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    Adding a secondary pump to my radiant heating system (72 Posts)

  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 2:47 PM
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    Adding a secondary pump to my radiant heating system

    3/8 " tubing. 1000 feet of runs. 6 loops ranging from 140 feet to 180 feet. GPM flow average about .65 gpm per loop. My pump is after the mixing valve. Trying to get more flow through each loop. Have balancing valves to slow water flow if need be. The thermostat signal (24 volt) is sent to a control board which in turn starts the pump (120 volts) and the isolated switch turns on the boiler on same board. So here is the question:
    Can I add another small pump right before the boiler? Can I hook up a second pump to the board? So both pumps will turn on at the same time. Will adding a second pump damage anything or even help out with the actual flow? I can post pictures if necessary, etc.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 18, 2013 2:48 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 2:50 PM
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    SCHEMATIC OF SYSTEM

    Schematic of the system and pump
  • SWEI SWEI @ 2:57 PM
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    a drawing will help

    Pretty sure JPG, GIF, PNG, and PDF all will work.

    Depending on the current layout and pump, there are several possible solutions.  Why do you feel you need more flow?
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 3:24 PM
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    Attachment

    Tried attaching 2X but nothing worked.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 3:36 PM
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    Why I feel that I need more flow

    When the system starts up it takes quite a long time before the return side of the tubing is warm too hot to the touch, especially from a cold start. The system is in the subfloor in the basement. There is bubble wrap underneath and very well insulated with double layers of R15 insulation (tucked in nicely). After the system runs for at least one hour or a few hours (no more then 2 hours) and the room is up to temperature the heat will not kick on for at least 6-8 hours depending on how cold it is outside. Today it is 35 degrees. Heat really never goes above 70 degrees as this is very comfortable.
    I understand that there is a pump curve to any water flow.  Luckily the first floor has radiators as well in the other part of the rooms and the largest room with high ceilings has both radiant and radiators. Unfortunately the subfloor has only one loop through each joist (some parts).
    Once the system gets going the house and kitchen are very warm and stay warm for quite a while.  The situation is that the cold water automatically starts mixing with the hot water creating a very slow effect. I am assuming that creating more flow (slightly in each loop) will create heat faster. The heat will probably take a while to come up but not as long as before.
    Sorry about JPEG pictures, they were not uploading. The PDF worked.
  • STEVEusaPA STEVEusaPA @ 5:18 PM
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    little more info...

    First, I don't think the second pump idea will work.
    What pump do you have now?  What are the sizes of all the piping?
    What water temp do you have running thru the radiant?
    Where are the radiator loops on the diagram, and what temp are they running at.
    How many btu's do you need for each loop.
    Lets evaluate the design first to make sure it can do what you need it to do as far as flow, btus, right circulator, etc.
    steve
  • SWEI SWEI @ 7:57 PM
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    radiant, radiators, and pumps

    Radiant floors and radiators generally need rather different water temperatures.

    Do floor loops and radiators share the same manifold port, or are there specific ports used for each type of radiation?

    Looks like the boiler probably has an internal circulator, but just in case -- is there only one pump in the system?

    Can we assume the two crosses shown in your drawing are do not represent four pipes connected together?
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 9:46 PM
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    Update on the information: Please see answers after questions.

    First, I don't think the second pump idea will work.What pump do you have now? B& G Series 100 1/12 HP Pump   What are the sizes of all the piping? 3/8" tubing pex for radiant heating only
    What water temp do you have running thru the radiant? 120-140 (Mixing valve installed)
    Where are the radiator loops on the diagram, and what temp are they running at. 180 for the radiators. 2 extra B&G pumps. 1st floor and 2nd floor. Radiators are zoned with Honeywell controllers, etc.
    How many btu's do you need for each loop. Do not know, but boiler is 90% efficient 175,000 BTU.
    Lets evaluate the design first to make sure it can do what you need it to do as far as flow, btus, right circulator, etc. steve
     
    1. radiant, radiators, and pumpsRadiant floors and radiators generally need rather diferent water temperatures. They are at different temperatures. 180 for Radiators and 120-140 for radiant.

      Do floor loops and radiators share the same manifold port, or are there specific ports used for each type of radiation? specific ports for each zone. They do not share the manifold. The wirsbo uponor supply and return manifold (6 loops) is only for the radiant heat only.

      Looks like the boiler probably has an internal circulator, but just in case -- is there only one pump in the system? Boiler does not have an internal circulator. There are 4 circulators. There are 4 circuit boards with zone valve and priority zones (not used). End switches and Isolated switches. All the signals are sent from one board to another for the zoned areas with Honeywell valve controllers. For radiant and hot water wired directly to secondary boards. No zone valves only flow control valves. The signal then goes to aquastat and to electronic ignition. Only the isolated switches on the boards are wired to the aquastat.

      Can we assume the two crosses shown in your drawing are do not represent four pipes connected together?  No only the mixing valve connects the 2 pipes. Although the piping is still connected to all the other piping and zone valves. The controllers are closed not allowing water to move past a point in addition pumps are not moving the water, only the radiant heat pump pulls and pushes water through the system, etc.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 18, 2013 9:52 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 9:56 PM
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    Ultimate Goal

    The ultimate goal here is to create more flow or GPM through each loop. Can only one pump for the section off radiant part pull/push water through or can 2 pumps be installed. If so, will the 2nd smaller pump create problems because the pump is trying to push water through faster then the bigger pump can handle? That is really the question. If so, then the only other option is to purchase a bigger pump. Thanks!
  • SWEI SWEI @ 10:04 PM
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    the ultimate goal

    is to make you system work properly.  If we don't understand how it was designed and installed, we stand precious little chance of improving it.

    Photos of the boiler and associated piping, valves, etc. would help.

    The Series 100 is a wonderful high flow low head pump.  I've never used one on floor loops so I'd really like to understand the rest of the design.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 18, 2013 10:11 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 8:42 AM
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    Pictures

    First page: Pump for Holding Tank, Pump for First Floor and Pump for Second Floor. Empty line is where I possibly could add another small pump.
    Second page: Open port before the boiler
    3rd page and 4th page: Radiant close up
    The loops are all being fixed and organized after the heating season.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 8:48 AM
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    REST OF THE DESIGN

    The B&G Pump is only for the Radiant as you see in the pictures. The small Grundfos pump is for the holding tank. Looks like 30 gallons. The B&G Pump next to the small one is for the 2nd floor. The second floor has 4 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. There are 3 zones all controlled by Honeywell zone valve controls and 2 circuit boards. The zone valves only open up when there is a call for heat and the pump circulates water through the system. The last B&G Pump is for the first floor. The first floor has 4 zones (not including the radiant). Same set up with 4 Honeywell zone valve controllers. The radiant and hot water holding tank only are isolated with 2 flow control valves next to the Air Purge and Vent Valve. Hopefully this answers your questions. Thank you
    .
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 11:54 AM
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    Ain't Broke

    Is there a specific problem, other than the fact you would like the system to heat up faster?
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 2:57 PM
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    No specific problems

    No, there are no specific problems. I have a little air in the system. I am not going to bleed at this point because we only have about 15 days left and the loops have to come down anyway. The pex tubing will be organized neatly and the copper tubing is leaking (very small) and plumber states no air is getting in. But with both the flow control valve leak along with other leak (this has to be fixed).
    It just takes a while (Like 30-60 minutes) before return side is within 20-30 degrees of supply side. This is from a cold start because mixing valve is supplying cool water to keep the system from getting to 180. Also have radiators for other floors. Supply side runs @ 140 going in and return side fluctuates between 110-120.  The system has always run at 140 going in and I have never had any issues. Temperatures of tiles are between 75-80 degrees. I believe once I bleed the system of all air in the spring the temperature differences will become closer. 
    I was looking at a TACO pump (2400-45) where the Max Flow is 55 and Max Head is 45.  The B&G is 33/8.  Because 3/8" tubing (kind of restricted). Looks like I am getting about 4.5 GPM. A lot of variables here. Maybe swapping out the pump may help and increase the flow.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 7:49 AM
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    CAN ANYONE TELL ME IF THIS IS A SUBSTITUTE FOR MY B&G PUMP (SWAPPING OUT)

    I was looking @ the 0013 Variable Speed Delta-T Cast Iron Circulator Pump, 1/6 HP. It has a flat curve for GPM and Ft per head. 34/33 while the B&G is 33/8. This may do the trick. Please advise. Thank you.

    Max Flow: 34
    Max Head 33
    This pumps adjusts based on tempeature swings between return and supply manifold and matches your system over time for errors.
    http://www.pexsupply.com/Taco-0013-VDTF3-0013-Variable-Speed-Delta-T-Cast-Iron-Circulator-Pump-1-6-HP
    This post was edited by an admin on March 21, 2013 8:57 AM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 10:52 AM
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    substitutes

    The 0013 does not have a flat pump curve.  A 0010 does, and makes a pretty good replacement for a Series 100 in most applications.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 12:22 PM
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    TACO's Advice

    I spoke to TACO and after a lengthy conversation with them they suggested the 0015 3 Speed Pump. This has a very flat curve of 21 gpm and 20 feet of head. Because of all this resistance in the system and the design, they suggested the 3 speed pump because I can find a happy medium to have a Delta T of 10 degrees. This is my next step. I will update once this is done.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:45 PM
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    What is a flat curve?

    When we refer to a circulator as having a flat curve, we are describing a pump which does not dramatically increase its head pressure as flow decreases.

    Take a look at http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/00-3speed_family_curves.pdf and you will see why the 007 and 0010 are said to have flat curves. http://jbblog.flopro.taco-hvac.com/watching-the-detectives/ and http://jbblog.flopro.taco-hvac.com/waiting-for-columbo/ explain why this characteristic is desirable for many heating applications.  High head pumps have their place, but they are not "flat curve" designs.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 12:49 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 1:36 PM
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    What TACO advised

    I do not know if "flat curve" is what they used. Please accept my apology. I explained the situation of the supply and return temperatures and all the other characteristics. TACO stated that the 0015 or 00R pump would probably be best as I do not require a lot of GPM through each loop, but would have to increase the head pressure in order to overcome the resistance. Right now the system can operate at 4.0 GPM will all ports fully open. The difference of the supply and return temperature is between 25-40 degrees. Only on a few occasions has the Delta been 20. I have worked with the mixing valve from 110-140. There are 6 settings, while 6 allows less water to mix, in which I am assuming each increment is 5* under perfect conditions. The TACO 3 speed pump has the following characteristics at the highest setting # 3:
    GPM                                        5                  6                   7                 8
    Total Feet Head                    16               15                  14               13
    At this point the B&G has a total of 8 feet per head whether you are at 5-6-7-8 GPM. From Zero GPM to 10 GPM, the head pressure remains pretty flat at around 8. Only at this point the head pressure decreases while the GPM increases. These pumps work great for the zoned radiator parts. I am assuming that is the reason why my flow whether one loop or all 6 loops are fully open changes very little, possibly .10 GPM in total.
     I am trying to get the Delta to 10 because of the layout. Unfortunately even the software provided by manufacturers can not plug in my number because 2/3 of the radiant heat through the subfloor has spacing of 16" apart instead of 8". Bad mistake on builders part. Luckily I have the radiators to compensate (different zone) the Foyer and Hallway. The Kitchen is the only area that has no other zones to compensate for.

    The Taco 0015 and Grundfos 15-58 are so-called “steep-curve” pumps – lower flow, but higher head pressure.  These are great for radiant floor heating, and well-suited to be zone pumps for panel radiator or baseboard jobs using copper or PEX tubing.

    If I am missing something, please help as it sounds to me that this is perfect for my Radiant Heat application. Thank you.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 1:41 PM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 1:40 PM
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    so all this serves is the floor loops?

    and there are no zone valves downstream of the pump?
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 1:44 PM
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    All this serves is the floor loops

    Swei, thank you for your continued support.
    Yes, all this serves is the 6 floor loops on the first floor & nothing else. On the first floor I also have 3 other rooms with radiators. One of the rooms on the first floor (20 feet high and 400 sq. feet) has radiators and radiant heat (2 separate thermostats). The spacing is 8" in this room. So the heat is great. This TACO pump looks like it will use less electricity & circulate the water at constant temperatures resulting in better even heating.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 1:56 PM
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    radiators and thermostats on the first floor

    So the radiators on the first floor are fed by a different pump?

    Is the tubing embedded in concrete, or is this a dry floor system?  If the former, you really can not rely on a conventional thermostat to regulate space temperature.   Outdoor reset control would be best, but a hydronic thermostat with a slab sensor would represent a major improvement.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 1:44 PM
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    All this serves is the floor loops

    Swei, thank you for your continued support.
    Yes, all this serves is the 6 floor loops on the first floor & nothing else. On the first floor I also have 3 other rooms with radiators. One of the rooms on the first floor (20 feet high and 400 sq. feet) has radiators and radiant heat (2 separate thermostats). The spacing is 8" in this room. So the heat is great. This TACO pump looks like it will use less electricity & circulate the water at constant temperatures resulting in better even heating.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 1:57 PM
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    BTUH Calculations

    Based on the calculation I have done of 38,835 BTU's per hour/(10*500) = 7.767 GPM. Divided by 6 loops I would need 1.30 GPM through each loop. Assuming that I have to have the 6 loops at 1.30 GPM, at the lowest setting I would obtain 6 feet of head. At setting # 2, the head pressure increases to 10.5 feet per head, and at setting # 3, the head pressure would be 13 feet of head. Not that significantly more than the B&G Pump.
    My concern after reading the articles is "Banging in the pipes". So is head pressure what is really needed here to achieve a lower delta T. ? Thank you.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 2:05 PM
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    The Radiators are Fed by a different Pump

    Yes, the radiators are fed by a different pump and not through PEX, but copper tubing. I believe there is very little resistance and in addition there are zone valves that open and close to allow water through. Water goes in at 180 degrees and will come back at 130 through the copper. Works real well.
    I have all the radiators on one thermostat as I find the house heats better. The other thermostat is for the radiant.
     The radiant system is through the subfloor in the basement 3/8" tubing joist aluminum tracks. Then bubble wrap is used to insulate the floor with 2 extra layers of insulation in the kitchen and one extra everywhere else. The subfloor is insulated extremely well.
    IMO, the kitchen area is only operating at 50% efficiency because the spacing is 16" and not 8" for the loops.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 2:15 PM
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    bubble wrap

    is not a particularly effective insulating material.  How are your basement temps?

    I would seriously consider an outdoor reset-driven mixing valve for those floor loops.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 2:26 PM
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    My basement temperature

    My basement temperature is fine. The heat is not escaping into the basement. The heat is being contained in the subfloor. I was just curious to know if the pump will do the trick. I understand that it will take a while before the heat comes up. If I left the kitchen at 66 degrees, the radiant would probably run only 1X per day probably at 4-5 a.m. and this is when temperatures drop below 40 degrees F.  I do not really understand an outset reset switch.  
  • SWEI SWEI @ 2:51 PM
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    outdoor reset

    changes the temperature of your heating water based on the outdoor air temperature.  As the outdoor temp warms up, lower temperature water is supplied to the emitters.  http://heat-timer.com/En/EducationDetail.aspx?Id=3 explains pretty well.  While it's useful on almost any type of system, it's pretty much a requirement for maintaining a stable room temperature using in-floor radiant heat.  Given that you have a conventional boiler and a mixing valve, fluid temp for your floor loops could be controlled by replacing your existing mixing valve with something like http://flopro.taco-hvac.com/products/index.html?category=188

    I should have asked if you are measuring those large ∆T numbers when the system starts up and if they drop later as the system comes up to temperature?  If so, adding ODR might be a better move than installing a larger pump.

    You could also add outdoor reset to your boiler, which would vary the temperature in your main loop depending on weather, probably saving ~15% on your annual fuel bill.  The mixing valve controlling the floor loops would not be affected by this, but overall system comfort would increase.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 3:01 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 4:25 PM
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    What happens when the system starts up

    I should have asked if you are measuring those large ∆T numbers when the system starts up and if they drop later as the system comes up to temperature?  If so, adding ODR might be a better move than installing a larger pump.


    When the system starts up from a cold start, the surface temperature of the manifolds are 70* on the supply and return. Now the boiler starts and water is at 70*, slowly the temperature increases to 180* on the boiler and the supply temperature increases at a slower rate. Within 10 minutes the supply temp. is now @ 140-450 degrees. The return temp. is still at 90-100 degrees, so the initial difference is 40-50 degrees, and will not reach the difference of 30 degrees until system is running for at least 1 hour.  The water coming up from the boiler pipe is T off and I have the flow control valve that starts the cycle of water (pump still pulling at this point), then the next step is the mixing valve, circulator pump pulling and pushing down towards the supply side of the manifold. I am assuming the flow control valve creates resistance. I can sketch out the system if need be. All the other zones are shut down.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 4:49 PM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 7:32 PM
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    supply temps

    Are showing 170-190F on radiant loops?  If those are accurate, I'm wondering what the mixing valve is mixing down from...

    Those big delta-T numbers you're seeing are a result of hot water hitting a cold floor.  Outdoor reset with constant circulation will stabilize those at a level perhaps a bit better than the 30F you are seeing after an hour of operation.

    The way your system is currently configured and controlled is kind of like driving a car that has no accelerator or brakes -- your speed can only be controlled by depressing or releasing the clutch.  Imagine driving that car on varying terrain -- while only being able to see about 3 feet in front of your bumper.  That's roughly what an indoor thermostat controlling a fixed speed circulator or a zone valve can do.

    Outdoor reset gives you an accelerator and brakes while increasing visibility to something like 200 yards.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 7:45 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:47 PM
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    I think

    That he means 180 boiler temp, and 140 mixed temp supplied to radiant.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 10:50 PM
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    Confused by the PDF above

    titled "Radiant Sketch" which shows a supply manifold with ports marked
    140 140 180 190 170 170
    and a return manifold with ports marked
     .7    .7    .6    .6    .7    .7

    I figured the numbers on the supply ports were temperatures, but can't imagine how those could result from the piping diagram shown (unless they represent cheap clip-on thermometers which have not been calibrated.)
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:20 AM
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    SWEI

    I think those are both sets of flow rate numbers. Unless I'm looking at the wrong sketch. First link right hand sketch.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 4:51 PM
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    Radiant Sketch

    Radiant Sketch
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:52 AM
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    Okay

    I did not see those numbers on the first radiant sketch PDF .
  • Gordy Gordy @ 5:08 PM
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    D

    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 5:11 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 5:09 PM
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    D

    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 5:13 PM.
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    D

    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 5:14 PM.
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    D

    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 5:15 PM.
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    D

    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 5:16 PM.
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    D

    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 5:17 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 5:09 PM
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    Thorn in the design

    Is 3/8" tubing 16" on center in a staple up configuration. It's not 50% less efficient it's just 50% less emitter.

    The reason your delta is so wide is that the tubing is giving up twice the btus to the floor verses say an 8" oc layout by the time the return water gets back to the manifold it's plenty cold.

    I doubt you will ever get a 10* delta t unless you use outdoor reset, and constant circulation. Less emitter is less BTUS a sf. With the present flow rates you might be getting 20-25 btus a sf.

    The headloss for 180' of 3/8 tubing would be well over 20' for 1 GPM. Plus manifold, and supply return piping head losses.



    Your not going to get what you think with the 0015


    What are your floor coverings in the radiant areas?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 5:09 PM
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    D

    This post was edited by an admin on March 23, 2013 5:12 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 5:57 PM
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    What are your floor coverings in the radiant areas?

    I do not understand the question?  Please advise!
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:27 PM
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    Floor coverings

    Carpet,tile,hardwood, engineered hardwood etc.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 8:19 PM
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    Tiles

    I see you have tile. Is this on all the radiant floors?

    I think you have a lot of lose ends to get in order before you worry about buying a bigger circ.

    You say there may be air in the system this can effect flow rates. You also state all the tubing is coming down to be reorganized? To what extent.

    Lots of people come here wanting to install a bigger more expensive to buy, and operate circulator thinking its going to fix a flow problem. A lot of the time it's not the circulator selection.


    Really have to do the math to see where your at..

    What's the heat loss to the space heated by the radiant?

    This tells you tubing size needed centers spacing, flow rate, and water temps.

    You are already bound by the 3/8 pex which of I understand correctly is a plated under floor install?

    So now unless you redo the emitter end you have to design around that, and make it work as best as you can.

    You state that it is working fine, but the complaint is that it takes to long to get up to temp.

    Unless you follow SWEI's advice ODR with constant circulation you can't do much better than what you have. A big pump won't fix it. All it will do is give diminished returns. The amount you gain will be far less, and cost more where ODR will give you improved comfort, and save money.

    I run a B&G series 100 HV on my system which has a steeper curve than the 100. My system is all radiant ceilings and floors from the 50's. 1/2" and 3/8 copper tubing 200' loops 6",8" and 12" on center 26 loops piped parallel. The system head is 11.5 feet at 15gpm. I run an average water temp of 107 degrees on a design day which is -10. Each loop averages just under .6gpm.

    That's what tube spacing allows you to do lower water temps, and flow rates. The wider the spacing the higher the flow rates, and the higher the temp needed. The tubing has its flow, and temp limitations to design around.

    Hope this helps you understand a little more.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 7:41 AM
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    Follow Up

    PLEASE SEE IN BOLD. APOLOGIZE FOR BEING BOLD BUT AT LEAST THE ANSWERS WILL BE THERE.
     see you have tile. Is this on all the radiant floors?
    YES, ONLY THE TILES HAVE RADIANT FLOORS. THE FAMILY ROOM HAS 8" SPACING AND THE OTHER AREAS HAVE 16" SPACING.

    You say there may be air in the system this can effect flow rates.
    I HAVE A FLOW CONTROL VALVE AND SLIGHT LEAK AT COPPER TUBING. AT ONE POINT THE FLOW WAS ABOUT 4.5 GPM AND NOW AT ABOUT 4 GPM
    You also state all the tubing is coming down to be reorganized? To what extent.
    NOTHING MAJOR. JUST ORGANIZE THEM AT THE MANIFOLD.

    Lots of people come here wanting to install a bigger more expensive to buy, and operate circulator thinking its going to fix a flow problem. A lot of the time it's not the circulator selection.


    Really have to do the math to see where your at..

    What's the heat loss to the space heated by the radiant?
    I CALCULATED THE HEAT LOSS BASED ON HIGH CEILINGS, 9 FOOT CEILINGS, ETC. AND BY EACH ROOM AND THIS IS WHAT I CAME UP WITH.

    LAUNDRY ROOM 1,620
    KITCHEN810
    FAMILY ROOM & FOYER 36,000
    SMALL BATH 405
    Total = 38,835

    This tells you tubing size needed centers spacing, flow rate, and water temps.

    You are already bound by the 3/8 pex which of I understand correctly is a plated under floor install? YES, I AM ALREADY BOUND BY THE TUBING. I WILL NOT TAKE THIS TUBING DOWN. IT IS JUST WAY TOO MUCH WORK AND $$$ AT THIS POINT. THE WORK BEING MORE THEN THE $$. I CAN EASILY MOVE OVER THE OLDER TRANSFER PLATES AND ADD ANOTHER 4 RUNS, ADD ON TO THE MANIFOLD AND THEN MOVE ON TO THE PUMP. BUT BECAUSE OF 3/8", I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE THE RISK OF THE SYTEM NOT WORKING THE WAY I WANT IT TO.

    So now unless you redo the emitter end you have to design around that, and make it work as best as you can. I WOULD ADD WALL RADIATORS IN THE KITCHEN AND FOYER PRIOR TO DESIGNING AROUND THE SYSTEM. THERE IS AN EXTRA PORT IN THE BASEMENT FOR THE FIRST AND SECOND FLOOR PUMPS (OUTSIDE THE RADIANT HEAT), MAKING THIS 2 EXTRA COPPER SUPPLY AND RETURN PORTS (CAPPED OFF). THE COST WOULD BE ABOUT THE SAME AS THE RADIANT, ALTHOUGH THERE WOULD BE 3 OR 4 LARGER RADIATORS IN THE AREAS THAT WOULD NEED THE HEAT.

    You state that it is working fine, but the complaint is that it takes to long to get up to temp. THE SYSTEM WORKS FINE, BUT RUNS A LONG TIME BEFORE TEMPERATURES CAN BE REACHED. IN THE MORNING TEMPERATURE IS AT 67 DEGREES AND IT WILL TAKE ABOUT 2 HOURS BEFORE REACHING 69-70 DEGREES (ONCE I TURN THE SYSTEM ON) ONCE SYSTEM SHUTS DOWN THE HEAT WILL NOT TURN ON FOR AT LEAST 6-8 HOURS IF NOT LONGER.
    ALTHOUGH THE HOUSE HAS 2 QUITE LARGE HIGH CEILING ROOMS AND ABOUT 800 SQ. FT LARGER THEN MY NEIGHBORS HOME WITHOUT THE HIGH CEILINGS. MY GAS BILLS ARE ONLY $30-$50 MORE PER MONTH THEN HIS. HE KEEPS HIS HEAT AT 62 (NIGHT TIME) AND 68 DURING THE DAY. MINE CONSTANTLY RUNS BETWEEN 68-70 ALL DAY LONG AND NIGHT. SO SOMETHING IS WORKING RIGHT.

    Unless you follow SWEI's advice ODR with constant circulation you can't do much better than what you have. A big pump won't fix it. All it will do is give diminished returns. The amount you gain will be far less, and cost more where ODR will give you improved comfort, and save money. MY AQUASTAT MINIMUM IS AT 180 DEGREES.  I WILL LOOK INTO THE ODR TO DETERMINE IF THIS WILL WORK.

    I run a B&G series 100 HV on my system which has a steeper curve than the 100. My system is all radiant ceilings and floors from the 50's. 1/2" and 3/8 copper tubing 200' loops 6",8" and 12" on center 26 loops piped parallel. The system head is 11.5 feet at 15gpm. I run an average water temp of 107 degrees on a design day which is -10. Each loop averages just under .6gpm.

    That's what tube spacing allows you to do lower water temps, and flow rates. The wider the spacing the higher the flow rates, and the higher the temp needed. The tubing has its flow, and temp limitations to design around. I DO UNDERSTAND THIS A LITTLE MORE. WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS IF THE 3/8" TUBING IS SNAPPED INTO ALUMINUM TRANSFER PLATES (WHERE I HAVE FELT THE PLATES) REAL HOT, IMO THE TUBING IS NOT COOLING DOWN IN THE BEGINNING BUT AT THE END OF THE LOOP. I GUESS WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO IS JUST CREATE FOR EVEN HEAT WITH WHAT I HAVE. I DO NOT KNOW WHY THE INEXPERIENCED PLUMBER LAYED DOWN A RADIANT HEATING SYTEM WITH 16" APART INSTEAD OF 8". THIS IS WHY I THOUGHT INCREASING THE FLOW RATE FROM 4-4.5 GPM ACROSS THE BOARD TO ABOUT 6 GPM MIGHT DO THE TRICK. THAT IS ONLY ABOUT .3 GPM PER LOOP. BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE I WILL HAVE DIMINISHING RETURNS.  

    Hope this helps you understand a little more. IT DOES. APPRECIATE ALL YOUR HELP. TO ADD TO THE CONFUSION, I GUESS. I HAVE 6 LOOPS. IF I SHUT DOWN THE FIRST 2 LOOPS 8" ON CENTER (140 FOOT RUNS EACH) TO THE MANIFOLD, HERE IS WHAT HAPPENS.
    THE FAMILY ROOM IS NOT WAS WARM AND FEELS KIND OF COLD INSIDE THE CENTER OF THE ROOM. ALL THE RADIATORS IN THE FAMILY ROOM ARE ON THE OUTSIDE (A LOT OF RADIATORS). THE TILES ARE NOT WARM. THIS ROOM HAS BOTH. I ADDED THIS HEAT 5 YEARS AGO. NOW WE ARE LEFT WITH THE KITCHEN, SMALL HALLWAY AND FOYER ALL WITH 16" SPACING AND RUNS OF 180, 180, 170, 170 TOTALING 700 FEET INSTEAD OF ABOUT 1,000 FEET. MY DELTA CHANGES AND THE DIFFERENCE IS ABOUT 20 DEGREES, BUT THE KITCHEN HEATS UP FASTER.
    I HAVE EXPERIMENTED MANY DIFFERENT WAYS TRYING TO FIGURE THIS OUT.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 24, 2013 7:57 AM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 8:08 AM
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    Reply to SWEI

    Confused by the PDF above
    titled "Radiant Sketch" which shows a supply manifold with ports marked
    140 140 180 190 170 170
    THIS IS THE FEET OF LOOPS PER RUN SNAPPED INTO THE 3/8" JOIST TRAK TRANSFER PLATES.

    and a return manifold with ports marked
     .7    .7    .6    .6    .7    .7
    THIS IS THE FLOW AT THE PEAK OF THE SYSTEM WITH NO AIR IN THE SYSTEM. THERE IS AIR IN THE SYTEM AT THIS POINT.

    I figured the numbers on the supply ports were temperatures, but can't imagine how those could result from the piping diagram shown (unless they represent cheap clip-on thermometers which have not been calibrated.) THE CLIP ON ARE WINTER THERMOMETERS AND THEY ARE ACCURATE. I HAVE TESTED THEM AT ROOM TEMPERATURES, ETC.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:08 AM
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    Odd

    Silver cheetah

    Are you sure that the circ is a series 100 and not a 100 hv?. IEEE you said it's 1/12 hp which is the 100.

    The reason I ask is something is odd. If your flow meters are accurate, and the tube lengths are accurate, 190' of 3/8 pex with .6 gpm is 11' of head according to my rad pad. Are you sure it's 3/8 pex?

    The series 100's shut off is 8'
    This post was edited by an admin on March 24, 2013 11:28 AM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 12:06 PM
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    I am 200% Positive

    Silver cheetah

    Are you sure that the circ is a series 100 and not a 100 hv?. IEEE you said it's 1/12 hp which is the 100.

    Yes, 200% positive. #'s match from website # 106189.

    http://www.pexsupply.com/Bell-Gossett-106189-1-12-HP-Series-100-NFI-Circulator-Pump-3540000-p?gclid=CJGat6nYlbYCFYSK4AodbFIASA

    The reason I ask is something is odd. If your flow meters are accurate, and the tube lengths are accurate, 190' of 3/8 pex with .6 gpm is 11' of head according to my rad pad. Are you sure it's 3/8 pex?

    200% positive it is 3/8" pex. I have some left and have original receipts and have 3/8" fittings that fit the tubing.

    The series 100's shut off is 8'
    That is what I am always understanding that the 100 is 8 feet of head and pretty flat from "0" to "10" GPM.  
    I could be off slightly on the lengths but not that much. I have been through this a hundred times in 3 months.
    I have over 85 (90 degree bends in the pex tubing) about 15-20 (90 degree bends in the pex tubing) along with the manifolds, mixing valve, copper tubing, flow control valve, etc. Many pictures if you need to see them. This could be causing the wrong data to be calculated.
    Based on your calculations, what should the longest run or average of all 6 be on the 3/8" pex tubing?
     
    Lastly, I tested out loops 2-4 (16" spacing) and today the Delta T was between 15-5 as the boiler shut off and turned on. The temperature varies as the supply side becomes hotter so does the return side. After boiler shuts off the supply side cools down about 10 degrees and return side cools down about 15-20 before boiler turns back on.  
    This post was edited by an admin on March 24, 2013 12:12 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:22 PM
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    Okay

    Your reading the flow meters from the top should be reading the bottom of the plunger.

    So you are from .4 to .5

    That changes head a lot to 5.5 -7.5'

    See how head goes up to the square of the flow rate.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 12:24 PM
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    That is what I thought

    That is what I thought as well. They start at .40 at the top without any flow. So I found this odd as well. I will call Pex Supply or the manufacturer for this part.
    But, when you go to the website for Pex Supply, here is what they write?
    1. TruFLOW Visual Flow Meter, 0.15 to 0.8 gpm
      Q: how do you read the flow meter? From the bottom of the yellow, or at the top where the spring makes a line across the yellow?Asked on 1/16/2012 by hop from McKellar, Ontario
      Know the answer? [u][color=#0066cc]Answer this question[/color][/u]
      1 answer

    2. CUSTOMER CARE

      A:You read the meter at the top of the yellow line, where the spring meets the yellow indicator.
      Answered on 1/31/2012 by PexSupply Staff from NY
    This post was edited by an admin on March 24, 2013 12:26 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:25 PM
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    Wrong to me

    If the customer care is correct then how do you read say .15 flow. They may have confused it with another flow meter.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:50 PM
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    PEX head

    I'm sure my Rad Pad is here someplace...

    I get 3.79 ft/100' (at 180F) or 4.06 ft/100' (at 120F) from the Uponor CDAM for 3/8" PEX at 0.6 GPM (2 ft/sec.)  This would imply somewhere between 7.2 and 7.7 ft depending on temperature for the loop.

    I'd start with an iSeries-R and see how things improved.  Perhaps a Bumble Bee for the radiant loops later depending on what resulted.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 24, 2013 12:54 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 1:06 PM
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    Please explain the comment below?

    I'd start with an iSeries-R and see how things improved.  Perhaps a Bumble Bee for the radiant loops later depending on what resulted
    What is iSeries-R and a Bumble Bee? Please accept my apologies as I am not familiar with those terms?
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 1:11 PM
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    Considering we know more facts

    Considering I am only getting only 3 GPM (reading from bottom of the flow meter), would the 0015 pump @ speed # 3 would produce 16 feet of head at 5 GPM  and 15 feet of head at 6 GPM. Would this pump not overcome the resistance needed to produce slightly more flow or are we still on the same assumption? The cost associated with the pump to test out the waters is not that much?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:37 PM
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    Pumps

    You have to design around a needed flow rate for the loops.

    So lets say you want .8 gpm through the 190' loop the head would be 20.9' so now go to the 0015 curve chart 21' of head on speed 3 will only produce .5 gpm. It ain't going to happen. The 009 is a better match but still is over kill.

    Stick with what swei is telling you. Your wanting to waste about 800 dollars in pumps that won't do what you want. Swei is proposing something that will increase comfort, and save fuel for about the same cost or less.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 3:39 PM
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    Assuming the loop is 190 feet

    Gordy:
    Maybe I am missing something. I am looking at the bottom of the chart. Are you looking at the top of the chart? How are you figuring out 20.9' of head? I trust your figures. Is there any 3 speed pumps out there that will produce the .8 GPM which may not be needed. Thanks! I do not remember these pumps being $800 but more like $300.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:38 PM
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    Charts

    I guess I should ask what chart you are reading.

    Mr. Pex chart is .11 feet of head per foot for .8 gpm that's 20.9' for 190' of loop.
    If youmtrymto push 1 gpm that's .18 feet of head per foot or 34.2 feet of head for 190' loop.

    Rad pad is close to the same.

    Now plot the head of 21 feet on the 0015 curve. Come down to gpm your less than .5 gpm on your longest loop.



    As far as pumps go 275 for the series 100 you won't use, and 375 for the 015 plus some one installing them unless you are doing it..
  • SWEI SWEI @ 1:13 PM
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    iSeries-R

    Is the ODR-controlled Taco mixing valve I linked to above http://flopro.taco-hvac.com/products/index.html?category=188

    The Bumble Bee is a variable-speed ECM (electronically commutated motor) ∆T circulator from Taco.  Its highest curve is roughly equivalent to a 008, but it will constantly adjust to maintain the set ∆T.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 1:18 PM
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    Is this the PUMP you are referring to?

    http://www.pexsupply.com/Taco-0013-VDTF3-0013-Variable-Speed-Delta-T-Cast-Iron-Circulator-Pump-1-6-HP
    If so, TACO talked me out of this to purchase the 0015 pump?
    The NRF-36 is similar but has a manual 3 way switch (I am more comfortable with this) and cost is less?
    This post was edited by an admin on March 24, 2013 1:20 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:40 PM
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    Taco

    I don't think they had the proper info to spec the 015.

    http://www.blueridgecompany.com/radiant/hydronic/747/taco-bumblebee-high-efficiency-variable-speed-pump

    This is the circ swei is describing

    It might settle in at .6 gpm on speed 4
    This post was edited by an admin on March 24, 2013 1:46 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 11:19 PM
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    Some of the verdict is in

    Well I bit the bullet and purchased the B&G 3 speed pump NRF-36. Wow what a pump. Price was very reasonable as Pex Supply matched the lowest price on line. On $249 + free shipping.
    So far here is what has happened. I ran the pump @ speed # 2 in which the flow meters passed the .8 GPM (which is the max). Except # 4 which I believe the flow meter may be off (not sure) as this is the longest loop. I have new flow meters up to 2 GPM but will not install them until another 2 weeks or so (after the heating season). And within 10-15 minutes  from a cold start, the Delta was between 10-15 degrees. This will provide me even temperatures through the aluminum transfer plates, which was not the case before. This was with the mixing valve open all the way @ 140 degrees. Again, I do not know where I am at the chart because of the flow meters. Tomorrow I will run the heat to determine how long it will take to go from 67-68 until 70 degrees. Usually the time is about 2 hours with the B&G Pump. It will be cold tonight and temperature drops to 32 degrees. Chances are the heat will not even turn on at all.
    Changing out the pump was a piece of cake. I needed a fold out chair and my knees to hold the pump. The actual size of the NRF-36 length is exactly the same as the B&G 100 as nothing had to move. Installation was about 30 minutes, if not less. Replaced the washer/O-Rings with the new ones and used the old flanges that were already part of the system (Unfortunately they sent me the 3/4 NPT fittings and I need the 1").  The manifolds did not move. This was done by myself. Isolated all the shut off valves. Made sure I followed the instructions and filled the system with water first before I ran or turned on the pump. Pump is very quiet compared to the B&G 100 pump.
    With the Series 100, the total flow was 2.9 GPM and I always had a 30-40 difference between supply and return temperature. With the NRF-36, on the lowest setting, speed # 1, I am at 4.1 GPM. Based on the chart @ 4 GPM, that is about 19" of Head Pressure.  I did not have time to determine what the Delta T will be on this setting. Tomorrow I will be testing the system at speed # 1 and # 2 with different settings on the mixing valve. I will use the 110, 125 and 140 degrees at both speeds to determine the temperature from the supply and return.  Speed # 2 pushes me past the .8 GPM (max on flow meters) so this is hard to tell but I am assuming that I will be at a minimum of 1 GPM on each loop. Even on the highest speed and medium speed I can adjust the balancing valves on the return side and there was no noise or banging around in the pipes. My goal is 1 GPM, and I doubt that any more flow will be needed. One thing I noticed is the pump gets hotter then the Series 100 as it is a smaller pump.

    If anyone can answer this question I would appreciate it:

    I have a FLOW CONTROL VALVE 1" that is right after the boiler pipe on the supply side that is leaking. The plumber will be changing this out for a new one in about 2-3 weeks. Because there is so much resistance in the 3/8" pex tubing, is the valve really necessary? Does it serve a purpose? Is this Code? It is supposed to act as a check valve (whatever that means) and also to prevents hot water from migrating into a zone that is not calling for heat. 
    This post was edited by an admin on March 26, 2013 11:28 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 12:08 PM
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    FINAL ANALYSIS

    The reason why I purchased the pump is that eventually I will add 2 more loops in the kitchen only, either 3/8" or 1/2" which will give spacing every 8 " either all with 3/8" pex or 3/8" & 1/2" pex. I do not know if this combination will be over kill as I may now have uneven heating because of the bigger tubing. Nothing to worry about now.
    Attached is the spreadsheet of all the calculations that have been done for about 1 hour. Amazingly the boiler turned on for 3 minutes and shut off for 7 minutes. This is with only the radiant running and neither the 1st floor or 2nd floor + hot water holding tank. One day I will test the system with all 3 floors calling for heat. Next years project.
    If you look @ the sheet I was able to obtain a difference or lowest delta with the mixing valve allowing the most water to be mixed in with the warm water. This gave me an average temperature of 126 degrees with an average delta of 8. Considering this is in the sub-floor and it takes time for the heat to rise, should I be running the system with the mixing valve all the way opened? 
    Mixing valve fully opened with an average temperature of 133 degrees and an average delta of 16.  There is more consistency with the lower temperature.  The boiler did not change its cycle for on/off times. 
    Where should I be running the system? At which point. Mixing valve at 1 or at 6? Thank you.
     
    This post was edited by an admin on March 27, 2013 12:29 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 5:49 PM
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    Did you

    Get the longest loop to flow yet?

    Yes you should have the flo control valve in place to prevent ghost flows. Is the packing around the stem leaking?

    In viewing your spread sheet I have to ask what the outside temps were at those times?
    What is the design day temp used for the heatloss.


    You have 43 min of on time, and 15 min of off time in a 63 minute period observed. But yet your on times are 7 min.

    I will take it that this was one continuous call for heat?

    Is boiler set at 180*?
    Were all zones in the house calling for heat?
    Were only the radiant zones calling?

    It seems your bouncing off high limit frequently. Is the boiler correctly sized for the total heatloss of the structure?

    With your setup all you can do is set everything for design day supply temp requirements, and as it gets warmer than design day the boiler will cycle more. Or you could go down , and adjust the manual mix valve in relationship to outdoor temps. Or you could get a motorized mixing valve coupled with outdoor reset, and it will all be automatic as SWEI was trying to tell you.

    Otherwise it could be set at 120 now when temps are mild, and be reset to 140 next year when the weather gets cold.

    Your wrapping yourself up in the delta t of the loops,and forgetting about the supply temps your design needs.

    You could have narrowed your delta with the old circ if you would have lowered your supply temps to 120 also.

    To really dial things in you need to look at everything as a whole. You said it worked fine, but was it fine as far as satisfying the heat call? Were your floor surface temps even?

    Something else I would investigate is the rim joist insulation detail. With an under floor setup poor rim joist sealing, and insulating can really rob btus in the joist bay.

    Let us know
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 10:36 PM
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    Answers for Gordy


    Did you

    Get the longest loop to flow yet?

    Yes, I did. The longest loop and I checked the tubing at 180 feet (give or take 5 feet max) and this loop is at exactly .65 GPM which makes no sense. I believe the flow meter is off or something is wrong. I will know better when I swap the flow meters and fix the loops. If I have the same problem then I have to check the loops. Even at speed # 3 which the head pressure is huge does not push the loop past .8 and all the other loops are way past that, so I am assuming something is wrong. Maybe the manifold supply and return is not opened all the way. I will have to examine them to make sure nothing broke inside the manifold.

    Yes you should have the flo control valve in place to prevent ghost flows. Is the packing around the stem leaking?
    Yes, it is leaking. I tried tightening the nut but no luck. Very little leak. I have the new part and it was only $50. The plumber will be fixing a few minor items for only a few hundred dollars.

    In viewing your spread sheet I have to ask what the outside temps were at those times?
    The temperature this morning was 32 degrees outside and the water temperature in the manifold were at room temperature at 65 degrees. The water in the boiler I believe was about 130 because of heat in other parts of the home.

    What is the design day temp used for the heat loss.
    .
    I do not understand the question. Please explain.
    What is the design day temp used for the heat loss.
    .
    I do not understand the question. Please explain.
    You have 43 min of on time, and 15 min of off time in a 63 minute period observed. But yet your on times are 7 min.
    .
    What this spreadsheet is showing is that the boiler shut off for 7 minutes while the pump was pumping the water at all times. Then the boiler turned out at around 155-160 degrees (20 degree difference) and it took about 3 minutes to reach 180 degrees before the boiler shut off and then the cycle continued like clockwork.

    I will take it that this was one continuous call for heat?
    Yes, the temperature was at 68 degrees this morning and the temperature was 32 degrees outside. A continuous call for heat. It took quite a while to bring the temperature up in the kitchen because of the 16" spacing. About 2 hours. Under normal circumstances it would take about 3 hours with the old pump. Once the kitchen reached 70 degrees and thermostat shut the system down, the temperature increased to about 72 degrees, probably because of the heat buildup.

    Is boiler set at 180*? Yes, this is the minimum setting on the aquastat. The old aquastat was at 160.
    Were all zones in the house calling for heat?
    No, I had shut down all the other zones which were pretty much at 70 degrees so I can test the system out.
    Were only the radiant zones calling?
    Yes, only the radiant

    It seems your bouncing off high limit frequently. Is the boiler correctly sized for the total heat loss of the structure? I honestly believe the boiler is oversized for the home, based on my heat loss calculations.. I do not understand the "bouncing off high limit frequency", please explain. The boiler shutting down for 7 minutes and only taking 3 minutes to reach temperature seems pretty good. I can not adjust the differential in the aquastat.

    With your setup all you can do is set everything for design day supply temp requirements, and as it gets warmer than design day the boiler will cycle more. Or you could go down , and adjust the manual mix valve in relationship to outdoor temps. Or you could get a motorized mixing valve coupled with outdoor reset, and it will all be automatic as SWEI was trying to tell you.
    Otherwise it could be set at 120 now when temps are mild, and be reset to 140 next year when the weather gets cold.
    As long as the 20 Delta is sufficient so I have better spacing heating then I do mind leaving the mixing valve at 6 to keep the temperature up. The cycling times are consistent no matter what setting I used.

    Your wrapping yourself up in the delta t of the loops,and forgetting about the supply temps your design needs.
    Unfortunately the system was never designed properly, so I can not figure out properly the design needs. The only thing I can do is work with what I have. I could add the extra 2 loops in the kitchen and chances are that within the next year or so that will be done. Taking down the insulation or system will take no time whatsoever. I can have everything down in 2 hours. Putting it together will take time, probably 2 days. I have priced everything out and I can get everything done for under $1,000. Although working on possibly an extra radiator in the kitchen. I do not know if this is the time to do this. Definitely after next heating season.

    You could have narrowed your delta with the old circ if you would have lowered your supply temps to 120 also.
    I tried lowering the mixing valve and trust me that I have spend endless hours downstairs with the old B&G Pump. The supply temps were going in at the same temperatures as you see on the spreadsheet but the return side was between 30-40 difference. On setting # 6 because it took so long for the water to return the temperatures were even hotter. I have seen temperatures of 160 degrees going in and 110 coming back for a short period of time. There was not enough head pressure to overcome the difference. Now, at speed # 2 on the new pump and after about 15 minutes the return side loops are smoking hot (by hand). Before this only would the return be hot for a short period of time and then within minutes be cool to the touch again. The delta was not narrowing to any extent no matter whether I had the mixing valve either at 1 or at 6 or anywhere in between. The return temperature was at most 100 degrees max. I will know better the real difference in flow per loops when I install the new flow meters. There was too much inconsistent heat in the tiles. The kitchen was split in 2 sections. In each section only 50% of each section the tiles were at 75-80 degrees (surface temperature) and the next few tiles over where 5-10 degrees cooler. Because of the 16" spacing I was not getting even heat at all. At least now the areas that are over the aluminum transfer plates are all even, which is what is helping out.

    To really dial things in you need to look at everything as a whole. You said it worked fine, but was it fine as far as satisfying the heat call?

    The system worked fine on the coldest days (temperatures from 35 degrees to 25 degrees in the overnight) until the kitchen reached 68 degrees. If you tried to have the kitchen reach a temperature of 70 degrees, the heat and pumps ran for over 3 hours. Not only is the spacing 16", but because in the subfloor it takes time to reach the surface, etc.

    Were your floor surface temps even?

    The floor temperatures are not even in each tile. Tiles are 12". Only in the areas above the transfer plates. So hypothetically if each plate was center under each tile (which is not the case), that tile would be about 80 degrees and the next tile would be about 70-75 degrees. I will place 3 thermometers on the tiles next to each other after the system has ran to test out the surface temperatures to determine how fart apart the surface temperatures are.

    Something else I would investigate is the rim joist insulation detail. With an under floor setup poor rim joist sealing, and insulating can really rob btus in the joist bay.
    I have the silver bubble wrap stapled up real nicely. In addition I used special tape and there is insulation tucked in nicely in every area that you can think of. Of course there is possibly some heat loss, although I took my time insulating the area. This must work well because when the system shuts down at 70 degrees from a 68 degree start and 16" spacing, the heat rises another 2 degrees. So I believe there is so much heat buildup underneath the subfloor it continues to rise and reach a peak. Sometimes I come home even hours later and I can feel the heat still coming up and tiles are warm. Kids are always on the floor. A lot of times the winter coats and stuffed animals are still warm 6 hours later after I lift them up off the floor (again this area is the 8" spacing).
     
    Question: Given with what I have should I ben running the system at the 135 average temperature or the 125 average temperature. I believe I read somewhere that a 20 degree delta is sufficient for consistent heating. I have to work with what I have.

    Let us know


    Let us know
    This post was edited by an admin on March 27, 2013 10:45 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:33 PM
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    Design day

    Is the design outdoor temperature used to calculate your heat loss for the structure. It is a temperature that you may only see 1% of the heating season.

    So it appears you did your own heatloss calculations. What temp did you use for outdoor, and what temp did you use for indoor? And did you look up what outdoor design temp is for your area?
    This post was edited by an admin on March 28, 2013 6:41 AM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 11:34 AM
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    I have no idea

    I went on line and figured something out. If you can direct me to a website, I can easily design something. I used a website for heat loss based on square footage of each room and height of ceilings plus how well insulated the area is. House is well insulated. Here is the chart that I used. These are calculations. The lowest figures are the most and best insulation, while the highest is literally no insulation at all.
    www.bgmsupply.com is the website.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 28, 2013 11:36 AM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:18 PM
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    No idea what you have there

    Did it ask for your geographic location?

    That program is a guess as stated a " back of hand calculation"

    You need to perform a more thorough one than that. I think you will find your heat loss is high based on that program you used. With out knowing winter design temps for your location it's a guess.

    If you have your house in Alaska the heat loss will be higher than your house being in Illinois. The lower the outside temperature the higher the heat loss will be. Delta t drives this.

    So you must do your heat loss based on the design day for your area. This is going to be the coldest on average for a winter. Could be colder, or warmer, but its an average.


    Any type of heating, or air conditioning sizing calculations are based on mathematical equations it IS a science. The math works, but you need to plug in accurate numbers, or all is for nothing . Garbage in garbage out if you will.

    Was this system installed by you, or existing?


    You have provide a lot of information, but some of it has been inaccurate, and that turns into a dog chasing its tail.

    It is hard to trouble shoot over the Internet with out being there. There are a lot of variables some as simple as thermostat location to very complex.

    So lets kick this off with an accurate heat loss, and go from there that is always the first step even if it is just to replace the boiler. Slant fin provides a free one that is easy to use, and also in iPad app format. Do one with that,and compare the numbers to the back of your hand one. Tell me your location, and I can find the design temp for you. I will bet an accurate one is 40% lower than the one you did.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 28, 2013 5:52 PM.
  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 12:06 PM
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    Here are the surface temperatures of the Tiles

    Here are the surface temperatures. Each tube is snapped in to an aluminum transfer plate. There are 4 foot aluminum transfer plates, insulated with bubble wrap and then regular household insulation.

    The surface tiles that have 8" spacing of tubing measured at 12"  apart and with 3 different thermometers were 81 - 82 & 81 - 82 & 81 - 82 degrees. 

    The surface tiles that have 16" spacing of tubing measured at 12" apart and with 3 same thermometers were 77 - 78 & 78 - 79 & 78 - 79. This area has a thin sheet metal stapled underneath the sub-floor that covers the whole joist and then the transfer plate in the middle. The sheet metal does absorb and transfer some of the heat across the whole joist, but I am assuming not as well as the aluminum transfer plate. This could be the reason why the temperatures are pretty consistent, although lower.  

    At the end of the day, the difference between 8" spacing and 16" spacing is about 3 - 4 degrees.

    Temperature outside during the testing was 42 - 44 degrees F.
    This post was edited by an admin on March 28, 2013 12:10 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:01 AM
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  • SilverCheetah SilverCheetah @ 9:46 AM
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    Appreciate your help

    I will review this later this evening.
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