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    Should I have separate system and boiler pumps? (42 Posts)

  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 12:18 PM
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    Should I have separate system and boiler pumps?

    I recently had a Cadet boiler installed for my radiant heating. The piping diagrams in the installation manuals show a boiler circulator pump and a system circulator pump on separate loops. The installer put in only one loop and one pump. Is this workable? The reason I ask is that I am getting lots of short (2 minute) cycles when the system calls for heat. (b02 and n03 error codes)
  • N/A @ 2:44 PM

    sounds

    Sounds like you had a furance ,instead of hdyronic heating, company did the work..
  • RobG RobG @ 3:13 PM
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    Please

    rjb, please be nice, it is the first rule of this website. It is called Heating help for a reason! It is not called "bash people who install furnaces". In fact most of us on this site have installed our share of furnaces in our time. It in no way precludes us from knowing hydronics. Please check your negativity at the door. Thanks.
    Michael, can you post some pictures of the boiler and the piping and describe where and what the piping goes to (cast iron radiators, baseboard heat etc.). Those boilers can be piped direct (one pump) or primary / secondary (multiple pumps) it all depends on the application. Can you also look up the error codes in your manual and let us know what they indicate.
    Thanks,
    Rob
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 8:21 PM
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    Picture

    I hope this picture helps.

    The boiler output connects directly to the only pump (a Grundfos UPC15-55SFC set at high speed) which feeds the gray tubing to the left.
    The gray tubing runs down to the floor below where it connects to a manifold which connects to 4 or 5 runs of 1/2" Pex tubing that provide radiant heat for the 600 sq ft apt.
    The gray tubing on the right is the return from the floor below and it connects directly to the boiler input.

    The "b02" code says "The main control board has received a call for heat too quickly after the previous call for heat has ended." Under corrective action it says "The control board will release the call for heat after 60 seconds." and "The control board will release the call for heat if the outlet temperature drops 10°F."

    The "n03" code says "The fan speed is being limited due to the temperature rise across the heat exchanger exceeding 55°F." The corrective actions include "Verify that the boiler is piped properly into the heating system." and "Verify that the boiler pump is set to the proper speed or that the pump is the proper size."

    The boiler also provides DHW which works great, so I didn't include that side of the piping in this picture.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 11:45 PM
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    Gray tubing

    loos a lot like 3/4" (or even 7/8" PEX) with some iron in the water.  Does it connect to manifolds with multiple 1/2" loops someplace?
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 12:01 AM
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    i noticed the connectors as well

    as the pipe size reductions . they appear to be to some fancy multicore product /s ,.
    maybe ....?
    Swie
    yah?no?
  • N/A @ 10:38 PM

    now ya saying?

    Now ya saying the whole system is on ONE pump???? Take more pixs and btter yet, draw a sketch thin king how's the system is piped, if you can..
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 10:52 PM
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    mixer missing ...

    i think your could benifit by a set point control and a i series mixer with reset on the field side .
    i am also wondering about the blue tank with a ..well what seems to be a 3/4" tap for potable i like the stainless steel pump however
    1. do you need stainless because of the tubing / type of pex?
    2. do you know what the precharge pressure is on that boiler expansion tank?
    i cant see all that well these days ,...however, it seems like the return could be piped with a temp gauge after it to determine return water temps for ease of trouble shooting this lash up.what does that sensor go to or is it a sensor taped to the pipe?

    ...................

    because you have very short pex loops the water shoots out of the boiler and bang right straight back at it . with what i would estimate to be close to 55 seconds or so.
    the boiler is satisfied in a hurry that way so, if the control stops the burn and the circ soon as it gets up to temp you will have a very choppy 'Ride"
    bang on bang off overshoot maybe and issues with getting the heat to the field.
    that circ may need to be requiring company on the boiler side with some "Bridges" or communication to the system side . the system side would likely benefit by being tempered water and running "Long" vs. the boiler side which you would temper as the onboard sensor actuated the boiler circ and burner .
    This post was edited by an admin on November 6, 2013 11:19 PM.
  • N/A @ 10:55 PM

    long time

    Long time no hear, Weezbo..
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:38 PM
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    *~//: )

    i feel so guilty ....
    because i took on a fight in an alligator contest and they ganged up on me and were keeping me on the ropes.
    lol...
    one of them hid my superman shirt , another the famed "All Seeing Eye" ,another snatched up my magic wand and another my clarvoyiant / mind reading hat i had stashed at the haberdashery. it was a rough go,.... because my crystal ball was snatched up my a mechanic when the old 4 X dually went down .
    there after i only had physics and math to go with to combat them .. it has been rough ..*~//: )
    good to see everyone slaying the dragons . you can maybe interpret what i am saying for today : )))
    i seem to forget sometimes that what i am saying is not everyone's road game.
    i do not see a quick fix to this young guys current problem , because even adjusting the three speed down probably wouldn't extend the run time more than a min or so.
    rjb, do you see another purge valve on the return to the boiler? some place maybe he could make a washing machine hose by pass to get some heat into the house ?
  • Zman Zman @ 11:37 PM
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    Primary/secondary

    Your boiler is suffering from low flow.
    Even though you could probably make it work with a larger circulator, the manual specifically calls for primary secondary. From a warranty point of view, I would just repipe it, just like the manual.
    Your installer did do a good job noticing the non O2 barrier polybutyle tubing and using stainless on the expansion tank and circulator.
    You do not need a mixing valve on a 1 zone mod/con system. The boiler does that for you.
    Carl
     
    This post was edited by an admin on November 7, 2013 7:38 AM.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:43 PM
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    Well now , a condensing unit...

    + circ , low loss header , amen .
  • N/A @ 11:43 PM

    yep

    I totally agreed with Weebzo here... will needs more than washing machice hoses here. Will needs a REAL hydronic heating company to make this work properly.
  • Eastman Eastman @ 12:47 AM
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    Can you describe the

    manifold in detail?  Is it possible the loops are partially shut off?
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 1:40 AM
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    Manifold

    Here's a pic. And I lied earlier. It's 3/8" tubing under the floor, not 1/2".
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 2:39 PM
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    free chubby pipe already in system..?

    " (the short cycling thing can happen with boilers oversized to the heat loss with condensing boilers thats tuneable somewhat
    with modulation thats even more dialable
    from what you say it seems that your potable water system might be of help if it is in the form of a water maker .
    >because it can act as a buffer tank sorta
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 1:58 AM
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    Low loss header?

    OK, I think you guys were kidding about the washing machine hoses :) But should I really have it repiped and is a low loss leader something that I really should have? I know I'm going to end up spending some money to get this fixed. I just wanna make sure it all works as it should when all is said and done. A tech is coming out Monday morning and I'm pretty sure I don't wanna ask him about washing machine hoses.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 4:38 AM
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    Mike ,

    you want the lowest temp fluid you can maintain pretty much headed back to the boiler ,
    and there needs to be flow through the boiler when it is running to see savings day to day, you look about in the guide on near boiler piping , the manufacturer will have preferred
    piping diagrams , they will spell out flow rates etc through the boiler the offer.
    after seeing the remote station header , i am inclined to think Swie was correct . because on that end of the ticket it is all different from what left the boiler room . the fittings there seem to be completely different from what showing at the station ,...maybe we were both correct.
    because at first i thought like he did this is probably pex with iron in suspension ...' no . wait! those look to be press multi core fittings over the pipe where they connect to the 3/4" '
    that is why i asked you earlier about the pex.
    and asked him if he could allow for the possibility of it being some multi core product.
    right now with you mentioning the 3/8 ths i see a leak in the pic with what looks like a calcium build up from the transition fitting or the tubing to the transition fitting to the header.
    leaks bad . despite lengthy conversations with what is inside the pipe being outside the pipe not being a leak lol...sorry ... i digress.......any way new water might be what is happening maybe they can clean that up a bit before going any further .
    look for what piping arrangement reduces the return the most, look for what flow through the boiler is required , the header looks one inch and your supply to the current stainless circ looks one inch after which it turns to 3/4 ...
    not too long back i suggested modulating condensing with variable flow seemed to be what would further cut down short cycling , it was a while back like i say , it had to be repeatedly explained to me why that was not going to happen ,
    well, er, buh i think it has.
    not all boilers are built the same it could be someone was lurking who considered variable speed variable temp as workable most went with the constant flow variable temp idea , however , this century i have heard it indeed does exist.
    any way , low loss headers are like fat pipe think of it like to skinny pipes come out of your boiler and go into this fat pipe one at the near top and another near the bottom then see in your minds eye two more pipes coming out the other side , going to an from your floor heat .
    the heat now follows the path of least resistance ...it basically goes wherever it is easiest for it to go . the cooler water sorta falls down the hotter more excited fluid rises ,
    now we will add some circulators ,
    the gravity thing could," still happen": ))

    ok now we turn on say the side that goes to the heat the water that is mostexcited is right there and sorta just flows to where the circulator is directed , now that heat moves to cold,....
    it jumps ship on its journey back to the chubby pipe all the while being displaced with excited water in front of the circ.well wherever the more excited fluid came from it became cooler,therefore it fell back to the boiler , not only that some of the cooler water coming back may also fall back through the fat pipe down such that there is now way cooler water near the lower half and more excited (Heated) fluid near the top . ok
    so now we turn on the boiler circ the heated fluid now moves more rapidly out thru the boiler and back to the boiler , another fat piece of pipe as it were ...the coolest fluids falling down and the heated fluid moving thru th,e circ to the llh where the other circ still "on" , by the way, sorta tells the stuff that it has a place to go that's even easier to go ....the cooler water on the other hand is now begrudgingly headed down to the bottom of the fat pipe and down to the boiler.....
    ok so now this condition makes the boiler no feel satisfied ,..so it has a thought as it were "Fire the after burners Scottie ! me no likey!'
    Welll Scotie cranks up the burner a notch and man that stuff is really getting excited and moving to beat the band it just wants to go go go ....so it heads for the fat pipe and just jumps thru there onto the train headed for the system side now we have stuff zooming thru the fat pipe if for some reason the water from the system gets back and its still excited it will jump on that same train headed outta there and go right back into the heat side emitter path way .thru the circ back to the emitters with some of the excited tourists on the boiler side so some of it may descend because there is no more "Space" for it on that go round so as it decends it trades places with some of the less eager to trave passengers coming back from the heat emitter path way and all of them cooling down go to the boiler the boiler sees the cooler fluid and goes hey wait a min Scottie things aint right just yet ',"
    so Scottie says Well we are geenher alll we Got Captain buh i will see if i can get a little more outta her!'
    lol
    so now he and rhe circ are wheeling these excited tourists straight thru to the otherpath way asap.
    which means now really warm water is coming back to the boiler so boiler is now happy and shuts off . these fluids are working on Principals...lol one heat goes to cold , two whatever enters a T must exit a T , to name two right quick , so ok hold on ,
    there is another case where the boiler is habby the field is habby no bollys going anywhere ....:)
    the field circ suddenly decides it aint habby .. so it rolls ,...some of the fluid coming back is pretty excited so it just rolls right back up and gets on the path the boiler is habby so its doing what it does when its habby basically, not much to cost you money. still some of the excited fluid jumps on board not too many at first because the emitter side is still plenty excited and so , it sorta just milling around with its hands in its pockets : )))
    then the boiler circ is sent a message that it needs to move a few more btus out the equasion to make way for some cooler ones falling down the return ... and the whole cycle begins again.
    both flows can be happening in the same chubby pipe coaxed or induced by circulators or the boiler.
    what happens with this arrangement is by changing the flow rates and temps and depending on the strategy given the system side the circulation temps can be brought down to lowest temps to satisfy the demands ...same same on boiler side ...
    some really large systems can be dialed down such that they may roll for days and not have the boiler even run , the circulators are rolling and moving btus to various places within the system ...low loss headers are now machine made ! lol...
    you basically can find them for residential through commercial sizes , they have parts within them and they have now ones with a magnet that is outside of the lower flow to draww the metal and particles that get clustered up with them down .so it pulls iron particles Swie was mentioning down out off the system.
    we have a resident God as it were of these things : )
    maybe he will stop by see this and go ...cha i may as well chirp up the nice shiney top o the line LLH ,... seeing as i am here ... he will likely give you some idea on even more parts that might benefit,... . small areas become micro zones and then there are all kinds of build design features folks have to incorporate to make happen,... thats ahead of boiler installation and placement of parts and pieces .
    600 sqft seems like a healthy enough zone . i forgot where you said you were ...the short cycling thing can happen with boilers oversized to the heat loss with condensing boilers thats tuneable somewhat with modulation thats even more dialable from what you say it seems that your potable water system might be of help if it is in the form of a water maker . because it can act as a buffer tank sorta ...meaning it can because it is insulated hold temps in a body of fluid longer than the boiler , that means the water evacuates to the heating system at a higher temp than the boiler and until it chimes in as not satisfied the boiler wont run .

    i hope all that gives you some insight on what i said . look for that product in the diagrams you have . and read whatever they have under control strategies .
    Weezbo.
  • Zman Zman @ 7:51 AM
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    Short Version

    So,
    If you pipe it like the manual and don't use any washing machine hoses, It will work just fine.
    The manual tells you which circ you need on the boiler side. If you can read the footage numbers on your tubing we can help with the sizing of the radiant circulator. I would guess that the 15-55 will work for both.
    Carl
  • SWEI SWEI @ 9:17 AM
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    Boiler sizing

    What size Cadet is this, and did anyone perform a heat loss calculation on the space? 
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 10:41 AM
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    Live and learn

    Thanks so much for the Star Trek explanation Weezbo. It was lol fun and informative to read although I had to read it twice (or 3 times) before a lot of it sank in. And thanks Zman also. Your posts are clear on the first read-through :)

    So anyway, I was watching the boiler input and output temps last night. It took the boiler about 35 seconds to reach setpoint+10 degrees and shut off. (Input temp was 105. Setpoint is at 140.) When I lowered the pump speed from high to low it only took about 28 seconds. (Oh, and in both cases the flame modulates down to 20% almost right after it ignites.)

    I didn't watch it when the thermostat first called for heat, but I can guess the input temp would have been 75-80 (my floor temp?) so getting past the magic 55 degree temp rise would happen pretty quickly and I'd get the n03 error.

    I also timed how long it took after the boiler shut off for the output temp to drop back down to the input temp of 105. Just under a minute. The manual says that the boiler holds .6 gals of water, so that would give me a GPM of about .6, right? The boiler is supposed to get between 6.4 and 11.2 GPM depending on the "Temperature Rise Application" whatever that is, but it seems like I'm well below that. And I'd guess that I'd need a frickin big pump to get those flow rates with the piping the way it is.

    Oh, and the footages on the Pex tubing... They are not labeled, so I can only guess based on the sq ft of visible floor space and the 12" Pex spacing that I have about 550-600 ft total.

    Swei, it's a Cadet Combi CCN120 and as far as I know nobody did a heat loss calculation.

    It was 20 degrees outside here in Colorado last night and even though the apt is very well insulated, the damn boiler cycled on and off for hours :(

    I guess I'll make sure the tech at least repipes it right and puts in a second pump. I'll talk to him about the "fat pipe" thingy and hope his name's not Scottie :)

    Thanks to all for educating me. I love this forum.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 10:51 AM
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    Oversized boiler

    600 square feet would be pushing it with a CDN040.  Is that the entire load?

    The 120 is going to short cycle forever unless you add a buffer tank.
  • Zman Zman @ 11:10 AM
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    Ouch!

    I saw the 3/4" pipe and assumed you had a CDN040 boiler.
    Swei is absolutely correct on the oversized/buffer conclusion.
    Primary/secondary will help a bit because it will increase flow through the floor, it will not fix the problem.
    Your existing setup is probably moving less than 1.5 GPM
    Carl
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 11:34 AM
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    Live and learn more

    I feel like I got sold a lemon by a used car salesman :(

    He recommended it because there's a large (80 gallon) jacuzzi tub in the bathroom. And it does work great for that.
    When it modulates down to 20% will it still be oversized? (maybe I could run some washing machine hose over to my neighbor's apt and add to my heat load. lol.)
    Damn, now I have to learn about buffer tanks??
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 12:39 PM
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    OMG

    Buffer tanks aren't cheap! So how do I know if I really need one? How do I do a heat load calculation? The apt has a loft so does that add to the heat load? (ceiling height varies from 8 to 18 feet).
    And what about different flow rates through the primary and secondary loops? Or how the two loops are connected at the common pipe and the length and diameter of the common pipe? Will any of that help me get by without a buffer tank if the system is really oversized?
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 2:56 PM
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    go ghetto

    and set up a mini district heating system :)
    then you can sell metered btus and hose in the block ...ok ok not gonna happen :)
    with a twenty man Hot tub we would have had a chance : )) ok sorry, yah a fat pipe will let the system roll , the boiler side needs to see some action filling a water maker to temp would do it. the differential of the water maker would be the thing that would become your "limiter".
    one very smart guy asks the question ,
    "Why not 100 degree DT?"maybe you can search that here and follow along with what he is saying and modify your thinking of the possibilities in your situation.
  • Zman Zman @ 12:57 PM
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    Electric water heater

    You can use an electric water heater as a buffer tank.
    You can do the calculations but it is a pretty sure thing that a boiler that big will short cycle. Is your tubing in a slab?
    Carl
  • RobG RobG @ 2:55 PM
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    Air Bound

    Did the heat ever work? It sounds as though you're not moving any water. Have you tried power purging the system? I'm pretty sure that I heard that that boiler can be direct piped, however it did not show it in the "conceptional" drawings. I would try purging the air. However I do agree it should be piped primary / secondary to ensure proper flow across the heat exchanger because loop lenghts are unknown there is no way to calculate the head pressure
    Rob
    This post was edited by an admin on November 7, 2013 3:37 PM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 4:13 PM
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    Lochinvar Cadet

    Is a Giannoni-based design.  The 120 HX presents 25.4 feet of resistance at a 20ºF ∆T, so I don't think I'd try piping one directly to a floor.  Only 9 feet at 35ºF ∆T.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 7:04 PM
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    could be as you say ,

    although i am inclined to think he does have hefty flow through the emitter , it is just "Choppy"
    another individual who stops in every so often likens what is going on to , the math doesn't always fit reality ,
    or Do you wanna be a Billionaire?
    our guys here savey plenty Mike , were it air bound , i think the boiler side would have shut down even sooner. like RobG said .
    what is happening basically is there is no shedding the BTUs fast enough,
    in less than a min,, even were it able to preform that feat ,the next minute , whatever that DT was would have to INCREASE so even higher temp would have to be all about conditioning the space and the boiler would likely have to be able to win the championship of high hurdles in the Olympic arena.
    with a water maker standing at say 160 and the boiler about to kick on , i can turn on the call for the water maker thru its circ and drive the boiler temp up higher and faster than the burner lol..the boiler will see circulation , bang! if the water inside was 140, the heat would roll for the cold , the boiler .
    say the boiler was at 55 now the boiler really catches a slug of hot water at over 100 DT.
    the field side emitters could not shed that , so theres the case for field side piping and primary secondary and parallel primary .
    the heat source can be the water maker . the boiler if it were locked ( Hydraulically separated from the water maker by close spaced T's in a secondary) the heat could be sent thru to the emitters .also off the secondary , that does not mean that it is the cure all for short cycling it just means that to some extent hydraulic separation and its use , changes slamming heat straight to the floor, as it exists now.
    pulsed injection like he has is real choppy. so i suspect with that and a circulator that meets the flow thru put of the boiler to fat pipe might give the boiler control a
    chance to fire long enough for the control to kick down lol.. one of the things i read from Mike was that the fan had kicked down and then locked out. so we are headed in the direction of him having heat . i think he needs constant circulation thru the heat emitters , having purges set up and temp gauges set up is good for trouble shooting for sure ,
    a separate boiler pump is a big ten four if the thing is oversized .
    so Mike, is there a water maker ?

    .............
    i been writing and erased half of it while fielding phone calls and gettingg ready to roll some 2000 ft of radiant heat in this weekend and get it ready for inspection and got side tracked a while apparently i been at this for over three hours lol..
    i hope that helps.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 7, 2013 7:20 PM.
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 9:15 PM
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    Oversized?

    This Cadet boiler was a replacement for a Heatmaker HW-M2-130. That was the original boiler that was installed when these apartments were built. I'm guessing it was 130 MBH.

    One of my other neighbors (a smaller apt) had hers replaced over a year ago with a Prestige Excellence which is 30-110 MBH. I've watched it work. It doesn't short cycle. And it's a single loop with only one pump.

    What am I missing?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:53 AM
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    CDN040

    is what you are missing.  Lowest firing rate of any gas-fired mod/con you can get (9,000 BTU/hr.) 
  • Zman Zman @ 11:09 PM
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    Boiler

    Since you don't have a heat loss calculation we will have to guess a bit. The heat loss for your 600 square foot apartment is likely no less than 9,000 BTU. Unless it is a tent, It is absolutely no more than 18,000 BTU. For this reason it is safe to say that both your old boiler and your new on are significantly oversized.
    You neighbors triangle tube can run on a single circulator because the heat exchanger in a triangle tube is a different design that has very little resistance. Your boiler has pretty high resistance.
    The triangle tube has quite a bit more water volume than yours. This helps with the short cycling.
    Hope this helps,
    Carl
  • Eastman Eastman @ 12:34 AM
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    interesting

    It appears the previous boiler had an integrated buffer with tankless coil.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 1:46 AM
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    ok thank you .

    the designs of boilers like triangle tube and that munchkin inside a tank deal are way different the extra buffer or tank stabilizes the burn to meet that tank temp which allows you to then sip off the tank temp before the burner runs .
    it is even possible your 600 sq ft place is pulling away 4200 btus and the boiler is just not liking that from its High fire then step down it could be the circ is headed at a blocked port of some sort or the stainless steel circ has wrong direction, small... air lock needs to be burped, i am inclined to think the three Swie ,Zman and Eastman are on to this like cheap suit ....
    question is still though, what do we offer him to solve for his solution ?
    i was thinking that because i flipped a circ like this around maybe somehow the flow is bass ackwards . i either did not install the internal flow or i took it out as well because a flow check is a liability waiting to happen ....if water is not allowed to circulate at any time in our latterals the home owner is the guy who owns that problem.
    our pit orrifice have scoops that head into and away from flow this causes flow in the two pipes from the main over 90 feet one way and you must install the grunfoss stainless steel to aid in that flow ,
    if a lot of water is used water can actually come both from the supply and the return Latteral .therefore they allow us to use one in ch meters or even 1 1/4 X 3/4 X3/4 T's as supply to the building off our latterals . we have then more fixture units we can Load in our calcs on a home or business.
    any way , the point being , you have to admitt the remote chance as it may be of a stuck check in a new circ seems like we ought explore that vauge possibility . because it sure is a flow type deal and not able to emmit heat fast enough . it sure made some difference when Mike shut the speed down on the circ which seems more like flow issues or maybe limit design parameters.
    ....................
    "E00 Invalid Lockout
    E01 Memory Lockout
    E02 Fan Speed Fault
    E04 Flow Switch Fault
    E05 Flame Out of Sequence
    E06 Auto Reset Hi Limit
    E07 Air Pressure Switch
    E08 Heat Exchanger Limit
    E09 Auxiliary Limit
    E11 No Flame Running
    E12 No Flame Ignition
    E13 Flue Temperature Limit
    E15 Manual Reset Hi Limit
    E18 Outlet Sensor Differential
    E19 Flue Sensor Open/Short
    E21 Outlet Sensor Open/Short
    E22 Inlet Sensor Open
    E23 Inlet Sensor Short
    b01 Setpoint Met
    b02 Anticycling
    This post was edited by an admin on November 8, 2013 2:07 AM.
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 2:20 PM
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    OMG 2

    The tech guy came out today and watched the damn thing cycle every 2 minutes and said that's what it's supposed to do. Needless to say I got pumped up and fired up and reached my setpoint pretty quickly :) Lucky for him I'm not oversized :)
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 6:52 PM
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    M....*~//:)ichael

    i seem to see you have picked up some of our "speeK" or whatever Jargon or special language or the vernacular is referred to these days.
    This experience will probably make you want to join in with the highly excited passengers and hydraulically separate that guys hand from your wallet. lol
    Did you happen to do some pump curve investigations after Swei's one liner on the head and gpm requirements of your boiler ? not to worry , we have .
    i will say ,he is correct that tech, that is what it is supposed to do all right ...lol
    RobG has provided you with a no thrills no frills LLH did you check the depiction of it in the I/O ?
    that manual probably was your dead sea scroll once you opened it and began with the translation and transliteration of the ancient scroll of the loc Cadet installation and operation guide.
    we have seen you quote directly from this, i some times fire up my Mandarin and quote from Confucius to alleviate different problems . most here have or are a walking encyclopedia , ;))
    Do good and look not unto whom an old plumber and carpenter/shipbuilder once said.
    we take that to heart around here so lets go with that for now.
    Dan Siggy HR and Mark have another thread going right now answering some ponp
    question ... in a very real way what they are speaking too verifies what your tech said ,
    "That is what it is supposed to do ."however these words are somewhat an enigma : )))
    or might say it carries more than one meaning.
    Little bit like taking your car to the shop to be fixed because it wont start, two weeks later you are called to come get it
    you get there they hand you the bull er bill and you pay it then they hand you the keys , you go get in put the key in the ignition turn the key and...
    it wont start.
    ok so you go back ask them how come it wont start ...well they tell you ,
    we replaced: the alternator , the trailer hitch connection, the new headlights, the new starter , serpentine belts, battery, electric fuel pump,
    "We are finished with it"

    They are finished with it carries somewhat the same meaning .
    Where we are attempting to guide this endeavour is slightly afield of that interpretation. I wish i was psychic like everyone else around me then i would not have these problems, is how i feel about it.
    Today while you have the chance read that thread by Mike M because hidden within those replies are answers to what is happening with your heating system.
    What is being related is , over coming friction or doing work at the easiest place to start.
    your boiler has what i would call "reluctance" so we must apply certain mechanical advantage to overcome that...
    the scroll states , that. it refers to an entity know as head pressure having to be overcome ...through the boiler . and there are flow requirements as well.
    Our circulators are not a Pressure pump like say a pressure washer ,our pumps are more like "Enable" aikido experts . when someone attacks an Aikdo Master ,he moves in a small circle and guides the oncoming force into correct efforting , allowing it to continue on its way with the least amount of energy expended on his part. this is known as "Right Effort" and the Inner circle controlling the Outer circle. This enables the force to correct its Thinking or possibly come to enlightenment in like a Zen type moment of recognition , it the circ pump allows the water this chance to recognize , that today it will be continuing upon a new journey , Unfortunately, all the right effort in the world cannot produce a single thought and water being Lazy rather than stupid will continue on its path, continually seeking the path of least resistance.
    Some situations require a bit more help to overcome resistance so the Master adds a little more right effort this may cause another circle to occur in the oncoming force this is where the master adds a little More directive to persuade continuous right efforting by the water on its path . He applies the use of his Inner Ki channels it thru the water and it manifests as an entirely new circle in the physical world . This is causing the water to now remove obstacles in its new path as the Masters Head is being revealed in its actions. that is what we call Head pressure being overcome ...lol
    Some of our circulators use these techniques to overcome resistance or reluctance .
    They are like the circulators 26-99's ,0011 ,0014's 008's ,Astro 30 , they add energy to overcome resistance and it does that rather than say Encouraging any further misdirected efforting . Water will run away if that looks easiest to it ...:))
    Ok , water will leak out of the relief valve ...thats the easiest place it can get away.
    when it runs away it creates a void air and gas think and act upon the idea or principal of ,"HOW DO I GET OUTTA HERE?"lol so it hurrys away from wherever it was sure it could get out ,(The captive air tank )to get out. supply water sees the opportunity and zooms along to fill the easiest space it can get to. That is why different Akido masters do not teach Hunbun Aikido ,like the famed Master, Morihei Ueshiba . This type of person is unique in that he could do what needed to be done , and no more or no less.
    We have some circulators that are trying to do all that , as in the example of the Alpha circ . however like all component things they are subject to certain physical restraints and decay. therefore a lot of circs exist that "Specialize", some for overcoming the head pressure and resistance and others that specialize in speeding things upon their journey.
    Here we call them high head and Flat curve pumps. you can somewhat look at it like weight lifters vs track runners ones a little beefy the other a sleeker type individual. : ))
    The Scroll , is saying that you need a weight lifter that also can go 440 he has to go a bit of a distance and he needs to be able to lift the weight . It also suggests that a place it can Time out , the LLH , would be a good idea ; ))
    it is early winter here and the evening temps allow rain to be happening even though there is snow and ice upon the ground , our winter so far has me cheering for Global warming the rain is telling me i will be seeing green soon. You can share in that , look up Taco 008 circulators .... i just had a 00-5 stainless in my hand . its name is 005-SF2 i will have to leave soon ...before i do look for the pump curve information in the Scrolls and in the place you find a chart on the 008 ...see if there is some approximate equivalent in TACO ....008 SF (Steel Flange)might be it's name .
    Thats after you have a chance to peruse the PONPC thread ...it is a must read because of the many channels of communications , it adds sound and light to our discussion .
    Weezbo

    ,
  • RobG RobG @ 3:01 PM
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    Buffer tank

    Your best bet to get the system working correctly would be to use a small electric water heater (without the electricity hooked up) as a buffer tank / low loss header. that will give you primary / secondary piping, and solve the pumping and short cycling issues. You really need a hydronic pro to do this right. Where are you located? Maybe we can recommend someone. I thought your boiler was a fire-tube type heat exchanger, not a Giannoni which is quite restrictive.
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 1:22 AM
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    Works great now

    They split the loop into primary secondary and added 2nd pump. No more cycling :)

    Thanks to all for posting. I learned a lot :)
  • RobG RobG @ 5:14 PM
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    No Charge?

    They didn't charge you did they? What kind of cycle times are you getting?
    Congrats on getting it taken care of. Is the outdoor air reset hooked up, if not, they need to  come back out and install it as your daughter is losing out on efficiency and comfort without it (the boiler comes with the sensors and controls
    Rob
    This post was edited by an admin on November 15, 2013 5:18 PM.
  • Michael_R Michael_R @ 10:39 PM
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    No charge :)

    It doesn't cycle at all!!! It fires up once or twice a day and runs for maybe an hour and a half modulated at 20%. With the setpoint at 125 the floor (thin slab) heats up to around 85. No, they didn't install the outdoor sensor but I'm not going to make a big deal about that (it's like pulling teeth with these guys). I stuck a 220K ohm resistor across the outdoor sensor terminals so the system doesn't give me the u09 error and always thinks it's -26 outdoors. LOL
  • Zman Zman @ 11:28 PM
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    Nice...

    Good to here you have it worked out.
    Sometimes slabs have enough mass to act as a bit of a buffer.
    I think you should hook up the outdoor sensor. It is just two wires and some settings that you are probably familiar with.
    Sometimes the theoretical calculations are out weighed by what really happens in a heating system.
    Thanks for the follow up
    Carl
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