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    Probably a question you are asked alot.. (36 Posts)

  • Tom Tom @ 6:16 PM
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    Probably a question you are asked alot..

    Sorry Guys,

    I don't do steam, it's nothing I ever really got into and the reality is there are guys who are much more capable. BUT

    I have a customer who just called me and has a 4 unit apt house and tenants are complaining. The system is a one pipe steam and is controlled by one tstat in a small living room on the first floor. As you all already know this leads to hot and cold areas. Typically 2nd floor has the windows open and the first floor is turning up the heat due to a draft.

    Can anything be done to help this chimney effect and should I just convert this to a 4 zone hydronic system. The boiler is definitely in its last couple of years of service.
  • nicholas bonham-carter nicholas bonham-carter @ 7:28 PM
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    4 unbalanced units

    Make the steam work with good main venting, and maybe a better thermostat in a better location. Take some pictures of the boiler, and it's piping, and we will have comments.
    If you change to hot water, the system sees 20 times the pressure, and will leak. In addition, the radiators may not be large enough to heat with hot water. Some radiators are for steam only.
    This system worked well in the beginning, and your job is to fix what changed.--NBC
  • Rrey Rrey @ 8:50 AM
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    My new favorite quote!

    NBC, That's going on the wall of my shop.
    "The system worked well in the beginning, Your job is to fix what changed."
    That summarizes where to start, what to touch and what to leave alone.
    Start where others have meddled and not with the original design.
    Thanks for the Quote!
  • Jamie Hall Jamie Hall @ 7:40 PM
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    There are asuredly things

    which can be done -- short of spending a bundle on converting.

    First step is to check your main venting on the steam mains.  You want plenty of it -- it's almost impossible to over vent a main.

    Second step is to check your boiler pressure -- it should be no more than 1.5 psi when the boiler shuts down.  This is right at the lower limit of a normal pressuretrol, so it may be a little finicky to get it set down -- but set it as low as you can without having the pressuretrol come apart.

    Third step is to take a look at the venting on all the radiators.  In general, a slower vent will result in less heat to the room, so you will want to slow down those radiators upstairs.  Get good vents -- big box stores are not usually that good.

    Might check the heating in the room with the thermostat -- it should be pretty normal for best results, and as NBC said there may be a better place for it..

    Last possibility is that it is possible to obtain thermostatically controlled vents for one pipe steam.  They are a more expensive than regular vents -- as you might expect -- but they allow each vent, and its associated radiator, to be temperature controlled individually.  They work just fine!
    Jamie

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-McClain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • ChrisJ ChrisJ @ 8:36 PM
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    TRVs

    I love the two TRV's I have on my system and its only in a single family home.  I can't imagine how big of an improvement they would make on a multi-family building.  In my non-professional opinion TRVs along with some sort of boiler control with outdoor reset  would be a must.  It will keep everyone happy and save a ton of fuel.
    Weil-McLain EG-45 connected to 392sqft of radiation via two 2" risers into a 3" drop header and 2" equalizer. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

    Steam system pictures updated 6/5/14.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/thetube0a3/Boiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCImUxIqv9436MQ#
  • Tom Tom @ 7:18 AM
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    Not so simple

    I guess my question is less simple than I thought.

    The TRV's are exactly the kind of thing I am interested in. If it was hydronic thats what I would do, I didn't know you could TRV steam.

    Gentlemen,

    I don't want to convert the old system to water, I want to remove all of it put in high output baseboard, lower the temperature of the water and let a mod/con cook away on it.

    The customer was hoping for a cheaper quicker solution for the winter then to start the project this spring.
  • ChrisJ ChrisJ @ 8:32 AM
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    cheaper quicker

    Wouldn't it be both a lot cheaper and quicker to install proper main venting, TRVs on all radiators and a steam boiler controller than to rip it all out and install a forced water system?
    Weil-McLain EG-45 connected to 392sqft of radiation via two 2" risers into a 3" drop header and 2" equalizer. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

    Steam system pictures updated 6/5/14.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/thetube0a3/Boiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCImUxIqv9436MQ#
  • mcsteamy mcsteamy @ 9:06 AM
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    You say...

    You say "less simple" but there are even homeowners here who are laughing at how easy all of this really is.  Balancing out a steam system is a piece of cake if you know what you are doing.  Installing a 6" drop header?  Not so much.  So don't throw in the towel, don't dump the system.  Just do a bit of learning and you will save the building a lot of money and be able to pat yourself on the back. 

    As suggested, you need a ton of venting on the end of the main.  Use either Gorton #2s on what we call a "tree" or you could use a few really big thermostatic traps, like a Monash 48, as main vents, if the end of the main is in an unfinished area.  This alone will probably help balance out things much better than they are.  Then you just need to attack the vents on the individual radiators.  If you can get your hands on a stack of Dole #1A vents, I would use those to provide tenant's some ability to throttle down the steam.  Or, just use carefully sized fixed vents like those sold by Gorton. 

    Get this right, and you'll pretty much be there even without an outdoor reset.  But put that outdoor reset on, and you'll really be golden.  Converting an entire steam system that has been in place for 100 years over to water is thoroughly unnecessary and a really bad idea.  Your job is to fix their heating plant, which is very easy, and cheap.  Not to give them a heart transplant because that's all you do.  Now that you know this is easily fixed, be honest with these building owners and get it fixed, either by learning yourself or calling in someone who can teach you.  Then you can add "I fix steam systems" to the list of things you can offer to customers.

    EDIT:  I read this as four floors initially.  You only have four UNITS?  This thing is probably smaller than my house, which is about 5000 square feet (and at one time was four units).  When we moved in, it wasn't balanced at all.  It took about $200 in parts and three hours to fix it.  On something this size, you really don't even need an outdoor reset.  Put the 'stat in a common hallway under lock and key.  The system will balance with Dole 1A adjustable vents set at "6" and if tenants are too hot (or cold), they can dial down or turn up the vents, once they understand how to use them.  You could get Hoffman 1A vents, which are easier to find, but they are not as nice as the Dole vent unless you like lots of fiddling.  Do NOT give those tenants Heat-Time varivalves.  In a rental, that's just going to be a source of constant aggravation.  Now if you slap on some TRVs, that's just gravy...

    And what makes you think the boiler is on its last legs?  Treat it right, and 50 years is not unreasonable.  Gotta love a lot of heavy cast iron...
    This post was edited by an admin on December 6, 2013 9:24 AM.
  • nicholas bonham-carter nicholas bonham-carter @ 8:43 AM
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    Keep the steam, and make it work

    The heat problems in this building would never have been tolerated when the building was first built. It sounds like a real steam pro is needed here to make some relatively inexpensive changes to undo the years of neglected maintenance.
    If you have a car with dragging brakes, do you automatically buy a new car; or fix the brakes?
    The baseboard will not be as good a match for a mod-con boiler, as cast iron radiators. Post some pictures here of the boiler, and it's piping, and we can advise.--NBC
  • Tom Tom @ 7:35 AM
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    my wife is right...

    I don't know how to properly communicate!!

    Ok Guys just follow me for a second:

    Option 1, Fix whats there to work efficiently and properly to provide heat to all 4 apts.

    Option 2, COMPLETELY REMOVE steam system and all piping and all radiators, install ModCon boiler install baseboard, zone properly give each tenant a tstat and roll.

    I would like to option 1, but because I am absolutely over my head with steam systems, I am asking what can I do to make this converted 4 apt house work better? Probably was fine when it was a single family home.

    I have done NO STEAM systems in my life, so talk to me as you would a child and the next time I am there I will take some pics. As for mains I have no idea will need to check when I go back.
  • N/A @ 10:31 AM

    option 3

    Hire a real steam pro
  • ChrisJ ChrisJ @ 10:55 AM
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    rjb

    Tom,

    Please ignore rjb.
    If you want to learn steam there is absolutely no reason you will not be able to.

    I am completely sure with the help of those on this forum you yourself will be a steam pro in no time. As you said, take the pictures and post them and we will gladly help you.
    Weil-McLain EG-45 connected to 392sqft of radiation via two 2" risers into a 3" drop header and 2" equalizer. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

    Steam system pictures updated 6/5/14.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/thetube0a3/Boiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCImUxIqv9436MQ#
    This post was edited by an admin on December 7, 2013 10:56 AM.
  • N/A @ 11:11 AM

    ignore me?

    Who are you as a homeowner comes off saying that...??? The OP already had made up his mind with going with fhw system,. I suggested option 3 because he had NO expericnce with steam system. By hiring a real steam pro, getting the system back in order and SAFETY educate the OP. Get off of your high horse and being a homeowner of a steam system does not make you a expert of the entire trade.
  • ChrisJ ChrisJ @ 11:20 AM
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    homeowner

    rjb, I thought Mr Holohan had made his opinion of homeowners on this forum clear on a previous thread which you were part of?

    I do everything I can to help others out and contribute to the forum and will continue to do so. I also always do my best at being nice and try to get along with everyone the best I can. After all, the #1 rule on the forum isn't asking much of people. The OP is asking for help working on the system and learning a new skill. "Hire a pro" will not achieve this. I never claimed to be an expert, however there are many on this forum who will gladly help the op.

    Perhaps telling the OP to ignore you was harsh and inappropriate and I apologize for that. However my fear is such comments will scare people away from learning and that is never a good thing.
    Weil-McLain EG-45 connected to 392sqft of radiation via two 2" risers into a 3" drop header and 2" equalizer. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

    Steam system pictures updated 6/5/14.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/thetube0a3/Boiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCImUxIqv9436MQ#
    This post was edited by an admin on December 7, 2013 11:35 AM.
  • N/A @ 11:34 AM

    public have been hurt by steam boiler systems

    Dan H. stressed this and re read ALL his writings about why the public should hire a real hydronic heating company, not just plumbers because the system have pipes nor forced air company because its heating.. I'm not comfortable as well many others here about giving people advices that had no clues about steam system for liabailty reasons. Yes, there are great books for homeowners that Dan wrote, also in those books, he stressed to get a real steam pros to walk you thru the system and SAFETY EDCUATED.
  • ttekushan ttekushan @ 2:33 PM
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    Public have been hurt by every heating system

    So yes, the statement that steam heating systems have hurt the public (probably not all 330 million people!) is technically true in the sense that all combustion or heating devices have done so. Hot water boilers have exploded. Forced air furnaces have pumped combustion gasses including Carbon Monoxide throughout a living space. Water heaters have exploded. Danger lurks with this stuff despite the comfort afforded by familiarity. That comfort can be misplaced indeed.

    But I doubt that Tom is in the category of hacks who would bypass safety devices in a life threatening way or do something else stupid or harmful. He knows he doesn't know steam in particular. That's fine. Live and learn. Venting strategies seem fairly low risk to me. No one here's suggested wiring out the pressuretrol or LWCO!

    I do, however, understand your sentiment if only there were some assurance that each sizable community had a real steam pro. Countless steam hatchet jobs have been prevented or corrected by the good folks here. And plumbers so advised have done some decent work too.

    The majority of steam systems I encounter are botched up in at least one major way. Most of these I've encountered are botched by large, established, local firms that advertise their specialty in boiler based heating systems. I had one of these firms' "steam guys" tell me "There ain't nuthin' you can do about that kind of problem. That's the way steam is." It was a situation nearly identical to this thread's subject. I balanced it. Had an insulation firm thermo image the place. Used Gerry Gill's "balancing a steam system with variable radiator venting" publication as my source material for the client to see. The client was still gun-shy after spending good money after bad with the major reputable firms. I finally blurted out, "If it doesn't work, I won't charge you anything." He looked at me slackjawed for moment, then gave me the go ahead. It worked. I got paid. He's happy.

    Next!
    terry
  • MDNLansing MDNLansing @ 7:35 PM
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    Road Trip

    Would you mind coming to Michigan, blurting that out in my basement, then proceed with helping me replace my boiler :)

    Try as I may, I just can't seem to get that clause in the scope of work agreement with the contractors available here.
  • ChrisJ ChrisJ @ 11:38 AM
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    Pro

    The op stated he has a customer which leads me to believe he is in the HVAC business.
    Weil-McLain EG-45 connected to 392sqft of radiation via two 2" risers into a 3" drop header and 2" equalizer. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

    Steam system pictures updated 6/5/14.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/thetube0a3/Boiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCImUxIqv9436MQ#
  • N/A @ 11:45 AM

    hvac means nothing

    Hvac means nothing if the company not specialized in hydronic heating.. same goes for plumbing company... btw, I'm a licensed plumber specialized in hydronic heating which I rathered do. Plumbing is too easy as everyone think they are weekend warroirs and do everything what the big boxes tell them to do.
  • Jamie Hall Jamie Hall @ 12:12 PM
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    In general...

    I am somewhat sympathetic to some aspects of rjb's comments -- particularly in two regards: one can get seriously hurt, or create a potential for rather expensive property damage, through improper plumbing, heating, electrical, burner, etc. installation and maintenance practices.  No question at all.  Second, that there is the very real potential for liability.

    Before I go further, let me point out that I myself am not a "professional" in any of these trades -- I have never held anything beyond a journeyman's license in them (all of them, though, I might add).  What I do and who I am is, I think, reasonably well explained in my signature line.

    All that said, though, I would add a few other comments.  First, that a goodly fraction of the really horrible knucklehead jobs I have come across have been perpetrated by licensed professionals who were operating outside their areas of expertise; one of the most important aspects of doing work, or offering advice, is to have a very clear understanding and acceptance of what one does or does not know.  Second, I have also come across some really superb work done by non-professionals (as well, obviously, as some of the professionals who help on The Wall).  Third, it would appear that the OP is, in fact, a professional who would like to understand steam systems a little better and expand his knowledge and abilities, which I think is marvelous.

    The potential for liability problem is very real indeed, unfortunately, but it is not confined to heating or indeed any of the building trades.  Rather it is a very sad commentary on our society as a whole that we are, as a group, afraid to help our neighbours and others in need because we are concerned that some greedy lawyer and "victim" of our help will sue us.  The lesson we are to learn, it would appear, is that if we see someone in trouble, or asking for help, we should pass by on the other side.

    Merry Christmas
    Jamie

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-McClain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    This post was edited by an admin on December 7, 2013 12:12 PM.
  • Mark N Mark N @ 12:59 PM
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    Steam Seminar

    Tom have you ever considered attending Dan Holohan's "Dead Men's Steam School"? Give it a try if you're in this area, also purchasing the "The Lost Art of Steam Heat" would be a wise investment in your business if you have customers with steam heat. Also there are other places on this web site for info other than the Wall. Under the Resources tab above check out the Library and under the Systems tab check out steam.

    Mark
  • Dave in QCA Dave in QCA @ 1:11 PM
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    Dan Said,

    Be Nice and don't talk price.

    There is an amazing amount of knowledge and help that is passed freely between folks on the fantastic forum. Questions come form all sorts of sources, homeowners, contractors, steam pros (with a particular problem that is puzzling them), and the list goes on. Information, some spot on, and other times not, also comes from all sources. The only qualification for participating is that you have a question, or an answer. Being that this is a free and open exchange of ideas, there is no implication that the information offered up is 100% accurate. This is a forum, not an online consulting engineer service.

    About a year ago, one of the most dedicated and knowledgeable responding helpers on HH suddenly took leave and his presence and knowledge were sorely missed. It was all over a totally unnecessary and offensive online smack down that had taken place. Something that very rarely takes place on here. Thankfully, the person did return and is again offer great help and assistance.

    So gentlemen, I would ask that you follow Dan's Rules, Be Nice! And, if you can't do that, at least keep your arguments and insults private. You can message each other without posting the insults in this thread. On some base level, the smack talk is entertaining, but most of all, it is just embarrassing. So, Please please, please...... be nice!
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • ttekushan ttekushan @ 1:28 PM
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    Thing 1, Thing 2, Thing 3

    Hi.

    The simplest thing would be to simply move the thermostat to the second floor.

    Okay, that's perhaps a little too simple, But I have found 1st floors in old houses to be the coldest due to an actual chimney effect through the structure up to the attic. I've also encountered old apartment buildings with the same issues. Open a plumbing access door in the wall space and it's like a wind tunnel. In one place, I opened the crawl space plumbing access above the 4th (top) floor ceiling and I could smell the cigarette smoke from the 1st floor tenant's apartment! I always say, "Start with the envelope! "

    Thing 1: Blower door test the house! You mentioned the chimney effect when windows are open. I'll bet it's there when they're closed. You're going to address this involuntarily at some point, especially if you put individual heating units in and people start comparing heating bills. Some will be twice the others and then you'll have to look at the heat losses. Why not just do that now and save a ton of trouble with the heating system?

    Thing 2: Balance the system as others so thoughtfully advised, and then add TRV's in hot spots, like southern exposure rooms, etc.

    Thing 3: Move the thermostat to the 2nd floor. ;-) Or, better yet, an outdoor reset boiler steam boiler control like a Tekmar 279 with several room sensors if necessary.

    Heat loss must be addressed. Then balance the system. This is the most economical avenue.

    Unless heat loss is irrelevant.
    terry
    This post was edited by an admin on December 7, 2013 7:20 PM.
  • MDNLansing MDNLansing @ 7:07 PM
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    Sidetracked

    This thread kind of went off course trying to find out who knows more, the homeowner or the pro, so I'll try to steer it back to helping you a little.

    Your original posts seem to indicate you are a FHW contractor and a client has asked you to help with a steam system. It also sounds like the system will be replaced with a FHW installation and you just want to ease some of the pain this winter. So, here's where I perceive you're best move and investment to be.

    As mcsteamy stated, vent the mains and use TRV's. Venting the mains will increase the systems efficiency right away. Do the mains currently have vents installed? If so, how many and what kind? Also, when the boiler fires, do you hear them venting, and do they close once steam hits them?

    As for the overheating, TRV's will work great for you, and they can be used with the FHW installation. Most capillary style valves work on both so you can add them now and save them. I don't have any personal experience with them, but I do know people on this forum claim they work great. As for using one brand over the other, maybe a pro can suggest the best ones? Mcsteamy seems to have some experience with them so he might be able to assist with that.

    If you're just looking to help the system out in the short term, I don't think you need a steam pro for this. Venting and TRV's can certainly be installed by anyone mechanically inclined. And with your FHW experience I would assume you are. It doesn't make any sense to argue steam vs hot water here, mostly because your client wants the conversion. It surely wouldn't make much sense for you to lobby for keeping the steam when you can't service it properly anyway. There are lots of arguments supporting steam heat, but I doubt you came to this forum looking for advice on how to run your client off to a steam pro and loose the business. Post some more info on the venting and we will help you size new ones and guide you on how to install them if they don't exist already.
  • JStar JStar @ 7:17 PM
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    Steam

    This thread is incredibly unfortunate. It's painful to read everything in the bottom half. Ugh!

    BACK ON TRACK

    Tom, where are you located? We may know a steam expert in the area that is willing to make a consultation visit. He can assess the system in person and give you a written plan of attack. Learning steam in one day through a written forum is a daunting task.
  • ttekushan ttekushan @ 7:19 PM
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    Sorry.

    See ya.
    terry
  • JStar JStar @ 7:21 PM
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  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 7:43 PM
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    If I am paid to go there

    I will go anywhere to install steam. I charge what I always charge, plus travel, plus andy special licensing I need to get if it is a one off for a given area.
    As to the original post. Photos would help. Dan's books will help you a lot!!!  Hiring Steamhead or one of the other pro's that do steam would also be a good idea if reading is not your thing.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Tom Tom @ 7:02 AM
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    WOAH!

    OK, OK I will read books, I will call a different specialist, just stop arguing!!

    A little background apparently is needed. I do only hydronics and controls. I post a bit on the other sections of this forum.

    I won't respond to any of the off point answers.

    I have read some helpful tips and have had some nice offers to help so thank you.

    I agree that the blower door test, insulation and windows are the first place to start.

    Allow me to take some pics and revisit this post in a couple weeks.

    Thanks again
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 4:20 PM
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    Thanks, Charlie!

    Tom, where are you located? 
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • Tom Tom @ 4:25 PM
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    Vermont

    Central Vermont is where the job is located.
  • Steamhead Steamhead @ 4:29 PM
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    Can't hurt to ask

    Charlie from WMass if he'd come up. Not sure how busy he is, but he's great with steam!
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"

    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists

    Oil & Gas Burner Service

    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
  • Jamie Hall Jamie Hall @ 4:34 PM
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    Amen, brother

    Charles is one of the best -- and I know he will do central Vermont.  He may be pretty busy these days, but he'll make time.

    And the best of it is that he will work with you -- and you will learn a lot!  Give him a ring.
    Jamie

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-McClain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • Charlie from wmass Charlie from wmass @ 11:18 PM
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    I do have a customer in Rutland

    is it much North of there? Sure I go that far, just as Jamie said this is a busy time of year I would need to work it into the schedule. Call me in the evening we can discuss the details if you like.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
  • Tom Tom @ 6:01 AM
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    Charlie

    As soon as I get the ok I will call you or email you to schedule something, I do have a steam pro locally as well. This system is in the 7-8 grand a year in oil consumption range, seems pretty high to me. Hopefully the homeowner will do what I recommended and have an efficiency company come in and do the blower test and walk him through the ways he can save money.

    I will still try to get some pics for you all.
  • nicholas bonham-carter nicholas bonham-carter @ 10:22 AM
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    First step

    Put a 0-3 psi gauge on the system, and you can see how much more venting is needed on the mains. Observe as it fires up from cold, and see what the pressure is during the venting phase. Anything over 2 ounces is wasted fuel pushing the air out through inadequate main vents.
    Probably, when you get the venting straightened out, the rest of the balance problems will disappear.--NBC
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