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    Lochinvar listens.... (23 Posts)

  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 7:31 PM
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    Lochinvar listens....

    AND responds.

    We've been telling ALL high efficiency manufacturers to come out with a good quality, low input, high turn down boiler for smallish applications, and those super insulated homes for years, to no avail.

    Well, it seems that SOMEONE spelled Lochinvar, was listening, and they now have a new product called the Cadet which has a bottom end of 40K btuH, with a turn down to 9K tbuH, all the way up to a 120K btuH input with a turn down to 24 K btuH. This new boiler is obviously a direct competitor to some of the low cost modcons hitting the market. I like the fact that they can be sized so low for apartment unit heating, and super insulated homes.

    So, what do you think Wallies?

    Good Job Lochinvar. This is but one of many reasons I like this company. We speak, they listen, and then they react.

    Heres a PDF with some more specifics.

    Enjoy!

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Chris Chris @ 7:44 PM
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    Is That

    A Giannoni hx? Love the low end but not a fan of the hx if it is what I think it is. Just too many bad past experiences with it. Now get that down fire hx to do that and its a grand slam. Love to see that atleast someone is listening and making strides to get a product out with a lower end firing rate. It has a home and I'm sure they will do very well with it. Hats off to them.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • NYplumber NYplumber @ 8:04 PM
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    MASS

    Thanks Mark for posting.

    Talk about low mass!

    Great as a small (size & btuh rating) boiler, but in any application that requires more than the combi can handle in the dhw application, will push most to the WHN series.

    Where does this compare to the Viessmann boiler line up?
    :NYplumber:
    This post was edited by an admin on May 16, 2012 8:05 PM.
  • Chris Chris @ 8:20 PM
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    Vitodens 100

    Would be the comparison. The boiler Mark posted has a lower firing end and the smallest 100 is 93k input. I love the approach but just not a fan of the hx if it is what I think it is. Too many bad apples with it in other mfg boilers and I can't get that taste out.

    Not enough information on the combi to give a comparison to the Viessmann CombiPlus.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:14 PM
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    Their other boilers are completely different...

    The WHN and KBN are still my favorite boilers, and they have the full blown controller with all the bells and whistles. The new boiler comes with minimal control capabilities, which is another way of reducing costs. I really don't see these boilers replacing their KB and WH series boilers. I see these boilers filling a niche market of low cost, mini load applications, like converting an unfinished basement to hydronic radiant ceilings, or small condo/apartment settings.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:44 PM
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    I'm pretty sure its a Gianonni...

    But, I have one that is going on 7 years, and have not had ANY problems with it. This is the Gianonni that has a composite water jacket. Personally, the only time I've had any problems with ANY (pick a name) boiler with a Gianonni heat exchanger on it was when it was incorrectly installed, or improperly set up. My oldest Gianonni is approaching 14 years now, and its had zero problems, but it has been properly maintained.

    I hear what you're saying about the down fire tube heat exchanger being the ultimate, but it would also take the appliance out of the price point that it is intended for. Marketing makes the World go round...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • David107 David107 @ 11:07 PM
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    indirect

    Would 40K be enough to fire an indirect at a reasonable recovery? (Of course a 40K stand alone hwh is enough for many homes.) many mod cons have a special ramp-up output just for HW priority.
  • NRT_Rob NRT_Rob @ 10:40 AM
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    size the indirect

    for the peak DHW load and forget about recovery time. 600 BTU/min is 71 gallon/degrees/minute. so 70 gallon indirect 1 degree/minute. 35 gallon is 2 degree/minute. and that's the small unit.

    obviously there are limits to very small boilers and bigger domestic loads. but if they just have a regular tub, or a couple of showers, this should fit great.
    NRT.Rob
  • Steve Whitbeck Steve Whitbeck @ 9:06 PM
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    Mark E.

    Mark do you know if Lochinvar solved the problem with the pumps shutting off when the boiler hits either of the limits???
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:54 PM
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    Steve...

    I honestly do not know. My suggestion would be to contact Paul Rohr at prohrATlochinvar.com. The AT is actually an @ sign.

    If you were bouncing off of the high limit, it kinda sounds to me like you had other issues in the first place, but not knowing for sure, can't really say. It could also have to do with their ANSI approved control, but again, I am not sure. Just guessing out loud here.

    Let us know what you find.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 7:51 AM
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    Too many Rohrs on this site...

    Steve, it is prohrsATlochinvar.com

    I missed the S on the first round.

    My bad ;-(

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Big Will Big Will @ 10:52 PM
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    I am looking forward to seeing pricing for this

    I sent a info request to my vendor but have not seen the reply yet. the composite jacket is a bit concerning. However I have not seen the HTP version fail yet due to the jacket. not that I want to be the low price leader but it is nice to be able to compete with the lower end smaller boilers. I definitely like working with Lochinvar.  We signed up to be their repair and service contractor in the north bay and it has been a good experience. support is defiantly a huge part of the product. 
  • SpeyFitter SpeyFitter @ 1:39 AM
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    More

    At least they made a bit more "european" as far as having the direct vent air intake pipe into the cabinet, making the cabinet what appears to be sealed or semi-sealed - and using the cabinet as a big fat spot in the direct vent air intake piping to let dirt settle to the bottom as well as the heat exchanger will pre-heat the intake air instead of their knights where they hard pipe the PVC directly into the fan/venturi where you don't get the benefit of any pre-heating.

    I'm not much of a fan of the Giannoni heat exchangers either but they do perform well and are quite compact for what it's worth. It's just their longetivity that is the question for some due to the tube forming characteristics as well as the thickness of the tubing walls. I agree though that it's nice to see some lower turn down boilers. Lochinvar owns that crown now (and has for a while, with their 10,000 to 50,000 Knights, now their smaller 9,000 to 40,000 CADET) as far as having the boiler with the lowest minimum firing rate.
    Class 'A' Gas Fitter - Certified Hydronic Systems Designer - Journeyman Plumber
    This post was edited by an admin on May 18, 2012 1:41 AM.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 1:23 PM
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    European

    I read an article, not long ago, that said in the U.K., they plan on replacing their combi boilers every 5 to 6 years. Let's hope they didn't go too European with it. :-)
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 10:19 AM
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    I remember reading that too

    but they were talking about Germany, not the UK. A quote about parts availability went something like "Five to seven years? (snicker) That's when we replace our equipment."

    Many of today's Americans were influenced by parents or grandparents who lived thru the Great Depression- meaning 1929, not 2008. With some exceptions- cars being one of these- people who lived thru this didn't replace anything that could be repaired. There were plenty of repair shops, large or small, to meet this need.

    Today we live in a throw-away, planned-obsolescence society where anything that malfunctions is simply replaced- like the lawnmower that just needs a new spark plug, oil change and air filter. The Lovely Naoko's sewing machine went haywire recently and she had to go all the way to Westminster, 40 or so miles away, to get to a shop that could fix it.  Here again, all it needed was a proper cleaning, lubrication and a couple adjustments, and it should last much longer.

    Think of all the "embodied energy" that is wasted in this process. Americans have been called wasteful, with some justification, but it seems to me that some other societies have bought into this too.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 11:30 AM
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    Unfortunate

    Built into the calculations for planned-obsolescence is a certain number of premature failures, and a certain number of non-failures. This leads to some horrible experiences for some people that have laid out hard earned money for something that should easily last 20 years, but has been built to last 5. I have heard of electronics manufacturers filming their circuit boards in operation with I.R., and replacing components to make the board run hotter.
  • SpeyFitter SpeyFitter @ 2:45 AM
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    Mistaken?

    I think you mistook what I said and I'm not sure what your intentions are. A lot of early North American Mod-Cons - even a few to this day, including the Knights (WHN, KBN, WBN) pipe the direct vent air directly into the fan, where as boilers like the Viessmann Vitodens, or Buderus GB142's, or the Triangle Tube's pipe the direct vent into the cabinet and let the fan pull air from the cabinet. This is beneficial for several reasons 1) Pre-warms the intake air which slightly increases combustion efficiency 2) Lets the cabinet act as a big slow spot for intake air piping so any debris can settle out 3) Keep the mechanical room cooler as the heat exchanger is not projecting it's heat into the mechanical room but instead using this heat to prewarm the intake air 4) If there was ever a venting leak somewhere in the cabinet from a seal or gasket, or something like that, it would just get reingested instead of spewing out of the cabinet into the boiler room. I fail to see how any of this would compromise reliabliity or durability of the boiler unless you had a major venting leak out of the flue which was causing the boiler to inregest a hell of a lot of it's own flue gas back into the intake.
    Since Mod-Cons are mandated in England, you probably have a lot of hack installers who don't neccessarily install them in favourable conditions. Perhaps some of the mod-cons are oversized, or installed in old systems with a lot of debris which can cause premature erosion of gaskets or seals, or things in general aren't set up right. European made heat exchangers which are quite common over here, such as the Giannoni do not have very thick pipe walls in the tubing. I believe 0.7 mm is their thickness compared to the Vitodens which is 1.5 mm. Also, you have A LOT more of them out there due to this law requirement so your sample size to find failures is a lot more common. Perhaps pricing over there is a lot cheaper for new units versus the cost to have a tech replace a gas valve or combustion van, so perhaps more people might opt for the latest and greatest. Who knows the rationale. But since Hydronics over here on our side of the water are a smidgeon of the heating market in all honesty we don't have the scale or sample size for a worthy comparison to write a similar article to the one you read about combi boilers. No one installs combi boilers over here. We want large indirects so we can take long, hot showers.
    Class 'A' Gas Fitter - Certified Hydronic Systems Designer - Journeyman Plumber
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 10:03 AM
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    Scott

    I meant no disrespect to you. It was just an "off the cuff" remark about the article I read. I used european to identify with the article which came from the U.K., not to try to slam what you were saying. Sorry for the confusion.
          Respectfully,
                           Paul
  • Steve Whitbeck Steve Whitbeck @ 11:23 PM
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    Mark

    The boiler WHN 285 - Was not bouncing off the limits it was just touching the auto reset limit when it was running flat out in space heating mode and switched over to indirect mode. ( I throttled the boiler down to 50% firing in indirect mode)
    We had a week of cold weather here this winter and I had the MHL set at 200*, AHL set at 190*, modulating max temp set at 170* with a 20* delta T.
    At 100 % firing rate at 170* if the boiler switched over to indirect mode it wouldn't throttle down fast enough to not hit the lower limit.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:02 AM
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    Doesn't sound right...

    Have you attempted to contact Paul?

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 1:39 PM
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    Steve

    There are two (2) modes of operation for DHW. In Normal
    Mode, when a DHW demand begins, the control will start
    the DHW pump, turn off the boiler pump (if running), and
    modulate to bring the outlet temperature to the DHW boiler
    set point. The maximum firing rate may be limited in this
    mode if desired.
    In Zone Mode it is assumed that the indirect DHW tank is
    piped as a zone on the primary loop. When a DHW demand
    begins, the control will turn on the DHW pump output, and
    raise the system temperature set point to the DHW boiler set
    point (if higher). The boiler pump will be turned on. The
    system pump may be forced on, forced off, or not changed,
    depending on the System Pump Mode selected (reference
    the Knight Wall Mount Service Manual for details). In this
    mode, any low temperature zones (such as radiant heating)
    may need additional controls to limit the water temperature
    sent to those zones.

    Run it in Zone Mode and force the system pump off. Keeping the boiler pump running should stop the boiler from overshooting the limit.
    This post was edited by an admin on May 23, 2012 1:43 PM.
  • Steve Whitbeck Steve Whitbeck @ 11:59 PM
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    Mark and Paul

    Mark - No I havn't had the time ( work has been crazy here )
    Paul - That is how I have it set up now - But I shouldn't have to do it this way.
    Why would any boiler control turn the pumps off when the boiler overheats?
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 12:35 PM
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    Seems

    like a glitch in the program. There should be time delay built in, before the pump shuts down.
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