The Wall
Forum / THE MAIN WALL / Utica Boiler ignition problem
  • Post a Reply to this Thread

    Utica Boiler ignition problem (28 Posts)

  • ADKEd ADKEd @ 9:11 AM
    Contact this user

    Utica Boiler ignition problem

    We recently installed a Utica UB95M-200 in our new home. It is fired by propane and services radiant heat on one floor, baseboard on another, along with indirect hot water. In total we have 5 zones. The boiler has been going out and we are receiving an E2 error message denoting an igniter problem. Our service tech recently replaced the igniter but the problem persists. Previously we could power down system and reset, but now that method doesn't even help us. We hit -21 the other night and that's a dangerous situation. Any help would be appreciated.
  • todd_ecr todd_ecr @ 9:25 AM
    Contact this user

    95M-200

    I would have him start by checking the LP gas pressure (inlet). We should have a minimum of 10" w.c. when its running in high fire. The combustion should also be checked. We are looking for 10.5-10.8% CO2 in high fire.

    How long has the boiler been installed? Has this been a problem since it was put in? Could you describe the size and length of the venting? Pictures would be helpful.
  • ADKEd ADKEd @ 9:51 AM
    Contact this user

    Boiler

    Thank you for your response. System has been in place 2 years. Only has been a problem the last 4 months but seems to have gotten progressively worse. And now won't even start. It's PVC, about 4" running about 35' up from the basement out above the roof. Unfortunately, don't have pictures to send you as I'm not at the house.

    One other thing....After unit purges and ignitions attempt. Is made, the exhaust pipe shudders violently for 2 or 3 seconds before ignition fails.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 13, 2013 9:57 AM.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 10:02 AM
    Contact this user

    Shudders:

    Then it is firing, the ignition isn't occuring properly.
    Keep calling or find another service tech.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 10:00 AM
    Contact this user

    Gas pipe size:

    I would also check to be sure that the gas piping from the source is what is spec'ed, usually 3/4" IPS. If it was a replacement of an old boiler, it may have been 1/2" IPS or CSST. Read the installation manual and see if it is required to be 3/4" full size to the unit. Even if it only has a 1/2" gas valve, it still is supposed to be piped 3/4" to the valve. And 1/2" CSST is smaller than 1/2" IPS hard pipe.
    You need (or the gas person) to have a gas pressure gauge and test the pressure when the unit isn't running. Then, have it turn on and go through its full range to high fire. If the pressure drops, the piping may need to be addressed. Checking the gas pressure should be checked in every initial set-up. It shouldn't drop much.
    I know of a case where the regulator pressure was set properly but at the high end, The regulator would stick and not return to a normal position, causing something like what you are experiencing. It didn't do it every time. The respected tech that found it wasn't believed but when he replaced the regulator, the problem stopped.
    Check the piping first.
  • todd_ecr todd_ecr @ 10:04 AM
    Contact this user

    95M-200

    Are there any other error codes other than the E02? The E02 indicates ignition failure. If we are getting a good spark at the DSI igniter, then we likely have a fuel/air problem. Start with checking the inlet gas pressure when the unit is running in high fire. Also would recommend removing the burner for inspection.

    This boiler will require insturments such as a combustion analyzer, gas pressure tester/manometer, for proper setup and diagnosis.

    I'm one of the Technical Support Reps at ECR/ Utica. Feel free to call me tomorrow at (315)731-4163
  • ADKEd ADKEd @ 12:09 PM
    Contact this user

    Trouble again

    Thanks for your help with this. We have gotten past this problem. Subsequently we noticed one of our tacos leaking Antifreeze so we replaced seal and repressurized system. Problem now is our display is blank even after system is powered up. Emergency tech is here now but he is unfamiliar with system. How do we get display to boot up? What could be wrong? It's supposed to be 20 below tonight.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:38 PM
    Contact this user

    Low Water Cut Out

    Did you try resetting the low water cut out? It's the small, black button near the display.

    If the "tech" is unfamiliar with the system, then he shouldn't be there attempting repairs. It would be well worth your time and effort to find someone who's competent with mod/con boilers as it appears that "tech" incompetency is the source of your problems and grief.

    Send me a P/M if you can't get it going and I'll try to help.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 9, 2013 8:45 PM.
  • ADKEd ADKEd @ 9:26 PM
    Contact this user

    Low water cut out

    Sir, thanks very much for your suggestion. We have tried that but problem seems to me to be with control module. We get no display at all so we can't even see trouble shooting codes.

    As far as getting qualified tech I should have mentioned that we are in middle of Adirondacks of NY State and things don't always work in same way as they would in a metropolitan area. I must say though that we purchased a Utica boiler since we expected that our local techs to be well versed in a nearby boiler company's products. That was clearly a mistake. We also expected that Utica would take a more proactive role in fixing a "local" problem on a brand new boiler. Clearly we were wrong on both counts. We live and learn. All advice is appreciated.
    7
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:54 PM
    Contact this user

    Low voltage montor

    Remove the smaller top section from the boiler. In the left hand corner at the front is a low voltage monitor. What is lit on it? It may have a small sheet metal cover. See the attachment.

    Are you sure you have power to the boiler?
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 9, 2013 10:01 PM.
  • ADKEd ADKEd @ 7:46 AM
    Contact this user

    Trouble

    We have power to the boiler. When I turn on the power, the boiler powers up, fan works, but the display is blank. Not just blank, but no lights on it, like the display is dead. It does not display any error messages. When I hit the reset button, nothing happens, no sounds, no lights. I'm very curious why you have ruled out a control module failure. We greatly appreciate you taking time out on the weekend to help us with this problem. It is now -24 degrees outside.
  • todd_ecr todd_ecr @ 7:56 AM
    Contact this user

    95M-200

    There are 2 fuses on the MCBA control board. The black cover needs to be removed to access these fuses. The MCBA is the board on the hinged swing panel.

    Just to rule out a potential issue with the line voltage monitor, i would recommend removing the wire on the normally open(N.O.) terminal and placing the wire on the normally closed(N.C.) terminal. The line voltage monitor is on the back side of the upper panel, near the digital display.
  • todd_ecr todd_ecr @ 8:08 AM
    Contact this user

    95M-200

    Ed, i want to reassure you that we will do everything we can do to help. I don't have any problems talking to you over the phone today to try to figure this out. Keep us posted, and if need be i can private message you my phone number.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 11:37 AM
    Contact this user

    Fuses, Control Board

    Todd,

    I appreciate you being on top of this during the weekend when you didn't have to be. The fuses would have been my next move after the line monitor.

    Ed,
    The MCBA control is made by Honeywell and used by many manufacturers. It's very reliable. It's also unlikely that it would have failed on its own at the same moment something else failed and is being repaired. I just don't believe in coincidence like that. When people don't understand how something functions, they want to blame it first because they don't understand it. Not logical, but it's human nature.

    I was trying to eliminate the obvious things in order leading up to the board. As mentioned, the fuses were next. Which brings me to another question: You stated that you had a "Taco leaking" and replaced its seal. Was this a pump or a zone valve? Depending on which, and how it's wired, that could have caused one of the fuses to blow on the MCBA board.

    Todd has graciously offered to help on a day off. I don't know of many or any other manufacturer that would give that kind of support, though I hope others would. My offer stands also. Please contact one of us so we can resolve your problem.

    P.S.
    I am not an employee of ECR, but I am a dealer of their products as well as others.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • todd_ecr todd_ecr @ 12:51 PM
    Contact this user

    95M-200

    I spoke with Ed over the phone. The 24 volt fuse was missing from the MCBA. He had one left, and when installed it blew right away. I explained that we likely have a short in the wiring and that when he locates a new fuse, to disconnect all of the low voltage wires at the low voltage terminal strip(T1-T2, DHW T1-DHW-T2, etc). This way we can determine if we have a short inside the boiler or something external which i suspect is the case. Almost makes me wonder if they had a low voltage wire running up the piping near the pump that was replaced and it got disturbed when replacing the pump.

    Last i spoke with Ed, he was going to go look for a replacement fuse. He is getting some heat from a fireplace and electric heaters, but is without hot water.

    Thanks for the kind words Ironman. As a former HVAC service Tech, i know the job doesn't end at 5 o'clock on Friday. I'm just glad i logged in this morning and was able to help in some way.
  • kcopp kcopp @ 1:02 PM
    Contact this user

    well done...

    you get a star for the day... That is what "the wall" is all about.
  • RobG RobG @ 1:39 PM
    Contact this user

    ADKed

    I think the support you are getting from Utica is superb. Your comment earlier was entirely uncalled for:
     "I must say though that we purchased a Utica boiler since we expected that our local techs to be well versed in a nearby boiler company's products. That was clearly a mistake. We also expected that Utica would take a more proactive role in fixing a "local" problem on a brand new boiler. Clearly we were wrong on both counts."
     Todd at ECR is trying to help you on a Sunday! Just because your service tech was not capable of fixing your problems you are mistakenly blaming the manufaturer who in my opinion is going above and beyond the call of duty in trying to help you!
    By the way, what was the solution to your first problem?
    Kudos to Todd with ECR
    Rob
  • Pughie Pughie @ 1:40 PM
    Contact this user

    circuit breaker

    I used to carry a little plastic 3 amp - 5 amp circuit breaker (got them through
    Carrier, your would find them in their low voltage circuitry on their rooftop units)
    They were perfect for a situations like this, saves going through a bunch of fuses
    until you find the problem.
    Todd, go out on that flat roof above the lunch room you'll find one in that rooftop
    if it's still there.  Just kidding LOL.

                                                             John Pughe
  • todd_ecr todd_ecr @ 2:04 PM
    Contact this user

    Pughie!!

    Hey John!! Wow its been a while. This is the same John Pughe i used to work with at Collis right?..lol

    I dont see any need to retaliate at Ed. He seems very gracious for my assistance. Anyone who has worked in a tech support position knows it takes pretty thick skin as we rarely hear the good and frequently hear the bad.
  • Pughie Pughie @ 2:13 PM
    Contact this user

    jpughe@roadrunner.com

    Right on Toddy!! Oh for the good old days. I'll stop down & visit you one of these days. I think I still have an extra circuit breaker I'll give you.
    P.S. I also think its great your willing to help this gentleman on a weekend. I'll let Scott know how dedicated you are, maybe they'll put something in the old envelope for you.
                                                                      "PUGHIE"
  • RobG RobG @ 2:32 PM
    Contact this user

    Just Venting

    Sorry Todd, I was just venting a little. Could you let us know what the solution to this gentleman's first problem was? We often hear the problem, give advice, and never here what the fix was. It helps us all in the field and cuts down on the phone calls to your office.  
    Thanks,
    Rob
  • ADKEd ADKEd @ 3:42 PM
    Contact this user

    Please don't misunderstand

    Guys, please don't misunderstand, I'm very appreciative of everyone's help. If I'm mad at anyone, it's myself and my lack of due diligence in first of all picking an installer that I find out when problems arise can't "for insurance reasons" repair a propane appliance. So then I have to turn to my propane supply company for repairs who by the way are an hour and a half away and although well-intentioned are not well-versed in this furnace. I'm going to insist that my tech that comes out tomorrow (Monday) contact the good folks at Utica, perhaps Todd directly, to properly troubleshoot this problem. One other note, which I hope explains my frustration is that this is a second home over 200 miles from my primary residence, so I cannot actually be there to oversee the service call.

    Many of you have asked about our first problem which had to do with an inability to get furnace to fire. It seems that my tech was able to correct this by rerouting the exhaust so that condensation drained more effectively, which I have to say confuses me quite a bit because no one mentioned that as a possible issue, yet he insists that was a problem. I'd love someone to explain that to me. He rerouted that about 10 days ago. Last weekend there was a small puddle coming out from under the furnace. Initially, we thought it was water, but evidentially it was the beginning of the larger antifreeze leak which we found this weekend. It seems really hard for me to believe that these events aren't all related. I'm still not sure we really solved the first problem.

    Todd, I was unable to find a fuse but will leave my tech a vm to bring several tomorrow. Here's a question...does Utica have factory trained techs that would be willing to come to Indian lake? I could have someone meet them there. I would really like to get this system working the way it has been designed to. And although they mean well, I'm not sure the local techs are doing this system justice.
  • todd_ecr todd_ecr @ 4:25 PM
    Contact this user

    Reps

    Ed, we do have product reps. I can check in the morning who the rep is for your area. I wouldn't mind taking a trip up to Indian Lake to have a look at things, however i doubt my boss would want to part with me for the day away from the phones.

    Our 2 primary wholesale distributors up there are R.E. Michel and J.E. Sawyer, both in Glens Falls. They may also be able to provide assistance.
  • RobG RobG @ 1:12 PM
    Contact this user

    Any Resolution?

    The title speaks for itself.
  • todd_ecr todd_ecr @ 3:14 PM
    Contact this user

    95M-200

    I've tried contacting Ed but there is no answer.  I havent heard from him either.
    Ed, if you see this, feel free to give me a call at (315)731-4163.  I do have contact info for our rep if you are still interested.
    As Ed mentioned earlier this is a vacation home so he is not always there.
  • ADKEd ADKEd @ 3:55 PM
    Contact this user

    resolution

    Sorry took so long to get back to you guys. The long and short (no pun intended) is that the Taco Circulator pump with the leaky seal evidently suffered some type of damage when it leaked anti freeze. Subsequently it was shorting out the 4amp fuse on he control panel and was thus the root of problem. Once the circulator was replaced the fuse stopped blowing and display came back up. Furnace is running normally now. Think I will keep a spare Taco around as this is second one in two years to go out on us. First one did not create a short however.

    Again appreciate your help and if anyone is ever in Indian Lake area drinks are on me.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 6:10 PM
    Contact this user

    Glad to hear it's fixed.

    You may want to have the p.h. checked in your anti freeze. Also, there is a special anti freeze required for aluminum block boilers.You cannot use standard hydronic anti freeze. Todd can give you the info or you can find it on Dunkirk's web site.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • todd_ecr todd_ecr @ 9:12 AM
    Contact this user

    95M

    Glad you got it fixed Ed!  I've attached the documentation that Ironman was referring to.
    http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/2443.pdf
  •  
Post a Reply to this Thread