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Rattling sound (77 Posts)
Rattling soundThere is a rattling sound that transfers up to the main floor coming from boiler area. I called a System 2000 authorized service and he came and heard it by the boiler and tried a few things. He could make it happen by banging on the pipe where the Spirovent is, and he heard it happen without doing anything. At first he thought it was a bad float inside the Spirovent, took out the float but problem remained. After a few hours and getting nowhere, I told him to call Energy Kinetics. The EK representative told him to wash out the boiler with TSP or vinegar because he's aware of such problems and it's scale, or at least that's what he thinks it is. Now, I have to pay for the procedure and there are no guarantees. Is there some other possible reason? What should I do?
How about the...circulator. That is the real moving part in the system. Cleaning out the boiler is not a bad idea as it will clean out just from your piping and boiler thus giving your better heat transfer.... IE better performance.
Maybe, butThe technician who came today said it wasn't the circulator. EK representative did tell him to use either vinegar or TSP to clean out the boiler because he thought scale was the problem. I don't know, system is around 4 years old and my previous system, a Weil McClain, went over 10 years without a scale problem.
The problem seems to be mostly in the first zone, which is my den. You can hit the pipe connected to the Spirovent when heat is circulating and the rattle occurs, aside from occurring randomly.
I had the tuneup last month.
System 2000 boiler treatmentThe water passages are tighter with the System 2000 compared with the Weil McLain. The water content of the EK-1 is 2.5 gallons compared with the standard Weil McLain having 10 to 13 gallons.
The System 2000 is shipped with 8-Way boiler treatment that should have been added when the boiler was installed to keep the passageways clean. During the annual maintenance, the boiler water should be checked (it should be purple) to see if the 8-Way is still in the system and if not, more should be added.
If the 8-Way or other boiler water treatment is not added, a small percentage of their boilers will make noises due to the water passage scaling up. The way to get rid of the scale is by acid cleaning the boiler water.This post was edited by an admin on February 5, 2013 6:29 PM.
TSP?The EK representative suggested vinegar or TSP. Is TSP that 8-way boiler treatment?
Boiler PitchTo answer your question about TSP, I believe it is a boiler treatment that is stronger and more readily available at a local plumbing supply house. I think the 8-Way is more of a preventative treatment and is an Energy Kinetics branded product.
It is hard to tell what your problem is without hearing the noise. If it is lime scale, the tech that described it to me (while talking shop, I didn't go to the call) said it definitely was evident that the boiler was surging and banging; & it got worse over time before it was treated. This particular case started when the boiler was about 2 years old. One of the factors that can cause this is the hardness of your water.
To check if it could be an air problem, make sure the boiler is pitched properly. The back of the boiler (opposite side of the burner assuming you have the "frontier") should be a little higher than the front so the air can get out. If you have the black boiler stand, you should be able to adjust the little feet nuts if the attached piping has some play.
rattlingI doubt you have a water issue. Sounds like a lump of solder in an elbow or a zone valve base, etc. Can you post some pics? Was this a replacement unit, or new house, new system? Spirovent on that boiler is not necessary, and a waste of money. If it turns out to be that, have it removed completely.
still don't know what to doMy house is 17 years old and this is second boiler. The 2000 is around 4 years old. The Spirovent was put on because after installation we couldn't get rid of air in the system. EK representative came over and had them install expansion tank on return side, which was done to get rid of splashing sound in zone 1, my den on first floor. The sound remained and expansion tank on return side did not solve anything. I believe there has always been some air in this system.
I had a tuneup done last month but don't know if water was checked--I do know he did a backwash for heat exchanger.
It could be a lump of solder stuck. The sound can be heard when zone 1 is on, which is my den on first floor. The tech who came yesterday did not hear it with zones 2 and 3, but did with zone 1 on and water circulating for heat.
It is not the Spirovent. At first he thought it was the float inside and removed that but the noise continued.
Should I have the boiler washed, or what should I do? There is definitely air in the system now from what he did yesterday.This post was edited by an admin on February 6, 2013 7:53 AM.
seen this beforethe piping needs to be drained, cut both ends, and blow it out opposite the direction of flow. Refill and test. I won't comment on the rep, or techs. They should know the difference between "tea kettling" and something in the piping that doesn't belong. Good luck
.I've had flo checks rattling, usually due to an inefficient circulator. Don't know if you have flo checks or not.
Can't tell you whether of not to have the boiler washed. It sure can't hurt. You are the only one who can determine if it's worth the try. I don't think any of us can give you a yes or no, unless we've been there and heard the noise ourselves.
Flo ChecksThe rattling noise does not seem to be coming from where the circulator is located, so I assume that rules out the flo check possibility. If you use your fist to bang the pipe connected to the Spirovent while water is circulating for heat, you can hear the rattling noise coming from that area--especially when zone 1 is on. I have 3 zones, 2 down and 1 upstairs. The biggest problem I face is getting a "good" system 2000 technician to come over. I tried contacting EK's representative for my area but so far to no avail. I then called EK and was told they would contact the Rep and I'm still waiting! I left a message on his cell phone yesterday and again this morning, with my phone number.
The technician that came over yesterday was from the oil company that sells and services System 2000, and he was here for almost three hours! I told him more than once to call EK and ask them what to do. After about three hours, he finally called. He then told me EK said to wash the boiler with vinegar or TSP because he's heard of these problems and it's scale. The boiler is just 4 years old this month.
.The flo check would normally be near the spirovent, if you have a flo check. Can you post some pictures of your system?
I doubt there are flo-cheks on this.Since this installation is with zone valves for each zone, there probably are no flo-cheks like there would be if each zone were controlled by a circulator.
Grundfos 3 Speed on a System 2000?What speed is the circulator set to?
They come from the factory with a Taco 007 which equates to speed 2 on the Grundfos 15-58.
EKThey are always to be installed with zone valves. Fast acting, full port, and always better if they are Honeywell, and not the lousy Eries I see here. Not a good job over all. I would say that the last zone on that manifold is the noisy zone? Call a good plumber, this is not an EK issue. Find someone here to remove the manifold, and start there. I started installing them in 84. If they are not done right, you have nothing. They are not a complicated system, only to the untrained.
Any heating pipes buried in a slab ?
With your constant air issues and the changing of the circulator and the addition of the Honeywell air eliminator ........... I'd guess you have a leak somewhere . The rattling could be from the circulator , the zone valves , a globe or gate valve ..... Maybe even a flowcheck that might've been left over from the old system . Can you take some more pics of the rest of the piping ?
rattling noiseThe Grundfos is set to medium speed. The last zone is not the noisiest one, first zone is.
I have a full basement and no heating pipes under a slab.
EK was over within a few months of the installation and saw the "lousy' job that was done, but the EK rep did not make them do it over. As for the air problem, EK rep seems to blame everything on the fact I have well water, even this "supposedly" scale problem.
The EK rep has not returned my calls, not even after I called EK's main office and they contacted him and told me he would call.
I am retired and not a whole lot of funds to try this and that.
The technician who came over said it was not the circulator or zone valve.The rattling noise is not constant when heat is on. EK rep told the technician he knows of this problem occurring with the boiler and suggested a boiler wash with vinegar or TSP because there is scale in the system. The system is four years old but EK rep says I have well water and that's why it happened. I had a boiler tuneup last month.
No Rattle, No HeatAfter the technician left, there was lots of air in the system, which I gather is from his taking off circulator, Spirovent, and Erie zone valve for inspection. However, we did have heat in all three zones and Thursday the rattle was gone! Everything seemed great even though I could hear air at the boiler, prominent waterfall sounds.
Saturday morning there was no heat in Zone 1, my den, but had heat in the other zones. The temperature rose just one degree in the living/dining room during seven hours of use. The burner seems to be firing as usual and zone valves seem to be opening alright judging by the little lever at bottom of zone valves.
I used a portable oil-filled electric heater for my den, which is zone one and called for help! They said it would be an extra $150 dollars minimum or I could wait until Monday. Well, since I had heat in the other zones, and the portable electric heater was warming my den to 72 degrees, I decided to wait. Surprisingly, after my den went to 72 degrees and I shut off the portable heater, I decided to put the heat back on in my den and it worked! Things looked pretty good until later when Zone 3, living/dining room went off, no heat. I still had heat upstairs, though weak, and heat in my den, but nothing in zone 3.
This morning there still is no heat in the living/dining room, zone 3, and now heat went off in my den. There is heat upstairs, zone 2. With tomorrow being Monday, I am waiting it out. Could it be air in the system causing this to happen, or maybe the control manager (the thing that shows when heat is on with those LEDs)?
Whales, snails and tails:Just for the fun of it, have you tried running the circulator on #1, the lowest setting?
I have a personal thing about letting circulators have some room to sort their turbulence out before making radical turns like that. The water must go from totally disturbed flow, to laminar and then to circular in a very short space.
Raise the system pressure to 20#, set the circulator to #1 and see what happens.
I personally would also take a 1/2" black coupling with a plug in one end and screw the other end into the Spirovent to see if it is sucking air .
Nothing gained, nothing lost.
call backsIf they made it air-bound, or did something to make zones stop heating, there shouldn't be a mention of $$$$. They obviously created air by draining the system, the other part of the job is to refill it. I'll be nice and leave it at that.
I have...just one circulator for all three zones, so I assume you thought I had three?
I could close the Spirovent but not sure how to do what you suggest. Tomorrow, when the heating tech comes, I could ask him about that, Spirovent sucking air. If it is air that is causing the problem, after he bleeds I could close the Spirovent. The reason I have so much air now is because the technician took off the circulator, zone one valve, and the Spirovent for inspection. I assume that with those things off, lots of air got in. I was not having that air problem before he came, though not sure if cap on Spirovent was open or closed.
Did you mean set circulator to highest speed? I don't know how to raise pressure to 20.This post was edited by an admin on February 10, 2013 10:20 AM.
Slow down:Turn the circulator speed control to "1". Its just something I would try to see what happens. On the top of the Spirovent is a fitting that turns to a horizontal plane and is threaded. You can not pit a cap on it because there is a point that sticks out and will hit the cap. So, use a coupling and a plug or a boiler drain.
It is my feeling that Spirovents can create air bubbles through cavitation with water flowing through the wires. But that is my opinion. I've watched the bubbles appear during demonstration.
If you don't know how to raise the pressure, leave it to the Pro. You may end up in a dilemma. If the system was apart, it may need a good proper purge. I cap off the Spirovents on systems I have to drain because I do it with air. The Spirovent will bleed air faster than I can pump it in. I leave the cap on and have never had an air problem with leaving it on. If I did, I would be removing them.
I've never installed an EK nor do I have any in my customer base that I service. They seem to work well and everyone seems happy with them. I drink that you have a mechanical problem. They can be hard to track down and can be by many small causes
System 2000 and moreI don't have a "1" setting on my Grundfos, either Slow, Medium, or High.
You have me confused by saying the Spirovent can cause air bubbles and then say later that you leave the cap on and the cap can't close it up entirely..
System 2000 is great for those who live in Phoenix or Tucson. I live in the "frigid" zone and System 2000 has a hard time keeping up. I would not recommend the System 2000 for anyone who has well water. EK representative for my area told me well water is what causes scale in the boiler. My boiler is four years old and when the technician asked my rep for help with the rattling noise, EK rep said he's aware of this problem with the boiler and it's because of scale which is caused by well water. I was like, 4 years and already scale? My previous boiler, Weil McClain went over 12 years without getting a scale problem--and well water is what I had and have had since I built this house.
I could tell you lots about EK, and it is pretty bad. I asked them who was recommended for my area to make a purchase of System 2000. I used who they recommended--terrible, terrible mistake. It has cost me thousands and I still have a system 2000 that many say looks like a crappy install--and they are correct. I just don't have the funds to do anymore. I've spent so much and deep in debt I can't do anymore--all because of buying a system 2000. I wouldn't recommend this system to my worst enemy, but that's just me. Since you don't sell or service these units, what you hear is extremely limited.This post was edited by an admin on February 10, 2013 2:05 PM.
Grundfoss:Slow equals "I", Meduim equals "II", High equals "III". on the ones I have used.
I'm not saying your Spirovent is the problem. I'm just giving you some of my bag of troubleshooting tricks to see if you get a response. I'm always looking outside the box for unusual problems and you have an unusual problem.
problem are withthe installer and service personal, not the boiler. I installed my first in 84. They are a clean, quiet, efficient boiler if done right. Unfortunately you have a bad rep and service company. Have you called EK directly? They do attempt to satisfy. Where are you located?
some answersicesailor, The Grundfos I have shows Slow, Medium, and High settings for the circulator. You may be right about the Spirovent, just that I don't understand why you leave the cap on and say the cap doesn't completely shut out air/eliminate the possibility of it sucking in air.
billowcase, yes, I have contacted EK and they sent the rep for my area to my house--and he saw the installation. I contacted them early on, within the first month or two at most. I had to wait for him to come over, which he did, I think, in August, 6 months after installation. I am in Effort, PA.
with this latest problem, rattling, I called EK and they gave me the rep's cell phone number. I called, left a message to call me back more than once, but he did not return my call. I again called EK and told them he hasn't called me back, They contacted him and said he would call me--but he never did.
I was told by EK person who answered the phone they are not a service company and advised me to have someone come over--the rest is in a post of mine above.
Yes, they are nota service company, but they should help to find you some competent tech in your area. Sounds like the rep has as much compassion as your service guys. Anyone here close to that area? I would also look thru the find a contractor here.
Yes, I havelooked here to find a contractor using the Search function, none were listed for my area. Before I purchased the System 2000, I asked EK who they recommended, and I used their choice. I also used their choices for service. My impression is they just want to have their product sold. Their rep who came down and saw the "crappy" install could have had someone redo it and share the cost with me. Instead, I was left with that "crappy" install and nothing like a "whisper quiet" boiler that sounds like a microwave.
My oil company at the time sold both System 2000 and Buderus. I was told to avoid System 2000 and go with Buderus. I thought that was strange, him selling both and saying that, but I didn't ask him why. Others told me he probably said that because he didn't have the personnel to provide adequate service--so I didn't buy it from him. As it turns out, getting someone who is able to provide adequate service here is like waiting for the new century to arrive.
All three zones areworking! I called a company that services and sells the system 2000 and he purged all the zones. There were two techs that came over. One tech thought it might be the circulator, and he still thinks it is a possibility the circulator is going bad. I also thought it could be the circulator because there seemed to be a lack of force moving the water and that's why only one zone would work at a time. But, for now at least, all three zones are working.
While purging I asked him about the water color and if the recommended 8-way boiler treatment was in there. He said no, it was not, but he didn't have any on the truck.
Ron Jr. asked me about a flow check and while the pictures I posted do not show one, there is a flow check in the Grundfos circulator. However, there is no rattling noise now so I guess we can leave things as they are.
First guy spent 3 hours there & didn't purge zones?!!I'm glad you got your problem resolved without acid cleaning. Like I previously posted, the case I am most familiar with that needed acid cleaning, there was a loud banging and hissing at the boiler. The restriction causes the water to flash to steam if the designed flow rate is severely reduced. Hopefully, through this ordeal, you found a good company.
Purging zones should not be hard for a homeowner once you know how. They shouldn't need to be purged more than once if the piping was done well but the added Spiro-vent is a clue something else is going on. Usually the cheaper Hy-vent or 67 vent is sufficient. Maybe the original company installed it unnecessarily?
If you don't have the $$ to have the piping fixed and you have to purge the zones once a year, maybe you could live with it. It doesn't matter what type of boiler is there; if the piping isn't done right, you could have this type of problem.
What was the reason the Grundfos with the integral flo-chek was installed? Like R Mannino said, EK comes with a 007 (without the flo-chek) The flo-chek is not necessary with the zone valve setup.
in replyThe first tech didn't bleed the system because there didn't seem to be a reason to. He took off the circulator, Spirovent, and zone valve 1, put them back, couldn't solve rattling and left. Thus, the air problem was after his work. I do not have to bleed my system every year. I can't remember the last time it was bled.
There was no banging or hissing, just a rattling sound that occurred in spurts--not continuous.
The Taco had a high-pitched sound, and not installer but EK recommended service suggested the Grundfos because it is quieter than Taco--and I can vouch for that.
I paid for a lot of work during that horrific first year with this system--it is not "whisper Quiet" like a microwave as EK's ad states.
I told the tech who installed the Grundfos to remove the flo-check but he refused! It is removable and not needed in my install.
What about the 8-way boiler treatment? The tech who came today said the unit didn't have any. I had a tuneup last month. When I called EK and inquired about maintenance and tuneup, I was told the tech doing a tuneup is supposed to check if boiler needs more 8-way, but obviously he never did.
I've had more service calls for this System 2000 in 4 years than I had in over 12 years for my old Weil McLain boiler.
My guess as to why it is not quiet.If the boiler was not installed with the fresh air intake which consists of 2 inch (EK-1) PVC piped from an outside wall to the insulated burner cover, it will not run "as quiet as a microwave". The 2 inch hole gets what looks like a dryer vent put over it on the outside.
Unfortunately, some companies do not install the fresh air intake to cut down on installation/labor costs which means it is not as quiet. If your boiler doesn't have the yellow box that covers the oil burner, (can't tell from your pictures) it will be more noisy.
Try againFirst of all, they really stated quieter than a microwave.
I have the fresh air intake, so?
So you think the system 2000 should be as quiet as a microwave. I've told system 2000 repair personnel that and they all laugh, and they say it's just commercial hype, but you believe it to be true.
YepWe've installed a couple with the burner cover and without the fresh air intake. A customer commented on how quiet it was and said she could hardly tell it was running while standing right next to it.
The one in the picture was installed at our church and is quieter than the air handler behind it. The kitchen is to the right of the boiler room. Some people have told me that it is so much quieter than the old boiler.
The site wouldn't let me upload a 3.1 megabyte picture; Imagine that.This post was edited by an admin on February 12, 2013 11:26 PM.
quietwith or without the air intake attached, they are about the quietest boiler I have installed or serviced. In the early 80's, getting parts for rotary burners/boilers were getting to be tough. That was a boiler, if set right, you could walk by it and hardly know that it was running. The unfortunate solution to lack of parts was to replace the unit itself. Some we built chambers and installed Beckett burners, some got Vertiflames before that. The only boiler that would come close to as quiet, other than gas, was EK, and I still feel that way today. What nozzle is in it, and can you provide more pics and combustion readings? Is this chimney vented? I understand your frustrations, but this is a result of a poor rep, installer, and service personnel that you have been unfortunate enough to be dealing with.
Hi Ron,Long time no see; I'll catch up with you at the Big Ugly.
Definitely !Looking forward to catching up !
Quieter than a microwaveI do believe they are . Many customers have said they can't believe the unit is running when we show them after we're done .
Not for nothing , but I don't think your problems had much to do with the system itself , and rather with the installers and so called servicemen who worked on it after . The guy who thought the system didnt need a purge AFTER he took out the circulator , Spirovent and a zone valve .............. ain't much of a serviceman .
I'm sorry for all the problems you've been having with the system . It's kinda ludicrous to think all the troubles since day one are from a lack of a good purge ......... But that's what it sounds like .
Quieter than a microwave?You guys say it's quieter than other boilers, but that is not what I've been discussing. What I said was EK's advertisement stated quieter than a microwave. I said it is not as quiet as a microwave. Every single system 2000 service personnel including supervisors and EK representative said the way my boiler sounds is NORMAL for this unit. Most everyone laughs at the suggestion it's quieter or as quiet as a microwave, EK rep didn't laugh, the only one.
Someone above said
My guess as to why it is not quiet.
If the boiler was not installed with the fresh air intake which consists
of 2 inch (EK-1) PVC piped from an outside wall to the insulated burner
cover, it will not run "as quiet as a microwave". The 2 inch hole
gets what looks like a dryer vent put over it on the outside.
Well, I have that installed and I still don't think it runs as quiet as a microwave, at least any microwave I've ever heard. I am not arguing it's not more quiet than other boilers, never said that. However, it is not the same tonal pitch as my previous boiler, quieter but harder sound. The biggest sound improvement is during non-heating months, like summer when many other boilers run to maintain temperature and this one only to maintain temperature when calling for hot water, something like twice a day, whereas many other boilers run to maintain temperature for heating, even though you are not using heat.This post was edited by an admin on February 13, 2013 8:57 AM.
Rattling again!I thought it was over, but the rattling noise is back again, occurring in a series of rattling noise. I went down to the basement while it was rattling and it seems to be coming from the Spirovent., not circulator. Last week the tech took off the Spirovent and removed the float inside but rattling could still be present. At this point, all I can think of is remove Spirovent and see what happens, more money spent on this boiler. Seems like it never ends.
This might sound crazybut do you have a Youtube account ? Is there any chance you can take a video with sound of the rattling noise and upload it ? I'm not sure if you can directly load a video on this website ....... Sound of the boiler running would be nice too .
As for the sound level ............ you might be right that it's louder than a microwave . But I'm not lying when I say at least 5 or 6 customers told us they didn't realize the EK was running .
I have aservice tech coming over Thursday. I discovered a weeping from a pipe connection. The pipe goes from Boiler out of heat exchanger to where both EK air scoop and Supervent are at base of junction. The rattling noise seems to be coming from the Supervent/Spirovent but it's in close proximity to EK air scoop.
There wouldn't be much gained from posting on youtube, mainly because of audio range not being accurately reproduced.
As for your customers who can't hear it running, maybe they have a finished basement with acoustical tile, don't know, but I know this system is far from silent and certainly louder than a microwave.
Supervent removed andrattling noise is gone. The tech removed Honeywell Supervent and installed piece of piping to replace the leaking part to EK-hi vent.
The problem is now there seems to be lots of air in the system. I do have good heat, but I am also hearing gurgling sounds. Perhaps it takes days for air to be removed? I know last time it was purged this wasn't a problem at all. However, since the system was open for the work performed, it may require a second purging? What do you guys think?
The way he purged it was draining each zone.
One more thing, I have only one EK air scoop and the tech said they come with two air scoops. My unit is four years old.This post was edited by an admin on February 20, 2013 8:55 AM.
I calledEK and was told only one air vent comes with the boiler. He said if anyone installs it with 2 air vents, they are doing it on their own.
They are coming back tomorrow for I believe to bleed the system again.This post was edited by an admin on February 20, 2013 6:26 PM.
I have not ...had much experience w/ EK2K but from the info you have given I have a couple suggestions... 1) either replace the circulator w/ a 007 OR at least pull the check valve out of the grundfos 15-58. You can't have an IFC circ w/ the zone valves.
2) Replace the guts on the HW super vent. It may be just crudded up OR replace the supervent w/ a spirovent. After the system is purged and parts replace I would add/ pump in some dish washing detergent to help w/ the air issues.
Interesting suggestions butsince rattling noise is gone, I don't see any reason to buy a Spirovent. EK sells these systems with just one air vent, and they claim that's all you need.
Having 2 air vents does not necessarily solve my air problem.
I agree the check valve should be taken out of the Grundfos, and I asked the installer to do that, but he refused. The guys coming over now do not have much knowledge of Grundfos, and expressed no knowledge of how to remove check valve.
I never heard of dish-washing detergent being used like that, and I really don't want to do anything that voids my EK warranty. My system was installed in March of 2009.
EK recommends 8-way boiler treatment but present service company (EK recommended) does not carry it, they have to order 8-way from EK. When I asked him why they don't carry it, he said because they don't use it in EK 2000 installations, but instead install a scale filter on the boiler feed.
IFCIf you ever feel adventuress, the integral flow check is a white plastic piece that you can see inside the top of the circulator flange. I believe I remember taking one out with my fingers. I can't tell from your pictures which side is the top on your circulator since I haven't installed enough of them to remember looking at it sideways. The lettering on the wiring cover should give you a clue.
Maybe you will get a different tech and he will remove the IFC for you before he purges your system?!
As far as I know, the 8 way comes with every System 2000 boiler unless the company specifies that they remove it from the order. It came with every boiler I was involved with installing.
I'm glad your noise issue seems to be gone.
The owner ofthe service company came over and said the circulator has to be removed to take out the flow check. The Grundfos is very difficult to install because of piping and clearance. The supervisor who installed the Grundfos years ago, had a very difficult time, even installed it wrong on first try.
Yes, rattling noise is gone, but lots of air remain in system. Gurgling is heard upstairs and down, very bad in my den, first zone. After 1 or 2 passes, the gurgling stops. Even with that, I have good heat, no problem with heat at all.
The owner who came over yesterday thinks the EK air vent is not functioning properly. He also thinks I may need to wash out the boiler with vinegar because of that water splashing sound that seems to be at rear of boiler when heat is on. Seems like that splashing sound gets a bit better when temperature on pressure gauge falls below 170. He also suggested an air vent on the supply pipe in my den.
He noted the humming sound heard from the boiler was louder than normal, but offered no solution. He checked level/pitch of boiler and confirmed it was fine.
The DW detergent....Ajax, dawn or Palmolive will not hurt the boiler at all. It will get rid of the air problem.... Just look at the post on the wall titled "Another satisfied customer of the wall"....
Plumber came overthis morning to fix my toilet that wouldn't stop running. He has to get a handle but meanwhile I can flush and make it stop. He saw brown stain inside and said it was iron bacteria that would cause air to get in boiler, something about the iron bacteria turning into sulfur and releasing air inside.He suggested a well shock with I think he said clorox and that would get rid of the iron bacteria which in turn would help get rid of air once the system is bled. The problem as he put it is bleeding the system introduces air inside the boiler because of the iron bacteria, which I assume he means water coming in contains iron bacteria. However, if that is the case, I wonder if iron bacteria is present inside the boiler now and how to deal with it if it is there.
I should add we don't see any brown stains in sinks or toilet bowls, just inside the toilet tank.This post was edited by an admin on February 23, 2013 2:32 PM.
well shockis fine for your DHW, but a properly operating hydronic boiler should not be adding water on a regular basis. Sodium hypochlorite (aka bleach) is a strong oxidizer and the last thing you want in contact with ferrous materials, so if you do shock the well, do not allow any of that water into your heating system until after it the DHW piping is very well flushed.
Boiler water treatment (8-way, Rhomar, whatever) will take care of bacterial issues along with preventing corrosion and helping to dispel air.
Not really adding water all the timeEverything was relatively fine except for sudden rattling noise. I had someone come over and he took off circulator, zone valve, and Supervent for inspection, put them back on and left without bleeding system. After that I only had one zone working at a time, one zone out of three. I called someone else and they bled the system, but air was still prevalent. The rattling noise was still there and next guy came over and removed Honeywell Supervent and rattling noise is gone, however, lots of air in the system.
I've always had a sloshing sound at the supply pipe in my den when the heat came on in that zone, just for 1 or 2 passes at most. I gave up trying to solve that issue because after spending big bucks and getting nowhere, I decided to let it go. EK had their field rep for my area come over and his suggestions, including moving expansion tank from supply to return side did nothing.
Iron bacteria ?That's a new one for me .......
It really does sound like these techs have no idea how to properly purge a boiler .
Unless they're purging the zones with 20+ psi pressure , you'll have the sloshing sounds for a long time .
I never put bleach in a system and I'm not sure if there's any benefit to it .
Sounds like youknow how to bleed my system, Ron. Problem is getting someone like you to do it for me.
From what you guys have said, I am not doing that well shock.
The only thing I can suggestis to make sure each zone works properly and without the sloshing noises " before " the next technician leaves your home . I did this just the other day on an EK install . 5 heating zones and we ran each one to make sure the thermostats controlled the right zone valve . And to check there was no air left in the system . I actually crossed 2 zones .... No one's perfect ! :)
It really is not a big deal to " power purge " as long as the boiler relief valve is piped into a bucket and the hose being used to purge is in a safe place to handle the water . I hope at least one technician will get your heat going trouble free soon Mel .
I'm not sure what you mean by" power purge " as long as the boiler relief valve is piped into a bucket.
They connect a hose to the return side and purge each zone from there. I think they lift the pressure/relief valve while doing so.
Power purgeis what we call purging with the fast fill lever up on the pressure reducer valve . I try to purge all zones at 20 to 25 psi . It's important to have a bucket under the relief valve pipe because the chance of it discharging while purging is pretty high on an EK . Good luck with the system Mel .
MelIf they have ever worked with, or heard of antifreeze, have them purge the system by pump. They will not be introducing more fresh water in to the system, they will be using the existing water content to purge the air out. These guys are sounding more and more pathetic as I read your posts. I have yet to run into an EK that has an air-bound zone, or has an air problem
I'm not sure howthat is done: " have them purge the system by pump. They will not be introducing more
fresh water in to the system, they will be using the existing water
content to purge the air out."
It would seem to me that doing that, pumping in water, would be better if done from water brought in, not well water. How would they pump in existing water? Do you mean purge and use purged water to pump back in?
yes Melan external pump to recirc the existing water. I like to do it that way anyway, water or antifreeze. After 30 years, your back and lugging 5 gallon buckets don't go hand and hand anymore
Do you suggestpurge one zone with others closed and repeat pumping in until air is out, repeat with second zone while others are closed off, and repeat with third zone with others closed off?
only wayto successfully purge, is always one zone at a time, and if the zone is a split loop, only 1 half at a time
Okay, but here ismy question, if you pump back what you took out and what you took out has air in it, then how are you getting rid of air?
Same Procedurefor hot water systems
A whole new ballgameThe service company owner contacted EK and inquired about why there is water splashing sound at rear of boiler. EK's response was it could be a defective heat exchanger, in boiler no longer covered under warranty because it's 4 years, or he could put a blanket on or near, forget which, and try that. The splashing sound was there within first month of installation, day one to be exact. EK rep was over a few months later and heard that sound--he did not say anything about heat exchanger or blanket. But, now, no longer under warranty, EK is saying heat exchanger. Wow, what a great company is EK!
With credit cards nearly maxed out, I can thank EK for all their help in making me a poorer person. I spent lots of money based on recommendations from EK recommended service companies, even the Supervent that had to be removed. I paid to have it installed, and I paid to have it removed, aside from other service recommendations that solved nothing.
If anyone looking to buy an EK system reads this, good luck!This post was edited by an admin on February 26, 2013 3:35 PM.
It's better butnot perfect. The service company installed a "blanket" deep inside the chamber, around what I think is called the heat exchange. They left it with pressure on gauge reaching 20 max and circulator on medium. There is a significant reduction of that water splashing sound, but it clearly remains. This service company guy is the first one to say that splashing sound is water boiling and is causing air in the system--and it makes sense to me. I've had that splashing sound since first getting the boiler, and I've had air in the system from the beginning.
The question remains, why is water boiling like that causing air in the system?
The answer ismy boiler is boiling water and causing air in the system. This, apparently, is a known issue with some of these boilers. The blanket helps and that's why it was done, helps but not cures. I am not hearing the defective heat exchanger story anymore, so it's just my luck to get stuck with a system 2000 that boils water and makes air. The boiling takes place at rear of boiler and is heard as a splashing sound.
I believe the explanation because I've had air in the system from day one. However, no one is saying I have a defective boiler and EK should replace it, and who besides me really cares? EK? Heck, they got their money a long time ago, 4 years to be exact.
The question remains if this is a known issue, why didn't the EK rep who came over my house within the first 6 months and heard the splashing say it was boiling water? Ah, maybe it wasn't a known issue at that time. Maybe, maybe, maybe.... The Chantels from sometime in the 60's.
EK System 2000:I've never installed one, seen a few but I never did a careful run through.
That said, I can't find an install manual or spec sheet. Boilers like that that are fed from the front section and returned to the front section, can be prone to bad circulation (in my opinion) with poor water flow in the back of the boiler. Years ago, I installed a number of Repco boilers that a supplier sold me. I always used one size. They worked OK but they all turned to crap. I installed one that was the next size up. It would not circulate water to the back of the boiler. They had a 8184H (I think) for a control with the capillary sensor in the back section and the tank less in the front. The boiler would be hot in the back and keep the burner off on high limit while it was cold around the tankless. There was no tapping in the back of the boiler to improve internal circulation in the block. The block was too long.
Back when I used to install Weil-McLain #68 boilers, I always bought "A" blocks rather than #P# Package boilers because the "A" blocks had a tapping on the bottom of the back section. I always got better flow circulation through the boiler.
If it is really a problem, and you want something to look at, try a double tapped bushing where the return goes into the bottom of the boiler and run a piece of copper tube, screwed into the inside of the bushing that will run water to the back of the boiler. Drill some holes along the tube but leave the back open. It will improve boiler circulation. EK could eliminate this problem (in my opinion) by putting a 3/4" tapping in the back of the boiler on the bottom where you can run a recirc. line from the boiler out/system supply and a balancing valve.
Return on System 2000's is on topIce,
The System 2000 heat exchanger is a 10' long piece of steel rolled into a coil. The design is a forced circulation counterflow so the flue passages exit in one direction and the boiler water returns from the system on the top of the boiler and exits the boiler at the hottest point closest to the flame. The supply tapping is in the back of the Frontiers and about midway in height toward one side.
The main (system) circulator should always be running if the burner is firing. Most of the time, the boiler is installed with zone valves so there is only one circulator.
MelI have personally never heard of that being an issue with them, doesn't mean that it is not possible, but I think you have a bad install and been getting bad service and advice. What model is this?
Frontier modelSystem 2000. Apparently it is a known problem, per EK. I don't think it has anything to do with the installation, which while not the best, is not causing the splashing sound or air in the system. What the service guy said, and he is owner of the company, makes sense to me. Water boiling is making air. I am certain EK wouldn't say this is a known issue if it weren't. EK was the one who suggested trying the blanket, which they said has helped with this problem.
Blaming an installation that could be better is easy, but the real problem lies within the boiler itself.
Not really MelI know this is more about sour grapes with you, and that is probably why no one else has responded. If the boiler is not installed correctly, than it won't perform correctly. Is it level? What are the temps? Where are the dip switches set? There is so much that is involved in a good install and set up.
What do youreally know? Do you think service guys who have come here are all so dumb? Of Course it's level. No, I think all EK "people" are the ones blaming installation.
Do you even read what I write? Have you not read about the boiler boiling water and making air? EK knows about it, it happens with some of their boilers. I have had not just supervisors and owners come over, owner of company that services EK, and an EK representative. Ah, but you know better and refuse to believe what EK says in regard to the boiler boiling water.
Oh, and there have been some people trying to help. I now know the problem and posted it above. ice sailor offered a solution. You are just trying to rehash the old installation thing. Well, no one has ever been here and said the installation could be causing air in the system, but from YOUR vantage point, you know better.
The problem has been discovered and it's not the installation, unless you mean the construction of what's inside the boiler.
last postGood luck Mel. If you have the answers, why ask questions?This post was edited by an admin on April 4, 2013 7:09 PM.
Becausethe answer was known when I posted it above. If you have been following this thread, you should know that. If you don't believe the explanation by those who I referred to, EK and owner of service company, and you think you know better from your vantage point, good luck to you!