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    Hot water baseboard heating (527 Posts)

  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 5:18 PM
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    Hot water baseboard heating

    we just converted from oil with a Burnham burner, 14 years old, to gas with a high efficiency Alpine burner, and we have baseboard heat.  The oil heat was quick, heating the house 5 to 10 degrees in about 15 minutes.  the gas heat with the Alpine is so slow, heating the house about 1 degree every 20 to 30 minutes.  is this normal? the company who installed it said it is, and that if we want it to be more efficient, we cannot turn the heat down.  this sounds crazy, and we do not want the heat so high while we sleep, and prefer to turn it down, but it is so slow to heat the house, and so it is cold in the morning for hours.  can someone elaborate or help with this?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:37 PM
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    You're using setback which is counter-productive to the design and logic of a mod/con. Your boiler is trying to maintain as low a water temp with as low a fire for as long a time as is necessary. This not only produces the most efficiency, but also the most comfort. Setback does just the opposite.

    There is a "boost" feature in the control which can be adjusted, but again, this is actually working against what the boiler is trying to accomplish. It's the manufacturer's compromise for people who won't give up setback.

    The best thing you can do is set you thermostat at one temp and leave it there. If you want setback because it's more comfortable for sleeping, then I wouldn't use more than 4*. If the boiler then still has trouble recovering, the boost feature needs adjusting to match your life style.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:04 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    thank you for the reply.  I want to make sure I understand correctly.  Are you saying my boiler is working properly and the way it is supposed to then?  What exactly is set back?  This is a new term to me.  Will this actually be saving us money if we always have to leave the thermostat at a certain temperature?  if we set the thermostat back more than 4 degrees, it sounds like we should expect a longer time for the heat to rise then on this type of boiler?  I also should have mentioned that we also got a new hot water tank at the same time, and the hot water goes out after filling a bath tub only 3/4 of the way.  we already had the company come and adjust the hot water temperature.  Is this normal for the Alpine condensing high efficiency gas fired hot water boiler and superstor ultra indirect fired water heater?
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:48 PM
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    Potentially many problems...

    As with any question on hydronics, there is only one correct answer, and that is "It depends…" But that's probably not what you wanted to hear. Without having an actual eye on your old and new systems, here are my observations, bad as they are.

    1. If the system was properly sized, based on an actual heat loss calculation, the boiler sizes should be fairly consistent in BTUH capacity.

    2. If your home is actually cooling down that many degrees F over night, you need to hire someone to come into your home and do a blower door test, identifying those air leaks/insulation needs and get them fixed ASAP.

    3. If the old oil boiler was also doing your DHW through a tankless coil, it was ALWAYS sitting there, hot and ready. Such is not the case with your new Alpine boiler.

    4. If the new boiler is using a good outdoor reset control (most do) your old system may not have been, which means when it got a call for heat, it ran up to its high limits (typically 180 degrees F). The new boiler bases its operating temperature on the outside air temperature, and will not hit high discharge temperatures until it gets REAL cold outside.

    5. If your system piping is conducive, it might be a good idea to isolate the sleeping rooms from the other rooms, give it its own thermostat, and keep that zone turned down.

    The shortage of DHW could be many things and will need to be determined by your installing contractor. It could be that your shower head or bath tub is exceeding the capacity of the storage tank/boiler combination. Although not acceptable, it could very well be normal. Consider changing out to a low flow shower head, or avoid showering with more than one person/machine using hot water at a given time. Not being familiar with the controls for that particular boiler, I can't say, but generally speaking, if the boiler is doing DHW, when it has a simultaneous call for heat and DHW, it is supposed to prioritize all output to the DHW for a certain period of time, typically 30 to 60 minutes. May be something as simple as adjusting that control.

    It may just take some getting use to on your part. This is not your grandpas oil burning boiler any more.

    Oh, and make DARNED sure your installer comes back to service the boiler at least in the first year, and then based on their observations, you may be able to stretch to once every two years, but you MUST maintain this new appliance, or it will go away… Like a red headed step child with freckles, a bad attitude and bad breath :-)

    As for conserving energy, if the boiler is doing an outdoor reset control, then there is no need to turn your thermostat down. The conservation is being done at the point of generation, instead of the point of use. But as I said, if your home DOES cool down real quick, you need to address those issues separately.

    The recovery rate sounds normal for a system being deeply set back in operating temperatures at night with an outdoor reset control controlling the boiler. In fact, if you had an A.I.R. programmable thermostat (Active Intelligent Recovery), it might turn down your house at 10 PM, but will start heating it up again at midnight due to the slow recovery capacity of the boiler and the outdoor reset program. The problem is, the thermostat and the boiler don't speak the same language… The thermostat speak ON/OFF and the boiler speaks highly intelligent outdoor reset digital…

    Try keeping the thermostat set for one condition all the time, and if the boiler IS capable of maintaining THAT temperature, then it indicates it is OK. If it doesn't you may have other problems that need to be addressed. Gotta start somewhere...

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 26, 2013 8:53 PM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:59 PM
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    Setback: temporarily setting the temp back on the thermostat. This is accompanied by setting it back up later.

    And yes, it is more economical to leave it at one temp.

    As far as your hot water issue goes, more info would be needed. Normally, a mod/con with an indirect will give you virtually unlimited hot water. It could have been the setting or it could be in how it was piped and what control strategy was used. If the tub allows more than 4-5 gallons per minute flow, that could be the issue too. Time how long it takes to fill a five gallon bucket (hot only). If it's more than 4-5 gpm, slow download your fill rate and the system should keep up.

    If you post some pics of the boiler and its near piping and controls, that may be helpful.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 9:13 PM
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    Good point Bob...

    If the flow for the tub is high (and it typically is), you can expect to run out of hot water. Slow the flow and feel the heat :-)

    I trained my wife to adjust the tub filler to a certain point that takes her 20 minutes to fill the tub, but it is NICE and HOT when she jumps in after the news, and that's with 50K btuH boiler and 80 gallon reverse indirect, Didi I mention that I think she's part lobster? :-)

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:33 PM
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    Mine too, Mark

    My wife does the same before going to bed.

    The thing that helps my system keep up is that I primarily use an outdoor wood boiler with 300 gallons of buffer and a 20 plate h.e. at the tank. That gives me about 6 gpm constant hot water.

    A wife, six daughters and a teenage son can really go through some hot water.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:24 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    hi, here are some pictures of the burner, hot water tank, and pipes.  let me know if you need others. thanks
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:40 PM
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    It Appears...

    To be piped and controlled correctly.

    I can't get the pics to enlarge without getting fuzzy.

    What size (btu) is the Alpine? If it's 105k or above, a larger circ on the indirect may be beneficial. It appears there's a Taco 007 on there now.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:07 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    hi, the Alpine is an 80, not a 105.  any thoughts on this?  we got 3 different quotes before picking a plumber, and all 3 plumbers recommended 3 different size alpines.  let me know what you think.  do you need different pictures?
  • Rich Rich @ 10:09 PM
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    What size

    SuperStor is that ? Also is the pump in fact a 007 for the indirect ? Please tell the model number of Indirect also ,  SSU-45DW , SSU-45 would be an example of needed information
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 26, 2013 10:11 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:11 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    also, not sure if this makes a difference or not, but my bath tub was filling fully and staying warm up until today, and today was much colder and snowy.  our first snow in this house so I can't compare it to the old oil burner
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:18 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    hi, the model number on the hot water tank is ssu-45.  I'm not sure where to locate the pump information..I'm not sure what the pump looks like.  let me know.  I do see something that says Taco, colts 115, hz 60,  ax press 125 psi, max water temp 110 C 230 F.  is this what you were looking for?  thanks
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:09 PM
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    Howdy ,

    May i mention a few things , one is the placement of an antiscald devise ..
    the other is i see a check on the horizontal up there in the ceiling , on your parallel primary
    the superstore you have certainly looks bigger than a 30 gallon ,
    with temps fluxuating all over the place and as fast as that will recover and make hot water ,
    would you actually need a check after the circ is something i am wondering as it could somewhat buffer temps to the radiant and baseboard ... a temp gauge would be handy on the supply and return to and from it just so that you could see if what i am saying is correct with your own eyes.

    before and after replacing the check ... and by adding an anti scald you might also see some change in the availability of hot domestic water...


    that might inturn change the radiant blend of waters is what i am thinking as well.

    a temp gauge on the potable water after the anti scald devise would let you know exactly what the temp was available ... and you could turn on the same tap as you do now and have a record of the time it takes to fill the tub or whatever .

    that way if what i say is not right you can tell me i am wrong. and i will have to accept that and wander the ethereal realm until i am forgiven by the hydronic specters ...

    buh if it turns out that Marks idea about air infiltration and the idi er temp gauges on the supply and return and on the domestic after the anti scald prove true balancing bounce may become an easier proposition in the overall scheme of things.

    Weezbo .
  • Rich Rich @ 10:26 PM
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    Green Vertical

    pump . Should have the model number right on the cover . Number beginning with 00 , possibly 007 , 0010
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 26, 2013 10:34 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:31 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok, the green one is Taco 007-F5.  although model info is upside down.  what do you mean I didn't get what I didn't pay for and it won't be what I want???
  • Rich Rich @ 10:52 PM
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    saying is always there and has been for quite sometime , it is very similar as Mr Eatherton's below his name . 
        OK . The SSU-45 indirect requires 10 GPM at 7.9 ft head as per the manufacturer and the boiler water during DHW production must be 180* . I install HTP almost exclusively .  Your plumber used a check valve in the supply line which is piped to the wrong tapping (supply should be the top) which adds head to overcome with the pump . The 007 will not meet these requirements , the 0010 would have been my choice .  Another thing about indirects is that you are well served if one stores the water in the tank at 140*-160* and mixes that water down to 115*-120* , this practice increases your storage capacity and will most probably give you all the water that you require . Has worked for me and my end users without fail . I use Taco 5000 series DHW mixing valves . This pump must be changed for the properly sized pump .  Below I attached the language about this pump selection directly out of the Alpine Manual .
    58 103448-02 - 6/13
    58 103448-02 - 6/13
    Figure 38: Near Boiler Piping - Heating Plus Indirect Water Heater
    VI. Water Piping and Trim C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)
    It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
    and boiler piping configurations that provide the
    proper flow rates and performance for the boiler
    and indirect water heater.

      As far as the heating goes in the house I agree with all said above . Maybe the outdoor reset is not set at the proper ratio or was not programmed properly by the installer .  Where are you located ?  Also , VERY IMPORTANT , could you tell me the model number on the Black pump ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 26, 2013 11:00 PM.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:33 PM
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    this is almost too funny..

    i type really slow and was making some soup and letting my pinner friend "Mop" the one eye shih tsu in and out quick as a bunny lol..
    anyway,.. we must both have been like somewhat typing the same things at the same time : ))

    *~// :)
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:57 PM
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    hot water base board heating

    ok thanks for the info.  just so I understand, what will the 010 vs the 007 do differently?  the company was supposed to come back today, but what a no show, and said they will be here tomorrow morning instead.  I am in Massachusetts.  I want to be able to fully explain to them what the problem is because they have now come 3 times after the installation for this problem.
  • Rich Rich @ 11:05 PM
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    will flow your required 10 GPM at 9 ft of head where as the 007 will only give you 10 GPM with a head no greater than 7ft . 007 is not enough pump for the job .  It always amazes me also that local plumbers in Mass would not use HTP boilers that are manufactured right in East Freetown , especially since they are using their indirects .  The black pump as far as I can tell is not furnished with the boiler , This pump if sized incorrectly can cause real problems .  This pump as per Burnham should be Taco 0015 on speed #3 .

    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 26, 2013 11:09 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:43 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok, so I need to tell them to swap out the green 007 for the 010.  the black Taco has a number on the front that says  0015-MSF2.  is this accurate?  we were kind of forced to do the Alpine burner because we went through Mass save, and National Grid/Mass save has certain requirements.
  • Rich Rich @ 8:34 AM
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    0015 MSF 2

    is sufficient for the boiler pump .  For domestic hot water ,0010 shows that it should perform by the pump curves from Taco , a 0015 MFS 2 would also be a good choice for the DHW , possibly a better choice in all actuality .
      I do not understand many of these programs  Why would a Mass program ignore a locally manufactured product that is equivalent or better than another product manufactured in another state . I would look to the installing contractor for this mystery .  What is your zip code ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 27, 2013 8:40 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:29 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok thanks, they are coming by this morning, so I will see what they say.  we are in middlesex county.  hopefully this all gets resolved soon
  • Ironman Ironman @ 12:44 PM
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    One Other Thing... Well maybe

    With your piping arrangement, the boiler control should be set to:
    1. Give priority to domestic heating
    2. Turn on the boiler and DHW circ's for domestic heating
    3. Turn off the system circ for DHW.

    Overall, it looks like your installer did nice work. Just some details need adjusting or correcting.

    Regarding sizing: the boiler should have been sized based on a heat loss calculation, not the size of the previous boiler. The old one was most likely well over-sized and over-sizing is a cardinal sin in boiler selection. Bigger is NOT better when it comes to boilers. The only time the full capacity of properly sized boiler is needed is when it's below 10* outside.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 27, 2013 12:54 PM.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 3:00 PM
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    the lack of a anti scald ,

    is politely the one item that should positively be addressed.

    if nothing else is done at all for your health and comfort.

    i am not the only one to mention this .

    temp gauges save ponds and cost pence. right now , when ever some one wants to trouble shoot or diagnose the balancing you are playing guessing games.

    i am also saying that the temps might and more certainly would benefit from some communication of the tank with the system . means that were the tank kept in the 140 F -> 160 and had a temp call from some other appliance or devise , this mass of heated water would find its way into the "Mix" then when it got cooler the DPO would quickly ,with the correct circ, raise that buffer back up .

    the check valve seems to be , to me ,not needed using the tanks stored higher temp.

    the workmanship looks fine . get ahold of the installation guides for the boiler and also the hot water maker. look at the pictures even if the words are gobbly gook to you.

    when you find one with an anti scald devise say that you want one of those and mention future call outs of a tech for maintenance that a few temp gauge would quicken the diagnostic on equipment ,circs, and faulty valves. by the way that time saved can be better spent in minor adjustments at that time.
    hope you avail yourself of this opportunity now, as it will take less time overall to get things working.and mention were they in place they could see with their own eyes what is happening .


    As could we days ago. with some pics showing these gauges readings.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 3:21 PM
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    I Agree

    An anti-scald valve would allow higher tank temps which would in turn kill legionella and give more capacity. But in all fairness to the installer, if that wasn't included in the contract, the customer should pay the additional cost. Unless the local code requires it, we're talking the difference between standard practice and best practice. Whereas, you and I may only offer the job with best practice, not all contractors will.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 3:34 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok, the company came back today, and said the burner is wokring the way it is supposed to, but they are not sure why it only heats 1 degree every 30 minutes, especially when it never was this slow on oil.  They disabled the outdoor temperature thing, and still nothing changed.  they also said that the 007 pump is the correct pump.  ahh!  this is a pain!
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 5:16 PM
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    Thats like Grace ,

    aint going ,No Place.
    ok how about this , go get in the vehicle go down to the store and buy , one pipe strap on
    temp gauge
    with a spring
    to hold it to the pipe.

    when you get home ,
    with a bit of effort and right thinking
    we will give it a go.

    buy it one time and bang its yours for the duration..of this future "Session" in the episode of the ,
    Bewilderding baseboard bouncing....
    hope that helps ,

    well, if they are coming back again ...
    did you mention anything of what we have been saying to you ? these guys might benefit from the things we have said already ... because they have a lot of the basic H down , these small tweaks might round up their ability to do even better and make their time more productive ...
    clobbering them over the head with what we say after the visit or work each time is not what we would like to see happening for you or for them.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 27, 2013 5:40 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 5:30 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    the company now told us they are coming back next Wednesday and said something is wrong, and the pumps are competing with each other, and they need to fix the piping.  this "one" day project has turned into a 3 week one!  hopefully they fix it next week, but who knows at this point.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 6:52 PM
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    Okay, I See it Now

    The supply and return lines to the boiler are reversed at the Tees on the manifold. The boiler is connected for the "moose antler" manifold to flow right to left, but the manifold is setup for left to right flow.

    They're wrong about the domestic pump size, though. The manual calls for the 0010 circ.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:58 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I will bring up the pump size to them again.  they swore today that the 007 was right.  they initially reversed our heating zone 1 was heating zone 2 and vise versa.  could this have something to do with the problem as well? 
  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:14 PM
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    Doubt It

    Look at your first pic. See the two black pipes going down to the boiler? One has the black circ. Their connection at the Tees needs to be reversed.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:48 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok I will tell them that when they come next Wednesday.  Since we are using a large company, we have asked them to send someone who is more familiar with the Alpine this time.  hopefully they do
  • Rich Rich @ 9:26 PM
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    good catch . the pumped line needs to enter the header on the left .  I sent you a pump curve chart which you should print . Here is another attachment you should also print to show to the installer side by side and ask him to explain how this 007 will be sufficient for this SSU-45 ?  If you need help in reading a pump curve we can assist , it is very easy . Not many guys actually do it though as you have now witnessed first hand .
    Bob is also spot on about the possibility of an extra for the DHW mixing device . Not all installers actually practice best practices and this may be billable , I would however ask for it Gratis for your inconvenience , Call it Tuition ( Dan H "")for this company .   Funny thing about this whole indirect thing is that I was at a meeting with HTP Reps and the #4 man at HTP , we were discussing all the poor design and stupid mistakes we encounter on a daily basis .  Tell them also just switch the T Stat wires on the zone valves .  Sorry the document is upside down , guess you'll have to stand on your head .  Don't forget that the top tapping of the indirect is the supply , that is piped backwards also .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 27, 2013 9:37 PM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 11:31 PM
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    Your Right, Rich

    I wasn't even looking in that direction. How can an installer miss something that's clearly labeled?
    Well, we're all human and prone to err.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:58 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    thank you for the chart...although I'm not sure how to read it!  How do I explain to the plumber that the pump is the wrong size with this chart?  let me know.  thanks again, and happy holidays!
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:33 AM
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    well, the chart can be spun clockwise a couple times

    *~//:) ,
    then , depending upon the size and location and type of heat exchanger ...
    in your case , specific , it shows the type of circ for that heat exchanger when piped as it is suggested in your book on the HTP superstore .
    if you go to the thing that says HTP in gert BIG letters and look at the two pipe taps, one above the other you will make the discovery that ... the gauges would come in handy :)
    on the supply and return..
  • Rich Rich @ 11:52 PM
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    How To

    read pump curves .  There is a chart specifically for you attached , this should help . I drew the lines up and over for the minimum requirement for your DHW tank .  I am also attaching 2 links for you in case you have been kept from them so you can state your case on Wednesday .  The first is from HTP's website and depicts that the supply to the heating coil in all SuperStor indirects is always the top tapping and the lower is always the return ,
    The second is the install manual for Superstor tanks , please see page 13 which will give you a chart of total developed lengths of some common piping configurations for these units , the top chart is for 1 inch pipe including various fittings and piping lengths , my opinion on your particular install after considering this chart is that even the 0015 may not be enough pump for your system and may require a 0014 , smaller number , more pump . Of course you can determine better than I what your pipe lengths are from the pump to the tank and you can also count the fittings , Again after the chart , in the next few pages are a number of piping diagrams again depicting what is the supply port and return port for the SuperStors .       I do hope this all helps you in your quest for hot water . I will add that you should request that the water in the tank be stored at an elevated temperature (150) and a mixing device added to boost your storage capacity and your delivery . This boiler is a bit undersized for this tank also as per manufacturer so I would insist on that so you may enjoy this system as best you can .
    Don't forget your real issue , The heat . Make sure they change that line with the pump so it enters the header in the left tee .  Have a good weekend .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:20 AM
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    Question about flow

    Why size the pump for the maximum the tank can absorb when the boiler only puts out half of that?
  • Rich Rich @ 11:46 AM
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    007 add the required mechanical energy to overcome 7.9 feet of head through the heat exchanger even at say 5 or 7.2 GPM ?   Can we ignore the head issue as if it is alright to not be aware of these things when we accept someone's hard earned money or even ratepayer money since this was done through Mass Saves ?  In any event the 007 is not sufficient , agree ?  My point is even making concessions on flow the 007 will never add the required energy needed .  Don't forget the added head from the piping configuration which according to my calculations and HTP's at about 11 - 12 feet .  So, say we want to utilize 7.2 GPM and absorb every bit of energy that boiler has to give and make it run at top efficiency also , the 007 still does make it .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 29, 2013 12:02 PM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:09 PM
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    7.9 feet of head

    at 10 GPM means less at 8 GPM.  I don't see any HX curves in the SSU IOM and I can't really make sense out of Table 7 given that it shows higher head loss for 7 GPM than it does for 10 GPM.  Perhaps it represents multiple models?  Whatever it is saying needs clarification.

    At this point, I'm not saying an 007 is adequate (though it may be) but I do believe that 10 GPM is not necessary given the size of the boiler.  If row 1 (6 GPM) of Table 7 happens to apply to the SSU-45 then an 007 should work, but a 008 (or better yet, a Bumble Bee) would probably represent a better choice.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:36 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    thank you for the attached document and link.  I will show them this Wednesday.  So just to make sure I understand, the green pump needs to be a 0010 instead of a 00, and does the black pump also need to be changed?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 10:51 AM
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    I'm still questioning the need

    for 10 GPM when the boiler maxes out at 72,000 BTU/hr.  Or did I miss something?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 1:47 PM
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    I'm missing something, too.

    The attached pump chart shows a three speed 007 with higher curve than I remember. Has Taco now come out with 3 speed 007?

    I could see going to an 010 if the 007 wouldn't give enough gpm @ 8 ft. of head, but I agree that a 014 or 015 would bee too much if the boiler can't deliver enough btu's to match.

    I'm gonna pull up Taco's pump curve directly from their site to see if somthing has changed.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 2:08 PM
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    007 Pump curve

    Just checked Taco's site and all that I could find is a single speed 007. It produces 8 gpm @ 8 ft. of head. The 007IFC ( internal flow check) produces 2 gpm @ 8 ft. of head. The 8 feet of head is just the resistance of the SuperStore coil and does not include any piping/fitting losses. Given the fact that just adding an internal flow check reduces the gpm from 8 to 2, I'd install a larger circ. A 008 or Grundfos UPS15-58 on high speed should be sufficient to match the boilers capacity.

    I don't know where the info on the above pump curve comes from. If I'm missing something, please enlighten me.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Rich Rich @ 4:01 PM
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    from Taco of course

    The associated head for this arrangement is at least 11.1 ' . The 2 scenarios are on the attachment . 008  too small , 0010 too small , 0012 is a pain in the ass because the flanges differ from others and it costs , 009 too expensive , obvious Taco choice is 0014 . Am I wrong ?  SSU hx chart is on page 7 of the IOM
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 29, 2013 4:13 PM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 4:34 PM
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    Page 7

    shows pressure drop at recommended flow rates, but only @10 GPM for the SSU-45 as far as I can tell.  Using their number of 141,000 BTU/hr I get an assumed ∆T of 28.2ºF  If those are boiler output figures, the 72,000 the Alpine 080 would only need 5.1 GPM with that ∆T.  Assume a bit less, say 20ºF, and you get 7.2 GPM.  I suspect that somewhere in between lies a flow which will deliver all the BTUs that boiler can produce.
  • Rich Rich @ 4:49 PM
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    I agree

    We could use all that boiler can offer at 7.2 GPM . My concern is the head loss of the entire circuit . Will it not exceed 10 GPM ?  It certainly will and this is what must be addressed . I say that at 7.2 GPM and a 20 * ^T we use all that boiler can produce but if we cant move the fluid the Delta will decrease and we will not be harvesting all the energy that plant has to give us .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on November 29, 2013 4:53 PM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 5:21 PM
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    Exceeding 10 GPM

    on the indirect loop?  It's still possible I'm missing something here, but why?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 6:02 PM
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    008 curve

    The curve for the 008 shows that it will deliver 7.3 gal @ 11 ft of head. That exactly matches the output of the boiler and would give a 20* delta T across the boiler. Please explain how that is not enough circ? I don't understand how exceeding the boilers output would be any benefit.

    Also, keep in mind that head ratings are at a given gpm. The head increase or decreases proportionate to gpm.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 6:13 PM
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    I'm still questioning

    Whether 11 feet of head is realistic at 7.3 GPM.  If Table 7 applies to multiple models (unnecessarily confusing IMO) the 11.3' it shows must be for an SSU-30.  Otherwise, how can the head loss possibly be greater at 7 GPM than it is at 10 GPM?

    Does HTP have curves available?
  • Rich Rich @ 11:39 PM
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    In my last post I said 10GPM and meant feet head . Guess I should work or help but not simultaneously .  Bob's choice of a 008 would certainly fit this system , make it a VDT model and it's perfect set at 20* Delta .   baseboard heat help I will send you that chart and maybe myself and the others can explain to you why that choice is really very good.
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 8:33 AM
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    Page 92 of the installers guide

    explains who to program the boost function for recovery from setback. I recommend you set the bedrooms to whats comfortable and leave the living area within a few degrees of occupied temp.
    If you continue to have installer issues call Burnham tell them how many times the company has been back and insist on a company rep comes out.
    Im not a big fan of this type of boiler because of the the high resistance to water flow that requires these bigger pumps for boiler and idwh.
    Very simply you need a pump sized to flow app 6 gpm at the combined flow resistance of the boiler and the water heater. Just ask them what gpm is required by this boiler water heater combination and what is the head for each at that gpm,
    If they cant answer that call for a rep.
    Did they actually perform the required start up check list? ask them to provide documentation of start up.
    This stuff is all in the manual.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:52 AM
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    It's piped p/s, therefore, you don't need the combined resistance of the boiler and the indirect. Just the resistance of the indirect circuit. There should be no hydraulic interference from the boiler if its circ is sized correctly.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 7:51 AM
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    I missed

    the idwh piping as my eyes are getting older Its clear when i clicked on the pics.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:52 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    Thanks for all the replies.  This is all very new to me as I am a recent first time home buyer.  So what pump (green and black) should I be telling them they need?  I'm not sure if they performed the start up list...basically once they installed it, they were not able to turn it on because the town inspecter had to look at it first, and then someone from National Grid had to come by, approve it, then turn on the gas.  They did remove the outdoor temperature reading apparatus, and after using the heat for a few days without that, it does seem to heat up a bit faster.  but I was under the impression that the outdoor temperature reading is what helps keep the burner efficient, and if we removed that, isn't similar to us just burning oil at 180 degrees all the time?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:05 AM
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    Circ Size

    As I stated above: a Taco 008 or a Grundfos UPS15-58 on high speed.

    You are correct about the outdoor sensor: it needs to be re-connected with the reset curve properly calculated and set. Then the boost feature needs to be adjusted to match your life style. The problem is that most installers don't know how to do any calculations and therefore they leave the control set on the factory settings. These are very generalized and are set to make sure the customer will get enough heat under any circumstance. That means you're not maximizing the efficiency of the boiler. It set for worst case scenario.

    I would follow Steamfitter's advise and keep you bedrooms cooler and leave the living room area set at one temp.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on November 30, 2013 9:07 AM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:23 PM
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    DHW circ sizing

    agree that a 008 is a better choice than a 0010.  I'm going to see if I can pry some curves out of HTP just for fun.

    The Bumble Bee (HEC-2) has almost the same curve as the 008 and only costs a few bucks more.  I'd probably choose one of those.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 4:14 PM
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    may i take the conversation to another level ,

    for a moment?

    i'd like to discuss range ability and true primary secondary , and branch flow , and parallel primary off a branch in conjunction with domestic priority over ride with the onboard controls ,
    because this is the next stumbling block i think the guy will encounter.
  • Ezrio315 Ezrio315 @ 11:16 PM
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    Hot water baseboard

    It is similar to radiant heat, this system uses hot water heated by a boiler to heat a space by a combination of radiation and convection.Yes 5 to 10 degrees in about 15 minutes it is normal, even it produces more efficiency then normal hot water heater.
    Hot water heated by boiler and piped to fin-tube baseboard units and walls and  boilers fueled by natural gas, oil or electricity. I think now you are satisfied.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:37 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    hi, I think you hot water baseboard heating heats 1 degree in 30 minutes, not 5 in 15.  They are coming back today to take a look at it for the 4th time, so hopefully they get it right this time!
  • sgall sgall @ 12:57 PM
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    Your Setup

    is exactly the same as mine except i have the Superstor 60 I am also in MA.  Listen to the guys on here and you will get straightened out.  They helped with the design of my system which heats a 3700 sq. ft. house built in 1880 with the Alpine 80. Our heating cost went from ~$9k a year to under $2k.   I think as has been mentioned your indirect pump may be wrong. My plumber and the guys at the supply house tried to put taco 007's in my setup but i insisted on Grundfos 15-58's.  For the Indirect it is set on the highest speed.  I also had to get used to thinking about the system differently in that i was used to setting the thermostat back 10 degrees at night.  As you have experienced, it takes forever to come back to daytime temperature - ours takes particularly long since we have cast iron radiators. We now set back only 3 or 4 degrees at night.  I would add as has also been mentioned that you really want that outdoor reset working and I have played around in the past with using the boost feature and greater setbacks but the system seems to work best with small setbacks and no boost.  I think you will be happy with this system once you get the kinks out.
    This post was edited by an admin on December 4, 2013 1:01 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 3:10 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok, so the company just left and swears everything is fixed.  They did change the piping saying it was reversed at the tees like mentioned in an above post.  They put the outdoor reader back on.  I believe they did set a boost.  They filled the bathtub, and it filled, and the hottest it got was 117 degrees....this did not seem super hot to me, but they said 120 is as hot as it should ever go.  They swore that the taco 007 was the right pump, and I couldn't change their minds on that.  we have a 2700 sq foot house, a zone upstairs, a zone downstairs, and 700 of that square feet is not on a zone at all and just on a gas fireplace.  so really, 2000 sq feet heated by baseboard.  They still said that with the outdoor temp reader, the heat should not be set back by more than 4 degrees, and that we should not expect it to be very fast.  I guess over the next few weeks we will get a feel for how it is working.  
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:49 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok, fail again.  The hot water ran out again, and we never had this problem with our old hot water tank and oil burner.  they are claiming its the mixing valve, but why would this not have been an issue last month on the old burner then?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 7:27 PM
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    Never had this problem before

    what size boiler and what brand/size indirect did you have before?
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 8:42 PM
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    It could be

    the mixing valve. you can check by feeling the pipe from the water heater to the valve when this happens. Humans can sense within a few degrees of temperature differential. If the pipe from the water heater is cool then its not the mixing valve. What is the usage when it ran out.
  • Rich Rich @ 9:40 PM
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    Imagine that

    Did you run out during a high use period ?  Is there a mixing valve now ? What temp is the water in the tank being stored at ?   You did say you were located in Mass correct ?  Call HTP tomorrow 1-508-763-8071 and get technical on the line and explain your situation to them , tell them boiler size , what pump is being used to supply the coil and ask their opinion .  If you should want to have another look at this maybe we can find you someone local .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:58 PM
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    Mixing Valve?

    I see no mixing valve in your pics. Are they referring to your tub/shower diverter?

    Neither a bad mixing valve or shower diverter would cause the symptoms you're describing. If either were bad, you wouldn't have hot for a while then run out; the water would be cool from the start and continue to be so.

    Do the 5 gallon bucket test that I described earlier. In fact, you could keep filling and dumping the bucket until you run out of hot. Time it and count how many gallons you get and post it here. It will be very easy from that to tell if your indirect is performing correctly.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 1:23 AM
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    regardless ,of all this

    i have a common weed burner with an uncommon head and no reg i can slam at leaast 84000 btu's and hour out of it , in less than 1 hour i can have sweated your clothes off your back in 30 below in a 1200 to 1800 sq ft room with no question in my mind whatsoever.
    if an 80 K boiler running for days and weeks on end cannot make hot water nor heat the space , then you need to find who clocked the meter and find out from them if this thing is running on some sort of pilot or what precisely the current exiting boiler water temp is .
    this sounds like you do not even have any circulation whatsoever ..other than maybe single pipe gravity flow due to conduction to some heated pipe nearby the pilot ..
    you may have the only gravity alpine in North America.

    Where is even one gauge or readout that any of us have seen on this boiler?
    This post was edited by an admin on December 5, 2013 1:28 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:45 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    the hot water tank is the SSU-45.  Before we converted to gas, we had a 14 year old Burnham burner, but I'm not sure of the hot water tank or the size.  All I know is it was a bad decision to convert because what we had before the conversion was working great and we had no issues.  tha bath tub runs out at about 3/4 full, when it never did this before.  and no other water was being used around this time.  They are coming back yet again this morning. They said it was the mixing valve inside the bath tub.  I'm not sure what temp the hot water is being stored can I tell?  The Alpine changes it's temperature depending on what is needed.  I will try calling HTP and the 5 gallon bucket test as well.  In terms of who clocked the meter, I'm not sure I know what this means.  Do you mean the meter for the gas that is on the outside of the house?
    It just makse no sense to us that we had plenty of hot water and a house that heated up in minutes before this project, and now we are being told that we can never set back more than 3 or 4 degrees or we cannot expect the house to heat up, and it must be our mixing valve.  I think it must be the fact that they keep sending the same guy for this problem, and he does not know what to do.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 8:13 AM
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    have them bring you a spring attached

    Temperature gauge . it just straps on a pipe .
    it can be used on 3/4 to 1/1/2 no problem G. I.
    WeezboApollo S

    strap On Temperature Gauge
    Enlarged Image
    Apollo Strap On Temperature Gauge
    Item #: 113207 | Model #: VR68920

    $19.97 not an ad ,
    just an idea what it costs ... soon as you have this thing i can, oops ! :)
    a child of 5 ,
    could tell you what the temps are at any particular instance in a pipe ..
    these are accurate enough to give something to reference every single issue that you are having because it can be moved from pipe to pipe location to location ..
    i will hang in here though it is 4 a.m. here

    This post was edited by an admin on December 5, 2013 8:27 AM.
    Contact this user

    No regrets, just bad install

    Looks like you have some great equipment. I'm glad others pointed out some important items. Rich hit all the major important items needing to be addressed. I wouldn't regret the change just yet, as you just need some minor changes by knowledgable installers. If those inspectors were like they are here, the system has to work properly not just turn on. I would say almost every call I get for a IDWH problem lies with an improper install. Manufacturers don't list pump specs and pipe sizing recommendations just to fill up a manual.
    I would be very surprised if you couldn't have used an HTP boiler as well. I wouldn't question it , but then I seen the install pics.
    I'm not sure on that alpine but it might do more than you think when its in priority DHW mode. My SSU-30 provides endless tempered water for a full Grohe 3 zone shower plus laundry on an 80k boiler. You might be able to eliminate the IDWH pump if the primary loop pump will meet both manufacturer recommended specs and repiped. (Plus flow control device) Since in priority everything else will be off.
    Unfortunately sounds like you will need to print the correct data provided here and hold you plumbers hand politely. I would emphasize manufacturer suggested piping and material as well.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:44 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    the hot water has held up for the shower/tub, but we just ran out of hot water in the kitchen sink while washing dishes.  The plumber said with the mixing valve, we would never run out of hot water.  Also, we set the heat today, and left it at that temperature all day, and my brother thought that it was odd that the baseboard heat kept turning on and off.  He thought for this type of burner, that it should maintain the consistent heat that we set it at.  any thoughts on this?  I will print out the charts to give to them, but they told us that the Taco 007 was accurate, and that they do not make a 008.  So I didn't know what to say because this is all foreign to me.  I will also be giving the company who makes the tank/burner a call to see if they can give some insignt.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:58 PM
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    They Don't Make a 008?

    What's this then?
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 11:36 AM
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    All of this help

    And no one even knows what temperature water your boiler is making. I can't find it in a single post.  These guys are good, but not telepathic.

    I don't see that your installer put a single temp/pressure gauge on the system unless it is there and I've missed it.   

    Go to Home Depot, Lowes, etc. and get a $20 infrared thermometer. Get a roll of masking tape.  Put strip of tape on the black pipes going into and out of the boiler.  Take a reading when the boiler is running. Write it down and post it.

    The pumps have little arrows cast on them.  Put a strip of tape on the output side of each pump and take a reading.  Run your hot water and take a reading.

    I'll bet with $25 total investment and no dirt under the fingernails you can give the clue that solves the problem.

  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 11:17 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok I will print this out too and give this to them.  They just said they don't make an 008, and that they always put the 007 in houses that are bigger than ours, and that they do this all the time.  but clearly, something is wrong.  while the heat does go up, it's still not the fastest.  the heat seems a bit faster than before, but it got stuck at 63 degrees today for a long time, probably 45 minutes or so, before going up, and once it reached 68, that is when we noticed the hot water ran out in the kitchen sink.  we both showered today, had the heat at 68 all day, and ran the dishwasher.  is this typical, or should the water have stayed hot in the sink?  it never ran out before this new system
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 2:27 AM
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    Did you read what Plumber said?

    a 30 is what he and i both said would be more than sufficent ,
    how a bout Iron man run the water into a bucket time it , i am not a Well man , i am a shallow Well Man . we do this to determine GPM draw down etc... it is cheap is wisdom itself , honest ladd.
    we are not making this stuff up...
    consider for a moment ,
    does it sound like , if there is a : 003 , 004 ,005,006,007 , 009 , 0010 ,0012,0013 .......that there wouldn't BE a 008?

    Please ...think about it .
    if you do not like the simplicity of a gauge that hold around a pipe maybe you get a hobo or Azel or whatever
    Dual Zone Digital Temperature Gauge(thermometer) with 2 sensor probes

    Dual Zone Digital Temperature Gauge(thermometer) with 2 sensor probes
    The microprocessor-based, AZEL Technologies Digital Temperature gauge(thermometer) DS-60P represents the “next generation” in temperature gauge industries. The bold, hi-contrast LCD display ensures accurate temperature reading to the tenth degree and can be easily read from greater distances than the conventional mechanical temperature gauge.

    That info is from someone who did not even say word one ....
    while spendier it is well worth it could say well Hmmm.. guy the digital read out says neither one of the pipes even has any flow How COULD IT be heating my home...: )))
    This post was edited by an admin on December 8, 2013 2:51 AM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 12:24 AM
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    I hope you see...

    That you're gonna have to start listening to what the pros on this site are telling you and not what the amateurs who put your system in are saying. Seriously, some of the best, if not the best, hydronic people in the world contribute here, not the least of whom is the owner of this site.
    Mark Eatherton is an internationally recognized expert who is president of the Radiant Panel Association and writes technical articles for trade journals. He has contributed advice to this post. The people who installed your system continue to spout off their ignorance by saying things like "there's no such thing as a Taco 008" or we've always done it this way", yet they apparently can't even read a pump curve. And your system doesn't work right.

    I understand that it's confusing for you trying to grasp all this techno jumble and I'm not intending to be hard on you. I'm just trying to get you to see the logic: your installer put the system in wrong by their own admission. It doesn't work right. You came here looking for answers from the pros. Your installer keeps contradicting what we tell you. Who are you gonna listen to?

    Please do the the bucket test that I requested. Until we know how may gpm of hot water you're flowing and how long it lasts, it cannot be determined if the indirect is doing its job.

    Also, as mentioned previously, the indirect should be set to have priority. This is done in the boiler control. If not set up properly, it won't perform properly.

    I am sympathetic to your dilemma and we want to see you get this resolved and be happy with your system.

    Please continue to keeps us up dated.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 3:15 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok, I filled a 5 gallon bucket with hot water in the bathtub, and in exactly 60 seconds, the bucket was filled.  The bathtub has not run out of hot water since they put the mixing valve in.  It was last night when the hot water ran out in the kitchen sink for the first time.  I have asked them several times if the Taco pump is wrong, and I explained that we got advice online, and they just refused to listen that the pump was wrong.  I will show them the charts and hope they see that, but I wouldn't know how to explain the chart to them.  Am I able to insist that they give us a new pump?  This is my first home, so my first time dealing with a heating company, and I don't quite know what else to say to them because I have said to them the last 2 times they came that the pump is wrong.  The heat seems to be able to go up 4 degrees faster now since they switched the piping, and this takes about 45 minutes, but then any degree after that takes a lot longer, more like 30 to 45 minutes per degree.  We have still been setting back at night only because we get too hot at night otherwise. 
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 3:41 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok, I take that last post back.  I did just run out of hot water for the
    bath.  When I tested it after they put in the mixing valve, it was fine
    Wednesday-Friday.  But right now, after approximately 5, 5 gallon
    buckets were filled with hot water, the hot water then ran out and only
    cold water came out.  let me know what this means
  • Rich Rich @ 3:53 PM
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    This means

    you should start researching the consumer fraud protection laws in Mass , contact those who administer the program directives for Mass Saves and tell them about your problems . Next look in the find a contractor place on this site and have it properly addressed by someone qualified to install or repair such a system . Then go about retrieving damages from the guy who cannot read manufacturers specs and that does not know that Taco makes anything other than a 007 .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Ironman Ironman @ 6:04 PM
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    5 GPM

    That's a lot of hot water per minute for one fixture. You ran out after 27.5 gal.

    Assuming that you started with a full tank of hot water, you'll usually get about 80% of the tank's storage capacity. That would be 36 gal. in your case (45x.8=36). Your boiler/indirect combination can recover 2.4 gpm if everything is set up correctly and the piping and circulator are correct. That means in the 5.5 minutes that it took to empty your tank of hot water, it should have produced an additional 13 gal.(5.5x2.4=13.2). Add to that the missing 8 gal. (36-27.5=8.5) and you come up short about 21 gal. from what your system's max capacity should be if everything's just right.

    I see a few things from all the info that's been provided that may cause this:

    1. The 007 circ is too small to transfer heat to the indirect quickly enough when water is being drawn from it, particularly when'll the tub is drawing @ 5 gpm. When there's no draw on the tank, the 007 will eventually satisfy the tank. This seems to be the issue that your installer can't grasp. It's not a matter of if the 007 will transfer enough heat, but of how long it takes. Change this to a 008 circ which will transfer the full capacity of the boiler (72k btu's, 2.4 gpm) to the indirect. The 2.4 gpm is the domestic draw, not what's going between the boiler and the indirect. We're looking for 7.3 gpm between them.
    2. The hydronic (boiler side) supply and return lines are connected backwards at the indirect. This will cause a reduction in output. Has this been corrected since your photo?
    3. The boiler control MUST be configured properly in order for the indirect to perform properly. This involves:
    A) setting the control to give priority to domestic heating.
    B) setting the control to run the BOILER and DHW circulators, but NOT the SYSTEM circulator during a domestic call.
    C) setting the BOILER supply water temp to 180* during a domestic call.
    D) setting the burner's rpm to maximum during a domestic call. This is the factory setting but it may have been changed.

    4. Setting the aquastat on the indirect to at least 140* or more and using a thermostatic mixing valve to lower it down to 125* or less going out to the fixtures.
    5. The final thing has already been mentioned: 5 gpm draw from your tub is more than twice the rate of what a modern energy saver diverter would use. Either install a new diverter or slow down the fill rate of your tub. In other words, throttled down your hot water faucet when filling your tub.

    The most common combination of boiler and indirect that I install is a 85k btu mod/con boiler with a 28 gal. indirect. I never have complaints of running out of hot water, even with large families. The one exception being an old tub diverter filling at over 6 gpm.

    If you and your installer will do what I've listed above, I believe you'll be satisfied with your system's performance. Remember, this is a new, efficient system and it should save you significantly in energy, but you can't expect it to perform exactly like the old energy hog that was there before.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on December 8, 2013 6:12 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:20 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    Thank you for the information Ironman.  I will print out those steps you listed and give them to the company that is coming back tomorrow, and it sounds like I need to insist they switch the 007 for the 008 pump.  they did come back last week and said they did some piping wrong and that it was reversed.  They spent an entire day correcting it.  I am guessing that this is what you noticed from the picture was reversed?  If it helps, I can take more pictures to show you.  How can I tell if the hydronic supply and return lines are connected backwards at the indirect?  I know this is a new energy efficient system, so it's not the same as the old one.  Are you saying that with this new system and the same bath tub, we can expect to have to slow down the hot water rate?  It's hard to hear that because I loved how the old boiler had extremely hot baths that never ran out, and filled up quick.  Why do you think we ran out of hot water at the kitchen sink while washing dishes?  We surly did not use 25 gallons then.  and I just timed the heat.  it went up 4 degrees in about an hour, then slowed down from there, and took about 30 minutes per degree to go up any further.  Is this what I should expect from the Alpine?  about a 4 degree set back, and beyond that, it will be slower?
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 6:43 PM
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    Grundfos Comfort System Hot Water Recirculator System , UP15-10 SU7P TLC, 595916, Comfort Valve

    Grundfos Comfort System - Hot Water Recirculation System The water circulation system that eliminates cold water runoff at the faucet using a bypass valve and pump with a timer to control water flow. Hot Water Recirculation - Special Features- The ultimate in convenience is having hot water instantly available at sinks, appliances and bathroom faucets. The elimination of time spent waiting is especially convenient in areas where the installation of low flow showerheads and faucets are required by law. Hot water recirculation improves the efficiency and effectiveness of household appliances including washing machines and dishwashers by having hot water available instantly. Users can save energy by setting the 24 hour programmable timer to make hot water available during peak demand times, such as early morning and in the evening. The recirculation pump can be installed by a certified contractor in two hours. For the average home, hot water recirculation systems generally cost a few hundred dollars, including parts and installation. A wet rotor design for whisper-quiet and maintenance-free operation. Stainless steel rotor cladding and canister construction, an exclusive UP 15 series feature, ensures corrosion-resistance and extended product durability. A low-watt, two-pole motor combined with low-flow performance ensures minimum water heater operating costs, pipe and water heater wear and energy consumption. Significant water (and sewer) disposal savings, retaining the 12,000 to 38,000 gallons of water a typical U.S. home wastes annually waiting for hot water. Some fast-growing counties are making the installation of hot water recirculation pumps mandatory for all new construction projects.
    Well ,
    here is another concept that might decrease your ownership costs , enhance their product , ....
    There are other manufacturers of domestic recirc systems ...
    .... you realize that , one side of this is the ladds who installed this have to make a living as well, by now , they have paid a great deal of penance for this already , if you share the info , they would know in their minds that what we are saying is true . That would help them and your community .

    *~//: )
    This post was edited by an admin on December 8, 2013 6:44 PM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:48 PM
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    If you'll look at your pics of the indirect, the larger copper lines that connect near the bottom of the tank are backwards. Did they change that?

    Your old boiler probably had a much larger burner and was way over-sized. If it had a tankless coil in it to heat domestic, it stayed at 160-180* constantly whether there was any demand or not. It had to do this to be able to heat domestic water "on demand" since you had no storage tank. This means that it was terribly inefficient and constantly loosing heat up the chimney. Yes it gave quick results, but with a very hefty and unnecessary price attached.

    Your New boiler only fires when there's a call for heating whether it's space heating or domestic. When it does space heating, it calculates the water temperature necessary to maintain the house based on outdoor temperature. The colder it gets outside, the higher it will raise its water temp, and vise versa. So, it may only be sending 140* water to your radiators on a milder day because that's all that needed, unless you set your thermostat back. Then it has to play catch up instead of keep up. That's what the boost feature is for. It's kinda like a runner that's behind at the end of a long race: he has to exert more energy to catch up. The boost feature temporarily raises the targeted water temp to catch up.

    Maintaining boiler supply temp based upon outdoor temp is called outdoor reset. It greatly saves energy and increases comfort in the house - if the thermostat is left at one temp. Setting the thermostat back and up again is counter-productive to what the outdoor reset is trying to accomplish. Your boiler also modulates it's firing rate from 20 to 100%. The lower the firing rate, the more efficient it is. Using setback will cause the boiler to go into high fire in order to try to catch up. That means less efficiency.

    Again, you're also now storing water in your indirect rather that heating it instantaneously as it passes through a coil in a hot boiler. As I stated previously, with an output of 72k btu's, your boiler will heat up the cold water going into the indirect at a rate of about 2.4 gpm. That's if everything in your system is right. Add to that the water that's stored in the tank already and you should get plenty of hot water; you just can't draw it off so fast.

    6 gpm is enough hot water for three showers simultaneously with energy saver faucets; your pulling almost that much through one tub which is not necessary. Slow it down a little. A sink faucet, particularly a laundry sink, can also draw off hot water at a high rate if it's not an energy saver. Do the bucket test on that also.

    Again, you're not making hot water instantaneously. Your making it at 2.4 gpm and storing it. That means if you just exhausted all the hot water in the tank by filling the tub, it's gonna take about 20 minutes to replenish the tank. If you try to run another fixture before then, you're gonna come up short.

    I have a 50 gal. gas water heater that has a 42k btu burner. When I'm not firing my outdoor wood boiler, it has to carry all of the domestic load alone. I still have three daughters plus a teen age son and my wife and my self at home. The gas water heater does fine under those circumstances if we stagger our showers by about twenty minutes. You have more capacity than that with 45 gal. And a 72k btu burner.

    I have a diesel pick up truck that produces 435+ horsepower and will blow the doors off of most anything on the road. Even with a load on it. But it gets about 16 mpg. My wife loves driving it, but my wallet is much happier when she's driving her 100 horsepower Honda Civic and getting 32 mpg. :)
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:06 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    thanks for the answers.  I'm not exactly sure what they changed, but it took them a full 8 hours to do so.  I've attached new pictures of the system, as well as the Taco.  Do the copper lines appear to be corrected or no?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:45 PM
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    Can't Tell

    I honestly can't tell from these pics, because I cannot trace the piping all the way.

    In the 2nd pic of your previous set, you will notice directly under the "HTP" label there are two lines connected at the bottom of the tank. They are backwards. The supply should be at the top and return on the bottom. If you trace the bottom line back towards the boiler, you will see that it connects to the circulator. The circ should be pumping towards the indirect making it the supply line. That line should be the top connection on the tank, not the bottom.

    Comparing that photo to what you have now will tell you if they changed it.

    Again, the proper path would be that the upper connection at the bottom of the tank connects back to the green circ on the vertical line above the boiler. That circ has an arrow on the side of its casting: it should be pointing up.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    Contact this user

    Manufacturer specs specs specs,,,,,, manuals are only useless in the wrong language

    Just asking a theory question, but does anyone else think think by me using the smaller IDWH 30 gal or smaller that it recovers quicker because of less mass to heat up. Regardless of boiler sizer.

    I personally pipe almost all of my IDWH with 1.25" copper and a 0010 pump. I do this to help take the head loss calls out of the equation, even tho manufacturer specs 1" copper. I also try to do a layout where piping is kept to a minimum and still is service functional and esthetic. I have seen many piped with 3/4" because "that's what the connections are" excuse. That tells me right there they've never been to a training seminar for anyone's products.
    I just read the specs for the SSU45 and it states at 5gpm flow he should see a minimum of 70 gal initial dump with 180 supply @ 10gpm pump flow, which a 008 I believe would struggle to do with the current piping. I see no one has mentioned (unless I missed it) or calculated the HL for (what appears to be 1" S&R) the IDWH piping alone plus the coil. It roughly appears to be another 11-13' of head at the recommended 10gpm flow for the piping alone.
    I think the HO should gather his info and contact HTP and get an engineered drawing or statement, since it appears the plumber is having a hard time understanding the HO's needs and concerns correctly. Unfortunately these are the calls I get far too often with these same products. And it can be difficult to explain to a type A personality that good workmanship doesn't always mean good or proper performance. To get around this , I go direct and get an engineers approved piping plan. There are many out there that will do this for free, especially the seller or manufacturer rep. HTP local rep goes well out of their way for me. Then I provide the HO with the most accurate knowledge and paperwork. Hard for any turd bender to argue with, if he has any class.
    The next option would be a full review online with documentation of the installer. I'm guessing he is not a certified installer for anyone's radiant product line or we wouldn't be 40 posts in by now.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:06 PM
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    Nature of the beast...

    As numerous people have already posted, the DHW is "theoretically" capable of delivering a substantial amount of hot water per hour (first hour after having been fully charged) with all "conditions" being ideal. I have two of those tanks up at my mountain home, and I don't use the factory provided aquastat well for the following reason.

    During normal intermittent draws, the lower half of the tank becomes completely saturated with cold water. By the time the quastat does finally get cold enough to call for the boiler, it's already half out of DHW, and if the boiler is cold, then you end up with a WHOLE bunch of cold equipment heating itself up to get to the point that it is at a "steady state" of operation. Tis the nature of the beast, and I suspect that the engineers who designed it knew exactly what it was that they were doing. By having the coil completely immersed in cold water, it significantly affects the recovery numbers. But in real life, it CAN cause a shortage of DHW. I put my own aquastat wells in the bottom of the tank, and yes, it does have a tendency to short cycle, but I don;t run out of hot water, and my heat source is only 50K btuH (operating at 8,000' ASL, so it is actually less than that) and it works just great.

    Now, if it were a reverse indirect, it's heat transfer capacity is SIGNIFICANTLY larger due to the significantly increased surface area of the RI.

    One way of overcoming the HTP tanks high aquastat location might be t install a destrat pump to keep the tank mixed up better, thereby reflecting the consumption of hot water, and allowing the tank to react sooner. Expect short cycling, but great regular capacity. I think maybe turning the tank set point higher will help alleviate the shortages, but they STILL might occur under certain use patterns.

    Also, I have experienced a number of issues with the Honeywell aquastat that comes standard on the tanks. Sloppy set point and differential, compounding the DHW shortage issues.

    Lastly, the control that comes on the Lochinvar boiler, if properly applied WILL stand on its head and spit wooden nickels. In the hands of an untrained technician, they can be a disaster, but what piece of equipment ISN'T a disaster in the wrong hands….

    There is a feature on these boilers that can be programmed to BOOST the supply temperature, thereby overriding the ODR program if the call for heat is sustained. I use it on my mountain home, and it makes all the difference (pun intended) in the world.

    If I were the homeowner, I'd ask the installer to request a visit by the boilers manufacturers representative. These guys know their stuff, and it is probably just a mis-applied control parameter that is causing the majority of this consumers problems.

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    Contact this user

    Wait, is that 007 still in there?

    0015 wow for a primary pump. Is that 007 still in there, and with the internal flow check. .???
    Did they do a test to see the total HW Gallons or a dump load test. It appears it should take all of 7-9 minutes to determine. I'm sorry you are having trouble. I think you need to look up this energy plan and the contractor. Also check to see if he is listed with HTP or the boiler manufacturer.
    Yes the piping looks good but why use black iron at all with a SS boiler and the rest of the nice equipment they installed. I still prefer a loop on the secondary. The mixing valve might give you a few more gals but your still missing the boat. The 007 is only gonna flow a couple gals at best , maybe a gal with the F5 internal check.

    Can't see it, but it looks like they didn't change the S&R piping on the HTP. Still backwards, which is clearly stated on page 12 of the manual.
    This post was edited by an admin on December 8, 2013 9:46 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:04 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    I wish I knew more about these things...I'm not sure what the circulator looks like.  On the HTP, below that, I see the 2 lines.  The bottom of the 2 lines below the HTP connects to the green Taco 007.  Is this what you are referring to Ironman?  Let me know if I am completely looking at this wrong.  If you click my pictures they should enlarge.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:27 PM
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    ok a little help...

    zoom around to the side of your HTP tank now and try to get a picture of the gauge that is way up at the ceiling level ...if you follow that down it connects to your shiney silver gizmo with the bright green dial.

    then , after that pic ,one from a step back or so because i tend to see another minor technicality known as neglected aspect , in the potable water piping it is no big deal ,
    it is just these two pictures would enable more than one person to reply intelligently to the hot water issue ...
    *~//: )

    Mark , it is hard to communicate with me i have no doubt , i noticed peoples eyes glazing over a few years back so then i wondered if it was because i had been using words and terms they normally do not encounter ...
    let me run an interpretation of one line of what you just said ...

    Mark said , The heating issue has yet to be explored properly.

    Ok , good to see you : )

    he he .. Congrats to RPA is in order for recognizing your Right Effort in The Work.
    *~//: )
    This post was edited by an admin on December 9, 2013 12:06 AM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 12:42 AM
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    If the circ is piped to the bottom connection, then it's still backwards. It should connect to the upper one.
    Enlarging your most recent pics still doesn't show all of the piping to me.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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    Circulator = Taco pump

    Yes the circulator is the taco pump. In hydronics they actually don't pump water. They create a pressure differential on each side of the "pump". The pressure differentials always try to equalize, thus the water moves to balance, or circulates. I hope I explained that good.

    Anyways, in the HTP manual it states the top port is connected to the outlet of the taco circulator, then the inlet of the taco connects to the boiler hot supply. The bottom port on the tank connects to the boiler return. In almost these exact words. There is also a head loss chart for the piping and the tank itself, then a recommended GPM flow rate and what you will make for hot water at both 180 & 200 degree supply temps. It can all be calculated out pretty accurately in just a few minutes. Then a quick look at Tacos site and how to's on selecting a proper pump.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:57 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok, I double checked, and under the HTP words, the bottom of the 2 pipes is connected to the Taco, and the top is connected to an Amtrol water heater expansion tank model ST-5.  So are you saying these are still reversed?? they are coming this morning, and we insisted they bring a supervisor this time.  I attached more pictures like requested.  I think you maybe can see the piping a bit better.  It is hard to get good pictures in the basement.  let me know what you think.  They should be here soon and I have printed out all the attached charts and directions you guys posted to give to them.  
  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:22 AM
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    It's backwards. Your second pics shows it clearly. I'm referring to the two connections directly below the "HTP" label.

    If you can't get them to correct the problems today, then I recommend that you follow Mark's advice and insist that they get a factory rep out there.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on December 9, 2013 8:28 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:26 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok thanks for your help.  this is so shocking that a large company made this many mistakes.  Should I just show them the piping on the HTP and tell them it is backwards, or is there some type of term I should use so they better understand me.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:46 AM
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    Not Shocking at All

    The larger the company, the more difficult to maintain quality control. Most of the pros on here have one to four man shops for this very reason. They want to maintain a high level of quality.

    Your guys workmanship is good, but they're lacking in technical knowledge. Like most folks, when confronted with their errors, they've become defensive rather than swallow their pride and seek the truth. The reason that the pros here have the level of knowledge they do is not because they're necessarily smarter or just because of experience. It's because they have a desire to know. That will drive a man to find the truth. Most folks are waiting for someone to drop it in their lap. But, I digress.

    Just tell them. The tank should be labeled or they can look in the manual.

    Let us know how it goes.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 9:19 AM
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    The term is

    Your guy piped the Indirect WH boiler piping backwards. You should also ask for the startup checklist and combustion analyzer report.
    I still think the don't have the control parameters set correctly. They should be able to go through those with you at the boiler in 10 minutes or so.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:52 AM
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    ok well, you have a mixed tempered blend going out,

    while i cannot see the numbers exactly that dial is a read , and it appears to be set around 120 F .

    so thats plenty hot . and allows some bounce for the hot water in the tank ,

    if it says 100 , you can turn it higher by taking the green cap off the valve , it has a Delta Key or a triangular shaped key tooled into that which fits the valve adjustment underneath the cap .

    it has a direction arrow scribed into the metal for hotter water or cooler ..

    letting some water out in a sink or tub slowly will allow flow and you can change it to the slightly higher setting if it does not read 120.

    we often start there then take a water temp at every sink , and tub in the house and we are looking for a magic # of 111 F . at the tubs.

    so, they have indeed tried to do this and it will help them in the future just in wasted time while trouble shooting and making a better product.

    this is a plus for both you and them ,now.

    both of you helped each other . That , over time sets a positive energy into motion .

    That is a good thing.

    *~//: )
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 2:44 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    so I made my case that the Taco pump is wrong, and they refused to put in a new one, saying that the 007 is plenty good enough because we have a 2 story house, and a 3 story house would need the 010.  he agreed that the manual calls for the 010, but would not swap the pump.  he also would not change the copper piping on the HSP, saying that since there is a coil in it, it does not matter that it is reversed.  he believes the heat works fine, but admitted that the hot water is not working properly.  It is not heating up water fast enough, and he tested the bath tub by sowing down the water flow, and it ran out at about 80% again in 13 minutes.  He is coming back yet again, but this time we insisted he come with an Alpine rep.
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 3:20 PM
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    This guy has no real understanding of hydronics.

    The pump is in a closed system and building height has zero impact. Hopefully your rep has a better understanding of hydronics. You need the 0010 because of the water heaters internal friction loss.
    This is typical for most HVAC or plumbing co. Good workmanship but they lack technical knowledge.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 3:45 PM
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    Oh boy

    "So I made my case that the Taco pump is wrong, and they refused to put in a new one, saying that the 007 is plenty good enough because we have a 2 story house, and a 3 story house would need the 010." 

    There's your problem.  He hasn't a clue.  The circulator on the indirect doesn't care if the house is 200 stories, because it just pumps through the coil in the tank.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:22 PM
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    You Can't Fix Stupid

    This guy is living proof of that.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    Contact this user

    Very,very sorry

    You have to go thru this. Some great posts here right on the money. Speaking of money, it sounds like the only thing this stubborn contractor will understand is non payment. Unfortunately you've exhausted all polite and technical attempts to correct the issue. There is nothing you can do with this guy , when he admits its wrong but REFUSES to correct.
    This is where a nice public review and or contact with the source that recommended him should be informed. I mean the whole idea is to be. More efficient, this doesn't mean just purchasing HE equipment, but making it work as designed. Here in Michigan you have to have training certs for all employees not just the BO to be listed in the installer program. Even tho there still are a few that might get by.
    Me personally, I would call your local inspector and see what input they might have. I mean they don't always catch everything and a resident asking for help might get more action. We have to follow manufacturers install methods and in your case pipe size, connection , and pump selection would get flagged because it does not meet code by way of not meeting the specs properly. It has to meet both local and manufacturers.

    By the way there used to be a great site that had lots of near boiler piping and example pics. With good explanation in lay men's terms for everyone to understand. It used HTP products in many examples and burnham.
    Good luck, I think a REP and inspector would be my next guy on site.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 3:22 PM
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    Though requesting a rep on site is a good idea which I and others have suggested, be aware of on caveat: the contractor is his customer, not you.

    If he sees something wrong, he can talk to the contractor privately and ask him to correct it, but he's not going to rebuke him in front of you or take your side. Not if he's ethical. And, if he's a Burnham rep, he may or may not say anything about the proper installation of an HTP product.

    The inspector, on the other hand, has legal authority to enforce the code. To what degree your state's code addresses proper design and selection of system components like the circ in question, I do not know. Also, how savvy the inspector is will be a factor.

    You don't have to know anything technical. All you have to do is insist that your system is not performing properly and let the rep and inspector know that the contractor admitted there are errors in the installation but refused to correct them.

    Make sure you have the installation manuals for both products so the inspector can see what the manufacturer calls for. Particularly, the HTP manual and have the pertinent pages marked.

    I will add one other point, though you might be careful about mentioning it to the inspector: the pump curves from Taco clearly indicate that the 008 is the correct choice, not the 010. But apparently the HTP manual calls for the 010. I don't know why they do this because the 008 is a medium "head" pump and the 010 is a low "head" pump. The 010 can only overcome 8 ft. of head (resistance to flow) @ 1 gpm. The 008 can give you 7.3 gpm @ 11.1 ft. of head. Though the indirect may be listed to take an 015, that would assume a larger boiler than yours is connected. It makes no sense to install a pump that will not match the capacity of the boiler AND the flow requirements of the indirect. The 008 wil do this perfectly, the 007 falls way short @ 2 gpm. The height of the house has absolutely no bearing upon this.

    The inspector may or may not understand this, the rep should.

    Let me add one other thing: when we use the term "rep" we are referring to a factory rep that has extensive technical knowledge of Burnham's products and hydronics, not his local sales rep, though he may be knowledgeable.

    You may also want to contact Nation Grid and make your case to them. The threat of being removed from their approved contractor list may motivate this one to correct your system.

    Also, have you tried talking to the owner or manager of this company? Many times, they may be unaware or mis-informed about what's going on. Getting them there on site may get your problem resolved. I'd try that before going to outside authorities.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 5:28 PM
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    this is a chart ,

    Look at the chart.

    does it act anything like the numbers you read by doing the bucket test?

    If we can put hot water in all the tubs and sinks in a home and run them overly full so that water runs down the overflows... and test the temp at each fixture at that time ,on a new home... how can it be that your system does not?

    what is it of a Magical nature that excludes your system from doing that Eh?

    lets discuss the heat again ... this intrigues me even more ...

    i am not sold on that entirely .

    i am big on seeing things like the guys from Missouri .


    even if everyone else thinks it sounds ok , i like to learn just like the next guy...

    the chart says 212 gallons an hour @ 140 WITH THE BOILER STEADY PRODUCING 180 f
    292 GALLONS AN HOUR @ 115 F with the boiler steady producing 180F for an ssu-45

    reading the chart for a residential indirect heat exchanger an ssu -30 pumps out 154 gallons an hour @ 140 and 212 gallons an hour at 115F .... at a Pressure drop of 6 ft .head...

    this is why i say that the temp gauges are something that helps me the dummy understand what is what.

    so lets just do the math for a moment ..

    we will use the 27 gallons in 20 mins = 3 X 27 = 81 gallons
    or " " " 27 " " 15 mins = 4 X 27 = 108 gallons an hour for the first hour .

    choose either . i will go with the first one because i have no idea whatsoever how long this "Wait for it to come back up" , took ...

    81 + 81 = 162 gallons ... that is 2 X 81 . even the 30 out preforms that at 140F

    for the 45 with a mixer , at 115F on your potable water ...

    292 gallons an hour / 81 gallons = over three times as much in the first hour .

    ok say the number s were a pack of lies lol and This Plummer guy and i are just really really lucky , it has nothing to do with either of us thinking these things out ,

    what do you think the variables are ?
    This post was edited by an admin on December 10, 2013 7:44 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 5:46 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    hopefully the Alpine rep will know what's going on.  We do have the instalation books for both the Alpine and HTP.  The local inspector did come by when it was first installed and approved it, as did National Grid, but if they can't get it right tomorrow, we will give them both a call.
    I'm not sure how to read the chart you provided.  All I know is that they tested the hot water in the bathtub, and it ran out at 80% full, and they then waited for the hot water tank to fully recover, and again, tried to fill the tub again with hot water but slowing down the flow, and it ran out at 13 minutes.  He just said the hot water is not producing fast enough.
    Will changing the pipe direction on the HTP solve this problem?  He would not change it because he said since there is a coil, the direction does not matter.  and the pump he refuses to believe is incorrect, so hopefully the Alpine rep can help him with this.  They are coming by tomorrow.  We have missed sooo many days of work to be home for this I'm really hoping it ends tomorrow.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 6:29 PM
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    I can't say how much difference changing the piping will make. It's obviously wrong and why would HTP label it if it didn't matter which way they went?
    Your contractor doesn't understand basic hydronics or heat transfer. The supply is obviously the hotter line. It should meet the hotter water in the tank which is closer to the top. The return is the cooler line. It should meet the cooler water at the bottom of the tank.

    Changing the pump should make the greatest difference since a properly sized pump will transfer heat from the boiler to the indirect more quickly.

    As far as him not believing the circ is wrong, I've already said: "You can't fix stupid".
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 4:30 AM
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    lets consider another set of numbers ,

    lets think
    it took 20 mins to recharge,

    2 X 27 = 54 gallons an hour for the first hour at 115 F ,
    The chart reads 292 ,

    that is 240 gallons an hour that somehow vanished off the radar .

    it could be a number of reasons , one the boiler has some quantity of glycol in it ,

    another reason might be because the boiler cannot sustain that actual ideal180F

    another may be that the incoming water is said to be 50 and or higher buh in actuality it is 36 F ,
    or some number 34 F
    there is also the issue from time to time of potable water quality itself
    that can carry minerals or materials that for whatever reason ,
    cling to the heat coil/s
    and reduce the ability of the exchanger to keep up over time as it forms an insulative barrier on the coil...

    it may have something to do with a rough approximation that the average useage is say 20 gallons of hot water a day per useage
    and these numbers on the chart
    only "Work' when the incoming potable water temp is 70 degrees with a boiler/heat source with water "supplying a constant and unvarying 180 F piped with the right size circulator , to the correct opening , with the pipe sized to deliver the least resistance insulated against transmission heat loss ,....

    it may be that some or all of the above are true ,
    did you see the formula that Ironman gave for what is occuring as you use water and when it runs out ,and what the pick up time is after the draw down ?

    that is a form of back engineering as it were ,
    it is what might be called a mathematical formula for
    the actual over the theoretical ...

    or effectiveness of the conglomeration of parts pieces and variables .

    this is honestly why the gauges make thinking things through much easier and less time consuming .

    especially for some one as dense as me . in some systems i even put pressure ports for differential gauges on both sides of a circ , i am just that thick headed. i want to be able to see the temp of the return and the supply and know what the pump is "Up against" ..i hope that helps i honestly do. there is the thought out there that you cannot get perfectly accurate readings across circs so , "why bother ?"
    my thought is,
    ' try it . you might like it...'
    *~//: )
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:07 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so the plumber said to my husband that head feet is the altitude for how high the pipes go, and that for our house, the 007 would be able to pump over 20 gallons per minute, and this would be sufficient.  Is there a way for me to explain that this is wrong or not sufficient in a manner that I can understand and relay to him again?  He also said that the HTP manuel is removing the input/output label on the HTP because he said since there is a coil, that it does not matter.  Does this make any sense, or does it sound all wrong?  I was not around for this explanation as I had to go out for a bit, but this is what he explained to my husband. They are bringing an Alpine rep tomorrow, and if they discover it is not the Alpine that has the issue, then they said they will come back another day with an HTP rep.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 7:50 PM
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    feet of head .

    is the resistance the circulator over comes.

    if i choke the pipe size down to 1/16th of an inch and move the indirect 7 miles away the pump 6 feet lower than it is right now and the indirect 600 feet down the hill and around the bend and down in a ravine ...with a 300 hp Hydraulic pump might not be able to over come Head.
    pipe fittings , length of pipe , are part of a resistance load.

    if he looks in an electrical diagram and sees resistance and 400 feet of wire to get there there will be voltage drop .

    even if the resistance is removed from the picture , there will still be voltage drop.

    if he looks in a plumbing code book and has water 200 feet from the source there will be resistance . every fitting part and piece on that 200 feet offer resistance .

    so , sometimes the supply pressure needs to be turned higher to overcome that .

    the bigger the pipe the more volume . the more volume the less resistance to flow.

    so, if the resistance is to be overcome there is the way to lower resistance .
    now if i have a pump that is stronger headed in the opposite direction it becomes a battle of which is stronger of the two.

    if the pump that i have cannot overcome the resistance created by the other pump ,
    it will be beaten down into submission ... and water will flow the opposite direction ...

    lets discuss the heat ...i am not satisfied that is correct .
    This post was edited by an admin on December 10, 2013 8:20 PM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:57 AM
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    Feet of Head

    That's the technical term used to refer to the RESISTANCE to flow that a circulator must overcome.

    There are different types of "head" depending upon the type of system - open or closed.

    In an OPEN system, such as a potable water faucet 3 stories up, the pump must overcome the STATIC head of lifting the water upward against the force of gravity. For every psi ( pound per square inch) that the pump supplies, the water will be lifted 2.31feet. This is where the term feet of head comes from. However, in an open loop, the pump also has to overcome whatever resistance the piping offers. This is called FRICTION head aka HYDRAULIC RESISTANCE. Both of these factors must added together to calculate the TOTAL or DYNAMIC head. STATIC head + FRICTION head = TOTAL or DYNAMIC head.

    In a CLOSED loop, like your hydronic system, there is no STATIC head to overcome since what goes up is canceled out by what comes down. It's like a Ferris wheel. Think of forming a clear house into a U shape that's 5 feet high on both sides. Now, pour water into one side and it will settle at an equal height on the other side. If you have 4 feet of water on one side, you'll have 4 feet on the other. The static head is the same on both sides. This is the way it is in your hydronic system. The pump sees no STATIC head. It does however see the FRICTION head of the system which is the resistance to flow that everything in the piping circuit produces. The height of the piping has nothing to do with this. The more flow ( gpm) that's forced through the piping, the higher that the FRICTION head will be. In a CLOSED loop system, there is only FRICTION head. Therefore, the FRICTION head is equal to the DYNAMIC or TOTAL head.

    When you look at a pump performance curve chart, you'll notice that it has feet of head on the left side ascending vertically and gpm on the bottom progressing horizontally. Through system design calculations, we determine how many feet of head the piping circuit has and how many gpm we need. We then go to the chart and determine which pump will best match our needs.

    It has nothing to do with how many floors of a structure are built above our circuit or our own little notion that we've always done it like this. It's all scientific facts.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Rich Rich @ 8:12 PM
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    The old elevation misconception

    rears it's ugly head once again .  Imagine that , I wish you could see me right now , this is my shocked face .  The following may be a bit technical but maybe you could print this out and transfer ownership of this post to this Genius .
      The following is the definition of head , Your heating guy is only one third right .
    Ready , We're off.   Fluid in a hydronic system contains both thermal and mechanical energy .Thermal energy content depends on temperature and specific heat , thermal energy is something that can be sensed , feel your pipes .  Hot water contains more thermal energy than colder return water .
      Now to the fun part . Head is the mechanical energy present in the same fluid which depends on 4 things , Pressure , density , elevation and velocity at some point in the system .  Pressure head is the mechanical energy because of pressure . Velocity head is the mechanical energy because of it's velocity . elevation head is the mechanical energy due to the height in the system . Total head is the sum of pressure , velocity , elevation heads .   The equation goes something like this .   Total head  equals the sum of these .   Ask your plumber or heating man than why 100' of 3/4" pex at 10 GPM with 180* fluid in it laying flat has a head of 47.56 feet but if the fluid was only 100* the head would be 53.38 feet head  .   You see height is only part of the equation .  2 different pipes with different temp fluid , different heads
    A circulator is a device that imparts the mechanical energy needed to drive the fluid at a certain velocity .  The colder the water the more dense it is requiring more energy to be added to overcome the energy lost through a portion of the system .  When pipes get larger they cut down the head feet also . 
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 10, 2013 8:51 PM.
  • Rich Rich @ 8:38 PM
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    How does

    that keep happening Weezbo?  Was me typing slow this time .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 8:42 PM
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    i liken it to Froggy fingers

    mah typing skills are like dreadful. i hit a key , and mah finger stays stuck there and i have more vvv's than i thoughttttttt : ))

    i not to sure ...

    *~//: )

    basically , our effort in The Work give at least two ways to say the same thing that might be the best part of it ,

    We are probably not quite as put off by the deal as Iron man that poor guy lol...i KNOW exactly what he is saying : )))

    he would have fired that guy ten times by lunch time and still tried to get thru to him...

    *~//: )
    This post was edited by an admin on December 10, 2013 8:56 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 4:11 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    the Alpine rep came with 2 plumbers, one a supervisor, and said everything is functioning in the burner the way it is supposed to and the start up test went fine, but that the hot water can not be made fast enough.  They all said they have never seen this problem before, and called HTP and confirmed everything is right with the HTP, so they are discussing what to do.  They agree something is wrong.  We ran out of hot water in 6.5 minutes.  Alpine rep said it is possible we need to get a 105 Alpine instead of the 80 and it is a tight fit, but they would discuss it and call us back.  but then he also said that there would not be much of a difference with the 105, and the 150 is too big.  The Alpine rep also said that the 007 was plenty fine, and I pointed out that the manual said otherwise, and he said that was not the problem.  I am not winning the argument of needing a new pump and reversing the pipes on the bottom of the HTP.  They keep shutting those ideas down.  I have shown them the chart as well.  They said our water pressue is very high and this is unusual.  I will wait until they call us to see if they will be swaping out our burner, and if they are not doing that, then it's time for the town inspector and national grid to get involved.  They are very apologetic and promise that they will get it resolved.  they have reversed the piping on the HTP, the piping on the burner, and the zones at the initial install, and they are aware we aren't going to let this go on much longer.  they seem to think that this is a highly unusua problem.  Alpine rep did say the heat is normal, and just confirmed to not set back more than 3 to 5 degrees ever, but no one could explain why we ran out of hot water while washing dishes in the kitchen sink.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 4:40 PM
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    say ,baseboard heating ,
    when you say they changed the lines , the new plumbers ?
    When you said the heating was changed , the new plumbers?
    When you said the heating was Fine and everything is right ?
    You ran out of Hot water in 6.5 mins so they told you something is wrong?

    did the new plumbbers install any temp gauges on the supply and return of the boiler , HTP and the supply and return headers on the section after the secondary circ ,and on the individual zones returns?

    *~//: )
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 5:09 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    I wouldn't call them new plumbers.  it was the same company who changed the piping, just some new plumbers came that time with the original ones who installed it.  today there were 2 new plumbers from the same company with the Alpine rep, but I am not aware of them installing anything today, and if they did, they did not make us aware of that.  I don't think they did any work today other that testing it out and checking the bath tub water, and they just concluded that everything is functioning the way it is supposed to, so they are not sure why the hot water is running out
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 5:22 PM
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    a couple of gauges and a technician should be able to pin pioint the issue

    I just dont get why they are so opposed to changing the pump. I'm sure the HTP rep will have them change the pump and reverse the piping.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 6:47 PM
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    check these out ....

    *~//: )
    and Keller new style digital readout pressure differential gauges ....:)
  • Rich Rich @ 8:54 PM
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    Please Read

    First off , I have  a question .  Was the Burnham rep from the distributor or does he represent Burnham and work for Burnham ?
     Second question would be Why in several different illustrated depictions in the Alpine manual do they show the indirect piped off of the boiler piping like we do with so many mod cons ? Third question is why would Burnham recommend the Taco 0014 w/o flo chek for an install using their Alliance indirect that requires less GPM than we have discussed here with only slightly higher head (9.5') , They list the Total head for Alpine , Alliance SL & piping loop head loss at 19.3' Head . This can be found on page 65 of your Alpine manual . Oddly enough there also happens to be  Burnhams equivalent length of copper fittings and sweat valves so one could figure equivalent pipe length for installed fittings and pipe can be figured . Maybe these installers never read that far into the book or maybe they just look at pictures and put in a pump where there is a pump and other devices where they are depicted never worrying about head , Cv , pipe size , pressures . That would be my guess . Too bad they didn't know sites like this existed and maybe they should log on and ask some questions .
      Baseboard , maybe you should  ask them these uncomfortable questions and demand an intelligent response from someone involved with this farcical installation . Make them explain how the mnual that came with this boiler could be wrong  Maybe have your husband ask since they seem to think you should not be involved and talk with him in your absence so he may keep you from pursuing the truth .
    Just looked at pictures again and according to Burnhams charts on page 56 of your manual the installed piping is a Total equivalent length of around 144.5 feet of 1" type M , This takes into account 10 90's , 3 branch flow tees , 3 ball valves ( look like standard port ) , Flow check valve ( typical) and 40 feet of pipe , plus the equivalent length of the HX in Super Stor (46.5') . Total equivalent length is around 191' of Type M copper .  Is this feasible ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 11, 2013 9:47 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:33 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I'm not sure where the Burnham rep came from....he was just called an Alpine rep to us, and he was the one who also stated that the 007 was fine.  My husband has been invovled as well.  He called to complain last night.  We have had 12 visits from them and he asked to let the owner know.  They said it is a publicly owned company so they could just let the managers and supervisors know.  I'm thinking they should re-measure all of our baseboard and see if they made an error there as well.  We were told the 80 was plenty big, now the rep said it was a tight fit, and we let them know before we purchased it that we have a 700 square foot room that only has a gas fire place for heat, and that we may eventually want to add baseboard in that room, so we wanted to make sure we got a big enough burner, and again, they said the 80 was sufficient.  sounds like that may be very wrong.  Rich I can print out what you said and ask them when they come again as I don't know the answers to those questions.Is there a way for me to tell if the 80 is too small?  We did have a biger burner before this.  I'm not sure of the size, but yesterday they said our old Burnham was bigger,
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:31 AM
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    Boiler Size

    How many square feet is your house? What's the age? If it's old, have there been upgrades to the insulation, windows, etc? Would you consider it to be leaky, average or tight?
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Harper111 Harper111 @ 11:07 AM
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    It is a good boiler

    It is fine equipment and a fine company. The support team from the manufacturer is excellent. Good luck getting the pump issue squared away.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 11:35 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    the house is about 2600 sq ft, but 700 sq ft are not in the heat zones, and is just heated by a gas fireplace.  the first floor was built in 1950, and the 2nd floor about 1998.  I think the windows have been upgraded, but not super recently.  I don't know about the insalation.  I would say 1998 for the 2nd floor since that is when it was built, but now sure about the 1st.  there is insalation in the basement ceiling, and in the attick 9 inches of it.  It seems a bit leaky, but that may be because the front door looks to be original and could be replaced.  kitchen redone in 2011, dining room built later on as well, and the 700 sq ft room built in 2004. 
  • Ironman Ironman @ 12:51 PM
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    Heat Loss vs Boiler Size

    Using the info that you provided tells me that your boiler can cover a heat loss of up to 34 btu's per square foot, not including the 700 sf. addition. If we add that, the boiler will handle a heat loss of 27 btu's per sf.

    An average house with your description would probably need 25-30 btu's per sf. Disclaimer: That's not scientific, just a rough estimate from someone who's been doing heat loss calculations for about 35 years and knows where the numbers typically fall. A detailed heat loss calculation is the only way to know for sure.

    Now, what that means is that your boiler is sized correctly even with the addition included. Going with a 105k btu would have been too much.

    Also, jumping up to the 105k would only add another 3/4 gpm output to what you have now for domestic.

    I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but the facts remain the same and, therefore, there's no need to look elsewhere: the three issues that need to be addressed are:

    1. Size the circulator properly. The 007 can only move about 2 gpm based on the head loss info provided; the 008 will give you 7.3 gpm - that's over 3 1/2 times as much. If someone can see the difference in that, I can't help them. You need to stop letting them simply declare that the 007 is right because they say so and make them run the numbers scientifically.
    2. Pipe the indirect properly. It does make a difference that supply and return are reversed as this will cause the coil not to have the maximum heat transfer it's rated for. It won't see the maximum temperature difference (delta T) all the way across the coil the way it is now. The greater the delta T, the greater the heat transfer.
    3. Slow down the fill rate of your faucets. Either throttle the valves or install energy saver faucets. If you keep letting 5+ gpm out of the faucets, your gonna run out of hot in half the time that you would at 2.5 gpm. Just start filling the tub earlier at a slower rate. The same goes for the sink. An old one is very capable of dumping 5 gpm. There's no need for that: slow it down.

    One additional thing will help that also been mentioned: set the aquastat on the indirect to at least 140-150* and set the mixing valve to 120* going to the faucets. This, in effect, increases the size of the indirect by storing more heat energy and will also insure that any Legionella is killed.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on December 12, 2013 12:54 PM.
    Contact this user

    How about submitting

    Pics and questions to Siegenthaler. He has a whole library of problem solving examples like this. Can learn a lot even if it doesn't apply exactly to your app. The pics help special plumbers like
    Even tho you have everything you need here already from some great members. You have the hardest problem, how to get your contractor to do it.
    Time to climb the ladder higher, since those who tried still aren't getting it.
    I know my boiler is not as good as yours, and my 30 gal ssu being smaller, still puts out more tempered water.
    Tacos floproteam has great videos on explaining head and pump selection
    Contact this user

    Actual head calc

    Since we have the specs from alpine and HTP, could the HO input some measurements.

    For the HTP we need
    Total HL@ 10gpm of the ssu-45 + total HL of the HTP zone piping. ( from supply header connection to return header connection) = SSU-45 total HL @ 10gpm
    I'm not calculating the boiler or its pump HL assuming that part is correct for delta T of 20.
    If this isn't correct , experts please set me straight. So all we need are some exact #'s.

    For the 80 Alpine I see there is a wide range of HL specs depending on Delta T design, but at DT20 the ALP80 is 13' HL at 7gpm flow. Because there is not a full primary loop here and assuming all other zones shut down in priority mode we actually have two pumps in series feeding the SSU-45. Both the 0015 boiler pump and the 007F5. I'd have to go back and check but how does this effect flow with this near boiler piping? Will the 0015 boiler pump push past the 007 or just circuit the close tees? And if that's the case is the 0015 to much pump for the boiler?
    I hope I'm not getting off track.
    0015 msfs curve chart

    Page 33 of the alpine manual has the ALP80 flow charts,HL and DT. Unfortunately I can't post just that one page or chart. Maybe someone could help with posting both tank and boiler charts if possible. Take any guessing out of the equation hopefully. I'm guessing the HO is definately getting their learn on....
    This post was edited by an admin on December 12, 2013 1:13 PM.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 2:12 PM
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    no , i think , you are right on track there..

    if it is series piped circ it adds if it is tie the water in knots it detracts.
    me save you heavy explanation , [ tie a knot in the water ] is a trick used to build dams in raging rivers , with water from that very river itself .
    This post was edited by an admin on December 12, 2013 2:21 PM.
  • Pughie Pughie @ 3:26 PM
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    For what it's worth

    I'm loving this thread, and for what it's worth. (Bare with me not to good at this computer stuff).
    Since "Siggy's" name came up - I threw in some figures in my handy dandy
    Sigenthaler Hydronic Design Studio II program.
    Using the Equilivant Length Calculator and 1" Copper pipe at a flow rate of 10 GPM and 7.9 Ft of Head the SSU-45 represents an equilivant length of 175.3' of 1" copper
    After carefully studing the photos and counting the fittings and valves etc. and allowing 200' of 1" copper for the SSU and 11/4" for the "near boiler piping and using the Hydronic Circuit Simulator the following pump results are given for the indirect storage tank piping circuit.
    Taco 007 -  7.43 GPM
    Taco 008 -  8.29 GPM
    Taco 0010 - Low flow condition not reccomended, consult factory
    Taco 0013 - 13.47 GPM
    Taco 0014 -10.8 GPM
    Grundfos UP 1558 speed 3 - 8.71 GPM
    Grundfos  UP 2699F  11.53 GPM
    Since upsizing the existing boiler is being considered perhaps this should be considered with regard to circulator selection .
    Hope this may help. There are some very  smart experienced men here who are eager to help, I've been very impressed with there knowledge and willingness to help solve these problems with this and all other problems that come here.
    John Pughe                                                                           
  • Pughie Pughie @ 3:27 PM
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    For what it's worth

    I'm loving this thread, and for what it's worth. (Bare with me not to good at this computer stuff).
    Since "Siggy's" name came up - I threw in some figures in my handy dandy
    Sigenthaler Hydronic Design Studio II program.
    Using the Equilivant Length Calculator and 1" Copper pipe at a flow rate of 10 GPM and 7.9 Ft of Head the SSU-45 represents an equilivant length of 175.3' of 1" copper
    After carefully studing the photos and counting the fittings and valves etc. and allowing 200' of 1" copper for the SSU and 11/4" for the "near boiler piping and using the Hydronic Circuit Simulator the following pump results are given for the indirect storage tank piping circuit.
    Taco 007 -  7.43 GPM
    Taco 008 -  8.29 GPM
    Taco 0010 - Low flow condition not reccomended, consult factory
    Taco 0013 - 13.47 GPM
    Taco 0014 -10.8 GPM
    Grundfos UP 1558 speed 3 - 8.71 GPM
    Grundfos  UP 2699F  11.53 GPM
    Since upsizing the existing boiler is being considered perhaps this should be considered with regard to circulator selection .
    Hope this may help. There are some very  smart experienced men here who are eager to help, I've been very impressed with there knowledge and willingness to help solve these problems with this and all other problems that come here.
    John Pughe                                                                           
  • Rich Rich @ 3:35 PM
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    Please read and give thoughts .  I spoke with HTP tech this morning and explained the situation and got their recommendations for flow and head loss .
         As per the Burnham manual .  Page 56 .
    Do we all agree that the valves in the pix are standard port as opposed to full port ? Standard port = 12' TEL    Full port =  5.7 ' TEL
    This is certainly not a swing check valve , Correct ?   If it were it would equal 4.5 ' of pipe , since it is a typical flo check though it has as much resistance as 54' of pipe .
    3 sideport tees totaling 13.5 equivalent feet
    10 90* fittings totaling 25' equivalent and roughly 40 feet of 1" type M copper .

    If my math is correct we have a circuit that is 144 feet in equivalent length plus the actual HX @ 9.1 feet head  .  The heat lost from that length of run is roughly 8*F uninsulated .
       HTP states that at 7.3 GPM installed in this circuit that the head for this HX is 9.1 Ft Hd .  They also state that in fact the supply should be in the top port of the HX as we all know unlike the installer that counter flow is best practice . Burnham has depicted in several install illustrations that a DHW loop right off of the boiler loop is GOOD. 
       Boiler temp for domestic should be 188*F minimum ,  pump should be Taco 0011 or equal (8.94gpm @ 23.97 Ft/hd), Supply & Return should be reversed for indirect , Pipe circuit to indirect should be insulated , water in storage should be 150*-160* with mixing valve set at 115* -120* .   I personally would bite the bullet as the installer and cut and cap the installed lines and move their origin to the boiler loop and use the 0014 as per their recommendation on page 65 (manual) and be done with it . What we have here is an installer that is not willing to make good and learn something in the process .  We all had these types of mistakes at some point . I would hope that as I did we made the customer whole , ate the cost and called it Tuition as our esteemed host says .
     Please give your thoughts on the above recommendations so this family can get some closure . Baseboard heat help , please look in the find a contractor section of this site to see if there is indeed someone local to you .
      Also please don't take my word for it , call HTP and inquire . 508 - 763-8071, customer support , they are local and may just surprise you and send someone to see this . Burnham is in Pa , I highly doubt the man at your house was employed by anyone other than your contractors distributor . If he is in fact employed by Burnham he should be made to take a class on integrity .   
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 12, 2013 3:38 PM.
  • Pughie Pughie @ 5:09 PM
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    Supporting Rich

    I couldn't agree with your figures more in your latest post and earlier ones also. I only threw in my 2 cents in support of you and others in regard to proper circulator sizing for this job.
    We can all agree that not enough BTU's is being transfered to the indirect, using the most important formula in all of hydronics BTU's = GPMx500xDeltaT proves that by increasing flow results in more BTU's being directed to DHW production. If they would ony follow all the worthy points you listed this issue would be resolved.
    The only issue I might respectfully debate with you is the circulator  "Iso" flanges look like Webstones to me, they list those as full port in their catalog. Small potatoes I know.

    John Pughe
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:07 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so here is the latest and of the higher ups just called and said they want to come back next week and install a brand new Alpine, but up it from the 80 to the 105, and also install a 45 gallon reserve hot water tank.  Does this sound like a good solution?  or does it sound like  they are extremely confused?  can anyone tell me what pump should go with the 105 because I think we all know they are going to come with the 007 no matter what.  they seem to love it
  • Ironman Ironman @ 6:34 PM
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    Check my last post

    It makes no sense to go to a 105k boiler. You'll only get another 3/4 gpm domestic and the boiler will be over-sized for space heating - not a good thing.

    It seems like you got someone's attention that's wants to make it right which good, but putting all new equipment in without addressing what's really wrong is just like getting a larger gun but not knowing where to aim it.

    The company and you would be much better off just listening to the professional advice given here than their shotgun approach to this.

    The reverse indirect may be higher capacity, but if the train carrying the btu's ( 007 and piping) can't get to the depot any faster than before, it makes no difference how much bigger the new depot is.

    I would suggest that you request of them to call HTP's engineering department and let them determine what needs to be done rather than trying to fix it with the "Bigger is better" approach.

    Kinda strange isn't it: they're willing to spend thousands of $$ on bigger equipment rather than a few hundred on a circ and correct piping? What did Ben Franklin say? "Penny wise, but pound foolish."
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:53 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    they told us that they talked with HTP to come to this conclusion.    they just don't think that the pump or the reverse piping on the HTP bottom makes a difference.  we have tried to tell them numerous times now, but they are offering a new boiler before a new pump.  They keep telling us that our water pressure is extremely high and that
    this is unique, and this is why some of the problems are happening.  I think this is why they want us to have the reserve tank.  Does a 45 gallon reserve tank sound too much, because it sounds huge to me.  we will call them back tomorrow and ask if they have new calcultions as to why they think it now needs a 105.  they never re-measured our baseboard, so it doesn't sound like they have any new numbers to go off of.  is the 105 and reserve tank going to cost us a lot more in a monthly bill?  I know it's not a good thing to oversize.  this whole process has been very strange. 
  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:31 PM
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    I can't believe...

    That someone in HTP's engineering told them that.

    If your incoming water pressure is so high, why don't they install a Pressure Reducing Valve? No one with any real knowledge of hydronics would say to install a larger boiler and indirect when something as simple as installing a PRV would solve the problem.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:50 PM
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    What is your incoming water pressure? Did they put a gauge on it or is this just more of their wild guessing?
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 7:52 PM
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    I'm just a regular Joe, but how in the world can 'high' water pressure in the supply line have anything to do with this?  Surely there is a pressure reducing valve already installed or they would be blowing the pressure relief valve, right?
    If they were talking about inadequate gas pressure there might be something there.

    These poor people.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 8:32 PM
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    Forget that...

    They are probably talking about the high pressure/gpm  going through the indirect outstripping the capacity of it to keep up and recover.

    Should be easy enough to test by opening faucet in tub halfway and start filling buckets again.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 7:38 PM
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    so , can we discuss the heat now?

    i really like system side as well as supply side ,

    and after that maybe we can talk Plumbing and potable .

    to me we are beating a dead horse with this , if nothing else at least you have a gauge and an anti- scald devise that now indicates the temp going out and increased the tempered hot water .


    Let me be the devils advocate for a moment , i do that so the homeowners can more easily get the grip on what we are saying,

    let us start with parallel primary , that i sort of think i mentioned earlier and no one stepped up and said Well , how do you think that is parallel primary exactly.
    The boiler comes equipped with Domestic Priority over ride that shuts down the heating side so it is in effect a parallel primary.

    where upon i would like to discuss that a little bit deeper , more along the lines of 1.dummy mixers ,
    2.what i call flow reversal in what looks like primary secondary or
    3. Rangeability mixing where i may reverse flow in two closely spaced T's to lower water temps or step down mixes..

    and how the condition can come about in "The Wild" lol..

    remember that the closely spaced Ts can indeed mix in either direction based upon a number of factors one being say intermittent pumping control....and while these "Work" it depends on what is it that you are out to accomplish specifically . do you want to lower the temps and mix them or do you want the coldest temps comming back to the heat source or the hottest temp going out to the field as in the caase of parallel primary With DPO .
    for an example...
    This post was edited by an admin on December 12, 2013 8:41 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:27 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I do not know the water pressure.  I hope they tested this and did not just say it because of the 5 gallon bucket test that I did for them.  they really don't understand why it's not working properly.  the alpine rep said the alpine is set up right, and the htp is set up right, but they do not know why the hot water is not heating up fast enough, and they are telling us that this is why we are running out.  they never solved the problem as to why this was happening, but the alpine rep hinted that the boiler is a tight fit.  they didn't give us any numbers, so we will call them back tomorrow to see if they re-measured anything, and why they think the 105 would solve the problem.  as far as the heat goes, it seems to be working, and it is an adjustment for us to have to get used to the fact that it is a lot slower than our old oil Burnham.  we have been leaving it at one temp all day, and turning back maybe 3 to 4 degrees at night.  I am curious to see what the new gas bill will be like with this because we were used to turning it way down when we left or at night with the oil burner.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:38 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    and to be more specific about the heat, it went up 3 degrees in 1 hour this morning.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 8:57 PM
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    ok ....

    This morning .... Before or after the thermostat was satisfied ?
    before or after there was hot water useage?

    here is a quote ."

    you might like
    it introduces a unique perspective and term.

    Ptolemy advocated paying special attention to any planet "when it may be oriental, swift and direct in its proper course and motion – for it has then its greatest power."

    he was referring to the perigee of the moon ... : )

    the term is basically , "Swift and direct"...

    say in contrast to an Indirect hot water maker that does not seem terribly swooft at this time.
    This post was edited by an admin on December 12, 2013 9:23 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:39 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    My husband turned the heat up 5 degrees, took a 10 minute shower with a low flow shower head, and an hour later, the heat had risen 3 degrees.  it did not reach what he set it at within that hour.  is this still too slow?
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 9:55 PM
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    your heating system does have its own definition of comfortable

    quite unlike the inhabitants of your home.

    When the sun rises in the morning in three hours my home gets warmer too...
    Because of solar gain.

    solar heat is a form of radiant heat as it radiates down upon us things become warmer... base board work predominantly off the convective side of heating in that it radiates some heat and air currents are formed within the area then the heat is carried about on all manner of "Wind formations" .. in thirty below zero i expect to see about a 3 degree change in room temp in 7 mins for base board. forced air about the exact opposite . on radiant may rise one degree an hour to perhaps 3 degrees because it is conducting heat to thermal mass rather than being carried about on convective currents , or blown about by forced air fans .
  • Rich Rich @ 9:54 PM
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    has discovered also that the little 007 is taking on the task of the boiler pump also . On a call for DHW the control is shutting down the boiler pump and that poor 007 is trying to move all water required through the boiler and DHW and ALL THAT PIPE . That's why they (Burnham) recommend the 0014 for DHW pump for Alpine , Indirect (alliance , same head and GPM we have determined) and associated piping (from boiler loop) .  Now I'll get even crazy , I'd be willing to bet that the other little 007 given the task of putting enough water through the baseboard is also nowhere near large enough to do that job either . 
       If the system was to stay as it is now , not even the 0011 would properly do the DHW , you would require a 0013 and I'd also bet that a 008 VDT would fix the heating side problem also .  What say you Gentlemen ?  
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:02 PM
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    yes Rich , Just what if ?

    just how much ummmph is the 07 producing is huge ... Temp is definitely apart of the equation too ...
    for i have some really really low flow on massive slabs , that heat almost as fast as this baseboard...

    the temperature requires it to be "Ramped" and once the btus are moving i can use circulation within sections to moderate other areas , insulation being a definite factor as well as infiltration not only the capacitance of the higher temp areas.

    . .. ... .... ..... everyone counts , that is why it pays to wander off the wall as our Host, Dan , says .
    Some times the old becomes the new ... just a couple weeks ago everyone was having a PONCP discussion and that is relevant , possibly , here in a very large way.

    because it could just be the things may not be quite what they seem ..
    and i too would like to learn how to improve my skill set . It is not like this lash up couldn't be right i just think in my mind that the possibility does exist that there may be some neglected aspect that we may not have been able to focus upon entirely ...
    *~//: )
    This post was edited by an admin on December 12, 2013 11:25 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:02 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    it was about 25 degrees out today.  so are you saying that my baseboard with the Alpine should be heating 3 degrees in 7 minutes?  or did I misunderstan.  I would say that is what is used to do on the oil burner, but we only tested that in September when it was quite warm out
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 10:35 PM
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    did you reckon that ...

    balancing this heating might be made easier with a few well dispersed temp gauges and maybe a watch ?
    because that is what it sounds like you just said to me.
    if i have the most sophisticated form of myopia,
    i'd say that is what you mean.
    now if the idea that a boiler sized to the heat loss and is able to meet the heat loss does not heat your home then we may have to look a little deeper,
    i have real steady state temp control on some base board in a home and it is at a temp that i know, it is something that i only hinted at during some discussions here which you were not privileged to have had any inclination , where we helped change some numbers in the Burnham hand book on temp and base board.
    these discussions were more of an experience sharing than some lab test of 40 years ago or whatever.
    what that means is the Burnham representative would unlikely disregard something we were saying . off hand ...
    i share this with you because i would like to determine the amount of radiation / baseboard , in length that has silver "Fins" upon it in the entire home. because that was also of relevance in our discussion at that time.
    it will take some time with a yard stick and pencil and paper if you have that available ....
    *~//: )
    you can measure by approximation of length in a room by steps or cubits or common foot size or large one yard steps or smaller steps that is ok with me as long as you use some consistent form of measurement , and you can round UP in every room too because there is pipe and fittings that transfer the BTU's to the rooms and from that also emit or can emit heat ...
    some of what is being discussed also at the moment are things that may seem sort of different in the language we use however , it is also in regards to your heating system overall and what is going on ...
    what we are dicussing now might be described as some possibilities that due to our age we may have not been able to quite see straight in the pictures yet while points of conjecture can be possibly magically dispelled or brought to light thru open discussions ...
    *~//: )
    This post was edited by an admin on December 12, 2013 10:55 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 11:58 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so they are saying they did not do a heat loss calculation because we
    don't need one because we have baseboard, and they are not installing new heat in rooms.  we have 114ft of baseboard,
    which would be times 580 btu's they said, and would be 68400 btu's.  does this make
    sense?  should we not need a heat loss calculation?  they called it a
    connective load not a heat loss calculation.  they said they can put in
    the 105 and tune it down to be less so it won't short cycle.  the 80
    should be fine so I'm a bit confused.  they said our water pressure is
    82 psi and we dump 6 gallons per minute, and since we have a 35 gallon
    tub, they want to give us an extra 50 gallon storage tank and a 105 so
    that we are comfortable.  they did not put in a pressure valve because they did not want to change the water pressure for the whole house. 
  • Rich Rich @ 1:17 PM
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    Heat loss calculation

    would have told how many BTUh the home actually required . Missed opportunities abound on this project . They sized the boiler per the installed radiation whether it was correct or not . Could have determined if lower temps were feasible and maximized the efficiency of the boiler . This boiler will quite probably only operate at around 88-89% efficiency .
        The 80 is probably alright until you put baseboard in the 700 sq ft area with only a fireplace now .  I suspect that the space heating pump is also too small for the installed radiation . 
        The 105 may be beneficial when you heat the extra space you have but w/o a proper rom by room heat loss we don't know anything for sure .  You can increase the storage capacity of any storage type vessel by increasing the temp in the tank and mixing down . I cannot tell you how many indirects I have installed of similar size that are dependably serving families of 4+.  I would not install a second vessel without addressing the pump issue , all that will accomplish is to increase the head and make the pump perform even worse .  
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 3:56 PM
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    am back ! *~//: )

    ok Lets talk Plumbing.
    when we do our work we to use formulas to determine things such as fixture units developed lengths, pipe sizing, pressure ,vacuum,restrictions , volume , types of fluid, condensate , "bar"ometric pressure , just to name a few ...
    when we do our calculations , what we look for on the water side is similar to determining pipe size on the heating side ...
    where i live the muni has fluxuations in flow from time to time and temp, and pressure.
    for the most part we have 100 psi or more always available, though it can and often does go higher .
    we have service laterals meaning we have two pipes that enter our homes not one ,
    so we have "Latitude in up sizing to larger pipe should we need to without changing pipe size , we Can change pipe size on One lateral as well on the supply side one pipe size giving us even greater latitude and even higher fixture supply volume.
    this means then that we must regulate down the supply water pressure for most homes we have far more available pressure and volume than in large cities in the lower 48 states,
    right now we have adopted the led free double check and the lead free pressure water regulators ,

    .... most homes our pressure is regulated down to 50psi within the home ...
    so this brings us back to the proper pipe sizing calculations,
    being very important as the pipe size determines Volume ... because the Volume cannot be made to change the pressure can.
    when a pressure reducing valve allows more pressure by you can expect to see that at the most remote fixture or at the kitchen sink the easiest , does the water try to knock a glass of water from your hand at the kitchen sink? then the pressure is too HIGH .
    most of the new faucets have water savers and the bath tub /&or/showers have water savers and pressure balancers at them allowing for the valves to mostly be decreased on the cold water side to improve water delivery on the Hot.once again pipe sizing is part of the deal as developed length to the Hot water maker or water heater should be the most direct path from the source of water..

    .... i see no domestic hot water recirculator for immediate hot water availability at your fixtures .this has meaning on the financial comfort level of owning your home not just simply convenience.When they are not needed ? well, that is when the developed length of the pipe is under a specific length or the pipe is connected in home runs often to either a central location or the plumbing pipe is connected to small manifold "T's at each bath room and the developed length is less than a specific length on the "Trunk" or main Hot water that is sized to both volume and pressure for this particular layout in this particular home.
    so this means , not all prv's are created equal . and things are done for a reason .


    the prvs are adjustable .


    your prv may indeed need to BE turned down to 50 psi . i did not do the install nor do i have my all amazing seeing eye in close proximity to make the determination how much ...

    if you have many bathrooms 4 , 5 , 6 , and a few half baths with a hot tub swimming pool indoor Olympic wave generator ,...i might believe you could have pipe sized for the home that is atypical (Larger than 3/4" at 50 P.S.I.) ...

    this will allow for code requirements in a home with two bathrooms , one additional 3/4 bath and a half bath one laundry tub / an outside frost free hose bib ,kitchen sink and dishwasher and an ice maker for the fridge , in many cases the muni or city may allow additional fixtures to be added like another hose bib or hand sink with no fuss
    on doing another calculation and re sizing pipe etc..

    if you change the pressure on the prv you can test this with a lazy gauge at the laundry tub or outside hose bib , or at the cold water side of the washing machine box .

    a lazy gauge shows the pressure .

    so once again , a cheap 20$ gauge and a few turns of a screw or twists of a wrench ,

    might have solved your problem right there ... or at least given you some indication if what they are telling you is Gospel ...

    that Infra red gun , since i first bought one, has dropped to about a 1/5th of the price
    it is in the 20 $ range now.. it is a great homeowner tool..

    you can use it to make temperature determinations point it pull the trigger and the temp pops up on a screen .. Nice : )

    ok so now you are armed with some new things to think about , can you call the water department and ask them for the reason the water pressure might be that high in a home ? might be better to have them come deal with it ...
    Weezbo .

  • SWEI SWEI @ 1:29 PM
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    Burnham Alpine

    080 is the smallest model, with a minimum firing rate of 16k.  The 105 has a minimum firing rate of 21k.  Your installer is again demonstrating a lack of training and experience.  Do not upsize without a proper heat loss calculation.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 1:58 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok we will call them again now and demand a heat loss calc.  the manager I spoke to seemed to be confused when I asked if they performed one.  At this point, we are going to demand they pay for a consultant of our choice to come by with them since they clearly need some help. not sure how they will respond to this.  I can't learn how to do heating/plumbing anymore.  I demanded they put in a valve to slow down the water pressure and after much fighting, they have agreed to do that.  they said they will come with a Taco 010 pump with the 105 Alpine. 
  • Ironman Ironman @ 5:31 PM
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    It's gonna get worse

    Up-sizing to the 105k is only going to give you 3/4 gpm more domestic output. Does any one there know how to do simple math?

    As pointed out several times by multiple posts, the 010 is NOT the right circ. It looses all flow at 9 ft. of head; the indirect coil has that much head. With the piping and other components, your around 12 ft. of head. 010 circ = 0 flow with your indirect. Is there any one at this company that can read a pump curve?

    What part of MA are you in? There are several KNOWLEDGEABLE pros on here from MA who can do consulting. I'd recommend that you get one of them in before this contractor makes things worse instead of better. Maybe he could also help this contractor and the general public by getting them an education in hydronics.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:25 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    I believe they said we have 1/2 inch piping.  I can call the water department tomorrow and ask why the pressure is so high.  some of the other suggestions are hard for me to uderstand.  They are coming by tomorrow morning to do a heat loss calculation, but refuse to pay a 3rd party to come.  we are in Middlesex county.  we are not comfortable with them installing anything new, that is unless they show us some numbers from this heat loss calc and re-measure everything to prove that the 80 they sold us is wrong.  we are not excepting their answer that the 105 has more btu's and will give extra umph to the heat.  that sounds so uneducated.  better business bureau will be hearing from us about this.  when I said the 010 Taco pump, they were planning on brinigng this if they installed the 105 alpine, not the 80,  they still don't think the 007 is wrong for the 80.  tonight they have said that if it makes us feel better they will switch the pump first before installing the 105, but that it won't fix the problem.  they finally agreed to switch the piping at the bottom of the HTP and have it reversed.  so, I have seen some answers say the Taco 008 pump and most recently the 013 pump.  which shall I push for now? also, is there any type of chart of checklist I can have them fill out and give to us for the heat loss calculation?  they all seemed like they have never heard of this before, so we are nervous that the do not really know what it is.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 8:10 PM
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    The 007 may not be wrong

    but it also may be.  HTP has not been able to provide me with head loss curves for the SSU (despite several emails and phone calls over the past ten days.) 
  • Rich Rich @ 9:33 PM
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    some bad practice here huh ?  I spoke with Jason at HTP yesterday and explained exactly what we are dealing with on this one . In this particular installation we require a 0011 for the DHW , that could change if instead of discussing 105's and secondary tanks that will make the problem worse these guys would possibly read what we are saying to the homeowner .   Does moving the DHW piping inside the boiler loop and using the 0014 as Burnham recommends on page 65 0f the manual ?  I also believe that this system has pumping problems on the space heating side also and believe that a 00 VDT would correct that too . Can't speak to 008 ,0012 , 0013 because all I know is that there is 114 feet of installed radiation and possibly more in the future .  Could you agree that the fix may be as simple as these couple items ? Hell , at this point they could leave it piped as is and change the DHW pump to the 0011 and the heating pump to VDT and have it whipped . Storage temp in indirect at 160* and boiler making max for DHW. Not sure reset is even an option in this house , of course just guessing because no room by room was done .I don't understand why they did not just stay Burham and install the Alliance Sl  IWH or just use an HTP boiler , hell the Versa Hydro was made for this job , Pioneer with this IWH would have been stellar
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Rich Rich @ 9:45 PM
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    do you have prints for this house ? how about a floor plan ?  Do you know the insulation R values in the exterior walls and ceilings to any space without heat above ?  What contractor performed this work ,   Sorry again for your dilemma .  It took us awhile to pinpoint all the mistakes from afar .  I will e mail you recommendations to hand to these gentlemen when they come if you are comfortable with that . Maybe the others would like to contribute to this final analysis so you can just hand it to them and enjoy Christmas and put this nonsense behind you .  If needed I do know of a few very talented guys up your way also .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:34 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I would love an emailed analysis to give to them. I do not have floor plans or prints, but I could take measurements if that helps.  this is a 2 story 3 bed 2 bath house.  I do not know the insulation R values in the exterior walls and ceilings to any space without heat above.  was this something they should have told me, or is there a way for me to find out?  what should I be making sure they get tomorrow morning in the heat loss calculation?  I can post the results of that tomorrow, but it didn't sound like they knew what one even was.  we used a large company based right outside of Boston.  we heard they were good with steam...but they are definitly not good with baseboard
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 11:04 PM
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    your getting a lot of good advice but...

    at this point before they go any further and make a bad situation worse you need a competent consultant on site to properly assess the system. We cant responsibly do a heat loss calc from here. Also you will need a documented assessment of your system.
    It really is not complicated most guys here can do it in there sleep.
    Basic rulees of a proper boiler replacement are
    1 Heat loss calculation
    2 System design
    3 Equipment selection
    4 Proposal
    5 Contract
    6 Install

    If you dont start with a load calc you can't accurately design and spec equipment.
    This post was edited by an admin on December 14, 2013 7:15 AM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 12:59 AM
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    Correct head loss and pump size

    The following is taken right from HTP's manual for the SuperStore, page 13, table seven. The table gives the head loss for the indirect, piping and fittings as described under G below. It does not include a flow check which would add another 2-4 ft of head. I added 3 ft. for it bringing the total head loss to 14.7 ft of head. I only copied the part of the table that matched your situation: 7 gpm, 11.77 ft. of head. The 7 gpm matches the output of you boiler at a 20* delta T which is the standard delta T.

    I then ran it through Taco's pump sizing app. After adding the extra 3ft of head for the flow check for a total of 14.77 ft. of head, it calculated that a 009 was the correct size circ. See the attachment for the automatic calculation. Please note also that both the 007 & the 010 are not capable of any significant flow at this head; it's a no flow situation for both! If the flow check were removed from the equation, then a 008 would be the correct circ.

    These are HTP and Taco's numbers.

    The boiler circulator flow rate must meet the requirements found in Figure 1 or the published ratings cannot be achieved. The flow chart below represents the pipe run, water heater, and heat exchanger ONLY and does not include any flow checks, zone valves, or friction loss through the boiler. That resistance must be added to the value found in the chart below.

    7 GPM
    11.77 ft.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 10:01 AM
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    HTP's numbers

    Are unnecessarily confusing and do not tell the whole story.

    The boiler circulator flow rate must meet the requirements found in Figure 1 or the published ratings cannot be achieved.

    Figure 1 recommends a flow of 10 GPM for the SSU-45 and -60, which carries 141k or 171k BTU/hr of 180ºF boiler water.  Translation: 10 GPM will carry at least 171k, so they are assuming a minimum of 34.2ºF ∆T.  However, it will also carry 141k, so the indirect should also perform with a 28.2ºF ∆T.

    The "chart below" (aka Table 7) shows 11.1 feet of head for that 10 GPM flow with 30' of 1" pipe.  It then shows 11.77 feet of head at 7 GPM, which I believe applies to the SSU-20 and -30 from Figure 1.  It can't apply to the SSU-45 and -60 if they have lower resistance at 10 GPM.
    Contact this user

    Forgetting some pipe in the calc?

    The contractors equipment mix had me puzzled from the start as well. I like what Rich is trying to note from page 65 of the manual. I do think its is as easy as Rich posted. Truly when you have no clue these are the classic symptoms. "When in doubt go bigger", " the last boiler plate rating was that big". There were 007's in there before and they pump 30 GPM on this here chart."
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:45 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so someone came by to take measurements of the rooms, ceilings and look at insulation in our attic and basement this morning.  he is then sending the numbers to a 3rd party to have a heat loss calculation done.  I guess they do not crunch the numbers themselves, so we have to wait a few days for the result.  it is cold out today...10 degrees, and the heat is slow, about 30 or more minutes to go up a degree.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 1:52 PM
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    That is beautiful, baseboard heat...

    here is why ,
    they are taking measurements .
    and you are taking observations

    so when we walk into a ten by ten room,
    with 10 feet of base board,
    and a boiler and a circ ,
    and see some gauges,
    and have a watch ,
    and have a means of determining the room temp from a known temp at the same point within a room,
    and knowing the transfer rate of a pump in gpm,
    and knowing the heating emitter output ,
    and knowing the out door temp,

    we can begin to know where to look for the variables ....

    one of the first is we can determine direction of flow.

    or if there is flow or if the appliance is producing heat .
  • Rich Rich @ 3:52 PM
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    think I should add some gauges in the remedies so these gents can see how a system reacts and how temps , flows and pressures change within a system ?
    Maybe a well planned trip to Cranston for Barba's Advanced soup to variable speed nuts course would be a great help to these guys .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 14, 2013 3:53 PM.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 10:11 PM
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    Absolutely .

    if you come into a boiler room that was not doing this, and not doing that, where are you going to start.?


    i am warming a strap on gauge on my by pass and am considering mailing one to the lady as a Christmas gift from the North Pole , with a deed to a square inch of land for her as a something to remember the year when santa sent her a gift...


    Knotgrumpy , suggested an infra red heat gun like the ones we enjoy . would be an easy and inexpensive means for her to verify some things a week ago ...
    or more.
    at 20$ your price at a big box store , it seems quicker and easier ....however , with mailing it to her the next episode would be one where we could ask her to put the gauge on the supply pipe or return when.....

    and get the real idea of flow /Temp and what direction under specific conditions .

    .... that would speed up trouble shooting exponentially.
    i just solved three separate issues over the telephone involving radiant heating boilers and admin questions this last three hrs...

    and the last call offered to let me buy him lunch for helping him i have some Great friends : )))

    they always say things that are totally non-sequiter which seems to suit my sense of humor ....

    ... any service man can determine the flow , or the pump's functioning the mixing and boiler's out going and incoming temps and make quick conjectures as to what next to look for as he goes down a check list . : zone valve operations , sensor operations ,control operations, transformer operations ,all that good stuff.


    *~//: )
    i offered to lend him my pex thaw tool he declined as he made one after the last time i went out to help him work on some Dr's home ... however ,
    he called back ,....during my having just replying to you..

    right now , he is coming to get my purge pump/ transfer pump with the dirt cal from Caleffi lashed up to it ...

    This post was edited by an admin on December 14, 2013 10:22 PM.
  • Rich Rich @ 10:21 PM
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    I see that you are awake and just posted . Please have a look at the 3 possible solutions , I believe any one of them will work , and let us know what you think about them
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 10:29 PM
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    let me in there a moment...

    hand me that pipe cutter , lol..

    the temp gauge on the by pass reads 60 C or 140 F ...

    'think this is working properly....'

    the reason i am trying to get a glimmer on this temp reading info is so i can determine what is doing what ... i like to do that first because then the least invasive procedure can be obtained .. if we take to designing her system when we have seen perhaps only one of the problems and without having a clue other than a connective couple zones of base board seems too habby to end up redesigning the entirety piece by piece ..

    two zones 114 / 2 = 57 ' when divided in half ...

    so , now ... before we even touch the header and spin in two 6 foot lengths of 1 1/4 direct to the water maker ,with the cleanest straightest lowest friction machine formed offsets and bends , to female reducing adaptors .... lol

    knee knockers close coupled like that to the primary i would say insure max efficiency with DPO off a parallel primary .... and digital read outs for DT ,

    ...thing is what good does that do the installers if we know that and they might not?
    and when we make the heat plant function as zippy as that for hot water production,

    are there any other considerations ...?

    so , if we ask the question we basically already Know the answer ...

    Mark suggested a couple other minor technicalities Earlier on as well that i thought were more than reasonable and subtle /observation suggestions ...
    my little pinner dawg wants some munchies Brb...
    This post was edited by an admin on December 14, 2013 11:39 PM.
  • Rich Rich @ 1:03 PM
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    Grasping at Straws

    Maybe we can help choose which ones to grab .  Here are a couple ideas , all of which I believe will work . Please post any thoughts .
    From easiest to more involved .
    1.    Change existing DHW circ.(007) to 0011 (boiler-13.4' @ 20 Delta , tank-9.1' @ 20Delta , 144' x 1" pipe) , change existing space heating circ to 0013 VDT . Disable ODR , set boiler high limit to 190* , set aquastat on Tank to 160* w/ 10*diff. , set Taco mixer at 115-120* . Pipe Tank with supply into top port . Leave wiring as is
    2 .  Eliminate DHW circ altogether . Add Taco ZVC 403 and a third zone valve for DHW (1") , wire aquastat to zone 3 , set aquastat to 160* with a 10* diff., set Taco domestic mixing valve to 115-120* , make this zone Priority . Pipe tank with supply into top port .
     Install 0013 VDT to handle domestic and space heating . Disable ODR , if in fact it is in operation now , does not seem that reset is an option for this one due to poor performance at present , set boiler high limit to 190* . Change wiring accordingly .The system will operate at a respectable 85%+ and all will be good .
     3.   Cut and cap DHW loop from present location , move to inside of boiler loop  and pipe and pump as per page 64 and 65 notes and illustrations ,  keeping DHW loop as short as possible of course . Set boiler high limit at 190* , enable ODR , change space heating pump to 0013 VDT , possibly 008 VDT if piping for heating circuits allows ,  set tank temp at 160* and mixer at 115-120* . Pipe supply into top port of tank .
        Please check me on these options folks so we can offer her something to hand these fine gentlemen so they may make her whole .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 14, 2013 1:05 PM.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 2:30 AM
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    i can see you have looked thru ,..

    some options and considered many thinggs on the fly and have done some phone tag , pencil pushing , button pushing and numbers crunching and some leg work to run some things down as well....

    please dont take me wrong on this buh there are still some more things to be considering ,
    one is this , i have 4 rooms all the same with all some how absolutely = heat loss in every way , now , i have ONE zone on that entire floor ...

    so i start someplace , the North E. corner of the North wall.and wrap the entire outer perimeter of all outside walls with equal amounts of baseboard .

    the first two rooms are wrapped and the here is the consideration by the time i get to the end of this line of heating all the way back around to the N.E. corner ...and bang it to the boiler straight down , with 196 feet of baseboard 44 feet in every room ,
    how is this going to preform , .....
    lousey right . so i see it has a 007 in the boiler room yet i havent even seen this pipe done by my alter ego self just yet ...i am only looking at the boiler room ..

    so i start in going This thing is stupid it probably is a bad pump..
    so i will bring in my new one and that ought to make it is not ever going to go and the system still wont go with the new HV0012 lol...
    whatta peiec of crappola
    it has a considerable amount of base board on this circuit , not only that , the base board is seeing one temp on one end and one on the other now that we have two 26-99s in series lol..

    lets just say for now that this arrangement of circs was the "Correct one to move the frozen ice out of the pipe ...:)

    we have been looking at the boiler room with no information for weeks before we hit on well, time for me to look upstairs and leave this pOS running till i can get some "Recon" info with my tape measure ifr gun and some WD-40 because it is squeaking and popping and crackeling something fierce up there...

    OH my ! we got one loop! oh O !

    ok new senario same house same sorta deal except this time room one has 12 " room 2 has 14 room 3 16 room 4 20 ok
    62 feet of base board

    why did the guy have different lengths and still pump with too much base board on the loop?
    / zone ? this one the heat loss was lower , yah ok maybe...buh why so much discrepancy in each room?

    he is trying to make up for some other minor technicalities and it was a good thing you saw this before thinking maybe the return meant that the circ was having some problem with the impeller or something...

    now here comes joe home owner and says well now we have what seemed like even heat all the time until yesterday... no gauge no nada in the boiler room ,
    so you go back and think about that for a moment.....Hmmm.... that is different ...

    so now they say buh you know what ? the top floor is always a Hassle,
    too hot one time ,
    too cold the next ,
    and never can tell if the small sewing machine room is going to be ever seeing any heat ...
    it is piped something like the first example buh this time whoever piped that was a completely clueless guy he has 2 feet under a window in the sewing room and it is like the last piece of radiation on the return....he has just put base board wherever he thought seemed like a good idea when he was working on the place ...
    he has 12 feet in a closet and 30 feet in one room on the inside partitions and 14 feet on the outside wall in that one room alone ! no Wonder its all over the place and the folks been leaving the door open to see if they could get it to equalize out a bit as they said to you earlier over the phone lol...

    i know that you want to offer the guys some decent way to proceed with the parts and pieces and get them "Choose One!" at least you will have some GeeDee chance to get this thing right! lol;)

    er... oops ! lol..
    i get that ... i honestly do.

    i think adding more things right that are code every time , and provide us with more information rather than Hidden Discoveries cropping up that then in turn make us reconsider yet again , , first i was wondering about how This particular lash up was managing to Pull from both directions from the tank and considered well , maybe these guys busted their brain cell devising some specialized mixing and had invented a type of mixer using the controls,
    i could not speak to that straight out all i know is some how the pipe arrangement changed and suddenly things changed for the better apparently buh
    that was what i wanted to learn about the Rangeability of that particular arrangement and how it works on the control and how that functions on a call for heat and then differently on a call for DHW in a different manner ....where suddenly it throws off that particular advantage and transforms to act like a parallel primary ....

    that seemed like one heck of a Trick and i was looking to hear some feed back so i could understand that.
    i am going to search for an old post and it is having a picture of a zone valve on the return of a hydraulic separator mounted on unistrut up near the ceiling ...
    it is something 180 degrees out from this deal we are discussing ...we have a day or two .

    and it is about persistence in the search of excellence ...
    for now on another note the slant fin plate exchanger water generator has a 0011 on it with a 1/2" feed of potable water , seen any of them in your travels?

    This post was edited by an admin on December 15, 2013 5:47 AM.
  • RobG RobG @ 1:19 PM
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    An HVAC company cannot do a heat loss on their own! Did you get a copy of their findings on room size, insulation, etc.? If you can post that info here we can verify (approximately) the heat loss. Just to keep them honest.
    Please let us know.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 4:55 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we did ask if we could have a copy of the results/measurements, and he said he could not give us it and would have to ask his manager first, and that we could get a copy of the heat loss results when they come in in a few days.  once I get those results from that 3rd party they send it to, I will post it.  I know it's very cold out here today, but the heat is struggling to heat the house. 
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:53 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    the last 2 days, when we have turned on the faucet water, it has come out with a slight brown tint for a few seconds before getting clear.  this just happened now in the Kitchen on warm water, and yesterday on cool water.  is this related at all to the heating instalation, or a completely new and separate issue?  the timing is a bit odd, so I thought I would ask
  • Rich Rich @ 8:46 PM
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    Probably unrelated

    to this install .  If it was only on the hot water side it would be suspect but since both hot and cold have shown the same condition it is probably something other .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 1:46 AM
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    i stayed at it until i was passing out re reading old posts and never found it .:(
    it is among the very best of puzzles we ever had a chance to see .
    the base board heating in this home , might be about 60 ' long per loop .

    i don't find that particularly great.. while it is possible to get better or lower temps out of baseboard what i mean by over sizing the baseboard (Lengths) is relative to the room not the entire zone .

    a quote comes to mind , " wife of 40 not equal to two twenties."

    baseboard is like that , were there two zones with them each being 30 ' run off of manifold then even if 20 more feet were added or i should say shared on each zone equally i would consider that being able to deliver the btu's much more effectively at a lower supply temp .

    once again the extra would be relative to each room ...

    so if we knew what the supply and return water temps were then and what they are now that might have told us even more information .

    granted the numbers are only a snap shot in time .

    This new set of numbers on the test of the hot water and the brown tint ...
    ok well, if the house has a 1/2" main and the pressure went up that day because of a completely different issue involving the munis New Pumps selection ...
    which temporarily drove the house water pressure up because of older aub blow by ...normally the muni would be quickly notified and go Oh o! send someone down to the pump station and get them to dial it back we are getting nuisance calls about over pressure.
    for an example . the aub 75, is supposed to regulate the pressure , yet it may have been set at a lower supply ,... we know this could happen, although ,it may not have been exactly that ...
    we are not on that job so we cannot go over to the regulator and re set the pressure right quick . my thought is i'd dial it down to 50 Psi and check it first ...
    sudden higher pressures show up as aggressive abrasion within a line and preform a scouring of the pipe and fittings like erosion corrosion from way oversized circs moving air bubbles .

    which brings us back to your idea to give the guys coming tomorrow one some other options Choose One and go with it : )

    they seem on this new tangent though of getting a New and Improved Bigger Hammer ,...let me in there how bout handing me my 24" crescent yah the twenty pond

    when we work on increasing the system side efficiency we do ourselves a huge favor because that's one more person and their family that will have a better outlook in our community .
    i just burned and hour Rich discussing trv's and pressure differential and thermostatic by passes while typing this out.. avec a dash of outdoor reset
    and aluminum plates on the runouts to and from some panels .

    i hope these guys take the time to read what we have been saying , everyone including other homeowners chirped up to aid in the conversation ...

    there have been extraordinary replies that offered superlative real life experience and suggestions , technical ideas threaded around the theme that everything is within the realm of being approached by reason .

    i need my "all amazing seeing eye" to determine what is going on inside those pipes and unfortunately its in my old one ton ... so we had to go looking for what is wrong rather than what is right to find ways to suggest some solutions . :(

    i am sad for that.
    Contact this user

    Most important issue learned here

    Was what we learned about the installing contractor and the reps (actually salesmen) that came out. The responses given make it blatantly obvious they shouldn't be allowed to touch radiant. The most basic steps were skipped. Like the heat loss calc they should have done before turning in a quote. Back when I was learning I was lucky enuff to have one of the best salesmen helping me and our customers. Proper sizing and engineered plans were always used and started with. Mr. Rizzo was one of the top RPA guys for our district, a very outgoing helpful man. But this was exactly why we got more jobs and in many cases got much more money for the job. An informed customer was my best client, as they too understood why all these other parts and components were necessary for a properly functioning system. Mr. Rizzo made me look smarter than I was.....haha.
    This also weeded out a lot of the uber cheap customers that eventually turn out to be. Nightmares. And you also get the one that bleed you for info. It's ok cuz even with plans those would still get something wrong.
    I hope all is going better now
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  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:52 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    heat loss calc came in, and they said that we have enough baseboard in the house and that the 80 is sufficient.  we told them we will not let them put in the 105.  they are coming back tomorrow and reversing the piping that needs to be fixed at the bottom of the HTP, slowing down the water pressure with a valve, and putting in a new Tacor pump.  they are coming with the 0010 pump.  which pump at this point should we tell them to bring?  I know there has been some different suggestions posted...I have seen 1 reply saying that the 007 is right, a few said the 008, a 011, and  0010 prior based on the manual.  all we know is they finally agreed to remove the 007, so which one should we insist they put in.  they are saying HTP rep told them 010
  • Rich Rich @ 12:37 AM
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    For the Hot water should be a Taco 0011 . Boiler head = 13.4 ' @ 7.3 GPM (Burnham Manual) ,  Tank head (as per HTP being given the correct information by me) is 9.1' @ 7.3 GPM , Better yet , you can call HTP and give them the following information so you cannot be lied to by this contractor .  Call HTP , connect to technical and ask the following . " I have a system whose boiler has a head loss of 13.4 feet at 7.3 GPM , 144 total equivalent feet of 1" Type M copper and an SSU-45 indirect , what Taco circulator do I need ?"    HTP will give you a ticket number and you should ask for one , this will verify that you called and spoke with tech .
       As far as the heat loss goes , did you or can you receive the detailed results ?  Request them so we may help get your heat straightened out also .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:55 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok thank you.  I got the heat loss calc last night.  It basically has measurements for each room in th house.  it put the indoor temp at 70 dgerees, outdoor at 3, and system design hot water at 180. 1st floor heat loss at bth/hr is 31, 742, job total 45, 012.  2nd floor heat loss 13, 270, same job total.  baseboard for 1st floor in fine/line 30 (lin/ft) is 56.5 and 2nd floor is 23.5. floor factor .09 on 1st floor, 0 on 2nd floor. infiltration factor .018 on 2nd floor in all rooms, and on 1st floor same thing, except 2 rooms have a .012.  I have lots more numbers.  just let me know what else you need. 2nd floor ceiling factor .05.  I have exosed windows/doors per room as well.  I can post the results,  but it may be too small to see. let me know.
  • Rich Rich @ 8:22 AM
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    US Boiler Tech

    John from Tech at Burnham (US Boiler) just informed me that the boiler pump in fact does not have power interrupted on a call for DHW . I asked why the manual online shows that and piped off the boiler loop and he is looking into why an older manual is available online on the site . . That being said , now that all parties have been contacted and the proper information gotten to , if they switch the supply and return on the tank and change the 007 to a 0014 or 009 ( either will work , 0014 has a bit more head available) you should then be in fine shape .
    Are you able to scan the heat loss report and attach the document so we may see the numbers as they appear on the report ?  We would also benefit by knowing how much baseboard is installed in each of the rooms .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 17, 2013 8:27 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:44 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    oh boy.  they came with a 0010, and I gave them HTP phone number, and
    they said HTP is saying to get the 011.  he just left to go pick up the
    011 pump.  will this not work now??
    I can see if I can scan the heat loss calc today.  in terms of baseboard per room, infine/line 30 in, the numbers are 18, 8, 14, 8.5, 4, 4, on 1st floor, and on 2nd floor, 7, 5.5, 5.5, and 5.5. does this help?
  • Rich Rich @ 10:12 AM
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    will be fine . I apologise for not calling Burnham earlier to verify sequence of operation and logic on this boiler , their manual that is available online may be older as John from US Boiler stated that any installation off of the boiler loop si no longer recommended in the current manual . He could just be out of the loop however . We must take his word on this though .  You are finally on your way . I guess they never did speak to HTP then ..
    Those footages will be fine once we match them to what room each is installed in and can view the heat loss . Maybe you could give us the BTU requirement for each room from the report and how many fet are in that room . That may just do the trick .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 17, 2013 10:33 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 12:19 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so they put on the Taco 0011, reveresed the piping on the HTP, and still, cannot fill the bathtub wiht hot water. still runs out at 6.5 min, about 25 to 30 gallons of water.  the heat went up about 2 degrees in 1 hour 20 min.  it lost 3 degrees when turned off over an hour.heat loss but/her 2nd floor-per room, 3870, 3180, 3006, 3213, and measurements per room (height, lenght, width) in same order are 7.5 by 11.5 by 11.5, 7.5 by 11 by 10, 11 by 11 by 8, 7 by 11 by 12. 1st floor: 10 436, 4470, 8129, 4697, 1991, 2019, and dimensions in same order: 13 by 15 by 15, 8 by 12 by 15, 8 by 20 by 12, 8 by 12 by 10, 8 by 9 by 10, 8 by 9 by 10. let me know what you think, and if you need more info.  sounds like they are tying to say with this burner and ssu-45, we should not expect a full tub of hot water, and they still think the 105, but using the same tank this time, will give extra heat recovery and could work better.
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 12:39 PM
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    How big is this tub.

    On small mod cons I typically use an 80 gal if theres a garden tub or body sprays, 60 if not.
    All this trying to get the correct pump is for not if the boiler cant supply it. What I mean is there is very little performance difference between 4 gpm and 8 gpm if you only have 72000 btus available from the boiler. A flow chart and gauges would have told them this.
    I think you may need both the larger boiler and IDWH.
    If you have an 80 gallon tub and want a 60 gallon 110* bath fill for net 105 water and your incoming water is 50* the water heater will need about 25 to 30 min of the boilers time when you factor in set point lag and line loss. Take a shower before hand or do laundry and you could be off for a while.
    Your house is cooling of more than you like in that amount of time. I'm all for properly sized equipment but if the have checked gas pressure, clocked the meter and have done a combustion efficiency test, then your ready for some larger equipment.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 12:25 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    also, what are your thoughts on this:
    my brother found this.  page 9 table 5 below it, it states that the boiler required to get the advertised numbers needs
    to have an output of 141000btu/h.  Mine is around half that. thoughts now on a bigger boiler?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:38 PM
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    The advertised numbers

    are basically the maximum amount the indirect can absorb from a boiler.  If you really need that kind of DHW output, you probably need to rethink your DHW heat source. Your current boiler produces roughly two and a half times as much heat as a typical gas-fired tank water heater can.

    Your building heat loss was calculated at 45k.  The minimum firing rate of your boiler is 16k.  I would not recommend any boiler that has a higher minimum output.
    This post was edited by an admin on December 17, 2013 12:41 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 12:50 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    it's a typical bathtub from 1998.  probably about 35 gallons or so.  so one of you is saying get the bigger 105 Alpine, and the other post to stay at the 80?  I just want to make sure I fully understand 
  • RobG RobG @ 2:47 PM
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    Clocking Meter

    Someone needs to clock the gas meter to see if the boiler is actualy putting out its maximum  output at high fire.
  • Pughie Pughie @ 2:50 PM
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    I've lost track, is this system still set for prority DHW?
    John Pughe
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 3:38 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yes it is set for set for prority DHW, and they did clock the gas meter,  they are out of idea, and talking about flying reps/engineers from PA here form Burnham
  • SWEI SWEI @ 4:11 PM
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    Talking about flying?

    This isn't rocket science.

    I guarantee that someone at either Burnham or the MA rep knows a truly qualified contractor located near you whom they could hire for less...
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 4:41 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I agree.  we should hear back from them in a few days.  They reduced the pressure to 65 pounds by putting in a pressure valve, and that gave us abou an extra 40 seconds of hot water in the tub.  he has an idea that possibly a buffer tank coudl help.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 4:51 PM
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    What temperature is your incoming water?  How many gallons to fill the tub?  How hot do you want the water in the tub to be?
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 5:37 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    about 35 gallons to fill the tub.  last time they took the temp of the incoming hot waster it was 118 degrees.  I could go up a few degrees though and be happy.  I will buy a thermometer this wknd and measure the hot water coming in myself
  • SWEI SWEI @ 5:44 PM
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    Is this a cast iron tub?

    118ºF is far too hot to bathe in.  Your 45 gallon indirect should be able to fill that tub without delay, no matter what boiler is hooked up to it.

    Any chance they reversed the DHW inlet and outlet ports on the indirect?
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:22 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    I will buy a thermometer and take the bath water temp.  are teh DHW inlet/outlet ports what is on the bottom of the HTP?  if so, yes they originally reversed these, and they corrected it today.  it is not a cast iron tub.  I believe it is plastic?? 
  • SWEI SWEI @ 6:44 PM
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    Inlets and outlets

    The boiler in and boiler out ports are close to each other, near the bottom.  The DHW in and DHW ports are far apart -- cold near the bottom of the tank and hot is near the top of the tank.  If the cold water and hot water ports were reversed, it would produce symptoms similar to what you describe.

    A cast iron tub in a cold bathroom can absorb quite a bit of heat, and often requires filling with "too hot" water to produce a comfortable bath.   A polymer tub does not have that issue.

    Does your system have a tempering valve as the drawing below shows?
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 7:07 PM
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    Yes, SWEI

    There is a mixing valve in one of the pictures.

    About time for a Part 2 thread. This is becoming unwieldy.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:39 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    so on the hot water tank, I turned on the hot water, and for the pipes on the side of the HTP, the pipe at the top got really hot, and the pipe at the bottom got really cold.  I'm guessing these were the inlets you were asking about.  are these correct, or is this reversed?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 6:45 PM
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    That sounds right

    See diagram above.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 6:52 PM
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    Does the Alpine have a DHW sensor?

    I see one mentioned in the troubleshooting guide (pages 117 & 188 in the IOM) but no other details.  If there is one, it should be installed in the sensor well of the SSU (in place of the aquastat.)
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:48 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    where would I look for the tempering valve.  I'm not sure what it is?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 6:57 PM
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    DHW tempering valve

    is a temperature-controlled mixing valve installed at the outlet of the indirect.  One port goes to the hot water outlet, another to the cold water line, and the third feeds the fixtures in the house.  If you don't have one, that might just be the ticket.  Set the tank for 140ºF and you'll get ~20% more capacity out of the indirect.

    In the diagram above, it's labeled "mixing valve."
    This post was edited by an admin on December 17, 2013 6:58 PM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 6:52 PM
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    Fill Rate

    6.5 minutes to get about 32.5gal. of water. That's 5 gpm (gallons per minute). That's how fast you're emptying the indirect tank. I ask again: why on earth do you need to fill the tub so fast? The problem is not in the equipment. The problem is your expectation of what the equipment should do.

    As I stated earlier, if the piping and pump were corrected, then the other major factor is how fast you're drawing off water. It would take a 200k btu boiler or tankless heater to keep up with a 5 gpm draw. However, your house only has a heat loss of 45k btu's? The boiler should be sized to match the heat loss of the house, not the domestic demand. Your boiler is already nearly twice the size it should be ( assuming your heat loss info is correct). Going to a bigger boiler is insanity. And, as I stated before, the 105 is only gonna give your 3/4 gpm more hot water. What's the benefit in that?

    Again, you will only get about 75 - 80% draw down of the indirects storage capacity. After that, the incoming cold mixes down the remainder of the hot in the tank. This is true of any brand. Your tank is 45 gal. x 75% = 33.75 gal. That's exactly what you're getting. Ther is no issue with the indirect tank.

    After that, the boiler will recharge the tank at a rate of 2.4 gpm. If your still drawing 5 gpm through the faucet, it's not gonna keep up or catch up until you shut the faucet! Then, it's going to take almost 19 minutes for the tank to be completely recharged with hot water: 45 gal. / 2.4gpm = 18.75 minutes.

    The problem is that you are expecting the new equipment which is sized much closer to the house's heat loss to operate like your previous boiler which had to be grossly over-sized. Again, it's simple physics and math that you need about 200k btu's to continuously heat 5 gpm coming out of your faucet. That means that your old boiler was at least 5 times the size necessary for space heating. That's one of the reasons that your oil bill was so high.

    You now have a modern high efficiency boiler that will save you considerably on your fuel bill and give you better comfort in the process. The trade off is that you need to adjust your life style a little to match the system. Slow down the hot water faucet and all will be fine - including your nerves.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:01 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we have a mixing valve.  we have slowed down the fill rate with the lever on the tub, and it allowed us 13 minutes before completelty depleting the tank of hot water.  what rate do we need to slow it down to to have continuous hot water?  
  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:34 PM
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    Flow Rate

    As I stated, with an output of 72k btu's from your boiler, it will heat your water at 2.4 gal. per minute. An energy saver faucet ( which is required by code now), would limit you to 2.5 gpm, total ( hot + cold). The hot is typically 80% of that when you're showering.

    Of course, you'll still get what's stored in the tank ( about 32 gal.). But if you limit the draw to 2.4 gpm, the boiler should keep up.

    As I mentioned before, I have a large family ( all girls, but one) and when we rely only on our 50 gal. gas water heater which has a 42k btu burner, we have no problem having enough hot water. We do have energy saver faucets and sometimes someone has to wait about twenty minutes if there have been two showers right before them.

    When our outdoor wood boiler is fired, which is 200k btu's, we never run out even with two showers simultaneously going.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:46 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    so the new pump, Taco 0011, is the green pump facing us.  The other green pump to the right of it, closest to the hot water tank, is a Taco 007-F5.
  • Rich Rich @ 7:52 PM
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    Burnham Manual
         I spoke with Burnham tech this morning guys and it seems to me that the boys in that department don't have that broad a product knowledge .  For instance when I asked if this boiler when on Priority interrupted power to the boiler pump during a call I was told ," No and that cannot happen " , Now we know this is not so by the drawing and explanation of pump sizing from page 65 I believe .  Could the boiler have bee4n left at default values which are 170* water to the indirect , if so the water actually reaching the HX is probably only 162 until this morning when the pump was changed ?  Could the stat in the indirect not be set high enough to say 150-160* which would substantially increase the storage capacity of this heater to that of a 60 gallon tank . At worst these folks should have 33.75 gallons at their disposal . Could these guys have installed the mixer and not increased the tank temp , boiler temp during a call ,  maybe it is not even set on priority ?  I know I am stretching here but something is terribly wrong , we have all seen some very strange stuff I am sure . Could Frustratedandcold whom posted the other thread in fact be friends with this guy and the reason he cannot help him is because he is out there trying to figure out what is wrong with baseboardheathelps' system .  
       The homeowner will possibly post the BTU requirements for each room and tell us how many feet of heat are in those rooms also so we cabn begin to understand that problem also . No way an 80 should not be heating a 50K home .    
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:19 PM
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    As Others Have Posted

    A set of thermometers on the supply and return from each zone would be greatly beneficial in diagnosing that issue. It may simply be air binding. Also could be that the reset curve needs adjusting.

    There have been so many mis-conceptions thrown at this system, particularly by the installers, that it's hard to know what's what.

    I'm familiar with this boiler and its control and it can be set to drop out the boiler pump during a domestic call. See page 103 of the I&O manual. However, with this customer's piping arrangement, the boiler pump should be set to run with a call for either while the SYSTEM pump is shut off during a domestic call.

    Another mis-conception is that the head of the boiler should be added to the head loss of the indirect. That is NOT true as there is hydraulic separation provided by the closely spaced Tees that allow the boiler to inject into the manifold. The only way that hydraulic interference would happen is if either flow rate in the manifold was excessive (over 4 fps) because the diameter of the manifold was too small.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Rich Rich @ 9:47 PM
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    Boiler Head

    If you drop the boiler pump you must certainly add all heads involved in the circuit . If the boiler pump was dropped during a domestic call your operating pump would have to move enough water through the entire circuit , boiler HX , indirect HX , and piping . I do agree that on this installation the boiler pump should remain on during all operations .  But we have no idea how this guy did initial set up , a definite problem that we face trying to come to conclusions .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 17, 2013 9:49 PM.
  • FrustratedandCold FrustratedandCold @ 11:56 PM
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    I assure you our installers are not the same. I did get in touch with hotwaterbaseboard, and know we are not dealing with the same group, though that would be sadly funny.
    I found the burnham field tech to be very helpful, he was in pensylvania by coincidence. If hotwaterbaseboard would like to speak with him, he may be able to help get her installer on the right course.

    You guys are all terrific, and we are both fortunate to have your input. I hope that hotwaterbaseboard gets their system straightened out soon.

    As for my installer, his issues are personal, fortunately I am able to step in with a little guidance and do my best to troubleshoot, and try to resolve.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:06 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I am unable to get my scanner to work to get the heat loss up. I double checked and the numbers I posted earlier are accurate.  let me know if something is missing
    Contact this user

    Real world ssu-30 in my own home

    In my house with a 72,600btu NIBR output and the SSU-30 I can run all 3 body sprays, shower head and hand spray continuous. Sometimes even the dishwasher is running. But no other zones. Now my temp differential on the boiler inlet and outlet is roughly 12-18 degrees using a 0010 pump and boiler supply at 188-196 according to the viega strap ons. The tank stat is at 150 approx and set to turn on pretty quickly. After water runs for 3-4 minutes straight. I believe its 10 degrees or less delta T. My probe is set in lots of thermal grease in the well.

    When the HO stated a few posts up that the inlet was very hot and the return was very cold, this makes me think there is way to little flow still. There is no way the 45 coil is cooling off more than 20 degrees with the correct flow. I wonder if they put a 0011 sticker on a 007 pump???? Are there cooling fins on the new pump motor?

    Could we get updated pics? Even a pic of the calc sheet too works with a good camera
    This post was edited by an admin on December 18, 2013 10:08 AM.
  • JeremyN JeremyN @ 10:38 AM
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    She's referring to the tank water input/output...

    ... not the boiler water input/output. Someone suggested a few posts back that the installers may have mixed up the piping with this so I had her run the hot water for a bit a feel the pipes. Her findings are that hot water is being drawn from the top of the tank and cold water being replenished from the bottom. As far as I know, this is the way it should be.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 11:25 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    at 8am today, I put the heat up 6 degrees.  It is now 11:30 and it has not reached that 6th degree, and has gone up only 5 degrees in 3.5 hours. I know we are only supposed to set back up to 5 degrees, but this seems ridiculously slow.  some day I prefer the heat to be on a higher temp if I am home the majority of the day
  • Rich Rich @ 11:43 AM
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    Please post the lengths of baseboard in each room . Include how many BTUs are required as per the heal loss and the amount (footage) of baseboard that is installed in that room .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 12:25 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    this posting is baseboard length and btu heat loss per room: 1st floor-18, 10,436;     8, 4,470;      14, 8,129;        8.5, 4,697;        4, 1,191;       4, 2,119
    2nd floor: 7, 3,870;       5.5, 3,181;         5.5, 3,006;        5.5, 3,213
  • Ironman Ironman @ 6:14 PM
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    Those lengths assume an output of 580 btu's per lineal foot of element. The problem with using that number (580) is that's the maximum that the BB can put out with 180* water flowing through it at 4 gpm. If a system is running at 170* average water temp (180* in, 160* return) at 2 gpm, the output is gonna be around 500 btu's per lineal foot. Then, take into consideration that your BB are older, probably could use a good cleaning, etc. and you could very well be getting 450 btu's per foot. A lot less than the installer assumed. This is a very common mistake in the trade to assume 580 per foot.

    I would recommend that you clean you baseboards with a vacuum after taking the covers off. Be careful not to damage the fins and straighten any that are bent. If there's a lot of stubborn dirt that won't come out with the vacuum, a gentle brush can be used. Once clean, put the covers back in place making sure they snap on all the way. Also make sure the damper is positioned properly where it can pivot open and closed and leave it open. Also, make sure that carpet is not up under the BB restricting air movement into it. There should be at least one inch clearance between the bottom of the BB and your floor covering.

    The other thing to do would be to have the reset curve adjusted higher to give warmer water.

    Third, don't use more than 4* setback or none at all if you're doing it to try to save fuel because it's not. It actually uses more. Also, the boost function can be adjusted to raise the water temp faster.

    There's also the possibility that the system could still have air in it and it needs purging. Air will bind the flow of water.

    Having the supply and return temps of each loop would greatly aid in diagnosing if there's still any hydronic issues.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Rich Rich @ 2:11 PM
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    T average ?

    So this home is approximately 945 square feet on the first floor .   That would for arguments sake make the perimeter walls roughly equal to 128 lineal feet , can we assume that this is pretty near the Total equivalent length of the first floor zone circuit ?   Let's for a minute imagine that this installer knew exactly what he was doing and calculated the output of the baseboard per foot at a given flow and average water temp, maybe 1 GPM @ 170*, the numbers work and every room on this first floor zone seems to have enough baseboard .  The problem is that the average water temp is not 170* in every piece of baseboard . As you travel through the circuit every piece has a lower T* ave. therefore putting out less BTU at the same flow as the piece before . You see where I am headed ?    Here is an equation from MHH3  Delta T = BTUh divided by 500x flow . This house as described by the numbers   31742 divided by 500x3(1500) = 21.16* Delta T .  The problem is I believe we are here or worse  31742 divided by 500x1(500) = 63.48* Delta T . Guys a 007 can't do this , PERIOD .   It can move 1 GPM @ just under 10 feet hd and 3 GPM @ just a little less head than that .What pump can we offer as a suggestion that is capable of delivering 3 GPM and guaranteeing a proper Delta T ?  008 VDT, 0013 VDT .  At least then we can count on an average temp of 170* right smack in the middle of the circuit .  Remember the old oil boiler was oversized , probably had a monster pump and was more likely than not making hotter water than what we can now . 
     I would be willing to bet that the equivalent length of this circuit is 200 + feet and their is I believe a kickspace heater within it .  There is certainly a low flow condition here . Luckily it is one that can be overcome with the right pump . Note to self , please write Taco and ask if they could stop production of 007 that everyone thinks is the right pump . Was that my outside voice ?  
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 18, 2013 11:09 PM.
  • RobG RobG @ 2:42 PM
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    Tub and Faucet

    I know this is not the main problem, but could you post a couple of pictures of the tub and the tub and shower valve and shower head?
  • Pughie Pughie @ 3:12 PM
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    Baseboard Simulator

    Guys - I've got something that might help but, i'm not to good at this computer stuff. Not sure how to attach a file to my post. Perhaps some one could be so patient as to walk me through the proceedure?
    John Pughe
  • Rich Rich @ 4:53 PM
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    Are you using Hydronics Design Studio ?  You should be able to save a file for this job if so . Save to documents , after writing your post hit the file attachment Browse button , go to documents highlight the project , open it and it should attach . Is that what you needed ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Pughie Pughie @ 6:02 PM
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      Thanks so much, I'm very bad about this computer stuff, thats exactly what I am looking for. I am using the baseboard module basically just to back up exactly what you were saying in your earlier post about the 1st floor. I can't believe how helpful you guys have been for these poor folks, in reading your posts you have a lot of time invested in this project, kudos to you. I'll try and give what you said a try. Thanks so much for responding.


    PS I would have responded earlier but, I can't seem to get the math right! LOL
  • Pughie Pughie @ 6:46 PM
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    Baseboard Sizing

    For what it's worth, in support of Rich & Bob.
    Using the Hydronic design studio - Baseboard module and inputing the following -  as an example.
    Argo low trim BB at 690 BTU's/Ft rated at 200*/1 GPM with 15% heating effect factor removed = as Bob said - 587BTU's/ft max.
    Pluggin in the heat loss for each room on the 1st floor, shows the following reqd. BB for each room.
    Taco 007 circ selected, 180* starting temp, 200' equilivant length piping as Rich estimated yields the following results.
    As Bob said 587 probably too high, using a lower value makes the senerio even worse with regard to the installed BB being short.
    Hope this may help, just my 2 cents. Rich - here goes I'll try to attach this
  • Pughie Pughie @ 6:49 PM
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    Did something wrong, I'll try again. Dam!!
  • Pughie Pughie @ 6:55 PM
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    Trying again

    Here goes again!

  • Pughie Pughie @ 6:58 PM
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    Sorry guys

    Sorry guys, I'll try again later, time to feed the dogs, as a matter of fact, they'd probably have better luck than stupid me!
  • Dan Holohan Dan Holohan @ 9:50 AM
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    I tried to answer your email but your address came back as not valid. What I wrote was that the Wall will accept only certain formats for file attachments. If you want to send the picture to me I'll try to post it for you. Thanks. 
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:03 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so are you saying the Taco 007 pump that is to the right of the new 011 pump needs to be changed out?  what should it be replaced with? 
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 10:12 PM
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    I'm confused

    I thought the house heated just fine before the boiler replacement. Probably because the old boiler was set at 200 maybe 210.
    I still think the parameters are not set correctly and the boost function I mentioned back near the top of this saga is not set correctly.
  • Rich Rich @ 11:10 PM
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    You would be understanding that correctly .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Rich Rich @ 11:08 PM
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    I believe you may have part of it there . The major factor here is that a 007 cannot , never could , will never move enough fluid to heat this home at any temp . On the first floor zone it would appear that there is actually 63+ feet of installed radiation and a total equivalent circuit length of 200 - 210 ft  . This circuit really needs to flow 3 . 17 GPM to achieve a 20 Degree Delta T across it . This little 007 is certainly killing itself trying to achieve and only realistically able to put 1 GPM through this circuit
      See my  T average post . , 
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 8:01 AM
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    The 007 is the cause of more

    issues on the wall than any other single piece of hydronic equipment. A ups15-58 makes life so simple. One 15-58 can eat a lot of tacos.
  • Rich Rich @ 9:13 AM
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    Its a shame

    I think a more fair statement would be that un qualified persons are the cause of more problems that appear on The Wall .  Let's face it we have all made very good use of the 007 without incident . To the unrefined the 007 can take care of everything , why use anything other than what many manufacturers include with boiler packages .  I'd be willing to bet that some of these young men don't know there is any pump manufacturers other than Taco & Grundfos . 
       Tech guys at these factories must get so frustrated with these calls from people asking questions about what is clearly in the manual then being abused as if their equipment is a piece of trash . All boilers should be designed around what the uninformed have knowledge of is their mindset .
    Little boxes with warnings and cautions all over the manual mean nothing , hell they are even in bold print as if to jump up and down and wave their hands saying " HEY PLEASE READ ME , WHY ARE"NT YOU PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO ME , DON"T I MATTER IN YOUR LIFE , IAM PRETTY IMPORTANT "  This thing appears to me when I see it like my wife when she is annoyed  , Warning , ignore to your own peril !  Unfortunately as we married folk all know there are always innocent bystanders affected by the following events !  
     This bold print statement is in one of those little BLACK BOXES
    It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
    It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
    and boiler piping configurations that provide the
    proper flow rates and performance for the boiler
    and indirect water heater.  
     The following is from Page 54 :

    It is often very difficult to accurately calculate
    the pressure drop through the system.
    d. In replacement installations, it may be nearly
    impossible to get an accurate measurement of
    piping amount and number of fittings in the
    system. If system is zoned, the system flow rate
    may drop well below recommended minimum
    flow when only a single zone is calling for heat
    And Don't forget the various charts and language associated with them .
        Fact is that the 007 is not going anywhere and why should it ?  Maybe there should be a warning included with all circulators stating that
    " verification of the effectiveness of using this circulator in any system is the responsibility of the installer " The manufacturer accepts no liability for damage to other system components , losses by the end user , any obligations that arise due to improper installation of this product . Installer shall be responsible for all damages due to improper use " 
        No that won't do any good either because until there is a way to verify ones qualifications this will continue and unfortunately accelerate in it's frequency .    
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 19, 2013 9:18 AM.
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 9:24 PM
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    To clarify

    The taco 007 was one of the first cartridge circulators in wide use and was not designed around radiant heat and pex pipe it was designed for copper pipe,cast iron boilers and baseboard. All of which were in wide use at the time of its creation.
    An 007 has little use in radiant. Take them out all the time and 99 times out of 100 a 15-58 is the correct pump.
    I dont kneel at the alter of Grundfos but it works
    PLs are a great pump as well when the floe gets a little higher. Just not a big Taco fan and B&G small stuff is Chinese crap.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:09 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok, so that other Taco 007 is also wrong...but what pump should it be replaced with??
  • Ironman Ironman @ 12:32 PM
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    A Taco 008, a Grundfos UPS15-58 (which replaces a Taco 007 or 008 on high speed) or a Taco 015 which can replace the Grundfos UPS15-58.

    The Grundfos and the 015 are both 3 speed pumps which allows for a wider range of application.

    The best choice would be a variable speed delta Tee pump like the Taco Bumble Bee or the 008 VSDT, not to be confused with the standard 008. What these pumps do is sense the supply and return temps on the zone loops and then vary their speed to achieve a pre-selected delta T (temp differential). This way the pump is moving water at a rate that matches the load from the zones. If one zone valve is open, the pump runs slower. If multiple zones are open, the pump speeds up to match the demand.

    Either one will bolt right into the flanges where the 007 is now.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:45 PM
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    Is quite a bit different (on any setting) than a 007.  It's got more head and flow on high than a 008, but speeds 1 & 2 come pretty close to the 008 curve.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 1:08 PM
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    Boiler display

    I believe that your boiler has a display like in the picture below.  When you run hot water, what is the temp displayed on the panel?

    When the water is off and boiler is running just heating the baseboard, what temp does the display show?


  • Rich Rich @ 1:25 PM
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    Bumble Bee

    is not a good candidate for this application .  If and when both zones are calling it will only do head of 10.5 feet . . At these conditions neither zone will receive what it needs and compound the problem .  008 VDT or 0013VDT are the only choices to address this problem
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 3:43 PM
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    this gauge ,

    seems to mean to me just looking at it that you have a 1 -> 3 degree temp margin per hour like radiant heat ,
    that is reasonable expectation for the energy management of the btu's ...

    out door reset makes many "decisions" on out door temps , mood swings outdoors it does not predict when it will rain for example so , it is reactive ...

    i think set back thermostats are sooo last century , a product brought about to control field side ,
    i liked the caleffi control , yet because of parts availability,..... :(
    with room sensors .
    Taco bought it , there , is a better management system. it can link to programs in a computer for systems with more complexities .
    thermostats are somewhat low brow management systems, sensors on the other hand are a bit more "Clever" .:)
  • SWEI SWEI @ 3:53 PM
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    Conventional thermostats

    can only tell the system two things, no matter how fancy the computer inside them:

    I'm too cold.
    I'm too hot.

    That's it.

    Not "I'm getting a bit cool here" or "I'm warming up very fast" or any of the other things a smart control system really needs to know.

    A simple 0-10V analog interface (which runs on the same two wires) can work wonders with the right logic behind it.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 4:49 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yes our computer screen on the alpine looks like that.  the heat is on and the temp is reading 141, and when I turned on the hote water, the temp went to 154 in 2 minutes of running the hot water
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 5:00 PM
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    Thanks.  I'm not a heating pro, but I think on a hot water demand the boiler should put out hotter water on priority.  I'm sure Rich or Bob or SWEI or Wheezbo can straighten me out.

    Oh, what is your outside temp today?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 5:13 PM
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    It should be set to at least 180*, 190* tops.

    It probably hadn't been in the domestic call long enough to get there. The OP said it had only been heating domestics for 2 minutes.

    The other thing to adjust, as mentioned, is the aquastat on the indirect tank. Set it up to 160* and after the tank is heated up, run one faucet and adjust the mixing valve to give you 120* hot water at the faucet.

    The aquastat is the little gray box on the tank. Remove the cover and turn the dail til the 160 mark on the dail aligns with the arrow on the side.

    The mixing valve adjusts by turning the green dail or raising it and turning. I'm not sure on that one because we carry the Honeywell one.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 5:19 PM
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    So if they fill the tub again and watch the temp it should give a better indication of how hot the boiler is supplying the water to the indirect?

    Even that is a little deceptive, because the indirect is being fed outside of the primary loop, so temps could be lower after being mixed with returns from baseboards.

    Indirect should really come off of the primary I would think to avoid that mixing down.

    At least we have a water temp after 200 + posts :-)
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 10:49 PM
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    knot grumpy ,

    are you Sure you are not Grumpy? i remember Grumpy and that is something he would have said : ))
    *~//: )
    This post was edited by an admin on December 19, 2013 10:51 PM.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 10:31 AM
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    I just took a 'selfie' for you.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 11:20 PM
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    Ironman ,

    there is a little delta Bump out on top of a valve stem underneath the "Hood" of that shiney green gizmo ..:)

    the cap is some what like the KEY on a pressure differential manifold , it comes off the indent is in form of a DELTA, ( triangle ) then , inscribed on the valve are "Directions" for the habby homeowner with an arrow that says HOT .
    lol and Cooler ...

    i think most folks can mange that control once the cap/key is off and in hand...

    with the gauge it is like you say ... let a trickle out on the hot at a nearby sink look at the gauge ,

    turn dial.

    one notch is say = to X degrees ok so then you go
    if that made it 123 and it was 120 i will turn it the other way to cool it down ,!
    so you dial it back that one notch and one more for "Good Luck" lol
    it ought read 117 Wow! Whadda Smokin Deal! : )
    it really Does work like that !


    then when you get it to where you can turn on the hot water full blast and it read as warm as You want it to be while you live there leave it alone dont mess with it it Good...
    put the cap back on it ...

    it really is a wonderful thing to know the home owner is habby now that they have had a chance to set the Hot water Straight ! : )

    usually it has some limited access type hassle, because the folks who make them prolly do not want some vindictive kid , turning the heat up full blast to get someone out of the bath room ...

    the Honeywell ones are nice too ... basically the same in the way they work ,

    it is really like we have all hinted at bump a paco gauge into a T and badda bing ! "DialAble"!

    *~//: )
  • Rich Rich @ 6:33 PM
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    We are

    almost there Knotgrumpy . Maybe by the next visit the installer will bring a properly sized space heating pump and spend 30 minutes on the phone with Burnham tech learning how to properly set this one up . Although I believe we would have a better shot if the new thread poster Jeremy would go do this work for us .  baseboardheathelp , is Jeremy your brother ?  If so don't count on seeing him for awhile he will be reading .LOL
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 19, 2013 6:35 PM.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 6:48 PM
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    I'm a little concerned that the way they 'fixed' the reversed primary supply and return at the closely spaced tees may screw up the whole hydraulic separation aspect of primary/secondary.  If you look, there is no straight run before or after the tees.  I think that matters, but I don't remember the minimums off hand.

    Rather than change the piping on the boiler side, they made a convoluted roundabout on the secondary side.  I don't know why?  They could have done less work and saved the straight runs before and after the tees.

  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:00 PM
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    The attachment shows the proper spacing for the Tees. 8 pipe diameters of straight pipe incoming, 4 pipe diameters of straight pipe outgoing (minimum).
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 8:16 PM
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    Thanks, Bob.  That's the diagram I remember.
  • Rich Rich @ 7:28 PM
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    That there

    would be why we always uses unions right at the equipment . Did not notice that before , luckily they did not use an old school air scoop . I do not particularly like that but it should work
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on December 19, 2013 7:29 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:42 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    the hot water in the tank is set for 140 degrees.  I'm not fully sure what the aquastat is, but they told us setting it higher than 140 will void the warrenty.  so, will having them put a 008 taco pump in fix all the problems?  I can run the bath tomorrow and check what temp the boiler is at. what temp should the boiler be reading at while the bath is running with hot water? they told us that it takes 3 minutes of the bath running for the hot water heater to call for the boiler to start making water, and it takes about 1 more minute after that for the boiler to kick in to produce hot water.  our bath runs about 6 gallons per minute
  • Ironman Ironman @ 11:58 PM
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    Warranty Void?

    I don't think so.

    Once again, your installer is mis-informed; or just can read plain English.

    The HTP warranty states that if the operating temp is set above 140*, then the tank falls under the commercial warranty of 7 years.

    It also states that the warranty IS void if there's no vacuum relief valve. I didn't see one installed on yours. That means the installer voided your warranty - oops, I found it, they can't get you for that.

    It also states that it's your responsibility to keep the water ph between 6-8, the hardness below 7 grains and the chlorine below 100 ppm. Have you done that? How would you do that? How can you prove you've done that? Can they prove you haven't?

    Furthermore, it states that if you can't produce the original sales receipt, the tank warranty reverts to 10 years from the date of manufacture. A lot of legalese to cover their back side if they choose to use it.

    If the tank did began leaking with the aquastat set above 140* and someone set it back below 140* before a tech or rep saw it, how would they know it had been set higher?

    The point I'm trying to make is this: if they want to find a way to deny coverage, they're gonna do it.

    Again, the aquastat if the small gray box on the side of the indirect, below the HTP label, with an armored cable connected. :)
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on December 20, 2013 12:07 AM.
  • Rich Rich @ 10:34 PM
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    We can only guess at the piping system and its true equivalent lengths . As educated of a guess that I could make is that the 008VDT would be sufficient with no IFC installed . This should add right around 13 feet head to the space heating circuits .  Again , just a guess from 5.5 hours away . 
      DHW going out of mixer is 118* I believe you stated , depending on your preferences you may opt for a mixed temp of 105-110* , HTP does limit the warranty in excess of 140* operating temp  Anything higher than that usually enables you to enforce the 7 Year commercial warranty . Take this into consideration though the stainless steel tank in their high mass boilers have a 12 year warranty . Hmm  , interesting gamble .  Your Space heating ODR ratio should probably be no more than point 6 (.6) with the design temp set at 184* . , this would put your warmest day SWT at 140* . I would do this ratio until and if you ever have the piping and baseboard redone . My advice for first floor is a manifold and each rooms heat get a homerun from the manifold . This action will drastically increase your response time and efficiency .
        What this 008 pump will change is the flowrate to this unknown heating circuit and insure that the flow will always match the heat loss of that zone , in other words the water returning will be 20 * cooler than the supply water that went out . Tell them to place the sensors properly and set the dial inside the box to the #4 ( this is 20*) .  
    Do not allow them to leave without calling Burnham Tech support and being walked through the set up process and verifying what they have done .
     I expect the next time we talk you should be in much better shape . 
    Remember that we are not there and are making educated guesses based on years of experience . If 008 does not work you will require 0013 . Do not think this is the case . If you have obtained the oh so important thermo devices Weezbo  has rightly touted please check the supply temp going out and the return temp coming back while heating zone is on . Supply is to the left of the 2 Tees near boiler and return is on the right now .  Good luck . If you have any questions while they are there I will be available as long as I am not in a basement  
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Timco Timco @ 3:20 AM
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    Only time I ever heard of anything like this, the Munchkin had no input for priority so it was married to the ODR's set point instead of making 180.

    Also, with no priority, the zone pumps never cut off and the indirect was just another zone that ran with the rest of the house.

    Boiler and pumps sized fine otherwise.
    Working on steam and hot-water systems isn't rocket's actually much harder.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:00 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    my husband said when we had the 007 pump in, they told him the supply and return was 180 and coming back at 160, and that this was accurate.  we do not have this info with the 011 in yet, but I do plan to get a thermometer
    Contact this user

    HEC-2 bumblebee

    Has 4 speed ranges. #4 shows 2gpm@13'. 4gpm@11'....10gpm@7'. To give an idea, speed 1 is all under 4' head.

    The older munchkins required a kit called vision 1 to add the priority IDW control, our rep said that their 80 would actually do 110-120k when in priority since the HE was the same as the 120.

    After all this the HO hasn't hit the store for a couple of strap ons. Would help a lot , even for piece of mind, and keep mr. Weezbo happy too.

    I would think on priority if all is working right, there should be way more than a 13 rise with only the IDW running. Test again and see what it reaches after a full cycle
    This post was edited by an admin on December 20, 2013 10:20 AM.
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 10:24 AM
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    This is a long thread! Interesting though.

    Here is something that might be worthwhile to check.
    The old boiler was cast iron. Lots of iron oxide. Even in the new system they have a lot of dissimilar metals AND black iron for the header piping.
    It is entirely possible that the heat exchanger in the boiler and the Water Heater has become partially clogged with Iron Oxides and Black Magnetite. 

    Ways to determine if this is the case.
    Measure the Flue temperature (boiler exhaust temp) and look at the boiler water supply and return temp at the same time.
    Let a little bit of water out of the boiler drain and see what color it is.

    Harvey Ramer
    This post was edited by an admin on December 20, 2013 10:26 AM.
  • RobG RobG @ 3:07 PM
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    Flue gas temp

    Harvey, to measure the flue gas temp there has to be a hole in the exhaust pipe. I don't see a plug in the exhaust in any of the pictures, which means a gas analyses was probably never done either! (unless the plug is hiding where it cant be seen).
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 3:24 PM
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    there is something there. Either a spot on the pipe or a little dab of caulk or something. Either way there wouldn't have been any clogging rearing it's ugly head during initial startup.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 6:58 PM
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    i see a dot above the wing handle of a brass flange upon

    the grey exhaust side how they balanced both tmp readouts i am not certain because the pics are not entirely "User Friendly" when it comes to diagnosis ...

    one thing that i would like to touch upon again is incoming temps on the cold water and efficentcy on the hot water , however if we could each give a single example of this strategy , it might be helpful .
    so let me revisit a piece that i already posted ....
    Grundfos Comfort System Hot Water Recirculator System , UP15-10 SU7P TLC, 595916, Comfort Valve

    Grundfos Comfort System - Hot Water Recirculation System The water circulation system that eliminates cold water runoff at the faucet using a bypass valve and pump with a timer to control water flow. Hot Water Recirculation - Special Features- The ultimate in convenience is having hot water instantly available at sinks, appliances and bathroom faucets. The elimination of time spent waiting is especially convenient...

    each of us could describe at least one method or system of this aspect and describe how that too might be of benefit to a home owner . the installer and a community .

    Dan is into District Heat and so i know this is not quite the same specific topic ,
    yet it has the advantage to enlarge the perspective as it were on staring at the elephant and swearing it looks like a tree...

  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:47 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I just ran the bath for about 3 minutes on hot, then ran downstairs to get the temp reading on the computer screen of the boiler.  I watched the temp on the boiler for about 3 minutes go from 137 to 139, then I ran back up to the bath, and about 1 minute later, ice water was coming out.  during those 7 minutes, this is an estimate, but I would say the bath filled up about 25 to 30 gallons of water.  I know someone asked me to get a temp reading  on the boiler's computer screen while the bath was running
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 8:41 PM
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    That was me


    So it looks like the boiler temp did not go above 139F on sustained call for DHW?

  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:47 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I ran back upstairs at 139 temp reading, and yes in 60 seconds cold water was pouring out.  what temerature should the boiler have been reading at?  
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 9:02 PM
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    I'm not sure

    I am not sure if the boiler can bring the water temp up rapidly enough in the 6 minutes it takes to fill your tub at full tilt. I don't think ~ 140F water in the coil is going to win the battle against the cold water entering the tank, but I'll let one of the pros answer your question.

    Hang in there.
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 4:39 AM
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    Here is the thing BBHH

    I am calling you BBHH (baseboardheathelp) because it is more convenient and I think, a little more friendly :-)
    Any one of us, here on the wall,could find out what the problem is, within the hour if we were at your place and looking and taking measurements from your system. Unfortunately, I for myself, as I suspect most others do, live quite a distance from your house. I hail from South Central PA.

    So if we are to help you from here, we need you to do a couple of very important things. To do these things, it will require a small investment on your behalf. I think Weezbo has touched on this time and again, but we desperately need some temperature readings. You need to purchase at least 4 strap-on thermometers to be able to give us the info we need. You need to place the thermometers as follows. One on each heating pipe right where it comes out of the boiler. One on the hot water side of your water heater, BEFORE IT GOES THROUGH THE MIXING VALVE, and one on the cold side WATER FROM THE WELL OR WATER METER, going into your water heater. After you have the thermometers placed, fill up your tub with hot water and take measurements from all the thermometers in one minute increments.

    Once we have these temperatures, the situation will become much clearer. At this point there are many things it could be. There could be to much water flowing to your faucets as was suggested before. (One thing to note, is that your old oil boiler most likely had a heating coil for your tap water, stuck right in the boiler.) These coils slow the water flow down quite a bit. Now you have a water heater and it zips right through. That would mean less heat is being transferred to the water that you need to be hot. Also, it could be the boiler? Perhaps the settings in the boiler control are not proper. There are so many things that could be causing this. To get to the bottom of it we need to start with a simple approach. PLEASE GET THE THERMOMETERS AND MEASURE THE TEMPS ON THE PIPES I MENTIONED TO YOU. After we have that we can start to narrow it down. It could be something as simple as your boiler control set to the wrong parameters.

    Please do this, it will help us help you.   
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:41 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we are heading to Home Depot to get thermometers today.  we checked their website, and do not see anything called a strap on thermometer.  is it possibly called something else, or is there another store we should get them at?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 9:46 AM
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    Menards has them

    If you have one in your location. If you do they are in the plumbing department radiant heat section. About 20 bucks a piece.
  • FrustratedandCold FrustratedandCold @ 10:02 AM
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    got to FW Webb, the Granite group or peabody supply, just ask the folks at the service desk, but they probably all close at noon today
  • JeremyN JeremyN @ 10:04 AM
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    Would an IR Thermometer work?

    Instead of getting 4 strap on ones at $20 a pop?  The IR thermometer can be used for a number of other applications around the house as well.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:51 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yea can I just get 1 infrared thermometer instead?  they have those in store, and that sounds much easier. let me know
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:20 AM
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    Yes you can, but you must take notice to use a piece of frog tape on emissive surfaces when taking readings. Don't get the cheapest one either they are not created equal.

    You can buy indoor outdoor thermometers and use the outdoor probe on the piping taping and insulating the probe. This gives the ability to not personally monitor and
    MIN MAX temps are saved to see at your leisure. Most only read as high as 130* is the only draw back though. Good for radiant applications
    This post was edited by an admin on December 21, 2013 11:33 AM.
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 11:25 AM
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    A strap on Thermometer

    will be much better. Plus you are going to want to leave them on the system anyway. Something like this
    That will be more accurate than a IR Thermometer and you can look at all four gauges at the same time.

    You can also get an IR Thermometer to use for other stuff. They are very handy to have!

    By the way, make sure you also have a thermometer, like the one you stick under your tongue when you are sick. We will be needing that in later steps. Let me correct myself. The thermometer that you stick under your tongue probably doesn't go high enough. Get one with a probe that will go well above 200º
    This post was edited by an admin on December 21, 2013 11:37 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 1:33 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    just got back from Home Depot and we got the IR thermometer, so hopefully that will do.  We plan to get the temperatures needed tomorrow. and when you say the IR thermometer is handy to have, what else would I possibly want to use this for??
  • Gordy Gordy @ 2:13 PM
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    For the average HO

    Not much. You could use it to find hot spots by shooting wall temps on the outside of your home see where insulation is lacking.

    Otherwise mostly for heating system check temps of emitters supply return piping temps, and of course the indirect.

    Other than that anything that your curious about surface temperature.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 2:56 PM
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    Using your IR Gun

    Here is a post showing how I have had pretty good luck with an IR thermometer.  A few pictures there as well.

    If I use the frog tape next to an actual thermometer in a well I get within 2-3 degrees of the same readings.  Good enough for what I'm doing.

    Oh, I think I have seen chefs using IR thermometers as well.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 3:18 PM
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    simple ,

    one . determining the temp at boilers supply and return pipe , twodeterminin the temp at suppy and return pipe on the heating system three determining the temp at the supply and return on the domestic water loop on the HTP and four determining the supply and return temps on the HTP boiler side of the HTP..

    27000$ worth of time .....later.... anything you would like .lol...
    you can also get room temps ,on the walls of rooms temps above the baseboards .. just to name a few more immediate uses..
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 6:35 PM
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    If you have a

    pet, they will love chasing the red dot :-) Other than that, you can point it at a lot of different stuff just to see what temperature it is. I have a curious mind. I love fiddling with this kind of stuff.
  • Synopsis

    Would it be possible to start a new thread offering a brief synopsis of the problems with this newly installed system?   I find it hard to read through so many posts to get to the true meat of BBHH's problems.

    The main thing I picked up was that the pump for the indirect was piped wrong. I am also blown away by the installer's attitude and that he won't come back to fix things that BBHH is finding troublesome.  Has the installer made an appearance here on The Wall?
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 4:18 PM
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    It wont Go!

    Reverse engineering by sight . Alan.
    so far, we have determined remarkably little info in hundreds of hours of burned daylight . :)

    that's about it, in a nutshell.

    i think that if the pictures were of the circs close up earlier on we may have had an opportunity to make some interesting discoveries in reverse flow rangeability "Mixing" in a low loss header ...buh i already understand that particular process just that i like to deepen my understanding on that happening in the "Wild" .
    the pipes were changed .. changed to what we still not entirely certain ..
    the only thing we have managed to do is get an anti scald with a gauge on the out going mix so it can be dialed down to extend the available domestic hot water and
    piece together that the boiler indeed has a readout screen with 140 water being sent thru to the water maker n a call for heat at that appliance.


    the water maker is piped bass akwards and heat goes to cold ..

    hope the holidays finds you in a thankful and joyous spirit.
    O ! and my magnification glass 100X has yet to reveal the temps within the pipes...
    *~//: )
    This post was edited by an admin on December 21, 2013 4:21 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 1:28 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    Thanks everyone for the help, I tried getting the best measurments today focusing only on the hot water.  I turned the heat off for while to get the best baseline temperatures.  The IR thermometer didn't work all that well, but we have thermometers installed directly into some of the pipes that I was able to use.  The most accurate temps are from the supply and return pipes into the boiler and the hot water pipe that is after the mixing valve.  I turned the hot water on in the tub (approx 6 GPM @ approx 120 degrees) and watched the temps.  It took approx 17 seconds before hot water started coming out.  I took temps until the hot water tank completly recovered (30min).  Here's the temps and some notes.  The setpoint for the boiler is 180.

    Pipe 1: Supply from boiler
    Pipe 2: Return from boiler
    Pipe 3: Hot water pipe after mixing valve

    Baseline: 0:00
    Pipe 1: 144
    Pipe 2: 140
    Pipe 3: 80

    Supply: 136
    Return: 131
    After mixing valve: Going up (above 80)

    Supply: 147
    Return: 147
    AMV: 120

    Supply: 146
    Return: 146
    AMV: 120

    Supply: 100
    Return: 97
    AMV: 120

    Supply: 112
    Return: 92
    AMV: 120

    Supply: 125
    Return: 131
    AMV: 120

    Supply: 131
    Return: 109
    AMV: 120

    8:00    -------    Hot water ran out @ 8:15
    Supply: 135
    Return: 112
    AMV 115

    Supply: 137
    Return: 114
    AMV: 80 !

    10:00     ----   Turned off water.
    Supply: 130
    Return: 115
    AMV 70

    11:00    -----  Stopped taking notes on after mixing valve.  Remained at 70
    S: 144
    R: 122
    AVM: 70

    S: 146
    R: 125

    S: 149
    R: 128

    S: 151
    R: 130

    S: 153
    R: 132

    S: 155
    R: 134

    17:00   -   Took at note that boiler was working at %100
    S: 158
    R: 136

    S: 159
    R: 138

    S: 163
    R: 141

    S: 165
    R: 143

    21:00     ---   Took a note that on the boiler "stack" was at 178 degrees
    S: 167
    R: 146

    S: 170
    R: 149

    S: 172
    R: 151

    S: 175
    R: 154

    S: 177
    R: 156

    26:00    -   "stack" at 187 degrees
    S: 180
    R: 159

    S: 182
    R: 161

    S: 179
    R: 162

    S: 180
    R: 162

    30:00    -   Boiler shut off
    S: 181
    R: 164

    S: 168
    R: 165
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 1:36 PM
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    Whats the temp of the domestic hot water going to the mixing valve?

    Did you monitor firing rate the whole time?
  • RobG RobG @ 1:53 PM
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    If your readings are correct, there is definatly something wrong with one or all of the following.
    a. your boiler
    b. your piping
    c. your control set-up

    The boiler should ramp up to 180 degrees alot quicker than 26 minutes. I would think that the installer would have checked this. But, from what I have read about the installing contractor it is not surprising.
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 2:16 PM
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    Very Good Job!

    Now we have some good data to work with. I'm pretty sure I know what is the problem but we have one more thing to do. Take a small bucket and pull about a gallon of water out of the boiler drain.
    Tell me how the water looks.
    Then dump the bucket of water through a cloth so you will catch the sediment. Take a picture of the cloth and post it.
    Also, take a picture on the outside of the house where the boiler's vent pipes come through. Please post that picture as well.

    You are doing great with this!
  • Rich Rich @ 2:43 PM
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    Judging by the Delta T hovering right around 20* I would say we hit on the correct pump for this at least .  From minute 7 through 31 it stayed right where we want it , those first 6 minutes are something .  
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 3:35 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    The hot water tank is set for 140 degrees.  When should the boiler kick in to start producing hot water? Ours kicked in around the 4 minute mark, at 6GPM, does that sound correct?  How fast should the boiler reach 180 degrees?  It did take almost 26 minutes for it to reach that temperature.  It's a brand new system so I'd be surprised if there's any sediment in the water already. 
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 3:45 PM
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    In your situation

    I would crank the water heater up to 170º

    NOW!! The things I told you to do earlier with the bucket of water and taking a picture of the vent piping, may seem inconsequential. TRUST ME, THEY ARE NOT. I AM GOING SOMEWHERE WITH THIS AND I HOPE FOR YOUR SAKE I'M WRONG ABOUT WHAT THE ROOT OF YOUR PROBLEMS ARE. You did very well with the temperature readings now PLEASE continue with the troubleshooting steps I told you.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 7:02 PM
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    Snap shot in time...

    30:00 - Boiler shut off
    S: 181
    R: 164

    S: 168
    R: 165

    shows that what could be ...

    now ,
    when this is happening and you turn the heat on ,...

    the green circulator to the two silver shiney things with the wires hanging out of them (Zone Valves in our lingo)

    will have a time variable temp reading also .

    .............. the Black pipe that is just underneath the green circ pump will change temp , rapidly

    as soon as a thermostat is turned up ..
    the temperature on the black pipe on the left hand side of the Bigger black pipe on the left hand side as you look at he "Headder" are the returns from the zones ..
    these will also show time variable temp changes...

    the individual copper pipes can be read by aiming the gun at the end of the copper "Drops" where they connect to the black iron T.


    these numbers are of interest as they will then speak to a clearer picture for
    a better diagnosis .

    the test could start when the thermostat is turned up to like 80 ,
    no hot water used or being used ,......

    take th e reading on the boiler control ..
    take the temp on the black pipe to the green pump to the zone valves.
    take a reading on the Return side on the drops to the left side of the behaviour. er , headder.

    then do the boiler test to the water Maker ..(HTP)

    soon as you see the snap shot we started with ,

    then recheck the supply and returns on the zones ,

    in 5 min check again all places .


    there are two black iron T's on the headder , that come from the boiler itself .

    one above the black pump and the other connects by black iron to black iron , right next to it on the headder
    if it were on me to get in and get out , i would also track the temps there very quickly taking mental notes from different parts leading and leaving those Two "T's ..
    this would further round up my snap shots in time , to fill in an enormous amount of useful information .


    the outside temp and room temps and time variable reading back at the boiler and in the field would enable me to dial this in even better ..
    , ..
    you have good help ,

    when you isolate one variable ata time it will make impeccable distinctions with which to steer by ,

    our minds are able to process this information ,

    even though they are only snap shots in time.....

    *~//: )
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:47 PM
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    Based on these numbers...

    My observation is that the system is working exactly as it is supposed to. Remember, the tank aquastat is half way up the tank, so running cold water for 4 or 5 minutes before the boiler kicks on is perfectly normal. (4 X 6 = 24, tank volume = 42). Also, based on your math, you got at least 80% of the tanks total volume before you ran out of hot water.

    And the time from run until shut off also looks correct (within reason) based on 72,000 btuH output of the boiler.

    I don't see anything on this side of the system that would give me heartburn. I think it is working as good as it can, given the situation.

    Now, if you slow your tub flow down to 1.5 GPM, it is possible to get even more hot water out of this system, and the math is as follows;

    1.5 GPM X 8.33 X 100 degree rise X 60 minutes per hour = 74,970 btuH.

    Your 80,000 btuH boiler puts out 76,000 btuH (80,000 * .95 = 76,000 btuH)

    A typical residential bath tub holds about 30 gallons of water with a person sitting in it.

    So, 30 (tub capacity) divided by 1.5 (GPM flow rate) = 20 minutes from start of fill till full.completed.

    It's going to take some experimentation on your part to get the flow rate down, but once you figure out where the sweet spot is, set it, and start watching the clock, and when 20 minutes are gone, you should be able to jump into a completely full tub of hot water. If not, you most probably have a defective aquasats that is not initiating the call for boiler as quickly as it can. Have them replace it with a solid state, high quality, extremely accurate one…. Johnson controls makes a very nice one.

    The other option would be to opt for a larger storage tank capacity,or more fire power(bigger boiler)

    Personally, I'd adjust my usage patterns around the energy availability and be done with it, but that's just me. I'm so tight, I squeak when I walk (according to my children and loving wife)

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • 4Johnpipe 4Johnpipe @ 8:37 PM
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    Hot Water

    Not sure if this was addressed yet. The boiler supply and return piping is reversed at the indirect. That is an HTP SS unit correct? I looked earlier pictures and pulled a manual and they have the lines reversed.
    Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:49 PM
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    Pipes Reversed

    If you look somewhere back in this volume, you'll find that got corrected. It may take some research, but it's there. :)
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 11:27 PM
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    I don't think it would make THAT big a difference in the recovery/output of the tank. Guessin less than 5 percent.

    I once had a conversation with Wonderful Walter Weebler of W Cubed (Carlson Mining and Manufacturing predecessor) who with the help of Rick Meek developed a brazed plate heat exchanger. I asked him if counter flowing his plate heat exchanger made THAT big a difference,and he said it made about a 2 or 3 percent difference. If that.

    The way that heat exchanger is loaded into the bottom of the tank, I'd be surprised if it made that big a difference, but rules are rules…

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • 4Johnpipe 4Johnpipe @ 11:32 PM
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    No Hot Water

    I know Im late to the show. I hate to say it the boiler is not large enough to give the designed hot water output of the SS45. It seems to be in line with the output ratings of the SS20. The boiler supply should ramp up to 180 for a domestic hot water priority call. In this case both the boiler pump and the domestic hot water pump should be running. If this setting is correct you still would only get a portion of the rated hot water due to the lack of BTU for the volume of water coupled with the square footage of the heat exchanger inside the SS45. You would be in the range of 130 - 150 gallons per hour max. The tempuratures you provided are clearly showing a boiler programing issue or possibly a criss cross in the circulator wiring. Could they have the boiler circ and the domestic circ backwards? This should have been tested before they left.
    To get the benifit of the higher hot water output you would need a larger boiler. That said 150 gallons isnt too bad...
    Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
  • SWEI SWEI @ 11:38 PM
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    What she needs

    is a larger tank (or a higher storage temperature, which is where I'd start for sure.)  Or a separate DHW heater.  Or a supplementary DHW heater.  Not a bigger heating boiler.  Really.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:52 AM
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    #300 Congratulations SWEI!

    You hit the big number.:)

    I thought this thread might have been coming to an end after Mark confirmed what's been stated several times. Namely, the simplest thing is to slow down the fill rate of the tub. She's pulling btu's out of the indirect at over twice the rate that this combination of boiler, piping, circ and tank can produce.

    None of us knows for sure if the control is setup properly, but it does appear that this combination is doing all that can be reasonably expected for domestic and that to consider putting more equipment in when there's a sufficient volume of hot water available to meet their NEEDS is missing the easiest solution. There's no need to go nuclear when a slingshot will do. Definitely, a bigger boiler isn't warranted.

    As far as space heating goes, she may still have issues there. We're not sure; and unless we get a competent and trusted tech on site we may never know for sure.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 12:27 PM
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    To the consumers credit...

    Remember guys, she had a "working" system before she went for the replacement. I'm guess that she had an oil fired cast iron boiler with an immersed DHW coil, and the boiler ran at 180 to 200 degrees F, so when she wanted a lot of hot water, by golly she got it. Then they changed the system, and it didn't work like it use to. I'd probably complain too…

    But even if it were an oil boiler with an immersed coil, she could still only push maybe 2 GPM through that coil, so the fact that the boiler was sitting there in a hot ready, steady state condition is what probably kept her in hot water.

    I call it the STC principle… Subject To Change. As soon as something changes, and you are not use to the new way of operation, its broke… Need e bigger one (tank, not boiler) or a slower flow. The only thing the slower flow is going to cost is time.

    Based on all of their feed back though, she may still have some issues with the tanks aquastat. The ones that come with the tank have a lot of slop, and inaccuracy to them. I have seen them hang up with a tank full of cold water.

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 2:02 PM
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    A Valid Point

    Agreed Mark.

    The biggest problem on this job was probably not the installers technical inability or his stubbornness to having his false conceptions corrected. It wasn't the installation errors that had to be corrected. He did neat enough work and was willing to go overboard when he realized that something had to be done to correct the situation.

    No, the biggest problem in my view is his failure to understand how differently this system would perform than the old one and communicate that to the customer. I doubt that he still has grasped that.

    We've probably all been guilty of this. In our rush to sell and install another job, it's quite easy to fail to properly communicate with the customer and see what their EXPECTATIONS are. We know what ours are. We know what the system can be expected to do. But we fail to find out what the CUSTOMER is expecting for his money. To fail to find this out and bring it into line with what they are actually getting is a sure road to disaster in customer relations. In fact, other than outright lying to a customer, I know of no surer way of souring customer relations. The simple reason is that the customer FEELS that he's been mis-lead when doesn't get what HE expected.

    This is probably the area of more failures in our trade than any where else. I hope we all can learn from this. I know I have and it's something I need more improvement in.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Zman Zman @ 10:20 AM
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    I've checked in on this post from time to time.Every time I look at it, I come to the same conclusion Mark did, "what's the problem?".
    The heating setbacks (bad idea) can be accomplished by setting the program to start earlier.
    The domestic water would be solved by using low flow fixtures.Just think of the lower water bills.
    The next time someone asks me why manufactures don't offer the higher efficiency Euro models in America, I am going to show them this thread and say "because we are not ready"
    We just keep driving the 350 horse power SUV to the store and complaining about the government.
    It always amazes me the kind of "first world problems" we all dream up.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 2:04 PM
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    Not ready !

    Oh so true Carl,

    We live in a world of front wheel drive, all wheel drive, anti lock breaks, superior ride, talk on the phone, and be on the internet all most anywhere. Go to the store, and can't decide what type of a single item to buy because there are so many brands remember bar soap maybe four choices. Etc.etc.

    The roads are to rough, the snow was not cleaned off the road enough, and don't get it dirty. I don't have cell service, the police took 10 minutes to get here.

    I think back to our ancestors making their way west in a covered wagon what they would have gave for such transportation, and the world of convenience people have the nerve to complain about today.

    Society has become want it fast want it now mentality, text me, email me.......soon we all will have to change like it, or not.

    Some countries you go to the store, and get a loaf of bread you don't get to choose a brand, or even which loaf.

    Sorry for the rant Carl struck a chord at a feeble moment in time, and in no way am I tying my comments to the original posters issues in this thread.

    Merry Christmas to all, and let's not forget its true meaning, and that's giving. Thank you Dan for creating a place where giving is such a common event all year long!
  • Steamfitter66 Steamfitter66 @ 2:10 PM
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    It comes down to 2 things

    The OP needs a qualified technician to properly set the parameters as the boost function is not set correctly, and the IDWH is not sized correctly for the lifestyle of the homeowner.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:04 PM
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    HTP SSU coil flow rates

    Not looking to prolong this, but figured I should close the loop, now that I finally got some numbers from Brian French on the SSU flow rates:


    For the SSU-20 & 30. CV = 5

    For the SSU-45 & 60. CV = 5.5

    For the SSU-80. CV = 6

    For the SSU-119. CV = 6.5

    So the Alpine 080 moving 4.8 GPM @ 30ºF ∆T would see 1.76 ft of head from the coil of an SSU-45 or 2.13 ft of head from an SSU-30 (no piping.)  With a 20ºF ∆T, those numbers would move to 3.96 feet on an SSU-45 or 4.79 feet on an SSU-30.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 12:06 PM
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    Any changes to your system?

    Curious, after following this for a few weeks, how's it going?
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 12:29 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    hi, nope no changes!  they came this week and still don't know what is wrong.  they came with HTP and Alpine reps.  It took 3 hours to go from 65 to 66 degrees, and they now are willing to bring in a 3rd party, but of their choice.  the alpine rep after coming here 2 times discovered that the computer was set so that the burner would not go above 170 degrees, so that was changed to 180, but that is it.  
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:51 PM
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    Third party

  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 1:00 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    sometime next wk
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 5:40 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we had an insulation company come today to seal our attic and add some extra insulation.  they said that they could not do it because the CO level was too high on the burner, in the 80's, and for a new burner it should be around 7.  is this accurate?  the heating company came back and said the CO level is in the normal range and is in the manuel.  we also called HTP and they said that the burner should go to 180 degrees in 3 minutes, not 20 minutes like ours does, when the hot water is running.  
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 7:05 PM
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    Thread 2

    hot water baseboard heat

    Why don't you post that in a new thread called Hot Water Baseboard Heating Part 2 ?

    I'll put a link in the new thread pointing back to this one.  This one is getting too long to be easy to work through.

  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:34 PM
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    Page 86 of the alpine manual says the co should be less than 100 ppm, not less than 7. That's measured in the vent with a combustion analyzer. Did your insulation guy measure it in the flue vent or in the atmosphere of your house?

    If it's from the atmosphere of your house, you have a serious issue that needs to be resolved immediately.

    When measured in the flue, 40 ppm is typically about the best you'll get if the other parameters are correct.

    Your boiler water temp is NOT gonna shoot up to 180* if the temp of the domestic in the tank is cool. It probably won't reach 180* until the tank temp nears 120*. There are several variables there, nothing in stone. The HTP guy wasn't considering the variables.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 6, 2014 7:39 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:55 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    the insulation guys measured the CO outside of the house where the gas exhaust is.  The heating company then came and measured it through the pvc piping, 2 feet above the boiler.  they drilled a hole in it to check it.  the insulation guy said it was in the 80s, the heating company said that at low fire it was at 15 and at high fire it was at 48.
    the differential in the hot water tank may be off.  it should call for hot water below 140 degrees, but the the Alpine rep said it is possible it is not doing this and calling for hot water at 120, which he said was too low.  the tank temp starts at 150
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:50 PM
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    15 - 48 ppm

    Those numbers are fine. It would be nice to have the O2 and CO2 numbers from their analysis. Did they give you a printout?

    If the flue vent is run and terminated as per Burnham's instructions, then there's no danger. It's always good to err on the side of caution, but the insulation guy is off base.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:13 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I do see a printout left on the counter.  there are 2.  first one O2 is 5.7% and CO 12ppm, ef 88.7, C02 8.6, t-stk 135 F, t-air, 61.4 F, EA 33.6, and CO(o) 17 ppm.  hand written lo on the bottom with handwritten notes CO 12 ppm, Co2 9.9, 7.9, 8.6, O2 3.5, 7 , 5.7.  2nd one 02 is 5.8% and CO 46 ppm, eff 88.5, C02 8.5, t-stk 142 F, T-air 60.9 F, EA 34.4, CO 64 ppm.  handwritten at bottom Hi Fire, CO 46 ppm, CO2 9.9,  8.2,  8.5, and )2 3.5, 6.5, 5.8.
  • Chris Chris @ 9:18 AM
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    Through This Entire Ordeal

    And I've read every post. Nobody has done a heat loss calculation, nobody has measured system supply temp while comparing the btu/hr ouput of the board and/or DHW at those temps. Everyone keeps going to the boiler control to read temp. Has anyone done any system side supply/return readings as well as DHW supply return readings. Are you over pumping? What are the delta-t's. Nobody has started with the basics, everyone keeps running to the boiler. What's the delta-t on the boiler/primary side? This sounds like a hydronic problem not a boiler problem..
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:40 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    a heat loss calc was done, but very late in the game.  I posted the results of that.  Im not sure how to find the delta t?
  • Chris Chris @ 9:47 AM
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    So Nobody

    Has done any system side supply/return water temp measurements at all? That would be ridiculous in my opinion if they haven't. Boiler is working, making energy, making hot water. So the issue has to be on the system side not the boiler side. Without these readings how would anyone know what's going on? They wouldn't. I'm very surprised nobody that has been to this job hasn't taken delta-t/temperature readings on the heating and DHW system side. Delta-t is the difference between the supply and return temps. Since your piped primary secondary, the boiler/primary side would have a different delta-t the the system/secondary side. How would anyone know what the btu/hr delivery is without these readings.

    gpm = btu/hr / (delta-t x 500)
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:23 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    can someone please tell me how long we should expect it to take for the heat to go up 1 degree? we have called alpine, and they will not let us talk to the engineers, and the rep said he cannot answer this.  we are not getting a straight answer.  the heat was at 64 degrees all day, and we bumped it up to 70 on the thermostat.  an hour has gone by, and it is onl at 65.  it took 3 hours a few days ago to go from 65 to 66.  what can we expect from the alpine 80?  I know it is slower than our old burnham, and I do wish we were informed of this, but this seems terribly slow, and we have just been informed that the company does not know what else to do at this time. htp and alpine reps have come and confirmed their products are working correctly.  supply and return temps were done, I believe I posted these a ways back, but I will look for those numbers again
  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:46 PM
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    It depends

    There is no fixed answer to your question. It depends on several factors, boiler sizing, distribution sizing, heat emitter sizing, heat loss of the structure, control settings.

    All of these things have been brought up multiple times here, though in a scattered fashion.

    The only reasonable way to get a fair estimate at that question is to start from a heat loss calc and then factor in the things listed above as well as your setback temp. If someone wants to take the time to do all that, then you'll get an accurate answer. Otherwise, they're just guessing.

    Again, I think you need to re-align your expectations with what the system is capable of doing. It's not simply a matter of what you can expect from " the Alpine". Any other mod/con of the same size would give you the same results under the same circumstances. You've got a system that is substantially more efficient than the energy hog that you had. That comes at the slight cost of adjusting your life style.

    I've had cars that could do a 1/4 mile in 12 seconds, but they got about 10 mpg. I've got one that takes twice that long but gets 30 mpg. Which would you choose to drive on a regular basis?
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 7, 2014 8:57 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:31 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok they said the supply and return are correct. supply is 180 degrees and return is 160.
  • Chris Chris @ 9:49 PM
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    There is no Way

    There should be TWO SUPPLY AND RETURN TEMPS NOT ONE....The boiler is piped primary secondary, in essence two separate systems. The boiler or primary side delta-t is constantly changing, ie, modulation.. They system of primary side will have a different delta-t. It is 99.9% mathematically impossible for both sides to have the exact same supply and return water temp. Here is the reason why.

    The boiler/primary side has a fixed speed pump that the boiler mfg sized to move a specific flow rate each and every time it fires, You cannot no matter how hard you try change that. In this case its moving 7.3gpm in an Alpine 80.

    Your system/secondary has its own flow rate dependent on what zone or zones are calling and that is always changing. The other factor is the system side pump. It again is a fixed speed pump and is always going to operate on its operating curve. In a multiple zone system one, two or maybe all zones are going to be over pumped.

    In order for you to have a 20 degree delta out of that Alpine you would have to to be in high fire constantly, move the entire 7.3gpm out of the primary/boiler side into the secondary side, the secondary side would only need exactly 7.3gpm at all times and you had perfect matching boiler and system delta-t's. The odds of all this happening in harmony at all times is scientifically and mathematically impossible.

    The question is when all heating zones are open and calling. The system side supply and return temps should be taken at the system side of the supply and return closely spaced tee's

    1. What is the boiler supply temp
    2. What is the boiler return temp
    3. What is the secondary/system supply temp
    4. What is the secondary/system return temp

    From the pics the indirect looks to be piped on the secondary side. You then shut off the heating zones, open the indirect zones and take another set of readings. I have to say that I'm surprised but again we are only hearing your side of the story.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    This post was edited by an admin on January 7, 2014 9:53 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:54 PM
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    hotwater baseboard heat

    ok thanks for the honest answer ironman.  can this change throughout the day?  for example, it normally takes us 1.5 hour to go from 58 to 64.  we typically set back to 58 at night, and leave it at 62-64 during the day, and when we get home from work, we try to set it higher, but this is when it takes several hours to go from 64 and up.  it is usually at 62-64 all day while we are at work, for several hours, and then we try to set higher after work,  it takes hours.  so, in short, it is fairly reasonable until 65 degrees, then it seems to get stuck.  we have been told that since it sits at 62-64 all day, it should not take too long to go a few degrees up from there, but it does.  does this sound normal, or does this seem like something is wrong?  the company said it seems wrong, but that they cannot do anything further.the boiler is sized right for the home, we had the heat loss calc done, but I'm not sure of the other things you mentioned.  All I know is we have insulation throughout the house, 4 inches blown into the walls, and we just had the attic sealed and added more insulation to the attic and our r level is 38
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:23 PM
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    Sounds Right

    The closer the room temp gets to the supply water temp, the slower the heat transfer will be from the rad to the air.

    Example: if you have 58* room air and 150* water temp, that's a 92* delta T. If you have 65* air and 150* water, that's an 85* delta T. Basic rule of thermodynamics: heat travels toward cold. The greater the temp difference (delta T), the faster heat will travel. 92* is greater than 85*. Heat output will be greater at 92* delta than 85* delta T.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:41 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    ok that is very interesting ironman.  so then the higher we want the heat, we should expect it to heat at a slower rate since the Delta t is lower? now will the alpine increase the water temp at all in order to make this pace faster, or no?  I know the temps on the alpine change drastically in order to be energy efficient.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:56 PM
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    Two things effect the water temp: the reset curve based on outdoor temp and the "boost" function. Both are adjustable.

    Your old boiler didn't have either of these and constantly maintained 180*+ water temp. That's why your system responded quicker from setback. Very wasteful, though.

    Remember, setback is not saving energy: it's wasting it. Especially the more "boost" that kicks in.

    Another automobile parable: your driving on flat ground at 55 mph. After a while, you begin to let off of the gas and the vehicle begins to coast and slow down. Eventually, you decide to speed back up to 55 mph. You can't accomplish this by slightly depressing the accelerator and holding it at the same spot where you had it before. You have to press it down to the point that it shifts into passing gear to get back to 55mph. This uses more gas than if you held it steady at 55. That's what the "boost" feature is doing on your boiler. It's playing catchup because you let the system coast and slow down.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 7, 2014 10:08 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:07 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok thanks for the info.  it is cold here today, about 5 degrees.  is several hours per 1 degree not alarming based on this outdoor temp?  The heat will not go above 66, and it has been several hours.  We will lessen the degrees we set back at night to see if that does anything, but our bedroom is on the 2nd floor, and the heat rises, so it really gets too hot up there if we do not set back at night. I hate the thought of having to open a window in the winter because this burner can't set back.   we recently got our first gas bill, and it wasn't all that much different than the oil bill.  Do other people like the Alpine?  we have read a lot of complaints online about how slow it is from others who have one
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:23 PM
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    Your location

    I don't remember your location, but 5* is probably at or near design temp. That's the temp at which your SYSTEM will just keep up with the heat loss of the house. Tying to get it to raise the temp inside under that circumstance is asking more than the SYSTEM was designed for.

    Again, you have a SYSTEM, not just a boiler. Every component plays a part in getting the heat from the fuel all the way into the house. Like a chain, it's only as strong as its weakest link. It's not anything peculiar to the Alpine. Any mod/con would operate the same. People always want to blame the appliance when the fault almost always lies elsewhere.

    If any component in your system is only capable of carrying 50k btu's, it doesn't matter that the boiler can produce 80k btu's. 50k btu's are all your gonna get.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:10 AM
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    Get rid of your setback.  Just for a few weeks.  Humor us.  If the system does not keep up, your contractor has not done their job.  If it does, then (and only then) you can start playing with setbacks.  Start with 2ºF and see if that works.  Report back.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:32 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok so I am assuming if it were warmer out, say 30 and not 5, the heat should heat up faster? and not just maintain the heat loss?  is there a calculation out there that we can do to determine how high our heat can go based on our boiler, heat loss calc, and outdoor temp?  while it is 5 out today, it is predicted to be in the negatives this week.  will this mean the system will heat even slower, and maybe not get to as high a temp?  it's frusterating that we cannot get to a desired temperature that we want.  there are days when we need to raise the temp, say if we have guests over, or the other day when our pipe froze!. 
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:27 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I was just told that our outdoor reset disables at 25 degrees, and the water temp gets to 180 degrees in 10 minutes.  so with this information, does it seem like it is working right or no?    after 2.5 hours of trying to get above 66 degrees, I gave up yesterday.  even though it was 5 degrees out, the water should have been 180 degrees, and the delta, yes, would have been lower than at 58 degrees, but should it be slowing down to this point with the water temp supposedly at 180?  I did not set back as much last night, and I will try this out for a few days and keep you posted.
  • Chris Chris @ 7:41 AM
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    You Do Realize

    That just because the boiler may be making 180 degree water doesn't mean that its in high fire nor does it mean 180 degree water is going out to the system side. For the 100th time, your piped primary secondary.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:55 AM
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    25* base line?

    The curve is not set properly. The baseline number should not be 25*, but whatever the design temp is for your locale (probably 0-10* outside). Setting it properly won't correct the obstacle of using setback, but would give you better economy.

    The fact that your contractor did not plot the proper reset curve leads me to believe they have not setup the boost function either. 25* baseline is the factory default setting.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 7:52 AM
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    A simple effective solution.

    Quit turning down the heat. Set it at a comfortable temp and let it there. When you want your bedroom cooler, shut the vents on the baseboard and close the bedroom door. If you can't shut the vents on the baseboard replace it with baseboard that you can.

    Or, you can keep turning your heat up and down and fussing about it.

    When is the last time you popped the cover off the baseboard and vacuumed out the fins? When they get dirty it really slows down the heat transfer.

    At this point my sympathies are with the contractor.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 8, 2014 7:57 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:03 AM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    the contracting company are the ones that are saying that something is wrong, and that it should not be working like this.
  • Chris Chris @ 8:05 AM
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    Install The

    Optional system side supply sensor offered for the Alpine. This way the boiler will reset off the system supply not the boiler supply temp.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Ironman Ironman @ 8:39 AM
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    Your contractor is clueless. That is obvious to all and therefore their statements should be taken with a grain of salt.

    Again, you have to think in terms of a complete SYSTEM that's heating your house, not just a boiler. If your BB rads are not capable of 72k btu output, for whatever reason, then you're not gonna get the full capacity of the boiler. I know it's on here somewhere, but can you post again the total lineal footage of your BB? Just the length of the fins, not the enclosures.

    Cleaning your BB has been brought up by myself and others. Have you tried that?

    Still, setback is your main problem. Is your sleeping area zoned separately where you can just use moderate setback there and leave the rest of the house at one constant temp?
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:55 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    not sure if my last post worked. apologies if it made it on here 2 times. 56.5 ft 1st floor baseboard, and 23.5 2nd floor. we have a zone on 2nd floor, but never really use it b/c the heat rises up there and heats it anyways. we set back less last night, 61 instead of 58, and it has been stuck at 63 for 3 hours, not moving up. alpine rep said we should be able to set back 2-5 dgerees with no problem.  
  • Chris Chris @ 10:00 AM
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    Capable Output

    103 ft of board is 103x 560x = 57,680 btu/hr - Now break it up into the zones. I'm keep preaching it, need boiler supply, return temps and system supply, return temps.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:22 AM
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    80' of BB

    She said 56.5 + 23.5. That's 80', not 103'.

    As I posted previously, it a mis-conception to use 560 or 580 btu's per foot. Those numbers apply with 180* water @ 4 gpm.

    At 170* average water @ 2gpm, the output is 500 per foot.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Chris Chris @ 11:16 AM
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    At 1GPM

    Flow rate with 180 degree water its 560 for SunTemp - Not sure what brand. Thanks for the math correction on the footage..
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:08 AM
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    40k btu's

    That's what your BB is capable of with 170* AVERAGE water temp. That's assuming its clean and in good shape.

    What was the heat loss for your house? If it's more than 40k btu's, your BB are insufficient to keep up, let alone over come setback.

    If your boiler had been vented with CPVC or PPL, you could set the supply temp a little higher, but not with PVC vent. The burner is already down firing at higher water temps to protect the PVC venting which is limited to 149* vent temp.

    The solution is not changing the venting material, but adding more radiation. Your old boiler was probably set to a higher temp to compensate for the marginal radiation (BB).
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:17 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    Chris, the heat temps are posted in an earlier post.  my husband bought a thermo gun and took and posted all the temps.
    heat loss calc stated he had enough baseboard. heat loss is 45, 012. 31, 742 on the 1st floor.  outdoor temp 3 and indoor temp 70, water 180.  are you now saying we do not have enough baseboard?? we were told these numbers say we have enough baseboard
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:34 AM
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    500 btu's per foot

    That's what you'll get with 170* AVERAGE water temp @2 gpm. Average water temp is the the supply (180) + the return (160) / 2 = 170*.

    You don't have 180* water throughout your system. You average 170*. That's the number you have to use.

    You show a heat loss of 45k btu's. Your baseboard is capable of 40k btu's. You don't have enough to keep up, let alone overcome setback.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Chris Chris @ 11:20 AM
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    Hey Bob

    What disgust me about this entire ordeal. Nobody measured system side delta's at all. Everyone went right to the boiler. Dumb move if you ask me. Not too hard to figure out what your delivering out of the boiler and out of the system. The misconception that the boiler side is what your getting on the secondary side shows lack of hydronic understanding IMO.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    This post was edited by an admin on January 8, 2014 11:21 AM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 5:50 PM
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    The lack of hydronic knowledge, by the contractor and the two "reps" is amazing. It's normal for a homeowner to blame the appliance, but for those in the industry to do the same shows how desperately we need competent people in this trade.

    If you'll look back at earlier posts, you'll see the contractor was ready to pull the 80k Alpine and put in a 105k one. The so-called "reps" advised him to do this!
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Chris Chris @ 11:27 AM
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    Those Temps

    Are boiler supply and return - What about system side supply and return? At the same time.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 4:36 PM
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    I'd like to see those as well

    HWBH can you indulge me and take your IR thermometer and take readings where I have put 4 arrows in this pic?  Do it while you are trying to get the downstairs up to temp.

    Chris - you'll notice they had to correct a mistake and here is no longer a straight run or 'clean shot' past the CST's.  I'm sure it is pretty turbulent there.
  • RobG RobG @ 1:28 PM
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    Another thing being overlooked is that the house is two zones. The upstairs zone is not being used, so only 56.5 feet of baseboard are being utilized.

  • Ironman Ironman @ 5:53 PM
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    Good point Rob

    I caught that too after reading her post on that the second time.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:22 PM
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    May I second

    Third, and forth checking supply/ return temps at each baseboard location, and where the base board distribution manifolds are where knotgrumpy has his arrows drawn in the pic last post.

    You have the tool now let's use it! Make sure you use some frog tape or black tape where you take your readings. Infra red does not give good reading on shiny surfaces. Also hold the gun right up to the area you are shooting otherwise you will shoot a large area giving false readings.

    Just forget about the boiler for a while.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 8, 2014 6:33 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:14 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok I'm not sure how to check the supply/return at the baseboard location, so I would need instructions for that.  but I did just get temp readings for the 4 spots with arrows on the pics.  I turned up the heat, waited about 5-10 min, then went to take the readings.  I put black tape on the spots, and held the gun close to it.  so from the top arrow in the picture to the bottom, the readings are as follows:

    116.8 degrees and the boiler was at 148
    117.3 and the boiler was at 151
    122 and boiler at 159
    169.9 and boiler at 174

    I then took the readings again when the boiler got a bit warmer, which was only a few minutes later, and again, here are the results from top to bottom:
    161 degrees and boiler was at 186
    175.3 and boiler was at 187
    134 and boiler was at 173**I took this one last, and something called "energy saver purge" kicked on and the boiler temp started dropping
    164.5 and boiler was at 182

    again, I turned up the heat, waited 5 to 10 minutes before taking the readings, and both sets of readings took about 5 min.  the boiler is now at 173 saying "running energy save on"

    how did I do?!  my first time using the infrared gun
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:21 PM
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    Now what are the baseboard


    Shoot each one at each end where the element is. Want to see if the heat is getting to the emitter.

    Are all zones on and set to same temps?
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 7:34 PM
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    On the baseboard there will probably be copper tubing or steel pipe coming out of the floor on each end. One will be the inlet and one the outlet.  Don't worry about which is which.  Just call it side A and side B.  Put some tape on those pipes and use your gun.
    I've got a feeling you will answer some questions all on your own.
  • Chris Chris @ 7:44 PM
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    I'm Confused

    I can't tell from the pic what's from what, its so small.

    Can you label those temp readings:

    Boiler Supply
    Boiler Return

    System Supply
    System Return
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 8:10 PM
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    Top temp is system return
    Next, System supply
    Next, Boiler return
    Last, Boiler supply

    That's how I read it anyway.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 8, 2014 8:22 PM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 8:47 PM
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    About that infrared gun….

    It reads a circle. The circle is conical from the tip of the gun and spreads out as you get farther away. You want to be RIGHT on the pipe/tape to get a good and accurate reading. If you are shooting from a distance, you are seeing an average surface temperature within a cricle which isn't accurate.

    RIGHT on top, at a right angle to the pipe, with the pipe centered on the eye piece.. I'd even recommend rocking the gun side to side and record the highest temperature seen.

    The laser is just a target reference… and has nothing to do with the surface temperature.

    There is usually a guide on the side of the gun to show target spread with distance away from target surface.

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 8, 2014 8:49 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:29 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I just have the downstairs zone on.  you want me to take a reading on each end of every baseboard?  I'm not sure what the element is, so I'm not fully sure where to take the reading. 
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:32 PM
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    One yes.

    Each end the element is the piping inside you can shoot inside get a reading on each end.

    All zones on.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:35 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok this may take some time.  do I need to put the black tape on the piping on each end where I am taking the reading? I am assuming yes?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:40 PM
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    You have the right idea.

    Want to confirm each base board is getting a reasonable supply temp.

    If you know which base boards are first in the loop, and last in each zone list the temps accordingly.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 8, 2014 7:41 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:43 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok, just so I'm clear, the baseboard has what looks like a fin that opens and closes, and inside that is the copper piping.  you want a reading on each end inside behind the fin on the copper piping, in otherwords, put the black tape on the copper pipe? it is a tight fit.  some baseboard has the piping from the floor to the baseboard at the end, but there is no way I could fit tape on that. too small.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:44 PM
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    You can

    Shoot the piping coming out of the floor which ever is easier.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:47 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    before I go any further, I just tried to do 1 room so far.  92.7 one end, couldn't reach the pipe on the other end as it sinks into the baseboard, and the next baseboard same thing, and one end was 87.  the end with 92.7 has visible piping coming from the floor, but I cannot fit black tape on it.  I got 117 and 120 for readings wiht no tape.  shall I continue, or is this not doing the job right?  i can always have my husband work on this tomorrow.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 8:04 PM
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    You may have an easier time getting a shot at the pipes from the basement if you have easy access.

    Good job so far.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:14 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok this is going to take me a bit of time.  I'm going to have my husband take a look at it tomorrow to see if he has a better idea than I do on how to get the most accurate readings.  I will post the results tomorrow.  any temp in particular that both zones should be set to while I do the readings?
    how do the 4 readings on the boiler look?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 8:43 PM
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    Good job.

    Leave the thermostat at set point not set back.

    When checking do it when there is a call for heat obviously, and after the boiler has run a bit just like you did tonight.

    We are trying to see IF the elements are getting the water temps needed to heat the space. So far not so well.

    As I said before document the temps in the order the baseboards are from the beginning of the supply to the end. Each zone same way separately.

    I will add your setback is not saving as much money as you may believe. If anything the little money saved is not worth the sacrifice in comfort.

    Rule of thumb if I recall every 2* setback saves 1%.

    So if your gas bill is 100 dollars your saving 1.00 for every 2* you set back this rule of thumb is subjective! but it is an eye opener to how little is gained in sacrificing comfort.

    Does set back save yes how much not much.

    One other thing a zone in deep setback can induce extra heat loss on a zone that is not setback through adjoining walls floors etc. thus putting extra load on the zone that is not
    set back.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 9:32 PM
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    Maybe this will help define what you have, as far as baseboards.They are all similar, even different manufacturers. End caps sometimes have hinges. Sometimes(most times), the installers dont screw the end caps in place. The guys are asking for readings on either end of the elements. The element is just the term for the copper tube with the fins on it. There's a stub of pipe that sticks out on either end.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 10:23 PM
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    In the morning I'll upload the boiler picture with lettered labels so you can identify them for folks easier.

    If you can see the tubing running to the baseboard from the basement, a few picture be useful as well.  It seems to me that the boiler is making hot enough water if I'm reading your temps right. And those temps are making it into the system loop. Now it would be good to know how the baseboard is piped in the basement.  The inlet temp at the first baseboard after the zone valve should be close to your second measurement.

    Good evening.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:06 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    when I took the 4 temp readings on the boiler piping, I was about 1/2 inch away from the pipe.  I was assuming I should not actually touch the pipe with the IR gun, or should I?  do the 4 readings from the Boiler that I shot seem ok, or are there concerns there?  I will not set back tonight, and see how it operates in the morning.  does it really only save  1% every 2 degrees per a monthly bill!? the thing is, we can't leave the house at 1 temp for the entire winter.  like I said, since heat rises, the upstairs zone cannot be as high as the downstairs, and if we were to have guests over, we open the doors to a large living room that is only heated by a gas fire place, thus allowing heat to leave from the downstairs zone to enter this room, and we then need to raise the downstairs zone a few degrees since the heat is escaping into this other room.  we normally keep this gas fireplace room shut at all times since it is not on a zone.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 9:21 PM
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    Let's see what the numbers are tomorrow.

    As far as the upstairs over heating. Are we seeing that now or was this before the new boiler. Regardless the thermostat should be satisfied, and the zone not call for heat whether the heat comes from down stairs zone , or the zone up stairs. If the zone is at temp then not operation.

    As far as the fireplace area I guess seal it off unless in use fire up the fireplace, or add some baseboard.

    Yes a 1/2" away should be fine for the IR thermometer.

    Set back saves if you are gone for days weeks etc. not hours. Your just trying to reheat the mass you let cool. Using just as much energy, and making the system work harder.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 8, 2014 9:23 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:30 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we moved here in September, so we never had the chance before to really get a feel for the heat rising to the 2nd floor, but I would assume it was the same as now.  we are unclear about, but could we add baseboard to this gas fireplaced living room with the Alpine 80?  the room is 24 by 28 feet.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 9:41 PM
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    How accessible the room is to add baseboard. Is it a slab, or is the floor over the basement access from below. If you can access it then add some. I assume this room was a part of the heat loss calculation?
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:40 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    in terms of set back and savings, what do you think of this:

     is the Alpine system unique where this would not apply?
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 9:59 PM
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    Radiant Floor

    They don't address the low temp. outputs of mod/cons. They do state it is not recommended for radiant floor installations, because of the time needed to recover.I would say that a properly operating mod/con is to an extent functioning exactly the same way. It is applying just enough heat to the"structure" to overcome the heat loss. All the components of the structure become, like sections of floor slab.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:23 PM
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    government propaganda

    The statement contridicts itself.

    Set back 10-15* save 5-15% so if your fuel bill for the year is 1000.00 save 50.00-150.00

    Next statement is For every 1 degree set back save 1% for 8 hour period. If the above statement is true then this one is false, or vice versa. So I was padding the savings a bit.

    Sorry I have tried the game. My comfort is worth an arbitrary 10 bucks a month Not even 10.00. If i cant afford that its time to move out.

    Now if you want to wear a sweater, and lay with a blanket then living with a lower set point means something. But bouncing back and forth is chasing the dogs tail.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 8, 2014 10:29 PM.
  • Mark Eatherton Mark Eatherton @ 10:55 PM
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    Gubernmint Misguidance...

    I have seen many reports to the contrary of the DOE's writers thoughts. And I have seen reports in favor of the governments findings, but their assumptions are all worst case/best case scenarios, and are fraught with "issues".

    For the most part, their assumptions are correct for old, leaky forced air heated home.

    The problem with a programmable stat is that it doesn't speak the same language as your boilers outdoor reset control. In fact, neither knows the other one exists, and there in lies the problem. The prog. stat. thinks that when it calls for heat, the source will vomit heat as a typical heat appliance does. Yours does not. It looks outside first and decides at what speed the heat pours out of the system. Your energy savings are greater at the point of generation with the reset controls, then it would be with the point of use, prog. stat.

    As others have pointed out, if you want a cooler sleeping environment, close the dampers to the baseboard, crack a window and close the door. Keep the stat set for a constant temperature, whatever makes you comfy.

    If in fact your house is cooling off significantly at night with the prog.stat. set back, it indicates other envelope "issues" like a need for insulation, caulk, and storm or new windows.

    Have you found the "sweet spot" for getting a good hot tub full of water yet?

    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 10:26 PM
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    The efficiency gained by using radiant heat

    far exceeds that saved by forced air setbacks.  Just my experience.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:50 PM
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    Allow me to interject

    Your house interior walls floors, and all interior furnishings have thermal mass that stores energy. Everytime you allow the mass to cool it has to be reheated Going in and out of set back.

    If the mass is allowed to maintain an even temp then it just needs a little bump every now, and then to maintain set point. Allow it to cool down it takes a lot more energy to get to that setpoint again. Then when it does in a while it will be set back allowing itself to cool off again. Its also a bit of a fly wheel effect because once the air temp gets to set point the mass of the room is still behind sucking the warmth from your body until the mass has reached set point. Dont believe me use your IR thermometer, and give it a try. But wait until we get those baseboard readings.

    Think of a pot of water on the stove. Thats mass heat it on high until it boils. Once boiling you can lower the burner setting, and still keep it boiling. Turn the burner to low let it stop boiling for a while then turn it to high, it takes a bit to get a boil again.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 8, 2014 10:52 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:51 AM
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    Hot water baseboard heat

    Gordy, does your boiling water example imply that there should be room for a small set back, as long as it is not drastic?  do you all disagree with the alpine rep that a 2 to 5 degree setback is do-able?  We are trying not to set back this week, and I will post the findings.  we like the house at 64, but then again, there are times we will increase that temp.  we have so far never been able to get above 66 or 67 with this new system, so I am curious to see if leaving it at 64 at night will allow us to move past this temp if we need to.
    Mark, they slowed the water down to 3.5 gallons per minute, and when I fill the bath tub, I use the lever to slow it down and move it half way before it turns on the shower, and so far so good.  I have been able to fill the bathtub!  They are still mentioning an extra 50 gallon storage tank, but that seems unnecessary and no one else I know has one, and they still can fill a bath tub!
    I'm having my husband try to take the baseboard temp readings today and will post the results later.  what temperature should the baseboards be at each end?  and should this be the same for both upstairs and downstairs?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 8:10 AM
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    Not sure yet

    On the set back.

    If you read all of Marks post about Tstats and ODR not communicating with each other is what I'm eluding to. Your thermostat should act as a high limit, and outdoor reset is controlling the temps. But let's see what the base board temps are.

    No the boiling water was not what I was trying to communicate only how mass reacts to temp swings.

    So for now put set back on the back burner and let it simmer.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 12:42 PM
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    Labeled Pictures


    Here are two pictures with lettering that you can refer to.  If you can retake the temps like you did last night at these locations it may be more accurate.  Especially the system supply (far right, letter A) and system return (Far left, letter B).

    This post was edited by an admin on January 9, 2014 12:50 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 4:47 PM
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    After all this

    The suspense is killing me.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 5:50 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    We turned on the heat (both zones) and let the boiler reach 180 degrees.  We re-did the 4 temp readins on the boiler pipes.  The temperatures for the pipes:
    A: 180
    B: 161
    C: 160
    D: 181

    we are working on the baseboard readings now.  first room and first baseboard reading-171 degrees.  we are not clear on how to do this fully.  we took the cover off the baseboard and got a reading of the pipe, which was 171.  when you said get both ends, do you mean both pipes, or the left end of the baseboard pipe, then the right end?  we were not able to see the piping from the basement ceiling, and we are not able to fit the IR gun through the lower part of the baseboard to always get the bottom pipe.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:23 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I went to each baseboard in the home and got a reading from one end, all of the pipes registered a temperature of 170 to 175 degrees both upstairs and downstairs.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:23 PM
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    So now what

    Is your thermostat reaching the desired setpoint? What is your setpoint? What were the outdoor temps during this period?

    Those are pretty good temps. Now we know the baseboards are getting good water temps.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 12:24 AM
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    20° delta

    On system loop. Add in another section of baseboard or a panel radiator and be happy is how I see it.
  • Weezbo Weezbo @ 7:30 PM
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    hello again,

    i have a question ,
    Would you take the new gun and shoot three places in the boiler room? shoot the ceiling 8 foot away from the boiler an opposite wall from the boiler and the floor someplace average the three readings and post a number ?

    thank you.

    My thought is the layout of a second zone ,split off the one existing zone with additional emitters on both the "New" zones would be something worth considering.
    hope that helps you in the coming year .

    *~//: )
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 10:25 PM
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    There's a problem with the ABCD readings. The system supply reading, exceeds the boiler supply reading.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 8:06 AM
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    Room temp?

    You did pretty good. What was room temp while baseboard was at 170°?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:46 PM
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    Order of temps

    Discrepancy I would assume. And deviation in the IR thermometer.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:09 AM
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    I will wait

    For the answer to other questions I asked. But have a good idea what's happening.
  • Chris Chris @ 8:07 AM
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    I have some concerns

    With the readings of boiler supply return/system side supply return. If the boiler is at a 20 degree delta-t given that we know the fixed speed boiler pump is moving 7.3gpm and the system side has if I recall 80 feet or so of baseboard and also giving a 20 degree delta-t would I not then be exhausting more btu/hr out into the house then the baseboard can deliver using 180 degree water?

    The system side must be pulling the 7,3gpm around the train track. Its has to. Your piped pri/sec. If it wasn't boiler return temps would be elevated and you would not be getting a 20 degree delta-t.

    The other concern with these reading from the system side is that system pump looks to be a Taco 007. We really haven't talked about system head. The operating curve of that pump to move 7.3gpm is a tad over 8' of head. Both zones would have have the same exact head loss to get that unless one was over pumping and one under pumping to provide a mixed return temp that gives an exact 20 degree delta-t.

    We spend time with a pencil and piece of paper to make that happen and these guys just slapped it together. I have a better chance of getting the winning lotto ticket then this happening,
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    This post was edited by an admin on January 11, 2014 8:08 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:43 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    when we took the readings, the outdoor temp was around 25 degrees, and it is around 55 degrees today.  we put both zones on and bumped the heat to 70 degrees, and the downstairs did reach this temp.  we did notice upstairs heats a lot faster than downstairs.  in about 30 minutes, upstairs went up 7 degrees.  downstairs did reach 70, and this was the first time we have ever been able to reach 70 with this new system.  it was at 65 and we bumped to 70.  had to sleep with fans on though! 
    we can try and do the 4 readings again on the boiler to see if that changes.  the gun is a bit volitile.  and we can do the readings in the room today a bit later on.
    in terms of baseboard, there really does seem to be enough baseboard, and there is not a lot of free walls where more could be put.  the thermostat is at the bottom of the staircase if that helps.  the downstairs layout is a bit choppy.
    so now what?  does this all seem to be working right.  I must say, with the temp outdoors being a bit higher, we saw the heat moving up faster.  a plumber mentioned to us that since the pumps were originally installed incorrectly and working against each other, he was fearful it could have damaged the alpine internally.   any thoughts?
  • Chris Chris @ 8:53 AM
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    Your Piped

    Primary/Secondary. That means the system pump has no influence good or bad on the boiler pump. Doubt you damaged the HX. So at 55 your ok but at low temps not. Curve needs to be adjusted and the. I would start putting my pennies away to have all the baseboard replaced with a higher output board. You ca. utilize the same footprint, ie a 5' of hi cap fir a 5' of regular residential. High capacity board is roughly 2" higher and will provide roughly 810 btu/hr per sqft of board.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 9:25 AM
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    ??? and ???

    Boiler is large enough based on the heatloss. There is enough baseboard, based on the heat loss. You can get 180 degree water from the boiler(running ODR) at 25 degrees, which(possibly) implies an incorrect design day parameter, but not one that should have created the problem they had. Just observations....
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:51 AM
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    Thought I would bring some info down to bottom of thread

    hot water baseboard heat
    ok thank you. I got the heat loss calc last night. It basically has measurements for each room in th house. it put the indoor temp at 70 dgerees, outdoor at 3, and system design hot water at 180. 1st floor heat loss at bth/hr is 31, 742, job total 45, 012. 2nd floor heat loss 13, 270, same job total. baseboard for 1st floor in fine/line 30 (lin/ft) is 56.5 and 2nd floor is 23.5. floor factor .09 on 1st floor, 0 on 2nd floor. infiltration factor .018 on 2nd floor in all rooms, and on 1st floor same thing, except 2 rooms have a .012. I have lots more numbers. just let me know what else you need. 2nd floor ceiling factor .05. I have exosed windows/doors per room as well. I can post the results, but it may be too small to see. let me know.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:03 PM
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    Tad bit

    Under radiated if conservative. So setback will struggle especially below design temps.

    We don't know how the 700 square foot room which has no heat is effecting heatloss of the rest of house. Cold partitions to heated rooms were they accounted for in the heat loss.

    Heat loss subjective to inputs of who ever did calcs.

    Why 170 baseboard temps if od temp was 25 and design was 3 in heat loss calcs. Boost mode? Supply temps while room temps are 70, and there is a heat call especially if outdoor temp is 55 today would be helpful

    Reset curve being correct?

    Set back coupled with odr conflicting control strategy.

    Are baseboard elements clean? Are baseboards blocked by furniture or window treatments?
    This post was edited by an admin on January 11, 2014 12:07 PM.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 12:33 PM
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    Questions and answers that just don't add up on face-value.The OP needs TRVs in their bedrooms, so the setbacks can be avoided.I think that as Chris said, there is something wrong with the math here, and the math doesn't lie. If the unit was in "Boost" mode for the readings, it was in boost mode for the time they could get heat to the house.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:16 PM
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    Wanted to increase boiler size when under radiated as a solution??

    Rep claims 5 * setback doable when under radiated??
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 12:33 PM
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    Can you clarify what you wrote

    hot water baseboard heat"I was just told that our outdoor reset disables at 25 degrees, and the water temp gets to 180 degrees in 10 minutes.  so with this information, does it seem like it is working right or no?    after 2.5 hours of trying to get above 66 degrees, I gave up yesterday.  even though it was 5 degrees out, the water should have been 180 degrees..."

     "What did you mean 'trying to get above 66 degrees, I gave up"

    When you are trying to raise the temp in the house, do you turn the thermostat all the way up, or???

    Also, for some reason we now have your house toasty while you did these tests.  Temp outside should probably have had you resetting to a lower temp than 180f so that may need some attention, but my question is what are you doing different during these tests that you didn't do while  'trying to get above 66 degrees, I gave up"?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:16 PM
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    Let's play

    The heat loss program is 20% padded.

    So that puts base boards a little over sized.

    Another variable we only know what the installer told OP not what they actually did with the boiler controls, in an effort to smooth out a situation.

    We don't really know head of each zone to figure flow rates. Maybe by a miracle as Chris pointed out even though second floor zone is less base board, the piping to get there makes the head loss equal to the 1st floor zone.

    But IF outdoor reset is properly set up we should not be seeing 170* base board temps, and 180* boiler temps above the 3* design condition now that the zones are up to a 70* setpoint! and the outdoor temps are well above 3* design conditions.

    I could see at first coming out of a set back in boost mode.

    We can probably say the previous owners maybe did not do set back, and old boiler was oversized so the issue was never an issue.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 11, 2014 1:20 PM.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 1:23 PM
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    Based on 600*lin/ft @ 180*...They have 33k+ first floor and 13k+ second floor?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:28 PM
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    510 as the out put for 170* to be conservative for the 30 right? Unless we can assume 4 gpm then use 540. 170 average water temps.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 11, 2014 1:29 PM.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 2:05 PM
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    Right or Wrong?

    They read 180* to 48000 btus of radiation, based on slantfins rating and got a DT of 20*. Can't we assume 4.8 gpm, which puts the head at about 9 based on the 007 curve?
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 1:48 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    things that were different to get to 70 this time were that we did not set back as much the night before, and we had both zones running at the same time, putting each one at 70. it was also higher outdoor temp out.  when I say I gave up after 2.5 hours at 66, we are comfortable at 64, and just wanted to time how long it took to go up to 70, so we  put it at 70, and after having it stuck at 66 for 2.5 to 3 hours, we gave up and put it back down to 64 because we were leaving the house and could no longer time it.  it seems like we are able to go up about 4 to 6 degrees in a reasonable amount of time, then it struggles slowly from there.  so if we set back to 58, we can get to 62 to 63, then is slowly struggles.  if we set back to 62, then same thing, can get to 66 or 67, then it is still slower after that.  so, I am guessing Alpine rep may be accurate that we can only set back 2 to 5 degrees without the recovery being very slow, closer to the 2 degree mark.  the baseboard elements are clean.  we do have some furniture in front of some baseboards, but they are pulled out so that there is space between the baseboard and furniture. 
    some of your posts are confusing for me.  bottom line, are you saying we don't have enough baseboard?  we have been told that we do, and there are not really any open walls to add more in.  yes old owners had oil, an oversized burnham, and I cannot comment if they set back, but I would assume so.  the baseboard is in good shape, and not terribly old.  2nd floor built in 98, and all baseboard appear to be around the same age.  also, is there something wrong with our outdoor reset or boost mode?  I am not fully sure what some of your posts mean.  the large 700 sq foot room could definitly be contributing to heat loss.  we have glass french doors to that room that are kept closed at ngith with insulated curtains on them, but that room does drop quite a bit at night after the gas fireplace is shut off.
    in terms of the outdoor reset, when it is 25 degrees or below outside, the outdoor reset has the boiler go straight to 180 degrees and not through steps.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 2:07 PM
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    This is getting ridiculous...It takes my computer about 30 seconds just to load this page.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 2:18 PM
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    I'm sorry

    I don't mean to be confusing if you are speaking to me.

    So, what you did different in this test is that you turned up the thermostat for both zones.  Plus,  you did not setback the night before.

    Sound right?
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 2:58 PM
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    Flow Check

    Hope there's a flow check in that circ for the DHW.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 3:13 PM
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    Isn't it, Paul.  This is new information.

    Baseboard heats fine with both zone valves open.  Does not do well with only one valve open.

  • Gordy Gordy @ 4:29 PM
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    Not curious

    There is only enough baseboard to meet the load at design temps. When they set back coupled with outdoor reset it's going to struggle, and not meet the load especially if only one zone is carrying the load.

    Usually the scenario is more than enough base board is there, and insulation upgrades where made after they were originally installed from years ago that allows a mod/con to benefit supplying lower temps to the system. I don't think this is the case here. Maybe the old oil burner was throwing 190 or more supply temps to the base board in the old system.

    Bob hit it in his post a long time ago, and ME "can't run set back with ODR" period.

    It's really counter productive. The ODR is doing the job of saving money if you let it, AND IF it's properly set up. The minute set back is thrown in the mix it's actually taking away any savings ODR was trying to accomplish. Because now it has to boost to claw away at that deep set back.

    The ODR should not even need a thermostat if the curve is properly set up. The thermostat could act as a high limit for solar gain to shut a zone down which in this case for some reason the upstairs is overheating, or is it. Has the op used lower temps that they want for upstairs and left things alone?

    There are probably a lot of little things that can add up in this whole problem. Thermostat locations especially upstairs, lay out of the rooms, how open is it to the upstairs.

    We are all trying to solve a problem with some of the information is subjective to pictures, and word. Except the temp readings we can not see all the piping, the controls etc to verify information.

    The boiler can put out over twice the btus for the loss the emitters can not.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 11, 2014 4:38 PM.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 5:33 PM
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    In General

    I don't think we were focusing any longer on setbacks, but rather the systems inability to ever reach temperature, at design day temps. We missed the opportunity to check the temps at the radiators during the cold snap. So, you have concluded that there is just not enough radiation Gordy?
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 5:55 PM
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    I'll be foolish again...

    For the sake of argument let's say the radiation on the ground floor calls for 3.3gpm, the 007 produces almost 10' of head at that rate.  If only the ground floor is calling for heat, doesn't it seem that that small of load is grossly over pumped by the 007?  Can't a too large pump start working against itself?  High head begets higher flow resistance?

    When the other zone valve opens things change at the pump.

    Just asking, you guys are the pros.  I'm just a student.

    I do think the ground floor needs more EDR.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:38 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so at this point, with set back being removed, does it sound like this system is working the way it is supposed to, or no?  I know there are lots of variables (outdoor temp, house layout, insulation, etc), but does this sound typical for the system to get stuck for hours at one temp?  yes it is warmer today, and it is heating up to a higher temperature at a faster pace today.  I have been using the upstairs thermostat more in the past 2 days, and it is fast, especially compared to downstairs.  but, that floor is significantly newer than the 1st floor, and the 2nd floor was not as fast several days ago when it was a lot colder out.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:15 PM
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    Using thermostat

    When you make that statement does it mean.

    A. Your adjusting it?
    B. it's on at the desired setpoint?

    I hope it's B.

    At this point leave the thermostats at the desired set points in each zone. See how system performs at the next cold snap.

    Some information I would like to know now is what are the boiler supply temps during a heat call with mild temps as you have now.

    Then what are boiler temps when the temps begin to fall in the 20's and lower.

    Now that the house interior temp has had a chance to maintain a steady temp it will be easier to see how well the boiler performs, and the reset curve that has been programmed.

    Typically if it's 55 today and the boiler called for heat you should not have 180* supply temps from the boiler, or 170 * baseboard temps. Use your new toy to verify.

    I know this is a pain sorry.

    Just don't fool with the thermostats set them and forget about them. Just observe indoor air temp readings from them at the most. And if the thermostat is calling for heat usually there will be an icon flashing when the thermostat is calling for heat if it's a digital one. What kind are they?

    You have to forget about the previous observations because I think they were skewed by the set backs you were using. Start from scratch.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 11, 2014 7:19 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:39 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yes, both zones have a temp that we set it at and leave it, but upstairs is lower.  I wanted to make sure the upstairs zone would also work, so I bumped it up 5 degrees from the new comfort point just to make sure that it could do it, and it did it fine today, but it is 55 out today.  It is going to be warm tomorrow too, so we will take temp readings again tomorrow.  If it get's into the 20's this week, we will re-do the temp readings then as well.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 1:36 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    outdoor temp today is about 42.  The temperature in the house was 64 degrees, we put the thermostat at 70 degrees.  In 15-20 minutes later, we did the 4 readings on the boiler.  The display of the boiler stated it was producing 175 degree water and the return was 160
    B- 160

    we did 1 baseboard temp reading-it was 174

    From how it was explained to us, we were informed that when we call for heat, the boiler starts out at 155 degrees (unless its 25 degrees or colder outside, then it goes straight to 180 degrees).  Every 10 minutes if the house is not at the temperture we set it for, the boiler ups the temperature of the water by 10 degrees.  (So we set the temp in the home for 70, if in 10 minutes its not at 70, the boiler will up the temperature of the water).  Once it reaches 70 degrees inside the home, the boiler will do whatever it has to do to maintain 70, so if it drops down to 69, it may only need 155 degree water to get it back up to 70.  We took the temperatures after 20 or so minutes, so the boiler looks like it had already uped the temp to 175 trying to get the home to 70 degrees.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 1:47 PM
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    We put the thermostat at 70 degrees

    from what?  I thought you were eliminating setback for the time being?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:53 PM
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    You set back??

    How did the house drop
    To 64?

    Why did you raise to 70?

    You need to pick a temp and leave it 24/7!

    Your new high efficiency boiler is no more efficient than an old cast iron beast this way.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 2:08 PM
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    Flash back

    I'm having a flash back to when I was about 4 sitting in gramps caddy overwhelmed with all the buttons and switches I could not help my self. My actions were met with a sharp slap on the hands.....don't play with the gizmos!

    We are trying to see what kind of temps your boiler will delegate at a steady state. That means leave the house at one temp a single temp you are comfortable at.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 2:06 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yes, we have eliminated set back.  the thermostat is left at 64.  the issue was never that the heat did not stay at a temp once it got to that temp.  the issue was that it had a hard time moving up in temp.  we moved the heat on the thermostat from 64 to 70 in order to call for heat and do the temp readings, then put it back to 64 once we were done with the readings.  to be clear, we no longer set back and do not turn below 64 at night, and it stays at 64 during the day.  this is  uncomfortable for us at night  and we now have to sleep with a fan on.  but, we absolutely will have times when we need to turn it above 64 for guests, parties, etc, and according to the Alpine rep and the company, the system should be able to reach 70 or whatever temp we needed if we had a need for it to be that high. 
  • Gordy Gordy @ 2:11 PM
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    Don't raise set point to take readings. Wait for the boiler to come on at 64 then take readings and observe boiler temps maybe I was not clear. Doing what you did put it in boost. I don't care about that.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 12, 2014 2:14 PM.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 2:22 PM
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    Bear with me here

    I know you've had a lot of advice and it's probably getting a bit confusing at this point.  I know it is for me!

    I've forgotten whether you're adjusting any of your boiler parameters or not, but given the history here you may want to consider jumping in.  I would set all the thermostats for 80ºF and leave them there.  Then I would adjust the ODR parameters until the indoor temp stabilized (at 65º or 70º or whatever you find comfortable.)  Disable the boost setting in the boiler.  Do not touch the thermostats during this process.  Put on a sweater if it gets too cold.  Open a window if it gets too hot.  It will take a few days, but your boiler will finally be able to do the job it was designed for.  After this process is complete, I would raise the curve at both ends by a degree or three and turn down the thermostats to the temperature I wanted in the house.  In areas which are too warm (master bedroom comes to mind), I'd consider adding a TRV.  If there are areas that are too cool, you might need to extend or upgrade the baseboard (or perhaps add some thermal blinds.)

    Sorry this has grown so long and complex.  The knowledge seems to have been forgotten in the past few decades and we are fighting to bring it back into the mainstream.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 2:39 PM
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    I believe Chris has posted a link to a TRV with a bypass, in the past. BBHH....the TRV would allow you to set your bedroom temp to whatever you want without cooling the whole house.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 2:54 PM
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    up stairs

    is a zone I'm assuming all bedrooms up there. Kind of wondering why its over heating?
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 3:29 PM
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    Overheating.  64* is uncomfortable.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 4:07 PM
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    To them.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 6:52 PM
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    Convection up the stairs

    Is probably giving them that temp.  I think somewhere up thread she may have mentioned that.

    Wasn't commenting on their choice of sleeping temp. 

    Sort of come full circle with the reason they wanted to setback in the first place.  And to think, the contractor was going to install a larger boiler.  It appears they have too much baseboard upstairs and not quite enough down.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 9:36 PM
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    is a feeling, not a number.  Adjust the ODR curve so the space is comfortable across the broadest range of outdoor temperatures.  Then you can start over-thinking stuff.
  • RobG RobG @ 3:28 PM
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    If I remember correctly, the upstairs is an addition? If so the insulation factors / infiltration is probably far different. This should probably be a two temp  / two reset curve system to be able to balance it out. Taco I series valve anyone?

  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 3:55 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yes upstairs is an addition. 6 inches insulation in walls. r38 in attic. 64 too warm to sleep in, prefer in the 50s for sleep. not sure what the acronyms mean.  
  • Gordy Gordy @ 4:13 PM
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    If this upstairs zone is say 55 or what ever you find comfortable. Does that temp stay there or tend to climb?

    So you sleep in the 50s and raise the temp during the day? If so why?
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:16 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    if the upstairs zone is set for 55, and the downstairs is set higher, 64, then yes upstairs gets warmer and the temp does climb.  is the question why do we like it cooler to sleep? doesn't everyone?  just sleep better with a cooler temp.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:46 PM
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    Just wondering if

    Upstairs stayed at desired temp is all. You would need a flame thrower to get me out of bed at those temps. But that's just me;-)

    Where is the upstairs thermostat located in reference to the bulk of rising heat from the down stairs?
    This post was edited by an admin on January 12, 2014 10:50 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:39 AM
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    Overheating upstairs

    If the upstairs set point can not be maintained low enough the questions in my mind are these.

    Is the upstairs zone thermostat located in an area that it can't see the elevated readings soon enough to shut down that zone?

    If the upstairs is on its own zone, and still over heats I don't see how TRVs will help control that unless the master bedroom is sealed from the rest of the upstairs. The op already has a zone set up. Question is if the zone is sensing the rising temps, and shutting down, or is the thermostat in a shielded location where it does not sense the over alll temp of that zone, and allows the zone to run to long.

    Maybe that problem is as simple as relocating the thermostat to where it senses the rising heat from down stairs.

    Another question comes to mind is if there is a flo check for that zone? Could it be ghosting adding to the over heat problem?

    I think the radiation is just enough to run a desired set point, and maintain that set point. But to run set backs , and lower water temps it is lacking a bit.

    Once a decent reset curve is implemented per SWEI's advice one will know better.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 13, 2014 7:13 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:20 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    2nd floors thermostat is inside the master bedroom.  is resetting the curve something we should do ourselves?  I would guess not
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:19 PM
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    If the thermostat is in the master bedroom where you most desire the low set point, and you keep that door shut then solar gain during the day is the only other thing that comes to mind to elevate the temp in that room.

    As others mentioned you have a different type of boiler that will lower your has bill if you let it. With that being said some life style habits may need to be changed with your set back habits.

    If you get the curve dialed in I think it will be much better. But setting the temp
    That low up stairs compared to the down stairs is really making the down stairs convect faster to the up stairs.

    I think you will HAVE to live with out set back to get the most efficiency your new boiler has to offer. Running on boost all the time really is not letting it run at its top efficiency maybe only in the high 80% range. This would hold true with ANY brand of modulating boiler.

    The lower the supply temp you run the more efficient they are.
  • Chris Chris @ 7:38 AM
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    Chasing a Ghost

    I've come to the realization that we are all chasing a ghost here.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Zman Zman @ 11:21 AM
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    I think the lesson here is to make sure you know the customers expectations.
    The customer used to have a very inefficient but very responsive boiler system.
    they now have a quite efficient and slow responding system. It  turns out this is not what they wanted.
    It is kind of like going from a gas guzzling SUV to a Prius. There is a trade off.
    I would still suggest that if the customer wants huge temp setbacks. they should set the t-stat to change settings much sooner.
    It should also be made clear that these setbacks will (and always have) actually make the system less efficient.
  • quack24 quack24 @ 10:53 PM
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    final ruling

    So what is the final ruling under radiated high expectations or just misunderstanding?
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 11:23 AM
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    Before it is done

    I'd still like to see the water temperatures while the system is at its normal operating set point. 64*~

    Still curious on that.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 11:40 AM
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    Things We Know

           The system, in boost mode will produce 180* water. We can only assume that it produced 180* water during the actic blast we just had. The downstairs of the home would not get above 66* during that period. Not enough heat was being emitted to counteract the heat loss of the area, which points to not enough radiation.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:15 PM
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    I think

    That arctic vortex period they were still toying wit the setback and we're probably below design temp of +3* Paul

    Like Chris pointed out the flow rates are a bit mysterious in that they had a 20 degree delta on a 55 degree day with 180 supply temps
    This post was edited by an admin on January 15, 2014 1:18 PM.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 1:58 PM
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    I (think) they set the design day at 25*, and the boost on a timer? Either way, we know the system will produce 180* water. The setback should lead to extended recovery periods( not good), but not as in this case, complete inability to recover.I'm afraid the truth is getting lost in the facts....complete, incomplete, or completely wrong, as they may be.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 2:13 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we still have been leaving it at 64, and not setting back.  it has been rather warm out the past few days, so no cold days yet to check temps.  We had the curve tweeked a bit, but I'm not sure to what.  I think our boiler is set for 185.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 2:40 PM
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    Water Temperature Readings

    On normal days would be interesting as well. 
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 3:16 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so we have a family member who just converted today to the superstore 45 and the alpine 105.  his house is half the size of ours, about 1300 sq feet give or take.  The plumber said that he put in the 105 and will tone it down to be more like an alpine 85 to 90, but the reason he did this was to make the hot water heat faster.  he said the full 105 will work to heat the hot water, and the extra 25,000 btu's will help recover the tank about twice as fast as the alpine 80.  he told us we should have gone with the 105.  any thoughts on this?  does this make sense, or is it just not efficient at that point?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 3:20 PM
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    It will make more DHW

    but the boiler is almost certainly going to short cycle during shoulder seasons.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 17, 2014 10:44 AM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:24 PM
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    Doesn't make sense

    Why put in a boiler that 25k btu's larger and then limit the firing rate by 25k btu's?

    And no, it will not heat the water twice as fast. It would only heat it 3/4 gpm faster at 105k btu's. Limiting the firing rate to 80k means it will not heat it any faster at all.

    Where has common sense gone?
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 3:37 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    will it short cycle even if they tune the 105 down to be more like an 85 or 90?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 4:01 PM
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    They can limit the maximum firing rate

    but that will not reduce the minimum firing rate.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:04 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    we thought it seemed odd too.  that is what they offered to do here at one point as well and we refused.  now if the 105 heats the water 3/4 gallon per minute faster, and our ssu45 takes about 20 or so minutes to recover hot water once all hot water is used, how fast would it take the 105 to recover the hot water once all hot water has been used?  the plumber was saying that the 105 would recover hot water in 10 minutes as opposed to 20 minutes.  is this wrong?  and you are saying if it is tuned down to the alpine 85-90 range, it can no longer heat the water 3/4 gpm faster anyways.  that is what we were thinking but we weren't sure if the alpine somehow acted different when calling for hot water then when it does for calling for heat.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:09 AM
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    45 gal.

    If it takes 20 minutes to heat a 45 gal. tank, how is increasing that by 3/4 gpm gonna cut the time in half? Do the math.

    A btu: the amount of heat required to raise temp of one pound of water one degree. There are 8.33 lbs. of water in one gal. Btu's are typically expressed in "per hour". Gpm = gallons per minute. Thus, btu's per hour must be divided by 60 to convert to per minute.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • RobG RobG @ 4:30 PM
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    Hot water

    To put it simply, if it takes 20 minutes to heat your hot water tank with an 80k boiler, to heat the water in 10 minutes would take a 160k boiler. (all things being equal).
    This is a very simple way to think about it. However it is not such a simple equation

    This post was edited by an admin on January 18, 2014 5:27 PM.
  • Hydro Hydro @ 2:39 PM
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    Alpine 80

    I have run into this problem, more than once, and I have to say that most of the time when the indirect will not keep up on these Alpine boilers it is the control parameters that are set up in the Sage controller set up menu. These are commonly set up wrong, and if left to the default menu, this setting is incorrect. Typically, most " factory reps." that I have encountered in the MA./ New England area are actually educated sales reps, employed by the wholesaler. Many are quite knowledgeable, however many more are not. It is very important to make sure these parameters are set properly and ruled out, as this is the number one reason for a IWH not keeping up with demand, in my humble experience.
    in the set up menu; System pump should be set to "Central Heat, Optional Priority"
    Boiler pump should be set to "Any Demand"
    DHW should be set to "Primary Loop Piped IWH"
    DHW Priority Enable is Optional (typically enabled)
    Also, in the adjust menu, under the DHW setting, the DHW set point should be set at 180 degrees. The common misconception is that this is the DHW temperature set point , when in fact this is the boiler water design temp. to produce the desired output of potable hot water. (some times techs. will lower this in the summer months)
    also in the DHW menu, Sleep Setback is 170 deg.
    Above Differential is 2 deg.
    Below Differential is 10 deg.
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there"
  • Hydro Hydro @ 2:49 PM
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    Alpine 80

    I would also like to say that I thoroughly enjoyed this thread, and all of the knowledge out there that was provided. I know I am late to the dance but just in case, I couldn't help chiming in just because in this area, there are many installers, but not many technicians.
    I see it all the time boilers installed without a proper heat loss, no combustion analysis,
    wrong controls, etc.
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there"
  • LCHutton LCHutton @ 6:29 PM
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    Some thoughts

    I found this thread as I have a similar “insufficient” heat issue. I’ll post an explanation of my problem as a separate thread.

    I can tell you that I’m very impressed with the dedication of all of those trying to help the OP and equally impressed by Weezbo’s, Ironmans’s and Rich’s explanation of flow resistance. I’m an engineer with 40 years experience with fluid flow in pipe & valves in power stations and can say that explanations are 100% correct. The only difference between their explanations and my experience is that in the power industry, we usually use different units. Instead of pressure loss in feet of head and flow in GPM, we normally use PSI and LB/Hr. It’s obvious that the OP’s installers only understand static head and not the resistance to flow caused pipe diameter, elbows, valves, coils, etc. (FYI, in some power plant pressure drop calculations we don’t even include static head because it is so small compared to the other pressures.)

    Before today, I had only heard of these High Efficiency boilers but did not even know how they worked, so I did a little research on what you call mod/con boilers. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood something in this thread but I see two issues:

    If I read the one post correctly, their heat loss is about forty five thousand BTU/Hr (45.012MBH). This fact isn’t significant but certainly contributes to their problem: According to the Burnham catalog, the net output of the Alpine ALP080B boiler is 63,000 BTU/Hr, not the 80,000 being used in some of the above calculations.

    In the Q&A section of another Burnham brochure it states: 
The Alpine boiler will work in most types of installations. For large water volume systems using cast iron radiation, Alpine boilers are a good choice. For high temperature systems, such as fin-tube style baseboard systems, or in homes where it may be impractical to vent a boiler directly to outside air without using a chimney, the Burnham ES2, Series 3, or Series 2 gas boilers may be a more viable option. A consultation with a professional home heating contractor will provide the best answer.

    So, since I’m certainly not very knowledgeable about heating, but just going from what I’ve read in other posts and a few catalogs, I’d say this Boiler is just not suitable for this application. It’s efficiency is derived from running water at much lower temperatures while this house’s baseboard system was designed for higher water temperatures. Furthermore, based on the above descriptions, my guess is the setback thermostat confuses the boiler’s control system.

    The problem is the OP was sold the wrong Boiler and its capacity is marginal. I don’t know enough to say if additional baseboard will help or if the solution is just a higher temperature boiler. While the Rep adjusted for 180°F water, that boiler’s efficiency wasn’t based on that temperature. Also, the flue gas temperature could be an issue at that temperature.

    This reminds me of an issue with other equipment that wasn’t working properly. The manufacturer, supplier and installer all knew what the problem was but they were all afraid that whoever was the first to suggest a solution had to pay for that solution. Here, the supplier doesn’t want to replace the ALP080B with an ES2-4 or Series 3, Model 304 or a different brand.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 7:24 PM
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    Alpine 80 output


    You are looking at the net IBR output, and not the DOE output. Net IBR is when the boiler, and piping are in an unconditioned space so you need to derate the output. So the DOE output is 73K.

    Even if it is a high temp emitter installation you still benefit through modulation in fuel savings with a mod/con boiler. Running on low temp emitters such as radiant adds to the condensing efficiency which is a little extra icing on the efficiency cake, but most of the gained efficiency is through being able to modulate the boilers output to the load. This is not the case with a cast iron boiler with a bang on, bang off control strategy.

    In all reality there should be plenty of boiler for this heat loss calculation, but then that is subjective to whom did the calculation. Another observation that needed to be made was if the emitters were ample enough to heat the space with this type of boiler running lower water temps to reap some of the condensing efficiency.

    Usually in a boiler replacement the home is over radiated, and original boiler is oversized due to envelope upgrades that may have been done to an older home (no one ever complains about having enough heat) IF the original installer did the math right (never trust another person).

    You are correct the setback the HO Is trying to use is confusing the boiler control strategy. With these types of boilers they are best left to let thier own logic drive the system if setup properly. With VIessmann Boilers there is no thermostat (its an option).
  • SWEI SWEI @ 9:29 PM
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    Baseboard and mod/cons

    To add to what Gordy wrote
  • LCHutton LCHutton @ 1:20 PM
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    Additional info appreciated

    Thank you for the correction. I just guessed that the lower value would be the realistic output (your mileage will vary, etc.) but you did confirm the output of this boiler is less than the 80 MBH being used in this thread.

    Thank you for the link to the presentation. I showed that my concern regarding 180°F water is not warranted. However, I believe it indicates that their 160°F return might be an issue.

    Also, on page 30, it shows that additional heating surface area is required when the circulating water temperature is reduced. That's logical. Their baseboard heat was designed for a constant temperature (probably around 180°F) whereas the new system is supposed to vary the output water temperature based on the outside temperature.

    I believe that I was correct in saying this mod/con boiler is not suitable for heating the OP's home using the existing baseboard heat.

    I presume that when there is demand for DHW, the boiler defaults to its highest output temperature. If not, you can't heat the water in the storage tank to 135° if the incoming water is only 120°F.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:07 PM
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    You are incorrect

    In that this boiler is not a good boiler for this home. You only need 180 supply temps on the coldest design day which is only 1% of the heating season........usually.

    The output btus are there all most double the heat loss calculated if done correctly.

    As the OAT warms the supply temp can be lowered this is done by outdoor reset. In this particular case their aggressive setback is being counter productive to the ODR logic there just is not enough emitter to catch up to the load coming out of set back. There is more than likely issues that can not be put together to solve this issue when we are all 1000's of miles away,and over the internet.

    Such has already been posted sometimes lifestyle changes need to take place. I for one am anti setback unless your going to be out of town for the weekend, or longer, or are on a high rate utility(oil,LP,electric). Or if you have a poor envelope to begin with.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 11:29 AM
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    So how is it working?

    HWBH - Haven't heard much from you.  How are you doing with your system?

    Any changes?
  • LCHutton LCHutton @ 10:54 AM
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    You are correct

    that it is tough to solve their problem from 1000's of miles away and I was incorrect to say that their new boiler is not suitable for their installation because, as I said I'm not an expert plus we don't have enough details to say that. If I knew enough to solve their problem, I should be able to solve my problem.

    However, to paraphrase the manufacturer regarding their Alpine boiler:

    For high temperature systems, such as fin-tube style baseboard systems, ..., the Burnham ES2, Series 3, or Series 2 gas boilers may be a more viable option.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:52 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so far without setting back and having the curve changed a bit, the heat seems to be able to maintain that temp.  if we have needed to bump the heat up for when guests come over, it has been able to do that.  our bill has gone up substantially, but it has also been a cold month and we have been running the gas fireplace a lot as well, so I guess that is expected.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:13 PM
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    Is a lot of your gas bill that is probably 30-40k btus so if your using it a lot to heat that's the bulk of your increased billing. Gas fireplaces are not real efficient for solely heating a space, more for ambience than anything. Most of the btus go up the chimney. You need to get some baseboard, or panel radiators in that space.

    Is the boiler still mostly running on high fire 100% modulation! or is the reset curve dialed in better?

    Also you can't confuse your gas bill being high with colder than normal temps. Do you really have anything to compare to with the old boiler, and similar weather conditions?
    This post was edited by an admin on January 28, 2014 10:17 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:23 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yea I think the fireplace is either 40,000 or 60,000 btu's.  we have been told that we cannot put baseboard in this room, or it is not a good idea, because it is above an unheated garage, and freezing pipes could be an issue.  I'm not sure what the curve was reset to.  I am not sure how to tell this.  
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:38 PM
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    Yeah that's almost like running another boiler.

    As for the heat to the garage anything is possible if done right. A vented wall hung gas heater would be far more efficient than that fireplace.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 1:14 PM
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    Bad Info Again

    You've been given incorrect info again. If pipe freezing is really an issue, there are controls that exercise the circ at selected intervals to prevent freezing. Or, you could simply add glycol to the system. Given the fact that you have 3/4" piping throughout most of your system, it shouldn't require much. There will be a slight decrease in heat carrying ability, but adding more BB would more than compensate for that.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:52 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    actually the fireplace is 65,000 btu's.  didn't realize it was like running another boiler!  hopefully the alpine 80 can support baseboard in this room then
  • LCHutton LCHutton @ 2:31 PM
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    Take advice of the experts

    I've re-read much of this thread and based on my limited knowledge, it seems as you should be following the advice of the experts who have responded. For example:

    If the pump is too small get the larger one installed.
    If the piping is reversed, get that turned around. Temperature stratification in your tank might be limiting your DMH supply.
    Pick one temperature for the second floor and set it. If the bedroom is still too warm close the vents.
    Pick one temperature for the first floor and set it. Do not turn it back. A set back thermostat is not always a cost saver: Picture this:

    Let's say it's 3° outside and the thermostat is set to 70°F. If you then set it to 75°F, it will take a certain amount of time for the inside temperature to reach 75°F. Now, take all of the furniture out of the house and turn the thermostat back again to 70°F. When it reaches 70°F, turn it back to 75°F. Do you see that it will less time to heat the house from 70°F to 75°F when there is not furniture inside? That's because, not only does the heating system have to heat the air and walls inside your house, it has to heat the furniture as well. The more furniture and other mass you have, the longer it will take.

    In this scenario, your system can provide the 45 MBH to maintain the constant 70°F. The problem is that it leaves only about 25 MBH to heat the other stuff. Also, and someone needs to check my math, 25 MBH can heat about 3/4 GPM of water from 50°F to 120°F. So, even if the outside temperature were in the 30's and the house was set to 62°F and the boiler provided 50 MBH to DMW, you would still only get 1.5 GPM.

    I didn't find how big your storage tank is but if you want 35 gallons of hot water for a bath, you'll need a bigger tank.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 1:44 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    ok thanks for the info.  We would really like to add baseboard to this room, 24 by 28 feet, since the gas fireplace is not efficient.  should the alpine 80 be able to support adding baseboard in this room?  We have been told yes and no
  • Ironman Ironman @ 6:00 PM
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    Should Be Fine

    I don't remember your exact heat loss numbers, but if think your current BB radiation is capable of emitting 40-45k btu's. That means at 73k btu's output, the boiler has another 28-33k btu's available. That room shouldn't need more than about 23k btu's, maybe less. What was your heat loss calc for the room?

    Remember, you get about 500 btu's per foot for standard BB. That means if the heat loss is 20k btu's, you need 40 feet of BB. There are higher output BBs if space is an issue or you could look at using panel rads (my choice).
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 30, 2014 6:03 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 6:49 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I just took a look at the heat loss calc, and there is not one done for this room.  Would that be because it has no baseboard, or should that room have been done too?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 7:32 PM
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    You need to do one. You don't need to re-do the entire house. Just do it separately or edit the previous one to include this.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 7:45 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    is there a way for us to do the heat loss calc on this room, or do we need to get the company to come back and do it?
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 8:03 PM
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    Is the ceiling of the garage (floor of this room) insulated?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:49 PM
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    Heat loss calc

    I thought you had it already. As a matter of fact, I thought you had posted it somewhere on here, but I'm not willing to read through 475 posts to find it.

    On another post by Nasdaqam there's a link to download the SlantFin heat loss program which you can use to calculate it.

    In all honesty, if there's nothing unusual about the construction, the previous numbers I gave you of 20-23k btu's should be more than sufficient to cover it. Having extra emitters is a good thing, so if in doubt, add a little more BB.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 8:29 PM
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    hot water baseboard heating

    I'm not sure if there is insulation in the garage ceiling.  the old owners built the garage, then later built the room on top of it.  I would assume a builder would put in insulation before putting in the flooring, but I'm not sure.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:53 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I did post the heat loss calcs.  they did the heat loss calcs for all rooms in the house with baseboard, but not the room with the gas fireplace or the basement room since they do not have baseboard.  I will see what I can do about getting this done
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:25 PM
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    Not Included?

    They should have been included in the heat loss calcs since those areas contribute to the heat loss of the structure.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 11:01 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I just checked again and the room was definitely not included in the heat loss calc. all other rooms were done but this one, and the basement room
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:40 AM
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    Unseated room

    How do you get to this unseated room through French doors on the main floor, or second floor?.

    I thought you described it of the main floor many, many posts ago?
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:10 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    this room is on the main floor, and there are french doors to it
  • Gordy Gordy @ 5:42 PM
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    To understand

    The garage is basement level with the unheated bonus room above which is entered through the main level.

    Is the rest of the basement below grade, or partially exposed...............Im going somewhere with this..............I think.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 11:02 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    yes the garage and basement are the same level.  the garage is above ground, basement partially above with a walk out, and the large room sits on top of the garage on the main level of the home.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:22 PM
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    Conditioned basement space?

    Is it heated?
    I'm guessing not.
    If it is conditioned, or not what temp is it down there usually?
    This post was edited by an admin on January 31, 2014 11:26 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:29 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    no both the garage and basement are unheated.  I don't know the temperature down there, but it is cold since it is unheated.the basement is a little warmer than the garage, probably due to it being under the kitchen, partially under/above ground, and having the heating equipment in it.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:08 AM
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    Don't know

    What anyone else thinks but an unconditioned daylight basement is probably adding extra load to the main floor.

    Wondering how the main level floor detail inputs were done on the heat loss.

    Is there insulation in the floor between basement, and main floor?

    Does the basement foot print match the main floor foot print?

    I'm thinking the heat load calc may be a little off. The boiler is probably still big enough, but it changes things with emitters being big enough.

    Maybe I'm all wet on this thought hard to say with out knowing basement temps. The old boiler probably warmed the basement considerably more than your new one though.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 1, 2014 11:15 AM.
  • Rich Rich @ 11:19 AM
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    might have found something pretty large .  Most guys I have encountered don't enter floor values when the system is not a radiant floor system . There can be quite a bit of downward loss .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 11:22 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    there is insulation in the basement walls, and 1/2 of the basement is finished so I do not know if there is insulation in the ceiling on the finished section. there is no insulation in the rest of the ceiling in the basement.  there is a wood burning stove in the basement, and I'm gussing it may be against fire code to have insulation in the ceiling due to this??  are you suggesting we need more baseboard due to the basement being unheated?  the old boiler was cast iron so I'm sure it did heat the basement more
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:35 AM
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    If the heat load calc

    Did not account for the floor being over an unseated space.....maybe.

    What are the temps down there is a big question....50's 60's.

    This maybe a case of unintended consequences. That being the basement temps may be much lower now than before with the new boiler. This may be something that unintentionally got missed in the load calcs.

    Just throwing an example out there so you understand. In my particular load calc changing the living dining area floor input to an unconditioned space with out floor insulation jacks the load up by 6000 btus. This is with a -10 design day the room size is 15 x34.

    Your design temp is not as low I think so it may not be as,adverse as my example.
    If your main floor had a space below that may have been upper 60's verses now being Lowe 60's or upper 50's that changes the load on the main floor.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 1, 2014 11:42 AM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 12:27 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    I don't know the temp in the basement, but we would estimate in th 40's.  the basement is not as large as the main living area because the dining room was an addtion.  without taking measurements, I would esitamte the basement is about 34 by 24.  knowing all this, are you suggesting we need more baseboard?  and what about having the alpine 80 be able to support adding basement in the unheated 24 by 28 bonus room?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:51 PM
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    There is an old saying

    Doctors have it easier than Veterinarians because Vets can't ask their patients questions...... Feeling a little of both with this thread.

    You have your infra red thermometer let's use it!

    If your basement is indeed in the 40's which I find hard to believe.....maybe. It is adding additional load to what ever heated space is above it, also any heating pipes in this space that are not insulated are losing the btus they are trying to deliver. Either you insulate the floor to keep the space above from the additional load, or you condition that space.

    Now I'm shooting from the hip with this layout of basement verses main floor verses second floor. Heated space verses unheated spaces sounding all hodgepodge to me.

    If you can picture this any time there is an unheated space adjoining a heated space it adds additional load to the heated space it's called a cold partition in a heat loss program input. If that cold partition is not insulated the load goes up to the heated room be it a wall, floor, or ceiling.

    This is starting to make a little sense if my assumptions are correct. Your main floor is struggling with the load be it coming out of set back, or a cold snap. Because what's below, and next to it are adding load that may not have been compensated for in the heat loss program, or in the amount of baseboard to heat the space as is.

    The unknown is the actual heat loss program math that was done so this is all speculation.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 1:35 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    the basement is definitly in the 40's, as is our large room above the garage.  that large room is tyically 48 degrees when the fireplace is not on.  of course the temp changes depending on the outdoor temp.  the IR gun has the basement at various spots between 43 and 47 degrees.  and it is in the mid 40's out today.  it's cold down there.  so, can this new alpine 80 support baseboard in the large room, as well as in teh basement?  are you suggesting we heat the basement?  I do not know if we can have insultation put into the ceilings of the basement.  we had a plumber come to take a look at our basement due to the waterline freezing in the fridge, and he thought that due to the fire code, we could not put insulation in the ceiling with a wood burning stove down there.  occassionally, we have used this wood burning stove on very cold nights to ensure the water line does not freeze again.  sounds like the heat loss was not done properly.  the heating company contracted out for someone to come and do the heat loss
  • Gordy Gordy @ 3:22 PM
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    You have bigger issues

    In my opinion than that boiler, which brings us to the boilers output which now the output rating gets dropped down to the IBR rating of 63000, and not the DOE of 73000 because it is in an unconditioned space.

    I think you need to get some heat in the basement, and that bonus room. You need to do the heat loss calcs like ironman pointed out earlier. Is your water service down in that part of the basement?

    Once you do that you will know if the boiler is big enough. If the area where the boiler is is reasonably conditioned you can go back to the 73000 doe rating.

    The floor above must be like walking on a block of ice bare foot!
  • SWEI SWEI @ 3:35 PM
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    Using the NET rating

    also assumes the boiler is not cycling on and off much, eliminating the need for a pickup factor.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 3:40 PM
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    No Insulation Because of Wood Stove?? Code???

    I know that any type of legislation is possible in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts, but no insulation because of a wood stove? Seriously?

    Is this code or was this plumber just another fountain of mis-information?
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 4:11 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    not sure how good this plumer was, only used him once, and we are waiting for an insulation company to come by to get more information on this.  the water meter is in the basemen.  the floor is cold in some areas, but not in others.  maybe they put down insulation before putting down the flooring, but not in the ceiling of the basement?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 4:25 PM
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    500 posts

  • Gordy Gordy @ 5:57 PM
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    Condensed format

    Could actually be a learning tool for homeowners.

    First off detailed information is imperative for quick quality help with a problem.

    It's like taking a car to a mechanic, and saying the thingamabob is making a noise can you fix it?

    Insulation. Do it one time, and pay one time done.
    Heat loss calculation
    Emitter choice, and sizing
    Boiler choice, and sizing

    They all go hand in hand folks.

    And if you don't want to insulate setback is not going to cut it if comfort is top of the list.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 1, 2014 5:59 PM.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 11:27 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    so the heating company should have taken into account the unheated basement I'm gathering.  and they did the heat loss calc wrong I guess.  they didn't get much right apparently.  is this alpine 80 ok given the basement is unheated.  insulation company has been called weeks ago to fix this problem, but again, due to having a fireplace in the basement, there is a concern to put insulation in the ceiling if the fireplace ever sparked.  the entire house is insulated to the max.  the basement ceiling just does not have any, but the walls do. we are hoping the alpine 80 is the right size for the house before we get stuck with it for good. 
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:03 AM
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    Not understanding

    The fireplace insulation problem at all. There are all kinds of ways to detail out a fireplace, or wood burner heated room with insulation......unless this wood burning fireplace is some kind of code violation.

    A question comes to mind reading your statements about insulation. Was the installer of the boiler under the impression the insulation was going to be done?
    This post was edited by an admin on February 2, 2014 1:06 AM.
  • Paul48 Paul48 @ 7:26 AM
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    Over 500 posts and nothing is getting solved because the ABC's keep getting jumbled. Start a new post, because that is where this one is anyway.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 2:42 PM
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    A New Thread

    You are the one who must start a new thread. This one is waaaay too long an confusing.

    Please understand also that we're not seeing, hearing or experiencing what you are. Most of us are hundreds or thousands of miles away. You are the only eyes and ears we have on the job. The only info we get comes from you. We are just reading words and making mental images from those words and then trying to give you accurate advice. If the info you give us is sketchy, scattered and inaccurate, then how can we diagnose your problem? Most of the info given has been like trying to catch a chicken in the yard that keeps darting in a different direction every time you get close to it. Please stay focused on one thing at a time and give as much pertinent info about it as you can. Do your best to answer all questions a particular pro asks and if you don't know the answer tell them so but find out how to get it.

    We pro's have also been somewhat to blame here also as every time a new piece of info is given, we chase that like a pack of hungry hounds rather than staying with the previous question til it's answered.

    It's taken nearly 500 posts to learn that there are rooms that were not included in the load calc, have no BB and aren't totally insulated. That should have been ascertained early on.

    Gordy has just ask for some specifics and a new thread. Let's give him those, get the answers needed and stay on one issue until it's resolved.
    Bob Boan

    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 9:00 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    no the installer has no idea that we want insulation done.  we had our fridge water line freeze several weeks ago, and this is when we realized that insultion needs to be put into th ceiling of the basement.  the installer measured our baseboard, then immediatly said based on our baseboard length, we need an alpine 80.  a heat loss calc was done 1 month after the boiler was put int
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:38 AM
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    Paul's right

    Now you are telling us the installer sized the boiler to the installed emitters, and Installed the 80. THEN did a heat loss calc?

    Start over. I'm dizzy
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 10:48 AM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    sorry if this has been confusing.  but yes, I've said that all along.  they sized our boiler to the baseboard, and never did a heat loss calc before installing the new system.  we learned what a heat loss calc was 1 month after we got the new boiler, and demanded one.  they said they do not do heat loss calcs unless putting in new baseboard or new construction, but agreed to do the heat loss calc anyways.  they contracted out for the heat loss calc, and the heat loss calc got done 1 month after the new boiler was put in.  also, the unheated basement was known this whole post as well since we have 2 zones, 1 upstairs, 1 downstairs on main floor, and boiler in the basement. 
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:27 AM
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    With over 500 posts

    You have some of the best hydronic heating minds in the country excluding myself helping you.

    All these little pieces of information get lost, or get harder to put together. The longer the thread gets the harder it becomes. The original problem was insufficient DHW, and tthings evolved from there. Trying to put together extracted information with offered information.

    So the offer to install the 105 came after the heat loss calculation from an outside source.

    And as far as the basement goes not many are in the 40's, upper 50's low 60's yes. I will add you could have a zone for the main floor with emitter in the basement off that particular zone.

    As far as I'm concerned your project needs to have a heat loss done of ALL spaces.
    Then an emitter check, and installation of proper amount of emitter sized to the load of each room. Then a boiler output that matches the load. Maybe the 80 is still big enough won't know with out the heat loss is done.

    The basement won't need ceiling insulation if you condition the space. If you don't then yes you need to insulate the floor. You have to decide.

    Anyone else?
    This post was edited by an admin on February 2, 2014 11:31 AM.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 1:58 PM
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    Anyone else?

    Why, yes.

    Evidently the garage is somehow separated from the 'basement' even though they are on the same level.  The bonus room is above the garage.  I would doubt they will add an emitter in the garage, so, the ceiling in the garage portion of the basement will have to have insulation.

    Now there is an issue with water pipes freezing in the basement.

    There is a wood stove involved somehow.

    Miles back in this thread I think it was Rich that had a contractor ready to help out in the saga.  I wish they had taken him up on it.  Somewhere about a year from now HWBH is going to need annual service on the boiler and how are they going to get good service from the current contractor?

    You know, the crew that didn't even do a heat loss on the house before sizing a new boiler for this house.

    The same crew that piped the primary/secondary backwards.

    And put the wrong circ on the indirect.

    And piped that backwards.

    With no mixing valve at first.

  • SWEI SWEI @ 3:00 PM
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    Ack, indeed

    this really points to the potential value of a reinvigorated RPA certification program, along with some marketing and perhaps even manufacturer buy-in for warranty coverage.
  • baseboardheathelp baseboardheathelp @ 2:07 PM
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    hot water baseboard heat

    the house is a bit funky with the lay out.  the garage, the bonus room, the dining room and the 2nd floor were all additions all at different years, so the layout is unusual.  yes a wood burning stove in the basement is odd....the house came with it.  the garage is a half flight lower than the basement.   we will not be using this company for anything else, and definitly not to service the burner in a year.  we are stuck with what we have at this point. we would like a good reference for someone in our area for future use.  
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 3:29 PM
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    Don't wait for the future...

    Get a qualified person there soon.  In the event that they have indeed installed an incorrectly sized boiler better to find out now while your original installer has stated that they would swap out for a 105.

    You have nothing to gain by waiting until next year.
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 3:28 PM
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    End of Winter

    Well, the end of winter is here.  How did you eventually make out with your boiler/insulation issues?

    Please let us know and post on this new thread:
  • knotgrumpy knotgrumpy @ 3:31 PM
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    Just for reference, the original post on this thread.

    Hot water baseboard heatingwe just converted from oil with a Burnham burner, 14 years old, to gas with a high efficiency Alpine burner, and we have baseboard heat.  The oil heat was quick, heating the house 5 to 10 degrees in about 15 minutes.  the gas heat with the Alpine is so slow, heating the house about 1 degree every 20 to 30 minutes.  is this normal? the company who installed it said it is, and that if we want it to be more efficient, we cannot turn the heat down.  this sounds crazy, and we do not want the heat so high while we sleep, and prefer to turn it down, but it is so slow to heat the house, and so it is cold in the morning for hours.  can someone elaborate or help with this?
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 8:11 AM
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    The oil heat was quick

    In my house, with a mod-con heating a radiant slab at grade, and some oversized baseboard heating the other zone, changing the temperature one degree in the radiant zone takes about 24 hours, and in the baseboard zone, at least 4 hours.

    This is not  because of the fact that anything is under radiated, but because the way the system is designed and programmed. Actually, the boiler is about twice as big as it needs to be and I could heat this house to just about any temperature I want it to be, as long as I do not mess around with the settings.

    The reason I can raise the temperature so slowly is because the outdoor reset is programmed to provide only a tiny bit more heat than the heat loss (and this excess only to deal with imponderables such as higher than normal wind and resulting infiltration, and lower than normal heating from the sunshine).

    My boiler does have a boost feature where if the load is not satisfied in a certain period of time, it boosts the supply 10F and tries that. If the time expires and it has still not satisfied the thermostat, it boosts the supply another 10F, etc., until it does. There is a limit to how much it will boost the supply temperature. But to run the system normally, that boost interval needs to be a couple of hours in the baseboard zone, and over 12 hours for the radiant zone, so I just abandoned the idea of using setbacks at all.

    As a homeowner, I conclude that if you want to make the outdoor reset work best (at least for a mod-con), you do not want to run setback at all. Get your efficiency from the reset (and condensing), and forget about setbacks. If you want your bedroom cooler than the other rooms, shut the door of the bedroom and adjust the hot water flow through it to be a lower temperature all the time. I do that by partly closing the valve supplying the hot water to that room.
  • Rich Rich @ 10:56 PM
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    I cannot believe there is still information coming to the surface here . 
        Fireplaces and basements Oh my ! The basement is not a magical place where fire takes on a different face than on another elevation . Insulate with Roxul Safe and sound , put a 2 hour rated fire assembly (2 layers of  5/8 sheetrock ) and call it a day . Insulate under the Bonus room above the garage with the highest R value possible . Is the garage ceiling sheetrocked I hope ? Add the appropriate amount of heat in the bonus room also .
     I have heard of no less than 7 installs similar to this one using this very same combination of equipment ( sizes vary ) right in Northern Mass . I feel as if I should contact the Mass Attorney General to start an investigation into deceptive practices and impersonating a heating contractor .
    Dennis Foley Plumbing Inc  , Somerville Mass .   
    Vanaria plumbing  ,   Braintree
    Emerson Swan ,  Bruce Marshall ,  Randolph .  This gentleman may know of others that could help you in the area . He is a trainer and works for a distributor there . He will certainly know the correct people near you .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Eastman Eastman @ 11:24 PM
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    What is the problem now?

    I thought the ultra sluggish heat and DHW issues were resolved.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:37 PM
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    It is but it's marginal. Now I understand why.

    Did not add up in the fact of the heat loss being in the 40k ish range, and a boiler with 73k doe.

    I think the installer just let it rip full fire to keep peace, and all mod/con efficiency is lost. Purely speculation on my part

    What they have is a living space inside a refrigerator, that is inside a freezer so to speak.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 2, 2014 11:44 PM.
  • Eastman Eastman @ 11:55 PM
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    It's not all lost, but yeah I think we're getting the picture

    If I remember correctly, the original install was bungled, then fixed, possible boost function change, then the ODR curve was tweaked. Now we're hearing about this bread putting layout of conditioned and unconditioned spaces. With all these unconditioned spaces and a typical ODR curve, the system is going to struggle when the delta between conditioned and unconditioned is pushed.

    In a nutshell, sounds like the home is under radiated / under insulated for the expectations/life style of the homeowners, but yes this needs to be confirmed. The solution I guess is really then to give up on the bottom of the ODR curve, or install a boiler controller that uses indoor feedback.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:03 AM
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    Step One

    Also known as the Room By Room Heat Loss.  Recommended roughly 500 posts ago.
  • Eastman Eastman @ 12:18 AM
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    wasn't this done eventually

    and everything came out good?

    More importantly, I'm afraid if everyone did a correct room by room heat loss as the first step, there would be no heatinghelp wall.
    This post was edited by an admin on February 3, 2014 12:28 AM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 11:49 PM
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    To HWBH

    Please take Rich's advice. Get a competent contractor in there to access your whole envelope, and heating system so as they can come up with the most economical, and efficient solution.
  • Chris Chris @ 9:55 AM
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    Time for

    This system to be reversed engineering. Start from scratch with heat loss, capable emitter capacity, etc and then see what should actually have been installed and then see at what design temp the existing equipment begins to tap out.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • quack24 quack24 @ 10:39 PM
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    scrolling down is getting old

    Just posting so I can subscribe and not have to scroll down every time
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