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I was all set to order my boiler... (24 Posts)
I was all set to order my boiler...I was all set to order a new Triangle Tube Prestige boiler.. .looks great... Stainless Steel Heat exchanger, wall-hung design and also was going to order the Smart Indirect tank to go with it. Then I told a plumbing buddy and he said he'd never heard of Triangle Tube boilers. He said I would be nuts to go with a boiler company that isn't a household name like Weil McLain or the like due to a lot of smaller companies going out of business and repair parts becoming hard to find.
Am I nuts for thinking Triangle Tube still? Their website says they've been around for 60 years, but can anyone weigh in if they are as tried-and-true at Weil McLain or others?
Knowledge of boilersIt doesn't say very much about your buddy's boiler product knowledge. Triangle Tube is a very respected and capable company. I'd certainly be choosing their products if your local supply house stocks them. If they only have WM, then you don't have many choices.
Triangle TubeThey have been out West here for most of my 33 years in the trade. Their products are top shelf. In my opinion, you would not be making a mistake to install one in your house.I'm often wrong, but never in doubt.
DittoTT is top shelf to be sure. And now for the mystery question. How did they get a name like Triangle Tube?
Mystery questionanswer goes back to WWII, when they made tankless HW coils having a triangular tubing cross-section. Interestingly, the HX they are best known for now has dimpled triangular fire tubes.
They are part of the ACV group, which is the EU equivalent of something like A.O. Smith here. Translation: they're not likely to disappear anytime soon.
BTW, the SMART indirects are relabeled and sold by a number of domestic boiler manufacturers.This post was edited by an admin on July 23, 2013 2:31 PM.
Ditto What The OthersHave said. Been in the biz for 25 years and they've been here since I started. Ask your buddy if Weil McClain makes the heat exchanger in the WM Series Condensing Boiler. They don't its the same HX as the Triangle. They import it from the same Polish Mfg."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
Your friendhas very limited knowledge . Fortunately for you we are here . Ask how many that frequent this site prefer WM ? I would venture a guess that many prefer something else . The TT boilers have been around for a very long time and are pretty certain to stay for much longer . BTW , Weil McLain's R&D department should be as talented as their marketing division .You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
That's Not Really FairRich, they have done a nice job developing their control. Name one American Boiler Manufacture that actually develops technology, they all more or less put together already developed technology by others. Haven't seen anyone develop LamdaPro type combustion on the American side accept for HTP's try at it.
I think the really last true R&D from scratch developed by any of them was Burnham in the development of the MegaSteam and G-Iron in the ES2,Series 3, ESC.. .ACV also doesn't make the Triangle HX, third parties do and a third party developed it. Let's be fair."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."This post was edited by an admin on July 23, 2013 6:49 PM.
Chrisdon't get all salty on me . I used Weil Mclain awhile ago and gave up on them . Too many calls out of my bed from next to my warm wife for product issues . Slow response , parts not available , they tend to rush garbage out the door instead of beta testing with a few select contractors and fix stuff as needed , SOS ! I prefer HTP ( being developed by guys like us ) and Buderus (oldest and biggest on planet) products , they are just a better fit for the way I design and the work I do . Might I add that these manufacturers products are top of the line and dependable as a Dodge slant six motor . What do you use by the way ? Relax !You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it wouldThis post was edited by an admin on July 23, 2013 7:55 PM.
Condensing Boiler of ChoiceViessmann. Now there's a mfg who does some serious R&D..The new (new to us) 200 with the 6.5 to 1 turn down on the B2HA-35 and the low end 12,000 on the B2HA-19 are going to fit in real nice. Disappointed in the price point of the new (again to us) 222F Combi or that would be a winner. Would end having to install an indirect in any 2 bath house with standard shower heads.
I'm not salty, just a saying nobody in the US does true R&D...That would be designing the entire boiler from the ground up. Burnham is working on some nice things with the Alpine, excited to see the end result."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
DisappointedI too am disappointed in the American manufacturers mod/con offerings,it's all me too,nothing else. Even though TT doesn't make HX they were 10 years ahead of the crowd and the Viessmann HX looks like same design as the low cost one most competitors use yet looks is where the similarities end!
10 yearsrobert 10 years ahead in what
Smklin10 years ahead of everyone else jumping on the firetube HX bandwagon
Actuallythey pioneered the firetube HX design. My understanding is that it was a joint effort between TT and the Polish mfg, but I do not have firsthand knowledge.
What they did do was decide not to bring another "me too" Giannoni design to the market. They invested time and money in doing something different -- and grabbed significant market share in just a few years. With the TriMax, they've invested again in a better HX design. It looks promising, but time will tell.
SWEIMy point exactly,imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!
best all aroundright now who has the best all around design
ViessmannConsidering they manufacture their HX, Control and Combustion system have to hang my hat on them. They have total control from R&D to what comes off the line. To my knowledge they are the only one with a limited lifetime warranty no different then a cast iron boiler. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong but I also believe they are the only condensing boiler that you can limit modulation rate of the heating circuit independent of the domestic hot water circuit. In other words where you have a need for a high domestic hot water btu/hr requirement you can have two different modulation rates.
The new 200 is ready for Vitocom, App access. Vitocom is not new either. The new 200 has been in service for 2 years across the pond.
only condensing boiler that you can limit modulation rate of the heating circuit independent of the domestic hot water circuit.The U-control in the W-M Ultra 3 boiler allows even more than that.
You can set the maximum firing rate of the boiler, when it is heating for the indirect, to any rate you like. You can also set the pre-pump and post-pump times. For domestic hot water, it does not modulate, but runs right up to whatever boiler temperature you request. 190F is the default, but since my hot water demand is low, and my indirect is oversized a little for my needs, I set it to 175F.
There are two more thermostat inputs that I use for my heating zones, each with its own independently adjustable maximum firing rate, and each with its independently adjustable reset curve. Each has its own independently adjustable pre-pump and post-pump times. There are some more features that can be set independently fore each of the three "zones."
Can Do The SameCan pre and post purge, control a recirc pump, heating schedule, DHW schedule. Setting curves for zones doesn't thrill me unless they were independent heating circuits with the curves controlled via a 3-way modulating mixing valve or variable speed circ. What happens when multiple zones call? You can set those zone modulation rates all you want but is the zone heat loss is less then the minimum firing rate of the boiler its useless..
If you going to quote me please include the entire quote. "Correct me if I'm Wrong But I Believe"...
you going to quote me please include the entire quote. "Correct me if I'm Wrong But I Believe"...I thought I had quoted you enough, since I assumed people had already read your posting, and the part I quoted was really too long already..
I do not think I contradicted you, at least not much. You said that you thought only Veissman were the only manufacturer that could control the modulation rate of indirect and heating zones separately, and I merely pointed out that W-M could do it too.
"Setting curves for zones doesn't thrill me unless they were independent
heating circuits with the curves controlled via a 3-way modulating
mixing valve or variable speed circ."
OK if it does not thrill you. But why restrict the methods of reset to just 3-way modulating mixing valves and variable speed circulators? Why not allow the firing rate of the boiler to control the temperatures as W-M do?
"What happens when multiple zones call?"
I assume what happens depends on how your system is set up. On mine, the highest priority load calling for heat gets control (at least most of the time), and its maximum firing rate and reset curve are applied. And of course, the required circulators are energized.
"You can set those zone modulation rates all you want but is the zone
heat loss is less then the minimum firing rate of the boiler its
What has this got to do with anything? If the boiler will not fire at a low enough rate for the current demand of the load, you are in trouble no matter what control system you have. But that really has nothing to do with whether you can control the heating to the indirect independently of the heating to the house.
WHY?Because every mfg out there is afraid to give the same pump control as they do across the pond. Give pump control then all the pieces of the puzzle will finally come together.
This is where you, Eastman and every other guy out there that can't accept that delta-t means everything fall on your faces. Not being rude either.
If you can have control of pumps then you can match the pumps flow to the modulation rate!!!!!!! Without it all these little so called fancy bells and whistles mean nothing. They are smoke and mirrors.
I don't care what any mfg says because off the record they will all tell you the same thing!! The glitch in mod/cons in North America is the lack of pump control period!!
You cannot get around gpm = btu/hr / (delta-t x 500) no matter what you do..This post was edited by an admin on July 27, 2013 9:46 PM.
What I find most perplexingis why they don't at least control the speed of the pumps which they SHIP WITH THEIR BOILERS. I would think that would be the first place start a running change process and might drive me to start including pumps with all my boilers. Less problems, larger % of total job cost, and more happy customers.
You are not alone. What you are saying is so obvious, yet I am amazed at how many times this argument arises. If the boiler manages the primary ECM circ, you will always have the perfect delta t. The only thing that matters on the system side is the average temp coming out of the primary. Returning lower temps to boiler maximizes efficiency. The biggest problem with mod cons is that the delta t is to tight under most operating conditions.
There are a lot more (and better) products out there than WM.They just are not breaking any technology barriers. It is great to see the passion you have for your boiler. I am sure you will quote me on that (a little annoying).
The mysteryIf you do a search on the wall "the euro cave" by miket., swampeast. You will find how mysterious the viessman control strategy was to us in the beginning. His observations of the 200 coupled with his gravity system and standing iron. You really have to read through his observations to take away what is so obvious now with viessman control.
This reinforces what Chris , and others are trying to say.
The big V has smoked the US boiler manufactures for so long it's really quite pathetic.
Viessman focused more on a solid HX, burner, combustion control, and pumping control than modulation. They were running 3:1, 4:1 while everyone else was thinking 5:1 was making things better. Now they are doing 6.5:1 to really add to the bricks and mortar.