so well. The transition from 3/4" to 1" should be at or before the two zone returns connect.
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  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 6:28 PM
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    If I remember correctly

    The 1" connection is at the bull of the tee.  The two 3/4 inch pipes connect at the tee and the 1" goes down.  The other zone return that connects to the tee is now working well. 

    If it is wrong, wouldn't I have trouble getting 4 GPM flow?
    This post was edited by an admin on May 11, 2012 6:30 PM.
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 8:42 PM
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    pics would help

    Frank raises a good point. Sounds like it is piped OK. You have 2 zones, 1" branches off to feed both 3/4 zones, and the same as it returns to the boiler, if I understand you right. Also how is this zoned? Circs, zone valves? Taco 571's can only partially open when a call for heat. You could have these. Also what thermostats do you have? Anticipator or cycle rate set to match zone controls? Pics, pics, pics please 
  • chapchap70 chapchap70 @ 2:34 AM
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    Pictures

    There was an issue from the beginning with the old boiler (Weil McLain 576) there as well.  Each zone had its own 007 circulator and loop but the aquastat was set at 190 and 210 for some reason.  There would be no need for that temp for the air handlers and certainly shouldn't need it for these small zones but even with that temperature, the office that I added baseboard to to get enough heat never heated well.  I could set the return temp to 175 and 190 to get more out of the baseboard but I think it is a waste to run such a big boiler that hot just to heat 20,000 BTUs for offices during the week.  As Jim H said, the office where I rotated the baseboard was most likely being heated by the boiler since it is almost directly above the boiler room. 

    I have an Erie Zone Valve which does the room that is heating well now.  The Erie came as part of the hot water kit but I used a separate circulator instead.  The storage tank/PHE is upstairs.  The Honeywell does the office zone where I rotated the baseboard.  The Alpha circulator is on the supply; below the zone valves and I removed the IFC.  I didn't take a picture of the top of the return piping where the 3/4 piping comes into the tee.  The return for the smaller zones is the one where you can see the boiler drain with the red valve.  Below that, the piping enters into the 1 1/2" tee than down into the boiler.
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