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    Ideas on Quieting a Carlin EZ Gas Conversion Burner (18 Posts)

  • JeffBrown JeffBrown @ 9:58 AM
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    Ideas on Quieting a Carlin EZ Gas Conversion Burner

    Good Morning, I am curious if anyone has suggestions on how to quiet down the Carlin EZ Gas burner connected to my W-M SGO-3 steam boiler.  The burner has a very low pitched rumble to it and it carries throughout the house.  It sounds very much like an oil burner....just a lot louder and "rumbly"

    To clarify, I think the noise itself is being generated from the combustion process, I do not think there is anything wrong with the motor because when the motor is running pre and post purge, it sounds like a normal electric motor.  The burner does NOT have a cover on it, but I dont think this would make much difference if the noise is not directly from the burner/motor housing

    Perhaps this is just the nature of the beast?  Can this noise be exascerbated by improper setup or tuning?  Boiler is in the basement of a two story house.  When in the first floor there's no mistaking the noise...and when you are on the second floor you can hear it if you are listening for it.  In my experience with other homes this is a bit unusual...basically my second floor noise level is other home's first floor noise level

    Cheers,

    -jeff
  • JStar JStar @ 2:44 PM
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    Carlin

    Do you have any combustion test results? Could be misfired.

    Is there a draft control?

    Any pictures?
    - Joe Starosielec
    732-494-4357
    j.star@thatcherhvac.com
    http://thatcherhvac
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    Guaranteed performance. Guaranteed energy savings.

    Serving all of NJ, NYC, Southern NY State, and eastern PA.
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    (Formerly "ecuacool")
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 9:31 PM
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    What is the input

    in BTU's to the burner? Was a heat loss done on the house? Did anyone check the square feet of radiation?
    Conversion burners have to be properly setup, adjusted and tested in order to fire correctly. They then tend to be at least equal to an oil burner for sound or hopefully slightly quieter.
    What is your location?
  • JeffBrown JeffBrown @ 10:07 PM
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    anwers

    - What is the input in BTU's to the burner? I clocked gas consumption at about 105,000 btu.  The boiler is rated for 114,000.
    - Was a heat loss done on the house? Did anyone check the square feet of radiation?

    The conversion burner was here when I bought the house so I cannot answer these questions.  I did count up the EDR for the rads in the house and that is 260 sq ft including the pickup for the piping.  That comes out to what 62,500btu?
    Conversion burners have to be properly setup, adjusted and tested in order to fire correctly. They then tend to be at least equal to an oil burner for sound or hopefully slightly quieter.
    What is your location?


    Just north of Boston (Medford)
  • JeffBrown JeffBrown @ 10:15 PM
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    yes there is a draft control

    it's the one from when it was an oil boiler however.  I have asked probably 10 people about this and gotten no consensus on whether or not it should be a 1 wayor 2 way damper w spill switch.
  • JStar JStar @ 11:57 PM
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    Draft

    It 100% needs to be a double swing barometric damper with a safety switch. If not only to please the inspectors, for safety.

    Any picture of the draft control and placement?
    - Joe Starosielec
    732-494-4357
    j.star@thatcherhvac.com
    http://thatcherhvac
    http://facebook.com/thatcherhvac


    Guaranteed performance. Guaranteed energy savings.

    Serving all of NJ, NYC, Southern NY State, and eastern PA.
    Consultation anywhere.
    (Formerly "ecuacool")
  • JeffBrown JeffBrown @ 11:17 AM
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    of course!

    draft control
  • JeffBrown JeffBrown @ 10:10 PM
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    a pic

    tah dah
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 9:59 AM
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    just a thought

    and Steamhead might be able to shed light on this, but can the boiler be switched from top flue to rear flue?When I install those, oil only, I prefer rear flue. They are quieter, and have a lower stack temp
  • JeffBrown JeffBrown @ 11:15 AM
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    technically yes

    but practically....i dont think there is enough clearance behind the boiler to vent out the rear, make a 90 deg turn up and then another 90 deg turn into the chimney...

    not without moving the boiler and redoing all the piping...or making a new opening in the flue
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 11:32 AM
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    Switching flue configuration

    shouldn't be a problem. But I suspect the burner wasn't set up properly, especially since they didn't install the proper draft regulator.

    I don't have the specs handy, but I think that burner should use the "9-slot" air tube/diffuser assembly on that boiler- either that or the "B" diffuser. The 9-slot produces a shorter flame pattern which is less likely to slam the target wall in the rear of the firebox.

    You really need to have a pro look at this.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • JeffBrown JeffBrown @ 2:13 PM
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    Thx Steamhead, more pics and comments

    I would like to have an expert review the installation however I am having zero luck finding someone in my area who has experience with gas conversions.  I have looked through angieslist and the listing on this site but my search has proved unsuccessful, so if you know someone to recommend I would be grateful.  I live north of Boston, MA - Medford, Somerville, Cambridge

    It isn't clear to me whether the back venting vs top venting is something to persue, but I measured and there is 21" between the back side of the boiler jacket and the chimney.  The stainless flue liner protrudes 1-2" from the chimney wall making it tighter to get a fit....maybe it's possible but not sure if this is necessary?
    Now onto the diffuser and tube.  Attached are some pics, and you can clearly see the label on the tube says " 10" " and "B" so I assume this is a 10" tube with a B style diffuser, which jives with what you recall being correct.  There is another label with a handwritten value for the diffuser plate, but as you can see it's partly inside the collar of the mounting plate....but to my eye it could be the letter "B".  The length of the measureable part of the tube is 7.5" and I assume the tube continues inside the mounting plate into the combustion chamber.
    Air band setting is set to 20% and this jives with the suggested settings int he Carlin manual for the nozzle size that is hand written on the service tag (7/32")

    Maybe not so bad?  Again, no idea whether it was tuned after install or whether it was installed using all the defaults.  I imagine things like draft and gas pressure can make a big difference!
  • JeffBrown JeffBrown @ 2:20 PM
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    Since we are on it - difference between 1 and 2 way draft control?

    I understand the functional differences in operation.  Namely that the 2 way damper allows the flow of combustion gases into the basement under positive draft conditions in the flue/vent

    Why would I ever want to allow that?  If flue gasses back up into the combustion chamber the worst that could happen would be the flame would die, but then the system would shut itself down and restart.  Seems like there would have to be an extreme amount of positive pressure over a long period in order for that to be an issue...and I feel like id rather have the system shut itself down rather than start spewing gasses into my basement.

    I can see how with a natural draft boiler this could be more of an issue....but my EZ GAS burner is a power burner and creates its own draft in additional to the chimney creating its own draft, so I do not see my configuration being as suspectible to draft issues compared to a natural draft boiler.

    Cheers!
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 2:53 PM
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    Jeff not a matter of choice

    on the double swing barometric it is required by code.

    The reason for it is the difference between oil and gas. Oil has a cad cell which is very quick to shut down on any poor flame condition due to back-draft, down draft or spillage of any kind. With gas we have no such device, hence a back draft or downdraft would snuff out the gas flame and cause a build up of raw gas in the chamber. The double swing barometric takes care of that by dumping back into the combustion zone, we put a spill switch (blocked vent switch) on the barometric to insure safe burner shut down.
    The statement from your posting below is not correct. A power burner does not create its own draft. All draft whether on an atmospheric or power application is developed by the temperature difference created in the flue and the height of the vent or chimney. All the blower on an oil or gas power burner does is pre-mix the fuel either gas or oil. It creates very, very little affect on draft if any at all.
    I am located in Rhode Island and own and operate the Gas Training Institute in Warren, RI. I have also installed and set-up over 3,000 gas conversions using conversion burners, I will check to see if there are any of my students in your zip code if you will pass it on to me,

    I can see how with a natural draft boiler this could be more of an issue....but my EZ GAS burner is a power burner and creates its own draft in additional to the chimney creating its own draft, so I do not see my configuration being as susceptible to draft issues compared to a natural draft boiler.




    .
  • JeffBrown JeffBrown @ 3:00 PM
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    Thanks Tim

    Learn something new every day!  Thank you.  My ZIP is 02155.

    How does a gas boiler detect the flame condition?  I don't have the manual handy but I recall Carlin indicating there was some sort of flame sensor in the EZ Gas...which is why the status light turns green after starting up and the unit conitnues running...

    Also, if the EZ Gas isn't really developing its own draft, where does the supply air get introduced into the boiler in order to allow proper pressure and venting?  Is it all coming in via the air band setting on the burner itself?
    This post was edited by an admin on March 10, 2013 3:02 PM.
  • Tim McElwain Tim McElwain @ 9:40 PM
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    Answers to questions

    How does a gas boiler detect the flame condition?  I don't have the manual handy but I recall Carlin indicating there was some sort of flame sensor in the EZ Gas...which is why the status light turns green after starting up and the unit continues running...

    The Carlin EZ gas burner uses direct spark ignition to light the gas the flame then is sensed by the flame rod. The process is called flame rectification. The microamp signal created by the process is detected by the electronic control which in turn keeps the burner running. A lack of that signal will cause the burner to shut down.

    Also, if the EZ Gas isn't really developing its own draft, where does the supply air get introduced into the boiler in order to allow proper pressure and venting?  Is it all coming in via the air band setting on the burner itself?

    Both the primary and secondary are brought in to mix with the gas through the air gate, part of the required excess air is also introduced at that time and the sustained burning in the combustion chamber develops the heat (Delta T) Temperature difference which passed through the sections creating the turbulence for heat transfer and also developing the flow velocity which then leaves the breech of the boiler and at the barometric dilution air is introduced to slow down or retard the high velocity high temperature flue gases for safe operation. In the true sense venting the flue gases creates the pressure difference (draft) usually a -.01, -.02 " water column is the measurement. As long as we have draft we then have sufficient air for combustion (ventilation). The remaining force to sustain draft is provided by the temperature difference in the flue or chimney and the height of same.

    Air from sources other than through the burner will lower the efficiency. This is why when conversions are done the existing boiler integrity needs to be addressed and all air leaks sealed up.
  • JeffM JeffM @ 11:15 AM
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    rear flue

    I have a very similar setup in my house. SGO 5 with a Carlin conversion. I have a similar deep rumble noise when running, and a rear flue exit so not sure that alone will solve the issue. I did note that the oil installation had a longer straight section before the first elbow which may be a factor. I don't have my test numbers handy but they are posted on the Wall somewhere so I might be able to find them. I'm curious to reduce noise too. I plan to ask about the rumble at my tune up this year.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 10, 2013 4:04 PM.
  • BobC BobC @ 5:35 PM
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    Same noise with Smith G8-3

    I live in your general area (02171) and had a Smith G8-3 installed with a EZ Gas about 15 months ago. It works great but it does have the rumble.I've talked to Carlin about it and they don't see m to know how to cure this problem, it seems some installations have the problem and some don't. I did quiet it somewhat by reducing the firing rate (at Carlins suggestion) but the rumble is still there.

    i suspect it has something to do with size of the combustion chamber and perhaps its relation to the length of the flue but that is just a guess. Your WGO3 and my G8-3 probably have similar sized combustion chambers, how high is your chimney?

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 84,200 BTU, Single pipe steam

    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in

    3PSI gauge
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