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    monoflo (71 Posts)

  • Paul S Paul S @ 2:50 PM
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    monoflo

    hey everyone I got called to a no heat call.... the customer was having problems with her bathroom not heating. some knucklehead removed a radiator that was attached to a monoflo system.... and attached 80 feet of half inch radiant tubing obviously it does not heat.... my question is that I read in one of Dan's books I do not remember which one that I can install a circulator pump on the supply-side of the branch piping to the radiant tubing...(original installers used two monoflo tees to divert water to this radiator) and wire the pump with the system pump so on a call for heat both pumps will run....and I will be using a mixing valve before pump to lower water temp....can I do this? And will this work? I know the temperature control will not be good thanks Paul s
  • Rich Rich @ 3:06 PM
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    What SWT

    would you require at design ? and what is your GPM requirement ?  You may be able to control this very well .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Paul S Paul S @ 3:46 PM
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    btu

    The heat loss of bathroom is 9000 btus...I do not know the exact loop length because a contractor installed it...I guess the required gpm is 1gpm....using 20f drop....they used 1/2"pex .. I am just getting paid to get it working.... customer will not go for something like a iseries mixing valve...the general contractor who messed it up is paying me....he already called five or so companies who said its not fixable...and last contractor thought it was air and installed a purge setup with no luck ....thanks Paul s...but give me some ideas I'll try to push better control
  • icesailor icesailor @ 4:46 PM
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    Mono-flo's

    I personally don't think you can fix it like you suggest without creating other problems. "The Laws of Unintended Consequences". If however, you can run the PEX back to someplace near the boiler or at least before the first take-off into the system and return after the last one, it might work. Feed the bathroom with 3/4" PEX to the 1/2" PEX to help do away with some resistance.
    That's only my opinion though.
  • Robert O'Brien Robert O'Brien @ 4:59 PM
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    9K Heat loss?

    How big is this bathroom?
  • Paul S Paul S @ 6:14 PM
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    heat loss

    Heat loss for bathroom was not very accurate..bathroom is big it's 12x12...with three large windows...and half the floor is over a unheated space...with three outside walls......general contractor installed radiation (about 80 ft of 1/2"pex)...I really need to make this work some how....why wouldn't this work...there is only one more radiator after these tees....the original installer a very long time ago used two monoflo tees for this radiator....need a solution....thanks Paul s
    This post was edited by an admin on November 15, 2013 6:17 PM.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 6:27 PM
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    80 ' of active radiation?

    Are you saying you have 80' of active radiation for the room? With Mono flows, you would need 3/4" to get proper flow. Another reason why I finally gave up. Carpenter/Builders that started thinking they were "Heaters". and started doing their own heat after reading a book and having PEX Supply design and sell them a heating system.
    Where I used to work, one of these "Green Contractors" bought and installed a huge In-Floor system with an aluminum boiler and cast Iron circulators with copper and Pex. The whole thing plugged up with iron plaque and stopped working within one heating season in the multi-million designer dream home. With no way to fix the buried system.
    Then they want YOU to fix their Plumbing Picasso.
    Rots of Ruck.
  • Paul S Paul S @ 7:11 PM
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    icesailor

    I'm dealing with this type of stuff all the time...and most of time it's not even a general contractor it's a heating and a/c company who is supposed to be qualified to do this type of work....and these are guys who have 30years on me....(if that means anything)over here in NYC and I guess where ever you go there are people like that..."knuckleheads"as Dan would say...that's why I LOVE this site......and yes there is about 80ft of active radiation in the floor buried in concrete...I tried to read the length that's marked on the pex....but the contractor said not to because he used two pieces of pex and buried the coupling in the bathroom floor...knucklehead....the 80ft of pex is connected to the two 3/4" pipes that the original radiator was connected too...I located in the basement the two monoflo tees that feed that bathroom...and going to install a pump to get them heat....Paul s
    This post was edited by an admin on November 15, 2013 7:12 PM.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 12:55 AM
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    wow ,

    It is different for sure .
    let me see, monoflow , no circ radiant , no mention of any bypass or what i call "Books"
    so you are blasting whatever temp is in the mono flow loop and shooting for a hope and prayer and a hail Mary Pass....whatta deal...well ok i will give you some idea s ,
    go to the supply and return risers and stick in a ball valve on both. chop out the risers to the pex .
    get 120 feet of hydraulic 1/8 " line its a stiff plastic.line
    .
    Feed that line through the pex in the floor . when it comes out the other end tape the piece you fed thru there .
    measure to the tape from the side that is the shortest distance from the tape , write that down and subtract that from 120 '
    .that will be about as useful as a hens tooth buh at least we have something that might give us a clue.as to loop length in 144sq ft room .

    ok , another "Idea", if the line wont go thru walk away.

    you can always use that tool we just made with a couple more bucks into it to thaw most pex runs in floor.

    if it makes it thru you need to spin in two purge valves on both sides of the pex and take and add a discal dirt separator to the supply side of your purge pump and drop a hose into the same bucket from the opposite end of thee loop.
    start with like 3 gallons of clean water and run it around and around thru your purge pump...when you have what seems like flow
    take the bucket of water and set it aside for a while.
    now flush your dirt separator.
    in a glass or something put it aside and then go run clean water thru the pump again in some mop sink or something to clean it up a bit.
    before i say anything more , you tell me the length and what the glass of water shaked out ....and go over to the bucket and carefully and slowly pour off some of the water ...
    what does that look like?
    ok ?
  • Paul S Paul S @ 6:44 AM
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    bypass

    "No mention of any bypass"....in my first post I said that I would add a mixing valve....so basically you guys are saying it will not work, without adding a seperate zone off the boiler. Paul s
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 9:10 AM
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    may be i read this as ,

    "customer will not go for something like a iseries mixing valve..

    andI know the temperature control will not be good thanks Paul s.

    as you want to get accurate info to produce the best that you can rather than a dumb mix ,

    this is America you can TRY anything once , you might not get away with it and it does not mean you Can do something it means you can TRY ... i make different distinctions in the things that i say . you are hearing whatever you wish to hear , thats fine ... you may do the same yah?
    Hope that helps,....

    "
    "
    This post was edited by an admin on November 16, 2013 9:27 AM.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 6:23 PM
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    Will it work?

    If one works, the other won't. And the one that won't work will be the new one.
    I love a good challenge and will go to no end to fix something. I don't think that this can be fixed with a simple fix. It almost reminds me of that thing we drew in High School Drafting Class, the things with the tube that was an optical illusion that couldn't be built.

    My mother used to tell me a story/poem when I was a little guy.
    There once was a thing
    That couldn't be done
    And no one could do it.
    Along came a man
    Who thought he could
    And so he set right to it
    He tackled the thing
    That couldn't be done
    And by God, he couldn't do it.
    Anything can be fixed, some things are harder than others. That will be hard, not easy.
  • Zman Zman @ 8:34 AM
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    Mono

    Why not cut in 2 closely spaced tees in the main pipe and then use a thermostatic mixing valve and a circulator?
    Carl
  • Paul S Paul S @ 9:18 AM
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    weezbo

    I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. But I was talking about just using a thermostatic mixing valve. and Carl I guess that's what I'll do with two closely spaced tees with circulator and mixing valve...thanks Paul s
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 9:40 AM
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    i get you wonder will it work ...

    well, the things that i cannot see i systematically do my best to determine , and make the best decision based upon as much information i can glean ...
    at the moment the lenght of pipe and type is a ?
    so is flow ?
    the quality of whatever the system is pumping ....?

    what i know .....the room is 144 sg feet .... its a monoflow ...it has heat loss...it no mojo...
  • Rich Rich @ 9:35 AM
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    Guys

    Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong .
    Will a radiant zone not turn off when the thermostat has been satisfied ?  Does not surface temp of the floor determine when thermostat is satisfied ? Yes floor surface temp will vary depending on conditions . But under all those conditions the T Stat will satisfy .  The finish floor and tile will only absorb and experience the heat required to satisfy zone , it does not matter what temp is running through the tubing because we are only dealing with one zone that is independent of rest of system  .  I zone aggressively and only zone rooms on the same zone that have similar finish floor R values , have similar use patterns , and have similar BTU per ft requirements .  After years of doing this I have yet to see a floor , no matter what material it was overheat or be damaged . I regularly put hotter water than a particular loop or circuit needs by zoning this way and have had no complaints , in fact have been asked how come it is more responsive than in my house ?  Does anyone see a problem with treating this as an independent zone with a circ (Delta T) , a thermostat and a relay as OP originally was thinking ?
    Remember , when floor surface reaches X thermostat will satisfy , flow will stop and the floor will get no hotter .  Forget the mixing , zoning is less expensive and requires less thought . Control will be just fine with the Delta T circ and a Taco hydraulic separator .  Of course you will need to figure the approximate true length of this circuit and determine the head loss to size this pump but I believe this will be done within what your contractor/ heating specialist is willing to pay for you to correct his mistake . Let this zone operate independent of everything else in the system . The short amount of time that this zone calls should not overheat the other rooms to an uncomfortable level . Good luck
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 16, 2013 9:45 AM.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 10:26 AM
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    the third of of three mono flow systems i helped Up grade"

    in part ,this year had what i think you were hearing spoken to, it is not satisfactory i mentioned that is what is over riding the heating system with the rad panels buh got the well ,
    just make the part work that you install ...lol..
    buh bythe way this doesnt do this and that doesn't do something else and i went and found why that was the case ...
    the other , i added a new boiler repaired all sorts of pipe ,leaks etc code difugalties , and some previous control problems ...

    the other i have basically revamed 90 percent of it and added a booked headder and radiant floor with takeoff with an i serries R with outdoor reset had my tubing and finished product tested and inspected that has an additional bby pass built in after it as well to pick up an additional mono flow main temp as the third step from the original mono flow 's bypass over the heating emitters .or its "Book". to me monoflow bypasses are some what like having a way to get back on the same page.

    i have seen dumb mixes drive pex tubing however there are a variety of ways to produce Heat ...and a whole lot of ways to get a grip on the comfort side and control side . i tend to do what i work on by determining what the established flow is that i have
    and what it is i have to deal with to then narrow down what is what...
    the bounce you describe you build in might not in all cases prove satisfactory does any of that make it in your book ? it probably is not something that you can see from your house i understand that , sorry , for making that distinction in what i am hearing
    you say ...dumb mixers work well in garages where the "Occupants " are cars and trucks that dont care what floor covering or what the temp happens to be at any given moment ... for the most part.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:31 AM
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    Hmmm

    I think there will be unintended consequences to the rest of the system.

    I think 80 Lin. Ft. Of 1/2" pex for 144 sf 9000k heat loss realizing there is cabinets shower bath tub taking floor area is under radiated.


    Question is Paul do you want to be the hero to get a radiant floor working that will under perform anyway. With possibly ... Likely upsetting balance to the rest of the system? Which may rear its head only in certain scenarios.

    If anything run your supply/return back to the boiler for the radiant with a mixing valve, and add a rad to the bath where it was tied in before....it's going to need it with that heat loss.


    Is the floor insulated?


    Rich doing as you say with a floor that does not meet the load don't you think it's going to run for long periods over heating other rooms? This radiant loop is near the end of the run.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 10:45 AM
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    Gordy ,

    this is a trick question
    ever hear someone tell you what they did ,steer by that information , only to find out later they lied? : )) well,
    all i am trying to get straight is what it actually is that he has to work with FIRST.
    if its "A boiler ...well thats great lol...
    This post was edited by an admin on November 16, 2013 10:54 AM.
  • Paul Pollets Paul Pollets @ 2:26 PM
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    Supplemental Heat

    This bathroom will require supplemental heating. The pex can do some floor conditioning, but it will never be warm enough with 80' pex. Not even close. Add a towel bar, wall panel or toe-kick convector. I wonder if plates were used?
  • Zman Zman @ 9:58 AM
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    Fly wheel

    Rich,
    I have lived with the setup you describe. The problem I have seen is that you are constantly over/under shooting your thermostat.you also end up with hot and cold spots.
    I prefer outdoor reset. I think fixed temp mixing is usually satisfactory.
    I would never do a high temp radiant.
    Slowly raising and lowering the slab temp is so comfortable.
    Carl
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 10:28 AM
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    Zman

    i type slow ..
    and the fly wheel effect or bounce is indeed a hefty consideration ...
  • Zman Zman @ 10:55 AM
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    Heat loss

    Gordy,
    The heat loss is obviously flawed. No matter how you look at this the system will not produce 9000. You just can't get that much energy out of 80 feet of 1/2" tubing. Although this setup is a bit of a compromise, it may be the best option.

    The real question is, why does Paul keep ending up as the " cleanup man" how can he get his foot in the door earlier and get it done right the first time. Maybe marketing to a more high end client would help.
    Carl
  • SWEI SWEI @ 11:00 AM
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    Cleanup Man

    Great description -- I've been wondering the same thing for awhile now.  More importantly, why clean them up improperly when you know better?  It just tarnishes the reputation you've worked years to build.

    The hardest lesson I had to learn was when (and how) to say "no" when the job (or the customer's expectations) were not not a good fit for me.  My income nearly doubled the next year.
  • Paul S Paul S @ 11:23 AM
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    clean up man

    cleaning up to the best of my ability is probably 30 percent of my work.... I have to do something to get this heat running even with just the 80 feet buried in concrete... this knucklehead contractor it gives me a lot of work.... there will be a lot of writing on the invoice to CYA....thanks guys Paul S
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:43 AM
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    Learning is

    what this is all about .
    Paul , Gordy 's suggestion of the additional rad was not all bad...Zman and Swei's input is invaluable , these are the circulators you would benefit from having in your life ...
  • icesailor icesailor @ 6:56 PM
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    Fixing the mistakes of others:

    Its my experience that if they had called me (you) in the first place and it had been done properly, it wouldn't need someone with your expertise. I have NEVER met a Contractor who EVER made a mistake in his life. Well, that's not quite true. There's the time he might tell you about the time he thought he was wrong and then he came to find out he was right.
    If you put a fingernail, like your little pinky, on it, ownership of the mess will be transferred to you. If and when you are unable to do a cheap fix to get the contractor out of a mess of his own doing, you inherit the . When discussing it with the next "Pro" he gets to look at it, he will fail to mention that HE screwed it up but that you were the one who last worked on it and couldn't fix it.
    In every circumstance I have ever tried to repair that is as bad as you describe, without a complete start over, it won't ever be acceptable. And you haven't found the worst of it yet.
    Just my experience and thoughts, For whatever they are worth.
    The stories we can tell.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:36 PM
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    Flawed heat loss

    If the heat loss is flawed then see what it is no? Who shelled out 9k?

    Should this not be the first step to see if what Paul wants to do is in vein to begin with?

    Right now Paul is asking for a band aid, and everyone is offering one. The thing is the cut might run clear up his shirt sleeve, and we can only see the wound on his hand so what size band aid?

    I'm like Weez to many unknown variables gotta see the whole hand.

    9k heat loss is not impossible with a three sided room 3 large windows over a crawl space......depends again more unknowns.


    Paul if 30% of your work is cleanup is this what you really want to do? These guys are going to keep doing sub par systems so long as someone is there to fix them. You need to reverse that role!
    This post was edited by an admin on November 16, 2013 12:37 PM.
  • Rich Rich @ 9:55 AM
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    Clarification

    After reading Paul's comments several times I came to the conclusion that the budget was certainly capped and he was going to attempt a band aid repair . In an attempt to offer a solution that would keep him within an unrealistic budget I made my suggestion . I know full well the consequences and I believe that Paul does also and would inform the parties of how this fix would influence the rest of the system .
      I would figure out what the actual heat loss is , attempt to come up with a proper design and configuration and offer to do that . Upon their decision to not spend the required monies I would walk away as the other companies have done . Gentlemen , I give one price for jobs dealing with a certain scope of work , that price is a guaranteed maximum price for the best system for a particular building based on information given me by the end user , that price may be too much (often is times they had unreasonable expectations ) then we can explore lesser systems but still better than 90% of the garbage others are installing , afterwards if the price is still Too high I bid them farewell .  Many times I hear from these same folks after a heating season or 2  and much frustration later . At that point in time after they were told how the system they were allowing to be installed would operate there are no more questions or doubt about your knowledge .  This is a help site for all , even other professionals , I offered help along the lines that I believe Paul will go anyway .  If Paul wants an ethics or business class he should look elsewhere and not to us .
    Paul , if this builder or others regularly do this to you or expect you to fix others or their screw ups , get rid of em . They will return , they always do , been there done that .  If this is in fact 30% of your work base you need to replace that work with other work . Hell I turn down work in Northern NJ all the time because of lack of resources (qualified labor) . I'd bet I could get that work and you could do it . That would probably replace the frustrating portion of what you do .  
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 17, 2013 9:57 AM.
  • RobG RobG @ 2:02 PM
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    Insulation?

    With 80' of pex and no under-slab insulation your fighting a losing battle. Without supplemental heat you WILL lose.
    Rob
  • Paul S Paul S @ 2:33 PM
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    just

    Just got back from customers home....I explained everything to her....she is willing to pay a little extra to get it done right....radiant will be done with its own zone off the boiler...I want to use a delta T circulator....now off monoflo system I want to add something like a towel rack radiator....now controlling the radiant...do I use regular thermostat?...how would you guys control this?....and any more ideas , ? Thanks Paul S
  • SWEI SWEI @ 2:47 PM
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    Radiant bathroom control

    Bumble Bee is too big (008 equivalent curve) and Taco does not offer the VDT in sizes smaller than an 007 (also too big.)

    I would use a 1/2" Taco iSeries-R valve followed by one of the itsy bitsy ecocirc vario pumps.  No need for a stat unless you want a high limit -- just tweak the reset ratio and pump speed until you get a comfortable bathroom and forget about it.

    Towel warmers work best on the higher temp loop.  No need for controls there other than the manual valve they come with.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 17, 2013 2:47 PM.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 7:10 PM
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    Horse waste:

    Paul, maybe you'll understand this analogy.

    You can NOT put two bushels of horse stall waste into a one bushel basket.

    You have three bushels of waste, you will need six to fix it, and they only want to give you one bushel.
    Don't sell yourself short. If you are good and worth it but work cheap, the Bozo's will find you like rotting flesh and all they'll give you is the bones after the buzzards have picked them.
    A very good friend/competitor once shared with me about his customers in general.
    "If you dropped dead in front of them in the middle of a job, they'd step over your body to get to the phone to find someone else. Once they finally found someone, they'd come back to check to see if you are alive and maybe call 911."
    He's right.
  • Rich Rich @ 3:42 PM
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    Bumble Bee

    set up as Constant T  has a curve similar to 003 when operating at 9 watts and like the 008 when operating at it's peak 42 watts . The 2 curves between those are not really comparable with any other 00 family circulator .  Have no idea what you'll need in the way of flow / head for this , just pointing out differing HEC-2 curves .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 17, 2013 3:45 PM.
  • Paul S Paul S @ 5:21 PM
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    bumblebee

    Ok...so there is no way of knowing length of loop and etc....if i use a TACO bumblebee circulator..set up constant setpoint temp....how would i get that temp?....i will be supplying and returning the radiant back to boiler...does this pump just get a constant power supply source with no means of control?and if i use a i series mixing valve 3 way 1/2 inch with a small vari ecocirc.....i would just setup outdoor reset curve thanks Paul S
    This post was edited by an admin on November 17, 2013 5:26 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:50 PM
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    Like SWEI

    Suggested.

    Glad to see the owner allowing you to try and get it right Paul.

    Hopefully a nice towel warmer won't be a problem piping into the original rad piping that was there before.

    I think with a floor that can perform warming comfort, and a rad to supplement will turn a mess into elegance. Hope it all works out, just make sure the rad is big enough for what ever the actual heat loss calcs at.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 6:58 PM
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    Bottom of the curve

    is a bad way to operate pumps.  Their hydraulic efficiency suffers as the RPMs drop, and whatever control algorithm they use has little authority.  I really, really, really hope Taco offers the 'Bee with more of their pump ends.  I'd love to see a larger version (somewhere between a 0010 and 0014) and a little one (similar to a 006) which could modulate down even below the 003 range.
  • Paul S Paul S @ 9:23 PM
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    i need you

    Guys to clarify a few things...i used bumble bee a few times for setpoint on injection pumping, only a few times not too familiar with the different features, i have the manual for both just explains installation methods with some sort of control, but if im not using a way to control this via thermostat. What is the sequence of operation....i failed to let you guys know that the boiler is a GE downfire (oil)....if i just use a ISERIES with a regular pump , just the bumblebee circulator, or both of them together(bumblebee & ISERIES). what im failing to grasp is without a tstat what is preventing the room from overheating?if thanks Paul S
    This post was edited by an admin on November 17, 2013 9:26 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:05 PM
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    Rest of the house

    Is the rest of the home controlled by a central thermostat?
  • Paul S Paul S @ 10:17 PM
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    yes

    Yes, the rest of the home is contolled by 2 tstats.....one for monoflo radiator system and one for a extension of the home that has baseboard heat....thanks Paul S
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:23 AM
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    Soooo

    Towel tad,for bath will be on mono flow stat. And are you making the RF a zone on its own,or slaving it with the mon flow stat.

    part of me thinks let the reset curve on the I series handle the floor. May be some dialing in. But thinking if it is the only zone that calls boiler will short cycle. So part of me says slave to the mono flow zone, and maybe suffer some floor warming in the shoulder season.
  • Paul S Paul S @ 7:35 AM
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    so

    So if I let the monoflo call on its own to turn boiler on....and I let Iseries operate on its reset curve...do I power the rf pump when the monoflo pump comes on? Thanks Paul s
    This post was edited by an admin on November 18, 2013 7:37 AM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 9:07 AM
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    Floor pump

    should run continuously until WWSD kicks in.

    iSeries-R will handle the floor automagically once it is set properly.

    In the event there are overheating issues (typically from solar gain, or a huge soaker tub) you can add a stat, but set it around 4ºF higher than the desired space temp and leave it there.  If the occupants try to manage the space temp using the stat, there will be under- and overshoot issues.  We find an industrial temp controller and a remote thermistor provide less opportunity for disappointment.
  • Rich Rich @ 8:22 AM
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    Always

    make an effort to design system so the system curve runs through center 1/3 of pump curve . Paul for the Bee that would be in a range 3 gpm @ 2.5' HD and 7 gpm @ 8 ' HD , that system curve takes you dead through the sweet spot in variable speed or constant T mode . Swei would be correct about operating at the bottom of the curve . Your wire to water efficiency would also suck .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Paul S Paul S @ 8:45 AM
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    so

    do i will be setting the bumble bee to the set point mode? thanks paul s
  • Paul S Paul S @ 9:37 AM
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    wwsd

    I know iseeies has warm weather shut down....but how would you shut down pump during wwsd thanks for everything guys Paul s
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:19 AM
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    Maybe I'm missing SWEI

    Something but if the RF loop is its own zone what are short cycling odds of the boiler for such a small loop?

    I was thinking if the RF loop is slaved with the mono flow loop at least the boiler may not short cycle.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 11:42 AM
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    Good point

    I've grown used to properly sized mod/cons.  Not sure whether the bathroom even needs to call for heat -- that would depend on the other rooms' emitter sizing and more.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:50 AM
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    Other rooms emitter sizing

    Right if they are oversized bath would suffer. If under sized bath would overheat.

    Thought I read it was a GE boiler probably oversized to begin with.
  • Paul S Paul S @ 1:44 PM
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    so

    So what would you guys do here?....should I slave it of monoflo...or I can probably run a thermostat in bathroom...will be using 2 way iseries with taco bumble bee...thanks Paul s
  • SWEI SWEI @ 1:58 PM
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    Why a 2-way?

    3-way would be my choice.

    A 4-way *might* allow the zone to keep mixing down from residual heat even after the boiler stops firing, but that would depend on the system hydraulics.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 3:36 PM
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    ecm motors ,,no dirt separator and monoflow systems....101

    you and i and everyone else are in a part of the universe where we are under certain laws.
    God does not temporarily suspend those laws .
    If it is true for me then its true for you .
    there is a lot i do not know ,as a matter of fact , i am surprised every day with something new i did not know . lol...
    what is the size of a circulator that will heat a concrete block wall bedroom 10 X 9 with 6 feet of base board,200 F water heated water available, in 60 below zero ,with no insulation and massive infiltration around the warped door and iced up windows?
    can i do this ? will it work?
    It has a 2 meg boiler and the entire building is either monoflow or individual zones ...
    with info like that it is not to easy to comprehend anything other than sawzall surgery on the entirety at least you still have a chance to install a heating system that will function properly , however , i am inclined to think that if you are going to change out the circ problem above for a larger circ you are going to be woefully disappointed .

    .....................
    you have choices and decisions to make , just not the ones you seem to be making .
    what if the couplings in the slab have leaks , are you aware of Where they are? are they reducing 90's or straight couplings? for an example...

    ....................

    Magnetism is something that has always interested me , i have studied it for years , decades , may go century one day ...
    the magnetic Caleffi dirt separator is not just some spendy gadget that looky intriguing it actually preforms a very real function or more ...
    a mouse on a string with line demarcating footage also has value the tool made from 1/8 " hydraulic hose can preform about the same function .
    it aids you in determining what it is you are actually working with .
    if the 80 feet turns out to be 80 cm you will fully comprehend you were given wrong information. I suggest that you have a need to know despite everything else you were told.
    ......
    ecm motors in monoflow systems have some minor technicalities ...as you may have guessed it has to do with oxidation and iron. Iron is a magnetic substance.
    ......

    Ah buh the Wilo Grunfoss and bumble bee are not like the typical wetrotor ...
    here is where i'd like to call upon someone who sees this in a very real way the professionals who see wet rotor cirs installed below the boiler . any of them are more than welcome to help me clarify that , so do not dismiss anything of what they say.

    ......

    Here is a thought for you ....where is or are the strainers in the system ? have you opened even one of them ?

    ,...

    ok. did you manage to get anything out of anything i have said ?

    if i give you all the answers it is nt much of a class . If you look for pictures there aint any . however , if you look into the back of the idronics recent trade magazine , hunt for a treasure posted by Hot Rod of a glass teaching aid ,or one from Mark Eathertons glass piping teaching aid or the little red school house aid here on the site you may get a bit of a sudden insight as to how some of these things work and what they do.

    .....

    i am going to say that there is plenty i do not know however you tell me the condition of that strainer and i will give everyone here some free scoop on these ecm motors circulators before they are replacing them and blaming the manufacturers .... these minor technicalities, even though out of sight, will make even the best and brightest go Hmmm... if not in mind ,
    when doing their work properly.

    ..i hope you walk away with the thought that this is the best job you have ever had ,to date .
    and i trust it will be.

    banging an ECM on a boiler is not going to change physics . the laws are the same for everyone.
    i am not making this stuff up : )))

    Weezbo.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 9:22 AM
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    A- Freaking- Men

    Again,
    A-Freaking-Men.

    Or as I once heard someone say:
    "That might work for you. I've never seen it work for anyone else before but it might work for you."
    Then, there's what an old retired Navy Fleet Admiral I had as a customer a few years back. He defined for me the complete "The Laws of Unintended Consequences".  That "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished".

    OUCH.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 19, 2013 9:26 AM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 2:39 PM
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    3 way

    Two way does not allow you to mix down supply temps for radiant loop.
  • Paul S Paul S @ 3:52 PM
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    weezbo

    There are no strainers on this system....so you are suggestion to use the caleffi hydro seperator....without a ecm pump Paul s...and yes I will be using a 3 way iseries
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 4:03 PM
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    well ..

    not exactly . because if we do something for the monoflow system and for your new "Cure" You want to make everything you touch say Hmmm... that is so simple and straight this cant be the guy who rolled in the boiler or the rest of this system .
    we are looking for something that is like a Signature on your work .
    if you have no dirt separator and not even one strainer neither circ or radiant panel selection will work as advertised some place in the future.
    i will hang with you a while ...
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 4:11 PM
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    the circ needs to be protected ,

    so there are some tricks to that ,
    olden golden day boiler makers used Fat pipe ahead of the return with a riser and a clean out sometimes ,
    while not a True dirt separator it preforms reasonably well , does the system have something like that ?
    it is not a magnetic dirt separator however iron has a chance to fall out of suspension into the fat pipe , much as colder waters are acting like a fluid and will roll down off a table , gold miners used this particular method to get gold out of suspension .
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 4:27 PM
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    more exactly , is

    ecm motors in my opinion require magnetic particle removal.

    i am all about you getting this done with as few "Surprises" as possible in the future.

    because of that and your interest and enthusiasm to help and keep at it , let me say the impeller iron and magnetism of suspended particles do not mix well. a friend installed a very spendy circ on a monoflow and it ate its lunch .
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 3:54 PM
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    Gordy

    there is a way to use a two way as a "Bridge "
    similar to an Injection bridge.
    it may not be what P ,aul has in mind or what your minds eye sees ,
    *~//: )
  • Paul S Paul S @ 4:18 PM
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    weezbo

    i was going to use a 2way iseries piped before a bypass with the bumble bee in front of bypass...paul s
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 4:51 PM
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    Well

    Yahmon :)
    see , the flow rates in a monoflow determine the size of circ at the boiler for the entire system , that means When it is designed if it need 32 gmp thats what it needs and that s that.
    now there are ways to deal with adding other things , however , thats where you have to think straight and base your thinking on known s rather than guesses .
    H or what i call "i form" as in capital printed i ( I with a horizontal top and bottom) is "Basic H" , in hydronics and in Karate.

    the H describes some communication from or to two pipes , stacK some (2) H's on a page and you now have two bridges a supply and a return between two pipes .

    monoflow is all about that .

    turn the two H's that you have stacked one above the other on its side and erase the first "Leg of the top H and the Last leg of the top H that is what monoflow pipe looks like ... draw in two more smaller top pieces of the last drawing ...that is what i call a Book....it allows the water or fluid to go thru the first take off if that take off is closed by a zone valve , it allows the criculation to continue thru the book and back into the monoflow main .

    with very little disruption to flow or the circulator even seeing it and , it allows the temps to be more comfortable in the room.

    and no real discernable temp changes in that room . control becomes a breeze as it were ,

    how we doing so far?

    see the Heat source is now right there at the venturi not 80 feet there and back to the monoflow loop . i distinguish a by pass from a book in these things as well....

    what it allows also is control of temps of the loop itself , maybe you reduce the temps and save every penny that they spent having YOU do the work or , They see a return on their investment that Paid for you to do the work .... you have constant circulation through these books ,so that helps in stepping down temps to other emitters , that has Got to make you feel better about yourself . knowing you are doing something that helps them ...how could that not help you ?
    This post was edited by an admin on November 18, 2013 5:10 PM.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 5:50 PM
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    i see the two emitters as take offs ,

    they are not all one thing to me . both have certain requirements .
    it is easy to envision both of these on the same "Loop" off separate books , one using a trv at the emitter the other using a bridge with a two way into a constant circ system for radiant floor ,
    the emitter has a control nob or wall mounted cap tube to a thermostat and the floor side controlled by the i series , it is easy to see however maybe ...we need to speak to step down transformes for a moment.
    there are buck and boost transformers from a given voltage one bucks it the other boosts it .
    if i have some number say 120 v i can reduce it to 24 V or boost it , with adda ronk i could even do some fancy phase change leg ...
    well , hydronics is like that too.

    .... not only can we use the 120 for most appliances we can boost it or buck it down , we can make nearboiler piping take offs field side and communicate all this by water.

    ......
    how are we doing so Far?
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 3:25 PM
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    i will see if i can get a picture ,

    because ,
    the monoflow has flow rates , so you want to make the take off from a book off the same monoflow takeoff as the new rad panel , i think i use a check sometimes also ,
    and a book around the take off so you end up with a few ts , 90's valves checks , with what might look like a it of a ladder , i suggest a paco gauge or three as well , this helps visually when "Reading" the system .
    i see the dirt separator , first off past the supply side with a t and bypass and fatter pipe decending and rising from the discal , and reconnecting to the crossover from the first T,
    continuing to the rad ...on the way put in a Book it needs venturi inserts in 3/4T's , what that does is allow the water to roll when the rad is working or not , now it gets different the rad has a trv that lashes it up to the other open ends of the t's that are open , that right there is so that the system circ flows thru the main monoflow take off thru the ball valve crossing over the dirt separator on to the emitters ,
    the next book is so that , beyond the rad you can put in the injection loop or what have you to the floor , the resistance is nominal as it were , the circ on the main monoflow will keep flow and heat there , it is like building rungs of a ladder ...it keeps moving the flow further along each rung of the ladder provides easy steps for the water to be when things open and close and also can allow a take off that is its own stand alone "System" depending upon temp , restrictions and flow lengths .
    for an example you can step the new sysem , so that the return temp to the book is cold , in a case like that you can continue the monoflow loop past or extend it to a couple more take offs with a simple bypass and two more ball valves to aid in purging etc or adding maybe some more heat emitters ,toe kick or whatever that will help in mixing UP the return from a cold return ..
    i know that sounds easy ... buh it is not in everyones "Play Book" .
    try to think of monoflow as gears , that needs clutches to create or continue flow ...
    one 3/4 loop can have many more "Loops" coming off of it , its about flow and temp and restrictions every restriction the loop sees the main sees therefore the pump sees , so you have to make it not labour by keeping what you do continuously geared and clutched so the heat makes it to where you are wanting to meet the heat loss or whatever you are about , the returns placement then is an issue insofar as what you want the return temp to be ,that the boiler sees ...so far , without getting too elaborate , once the water you are returning gets to the monoflow main it is already mixing back UP in a barrel in comparison from whence it came. the reason it is like that is the flow in the main has circulation of the supply water temp .basically .
    you do not necessarily need to do modifications to the main loop. the heat and flow is at the take-offs for the emitter and always there when it is calling or not.
    the inserts keep the "Magic" happening...
    it is like a system bypass , or setpoint bypass in the field off two or three run outs .
    check valves offer a bit more restriction and change the complexion of the face the main sees or the emitter .
    i only wish we were having some real idea because maybe you could use the system pump and use a actuating monoflow valve and once again it depends on a number of minor technicalities ,one being how you pipe it .
    does the boiler have a teckmar ,johnson ,honeywell , Taco , there too are a bunch of minor technicalities, pump exercising features ,for an example ,
    it is about information to actualize in this , negative world, something positive.
    i will see if i can get a pic of some sort ...
    i have to run ...30 below and colder coming this evening ...
  • Rich Rich @ 5:51 PM
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    Good eye

    Weez . ECMs really do have issues with nasties that can be attracted to them and foul them up in a hurry .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Paul S Paul S @ 5:57 PM
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    good, good

    So hydroseperator....with 2 way iseries and bumble bee....Paul s
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 6:07 PM
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    That is the question ...

    now where do we want to do this ...after the take off valves i mentioned in my first post ?

    .............

    You know back then when i was asking for some more information ?


    or now when i know you distinctly said there was no y strainer?because honestly , there is a trick to using smaller strainers ...you have something of a minor technicality on your hands .
    .............................
    the trick is not obvious by any stretch because it involves cool waters turbulent flow and laminar flow and constant circulation .

    ............. Caleffi speaks to the laminar and the turbulent ...however going bak to the basic H again you can use the turbulent flow to help shake out the particals into laminar in what resembles an eddy current.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 18, 2013 6:14 PM.
  • Paul S Paul S @ 6:11 PM
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    correct if I'm wrong

    I believe the smallest calleffi hydro seperator its one inch?There is no y strainer any where on this system...thanks Paul s
  • Paul S Paul S @ 6:19 PM
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    why

    Not straight from boiler its own independent zone like we spoke about before....and the boiler side pump how would you control that? Slave off monoflo? And keep bumble bee running continuously? And what control would shut bumble bee off during wwsd? Thanks Paul s
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 10:18 PM
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    one thing

    hydraulic separation comes in numerous forms .

    The discal likes to see coolest water descending with laminar flow ,

    the circulation of water temps unless it hits a radiant cooling level does not immediately require humidity control. it is for that reason the actual loop length is of significance.

    ............
    one of the things i have been using the vdt tacos (before the bumble bee) and concurrent with ...is for some btu exchange from high solar gain to cooler areas within the building.
    .....................

    you have to give me accurate information for to me aid you .

    for all i know the stuff you were told is not true it might be ...in other words you are the guy doing the work , you are on site , you can determine if you have two 5 foot pieces of 3/4 " pex slammed into two reducing 90's,slammed into the floor and X amount of 1/2 " you have to be the eyes and ears on that , i am thousands of miles away...i a more inclined to go with your actual observations and your word on this if you have two 3/4" pex lines with 8 " of 1/2" and are going with 1/2' BEING 80 FEET there is something you ought to know , i cannot suspend the laws of physics .. i cant even do that with all my fancy tools ...

    what if you found out that it was over 100 feet long ?
    180? well, that would be really invaluable information for you and everyone else who are taking the time to make this your minor miracle.

    controlling by temp is different than temp control.
    just as zoning by circulators is different than zoning by valves .

    i know you are keen on the bumble bee i get that , if you told me ok we have decided to use a 4 meg boiler in the house ummm what Can i say? oh yeah its a great idea?
    that wont happen . especially if the heat loss at 1000btus a sq ft would be met in the first meg.
    ................
    i know what i say is not always easy to decipher buh ,.. the stand alone zone for the floor warming control can have different controls as well. when you are using a circ that does not dead head. i have to deal with some minor technicalities very soon today .
    ....
    your take offs from the main monoflow 3/4" are going to do a few thing s
    1. make the emitter rad panel its own controllable, functioning, stand alone entity .
    2.be come a bridge for the 2 way mixing valve
    3. hydraulically separate the floor system from the monoflow ...
    4 allow the monoflow to do its thing .
    5 ...with the trv/ and floor to do the most that they can do .
    getting rid of iron is a little bit like pumping away thats why i put a dead leg under the expansion tank on the cold water feed to the boiler.that way stuff falls out before it gets in at the coldest part it can fall out...

    i am saying this correctly .
    i want to say that the discal belongs at the return of the boiler ...however , right now i am thinking where it would do the most good for a new panel rad and the floor system .and when i think of that , i see it going from athe suppy side ball valve by long sweep 90 into a larger pipe tha then goes horizontal to a reducing T withe discal off the drop piped back into the t facing over the discal tied back into another T looking up to the rad and take off for the floor ....
    that allows flow all the time even if no one bothers to open and clean it ....the particles either fall out into that and slower flow moves thru it and hotter faster flow moves across the top back to the T looking up,...
    for all i know there is one made now for vertical piping arrangements .it might not doo as much as one would like for the boiler however it would definitely clean up the fluids to the rad and the floor.
    i need to dash for a few ..
    think about it you have time.
    maybe Check the Solar section out and see if HR stops in .
    he knows all about the newest parts in the Caleffi line.
    he thinks things thru based on accurate information so you may want to find out what size pipe you have going into the return .
    or better yet have a pic .. i used to make j pegs and put them on the desk top and shift them as a file onto the bass end of the reply.
    wow i came home to find my last post never posted ...maybe it was destiny,...lol
    i am home again ...
  • Gordy Gordy @ 8:28 PM
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    Pics

    Some pics man of the near boiler piping. Help us out dude. This is like trying to draw with out pencil, and paper.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 12:37 AM
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    Thank you Gordy ,

    did you have a chance to read idronics 13 ? on page82- 83 it shows the SEP4 . this has thhe magnetic cup outside of the lower discal portion of the hydraulic separator .
    i would not mind buying the cup if it would fit my 3/4" discal .
    for my purge pump.
    it is not that i hhave seen one for the discal , i just had the thought that there is so much that is going on these days i probably missed the boat as they already exist for the LLH combo unit.
    Weezbo.
    i think the one picture of the risers helps a lot , the near boiler piping would be a definite plus .
    and Paul ,
    i think , i am so far aware of the two three quarter rise and return from the monoflow loop....my thought is that were they valved off that would be a good place to start . ....
    whatever the flow rate is on the main circ was likely right if it has worked correctly all this time . the new parts and pieces selected they may of may not be the best pieces for your job..Thats where you seem to pick up on oh ok , a rad panel then just might be the ticket ..., lets just bang in a rad panel done deal then . oh waita min they are keen on some floor warming .. well we can lash up a mix set it at 100 run it off a relay with a thermostat bang done deal.
    ok well , there is Bounce to consider boing its cold boing its hot . ok so a mixing valve with reset ,.. , thats the ticket ,... that will cushion the bounce , take off and landings will smooth out ...
    every in put you have gotten had some rhyme or reason behind whats what with that ....
    this ...
    and the other ...
    these are the minor technicalities , each one eliminates another set of surprises down the road ...
    remember ,
    " Them That works their Very Best,
    Go down the road like all the rest."
    well remember when doing this stuff was easy?
    : ))
    me neither.
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