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    New boiler, Insufficent heat (86 Posts)

  • Melhe Melhe @ 11:46 PM
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    New boiler, Insufficent heat

    I have a large house built in 1995 with radiant heat system. Because the master bedroom getting cold we called a contractor and changed new boiler Weil -Mclain Ultra series 3 with new uponor system. Based on their calculation, master bedroom need 13100 total room load. great room need 30660 total room load. output temperature set 120. return around 100. Unfortunately, Master bedroom is still very cold. When the outside temperature dropped to 20s, the bedroom temperature dropped to 50s. I have to live in the guest bedroom this winter. The contractor came back changed master bedroom pump to TACO variable speed delta T and purged water inside tubing. But it didn't help. When I feel the MB tubing temperature output and return, they r nice and warm like other rooms. but the floors on master bedroom seems not warm... The contactor told me I should demolish the basement ceiling and install proper insulation under master bedroom which was not done initially. because of the heat loss, the temperature doesn't go up. It seems not making sense to me because other part of the house was in normal temperature esp great room much larger. they were all not proper insulated at the time of building of the house. The only problem is the master bed room. The ceiling of basement which is right under the MB is normal temperature and the basement temperature is the same as thermostat settings.... That part of basement was finished , decorated.... Before I spend another 8k to demolish the basement ceiling to install insulations. ( I am sure there are additional costs to refinish basement ).  I'd like to ask experts here what else could be the problems that mb doesn't generate enough heat. 
    Please help, many thanks
  • Melhe Melhe @ 12:10 AM
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    Some details

    I d like to post a few pictures to help understand the situation . The first picture showed zones in mb , master bath and dressing room
  • Melhe Melhe @ 12:49 AM
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    Additional info

    Current outside temperature is 18F
    Current MB temp 56.  ( setting 71 )
    There are two zones inside master bedroom. Both in 120, out 95- 103
    Floor temp inside MB  62-67
    Floor temp other rooms. 77-81
  • Tom Tom @ 6:57 AM
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    Hmmmm...

    What size is the master bedroom, I know you stated how many btu's but how big is it? If possible how many loops feed it?
  • Melhe Melhe @ 9:35 AM
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    Size

    It is 725 sf With lots of windows . i installed cellular shades recently . not helping much . I don't know how many loops . I only know there r two zones for that room. Forget to say . Master bathroom and dressing room r cold as well. All the rooms belong to that zone group in picture 1 r cold ....
  • Pughie Pughie @ 1:00 PM
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    Floor covering

    What type of floor covering for the MB Zone?
  • Melhe Melhe @ 1:19 PM
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    floor cover

    Hardwood floor throughout the house
  • Paul Pollets Paul Pollets @ 1:05 PM
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    Application + Insulation

    You don't mention how the MB is heated. Embedded or Staple-up? Climate Panels or Quick Trak? If the contractor used a software program to design the system, (ie Uponor ADS) there are "what-if" queries that can show water temp requirements depending upon floor covering and insulation values. 120 won't do much if there is no underfloor insulation or a staple-up application without transfer plates or insulation. Do it right or do it over!
  • Melhe Melhe @ 1:29 PM
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    MB heating design

    I am not sure how detail designed under the MB, But I know the loops r embedded inside concrete slab. But the original designer didn't put insulation under it. My question is why other part of house without insulations doesn't have problem with temprature, But MB zones r the only zones have problem. I even couldn't keep the temperature inside small walkin closet which has no windowns and door is closed all the time.
    I am wondering if there r possible any blockage through the piping because there r small rust and water leakage though the piping under MB in the past before the construction.
    Have you guys heard of infrared thermographic scanning to detect if any blockage or leaking? would it help if I hire some thermogapher to check it out?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 1:44 PM
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    Slab?

    Is this gypcrete over pour.

    The btus are going somewhere, and not up. You stated you have a lot of glass area in master bedroom.

    Is the master bed room on the north side of the house?
    Does it not get solar gain like rooms that do heat well?

    1. If you want to use that low of water temp you need insulation under the floor.
    2. Could be a flow rate issue.
    3. Could be circulator sizing issue.
    4. Could be restricted loops, but you have flow gauges on the manifolds right.
    This post was edited by an admin on January 26, 2014 1:46 PM.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 2:30 PM
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    floor temp

    Yes, there are lots of windows. No matter what. I think it shouldn't feel freezing cold in the room 53 degrees. When I step on the floor in the MB, The floor feels really cold as well.  As soon as I step out of those zones. Floor feels warm again.
    I don't know the detail design original built because I wasn't not the original owner of the house. I forwarded questions to the contractor . hopefully ill get answer soon
  • Melhe Melhe @ 7:08 PM
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    Please advise

    1. If you want to use that low of water temp you need insulation under the floor.
    I don't want to use low water temp. He put boiler output as 150, but return water only 100, so when they mix up, the system output only 120. There is no manual adjustment to decrease return water volume into mixers.  Can I put boiler output 170s and try and see? He told me the tubings we use originaly has certain type of coating. The max temps should flow through the tubing should be no higher than 140.
    2. Could be a flow rate issue. on the flowmeter it said 0.8. its automatic setting. not sure how to adjust
    3. Could be circulator sizing issue : It was changed to TACO variable speed delta T( 00-VDT), Is it large enough?
    4. Could be restricted loops, but you have flow gauges on the manifolds right. How can I find out?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 2:23 PM
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    Did anyone mention

    that there appears to be no outdoor sensor installed?
  • Melhe Melhe @ 2:31 PM
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    outdoor sensor

    I don't think so, would that be any problems?
  • Melhe Melhe @ 2:33 PM
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    outdoor sensor

    the contractor said he'll install after system stabilize . it shouldn't affect anything now
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 2:45 PM
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    If you do not connect the outdoor sensor to a W-M Ultra 3

    It will run at the maximum temperature end of the boiler reset curve for whatever thermostat input is in effect (the highest priority one; i.e., the one with the lowest number that is calling for heat). The highest is usually #1 that is by default, an indirect hot water heater.
    The next highest is usually #2. And what circulators are running depends on how the control is programmed. Normally, input #1 runs only the circulator to the indirect. Normally, input #2 runs both the boiler circulator and one of the system circulators. If it is set up wrong, it might run only the boiler circulator, or it might run only one of the system circulators. Both would explain cold results.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 3:10 PM
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    Outdoor sensor

    I don't understand your post in detail. Do you mean without outdoor sensor the boiler will not prioritize the call from room temperature , instead it will prioritize the hot water calls?  yes, he limited hot water heating to 6-7 min each time. But I will relay your post to him to get outdoor sensor installed.
    I thought the purpose of outdoor sensor is really to get the heating system shut down when outdoor temperature gets too high.
  • Jean-David Beyer Jean-David Beyer @ 4:30 PM
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    I don't understand your post in detail.

    I am sorry I was unclear.

    "Do you mean without outdoor sensor the boiler will not prioritize the
    call from room temperature , instead it will prioritize the hot water
    calls?  "

    No, I did not mean that. I meant that the boiler will continue to use the priorities, with priority #1 to be the most likely to run, then priority #2, then priority #3. And by default (and I see little reason to change it) priority #1 is for the Indirect, priority #2 is normally used for the first heating zone, and priority #3 can be used for another heating zone.
    Each has its own reset curve (although the indirect does not actually reset).

    What I meant was that if you do not connect the outdoor sensor, the boiler assumes it is maximum cold outdoors and puts out the hottest temperature that the reset curve associated with that particular priority provides, irrespective of what the outdoor temperature might be.

    "yes, he limited hot water heating to 6-7 min each time."

    For my boiler, which is oversize (it is the smallest Ultra 3 there is), so I have no trouble getting enough heat. I live alone, so my hot water needs are modest. I allow the top priority indirect hot water heater to run up to the default of 30 minutes because I have never seen it run over 15 minutes anyway, and it runs only twice or perhaps three times a day, so it does not matter to me if it steals this from heating the house. I figure I might as well let it restore the maximum.

    "But I will relay your post to him to get outdoor sensor installed."

    Go ahead if you like. What would worry me is that if he needs the contents of my post, it almost certainly indicates that he did not read and understand the installation manual. The contractor who installed my Ultra 3 had the same problem. It seems a matter of honor to not read the installation manuals. Maybe that works for coal fired convection hot air furnaces, but is sure does not work for mod-con boilers. It was a real surprise to find out that I knew more than the installing contractor did about the boiler they sold me.

    "I thought the purpose of outdoor sensor is really to get the heating system shut down when outdoor temperature gets too high."

    Not really. It does do that; that feature is called Warm Weather Shutdown, that will turn home heating off, but leave the boiler alert when the indirect needs heat. The default warm weather shutdown temperature for the Ultra 3 is 70F outside temperature.

    But the main purpose for outdoor reset is so that the boiler will put out the minimum possible heat consistent with keeping your house warm enough. With the outdoor sensor connected, and the reset curve properly adjusted you almost do not need an indoor thermostat at all. As it gets colder out, it increases the supply temperature of the water to the radiant floors (if you have them) or your baseboards, panel radiators, etc. As it warms up outside, it reduces the supply temperature and the house keeps the temperature you want.

    If you have a high mass system (one of my zones is slab at grade radiant), this keeps the temperature very even with no overshoot or undershoot.

    But the main advantage is that the lower the supply temperature, the more efficient the heating of the water is because the difference between the fire temperature and the water temperature is greater, and so the heat flows into the water that much more efficiently. A secondary advantage is that the lower the supply temperature, the lower the return temperature will be, and if it is low enough, the exhaust will condense and give you up to about 10% more efficiency than if no condensing were occurring.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 5:56 PM
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    Thanks for the explaination

    I really appreciate the detail explaination.  I checked my boiler setting. Priority one was not set up if any different it makes.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 6:37 PM
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    priority setting

    Sorry my mistake. Just checked,  He set priority 1 as domastic hotwater
    priority 2 is the radiant heat for rest of the house. Priority 3 was not set up
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 3:07 PM
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    It looks

    to me like you only have flow going through one loop on that manifold. Based on what the flow meters are looking like. Make sure the thermal actuators are snapped on tight. I have seen many of them partially popped off. That prevents the valve from opening. Also check to make sure they are wired properly and receiving power. Could be a blown fuse in the zone control module.

    You are correct. The floor temps should be higher with the architecture as it currently stands.

    Harvey
  • Melhe Melhe @ 3:36 PM
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    Pictures

    I tried to check . It seems all blue caps r tight on . The wire panels all lights r on . I don't understand in detail . Just took a couple of pics . First one is the electric panel . Another is the flow meters of the both master bedroom zone tubing . It seems have flows . I don't know where else I can check to find out where has loopings without flow
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 11:53 PM
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    So you are saying

    that all the zones/rooms connected to that particular manifold are not heating properly and the floors are staying cold?

    Harvey
  • Melhe Melhe @ 12:15 AM
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    That is correct

    There r total 32 zones in the house . All those 6 zones in that manifold are cold . Other zones r able to maintain the temperatures
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 12:17 AM
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    So you actually

    have six individual zones coming off of that six loop manifold? In other words. Each loop goes to an individual room?
    This post was edited by an admin on January 27, 2014 12:19 AM.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 12:28 AM
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    Yes , that's correct

    Only master bedroom, kitchen , living room Dinning room supplied by 2 zones ( loops) . Rest rooms garages , hallways , bathrooms r supplied one zone per location . This time changed new boiler , I didn't connect the snow melting loops to the boiler . Because we never used it. Before , if I need connect that as we'll , one boiler is not large enough
  • Melhe Melhe @ 12:21 AM
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    Master bathroom

    Master bathroom zone belong to that manifold is somewhat warmer . I can feel the floors warm . Maybe it's marble floor with better conduction ? But not enough to raise room temperature to the settings . Both master bath and closet temp is about 61, 62 . But master bedroom . I don't feel any warmness on the floor . Room temp stays bw 54 to 56

    But if outside temp raises to 50s . The master bedroom temp can reach the set temp 70s
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 12:30 AM
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    I should clarify some

    terminology here. A zone will have a thermostat. A manifold will have multiple zones/thermostats. The loops coming off the manifold will be dedicated to a certain zone/thermostat. Some zone have multiple loops some only have one.

    How many zones are on this manifold? How many loops are going to the MB? Hopefully they are labeled?
  • Melhe Melhe @ 12:43 AM
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    Clarified

    Sorry , I just clarified with my hb . There is one manifold with 6 zones / loops . There are two loops going in master bedroom controlled by one thermostats . Other 4 goes to master bathroom , master bath tub, dresser room/ hall way , sitting room , Master bath and master bath tub sharing same thermostat as we'll
  • Melhe Melhe @ 12:52 AM
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    My mistake again

    There r actually 4 zones in that manifold . Because there r only 4 thermostat there . But 6 loops
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 12:34 AM
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    Also

    what part of the country are you located?
  • Melhe Melhe @ 12:45 AM
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    Zone 6b

    Northeast . Zone 6b . It is exceptional cold this year
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 1:16 AM
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    I live in

    the northeast as well, but I'm not sure what zone 6b is. And you are right, it has been a little nippy this year!

    Now you have 2 loops going into the MB. Each loop has .8 GPM @ a 20 degree difference between supply and return. That means you are putting 16000 BTU's into the space.

    Floor should be warm but it isn't.

    You have 3/4" hardwood floor above the heated slab and 3/4" wooden subfloor beneath the heated slab. The heat from the slab will travel close to the same speed down through the subfloor into the joist cavity as it will up through the hardwood into the room. So we know that your joist cavity is uninsulated. So I wonder if the ban board is insulated and sealed. The ban board runs along the outside perimeter of the floor joist framework. It is 1-1/2" thick. So in effect, if that space is uninsulated, and not sealed, you only have a very thin leaky wall right there. Even if that section is only 1' tall, you could still get enough air infiltrating the space to suck away all the heat from the floor.

    Maybe you should insulate?

    I most certainly wouldn't rip down the whole ceiling though. I would just cut out a narrow strip and have the joist cavities blown full. Then replace the strip, finish it and repaint so it blends in.

    Shouldn't be that hard or costly :-)


    Harvey
  • Melhe Melhe @ 8:25 AM
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    Where r u located at

    I am in New Jersey . Thank u so much for the advise . I was told the whole ceiling need to be demolished and refinished after the insulation . I appreciate ur advice . If u close by . Please contact me and give me a quote if u can help
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 12:08 PM
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    I am

    in South Central PA about 30 miles west of Harrisburg. It would be a couple hr. drive to Jersey.

    I don't do either drywall or insulation. I can but I choose not to, ever! Insulation is itchy and drywall is dusty.

    If you need consultation I can do that. Just click on my user name and then click the contact button.

    Harvey
  • Melhe Melhe @ 6:20 PM
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    insulation

    Thank you for the advice. I asked contractor insulated the floor under the master bath today which is right above the pool room. Pool room has drop ceiling , so its easy to install insulation. Its not cold outside today. But I'll give it 24 hours to see if it make any difference...
  • Zman Zman @ 4:21 PM
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    Loops

    Are you able to determine which loops service the under heated area?
    Can you confirm the flow rate and supply/ return delta t on those loops specifically?
    Once you are positive the btu's are being delivered, it then makes sense to talk insulation.
    If your issue is inadequate flow, all the insulation in the world will not fix it.
    Carl
  • Melhe Melhe @ 6:37 PM
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    supply/ return data

    All loops in that manifold doesn't work well ( under heated ). the worst two loops r under master bedroom.
    How can I find out detail supply/ return data except flow meter? I can take additional pictures if needed. Please advise.
    There r 32 zones in the house. only this 4 zones not working well.
  • Hydro Hydro @ 6:12 PM
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    Radiant

    I agree with Zman,
    In the picture it looks like the loops are not balanced properly, (if every zone on that manifold is calling), turn up all thermostats serving that manifold, and when the red and yellow lights are lit up on the zone control module serving that manifold, check to make sure that the flow is the same for all of those loops. Adjust the knobs on the corresponding loops to ensure that all loops have the same reading, otherwise the water will follow the path of least resistance, and might not flow at all through other loops.
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there"
  • Melhe Melhe @ 6:32 PM
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    Flow rate

    It seems all 4 zones ( 6 loops ) in that manifold couldn't generate enough heat. We insulated master bath today because that room is easier to insulate without damage basement ceiling.  i'll see how it goes. most loops indicated 0.8 and only one loop flow at 1.  both loops supply the bedroom flow at 0.8. should I adjust all the them to 1?
    R there any other ways to tell the flow rate ?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:54 PM
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    deleted

    This post was edited by an admin on January 27, 2014 6:57 PM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 6:56 PM
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    Flow

    Let them Rip all the way...Cant hurt..

    What instrument are you using to check floor temps etc ?

    Other ways to tell the flow rate? Not really those flow control valves are a metering device which tells you what the flow rate is set at, and should be.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 7:37 PM
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    insulation

    After the insulation this morning. Now I see the master bathroom floor temp raised to 86 degrees. room temp is 69 so far. Its better than yesterday. As I said. Today outside temp is higher. I will give it a few more days to see. If insulation really makes that much different. I have to rip down the ceiling of gym room
    I use black&Decker thermal leak detector to check tempratures.
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 8:40 PM
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    It looks

    like you may be on the right track.

    Keep us posted on your progress.

    Also like Gordy said, you can open up those balancing valves and allow more flow to go through. The balancing valves are built into the same piece as the flow meters. Just lift the plastic ring around the bottom where it screws into the manifold and turn it to change the flow rate. You will also have to readjust the circulator. Set it at a 15°F differential (between supply and return) and see how that does.

    Harvey
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:28 PM
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    Insulation

    Glad to see improvement . Like Harvey said the rim joists were sucking the btus out of the floor. That room has 3 exterior walls which makes things even worse.
  • Hydro Hydro @ 8:08 PM
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    Flow Rate

    THE FLOW RATE IS SUPER IMPORTANT!!!!! * If you have one loop flowing at .1, and all the rest at .08, guess where the majority of the water is flowing! All loops on a manifold must be balanced to exactly the same flow rate or it will not work properly
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there"
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 8:21 PM
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    I think she

    said 1 as in 1gpm and .8 as in .8 gpm.

    Every loop does not need to have, and hardly ever will have the exact same flow rate on a manifold that has multiple zones controlled by actuators. The loops in each zone should be set to the flowrate required by that zone @ the water temp supplied to the manifold.

    We could into a whole discussion on this and the various ways to control btu output from a manifold. There is full flow reverse return controlled by modulating water temps and modulating TRVs. There are just so many right ways to do it.

    Hydro, If you wish to discuss that further, please start a new thread. We don't want to loose focus on the problem at hand.

    Harvey
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:30 PM
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    Hydro

    So long as the manifold is getting the proper gpm each loop can have a different flow rate without robbing flow from another loop.
  • Hydro Hydro @ 11:05 PM
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    Flow Rate

    That is simply not true, if all of the telestats are open on a cold day, and you have one zone with 8 loops of different lengths, the water will flow to the path of least resistance, usually the shortest loop, with the least amount of fittings on it, robbing flow and Btus from other loops, and the floor mass will heat up unevenly, and will not work as efficiently as it can.
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there"
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:05 AM
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    Hydro

    If you have a manifold that has proper gpm supplied to it then the flow meters will do the rest.

    Hypothetical numbers.

    A six loop manifold getting 6 gpm supplied to it can easily have each loop with different flow rates with out robbing flow from another loop, or creating to much flow in another loop. The invention, and implementation of flow meters, and flow control valves has allowed the use of varying lengths of loops with out consequences.

    In the days before that it was good practice to keep loops with in 10% in length to avoid balancing issues

    All though we do not know in this case that the manifold in question has sufficient circ sizing it's a safe bet that if all flow meters are reading 1gpm that's what they will be giving.
  • Zman Zman @ 11:34 PM
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    Flow

    Hydro,
    Are you thinking that the difference in flow between 0.8 gpm and 1.0gpm is part of the problem with this system? I think not. Both flows should give a delta t of less than 10. The difference would be undetectable.
    Nice work Gordy and Harvey downward heat loss to a conditioned space, good call.
    Carl
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 6:19 PM
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    It was a cold day!

    How did your Master Bathroom fare today?

    Do you have any updates for us?

    Harvey
  • Melhe Melhe @ 9:34 PM
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    Unable to maintain the temp

    Today Master bathroom is 65 after insulation
    Master bedroom is 57.
    I am worried if I do all the insulations. The temps still may not go to the thermostat setting.
    You know what, There r some improvement for masterbath after the insulation. I may just go ahead to insulate all. But What if the temp goes up, but not high enough as livable condition. What else can I do?
  • Gordy Gordy @ 10:00 PM
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    Variables

    You have to weed out the variables. Insulation to direct the btus where they need to be is one of them. It will help, and if that is not the only variable then at least we can forget about the insulation part of the equation.

    It's to bad you can't get to the rim joist area on the perimeter, and give it a little extra detail with xps , and spray foam insulation.
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 10:56 PM
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    The insulation

    definitely made a big difference. I would say you should go ahead and insulate the rest of the space. You have to remember that the Master Bathroom was most likely losing heat through uninsulated interior walls, to the adjacent Master Bedroom. It may be that after the whole thing is insulated, you will reach setpoint. If you don't quite reach 70° we can easily remedy that by increasing the flow rate to that manifold and maybe adjusting the water temp up a couple degrees.

    Harvey
  • Melhe Melhe @ 9:40 PM
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    Insulation

    The whole section insulation will be done next week . I'll keep u updated by then . I think the same problem happening . When weather is cold , temp is not high enough . I used to have 3 boilers in the house and contractor changed one condensed boiler . The person comes from factory calculated that one boiler is enough . But if after insulation , temp still not enough . Should I install another boiler ? They must have reason why they install 3 boilers in the first place . But I ll discuss more after insulation . Today outside temps 40s . Master bath reached set up temp 74 and master bed 71 .
  • Gordy Gordy @ 9:54 PM
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    3 boilers or 1

    It is entirely possible to heat with one boiler instead of three. You stated in your original post that you had this issue before which is why you imputed, or contractor opted to replace boilers of old.

    Maybe the old boilers were staged where only all three ran on the coldest day. I don't think it's the boiler.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 10:30 PM
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    Staged

    U r right . It was staged and one boiler mainly in charge of hot water heating . the reason changing system is master bedroom is getting cold and small leaking in the pipes in boiler room
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 9:59 PM
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    You like it warm ;-)

    Industry standard for calculating heatloss for a Radiant Floor heating system is done with the assumption of an indoor temp of 68°
    My standard is I ask my customers what indoor temperature they prefer and I design based around that.

    I very highly doubt you need another boiler. I think after you get the insulation installed and if, you need a little more heat we can adjust the water up a little.

    In the meantime, if I remember correctly you said they installed a delta-t pump for this manifold. And they have it set at a 20° differential.
    Do me a favor and set that to a 10° differential.

    Harvey
  • Melhe Melhe @ 10:27 PM
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    10 degree different

    Do u mean supply and return different ? The contractor said he set 10 degree different . But due to too much heat loss . The return temp is more than 10 , about 20 . Hopefully insulation helps .
    Please correct me if I misunderstand you .
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 10:32 PM
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    Ok

    You did not misunderstand.

    Have you opened the balancing valves on the manifold the whole way? If not, you probably should. Get as much flow through as we can.


    Harvey
  • Melhe Melhe @ 8:31 AM
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    Flow meter

    Yes , they r opened all the way . Contractor came in yesterday and raised boiler temp to 160. Now system output almost 130 . Lets see if that make any different
  • Rich Rich @ 9:50 AM
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    Lots of zones

    I am a bit late to the party here but will say all the advice you have received is quality .  I would like to know who from what factory visited your home .
    The fact that you have 32 zones is a good thing . Because of the number of zones and how this system is controlled you can raise the temp as high as you need to at any time , although this is not desirable as far as efficiency that the boiler will achieve .  I will explain , when the floor surface temp in any zones reaches the temperature it should to satisfy that zone the thermostat will open and shut that zone down stopping flow thus making overheating the finish floor highly unlikely , no flow no more heat .  What really interests me is the fact that I just designed a room 2 days ago that had tubing installed by another . That room is 672 Square feet has a modest amount of windows and has a design heat loss of 15,024 . Differences are that it is slab on grade with R 5 below and at perimeter .
      This tubing was installed at 15" centers and the loops are in excess of 250 feet in length , design parameters are 0* ODT and 70* indoor . I will attach actual and what should have been at the end for review .  Point being , your Master bedroom should have had more and shorter loops . If the 00VDT put in was not of the 0013 variety you are more likely than not ever going to achieve desired room setpoint .  Couple that with the fact that 98% of the guys around here use default program settings or bogus design temps like 14* for here and you have a recipe for being cold . Harvey does what I do in asking the customer what they would like in their home , this is the only way to do it . So when a factory guy says this boiler and / or system should perform to design that may not be accurate because the design contains errors .
    Good call on the insulation , that is always required , heat does not rise , it is lazy and stupid and will go the easiest way it can , By the way if heat rises how does the sun know to always have its top pointed toward Earth ?
       Here are the reports from that exposed basement room , please look at them and see what you think
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on February 1, 2014 9:58 AM.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 7:53 PM
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    Heat loss calculation

    The person from factory is from uponor . I have exactly 3 pages reports like the one u attached . For master bed , heated area is 783 sq ft , wall 1813, windows 3510, infiltration , 4514. Radiant into room 9837 , floor downward 3279 , total radiant load. 13116 . The demolition of basement ceiling and insulation will be done next week . I will let u know how it turned out afterward . Again , yesterday and today outside temp is nice and warm , mb temp reached thermostat setting as well . It might have loop design flaw from original designer . I agree with u . But those loops embedded inside concrete slab . I guess it is difficult to change or add loops
  • Melhe Melhe @ 8:00 PM
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    Corrections

    The report I had doesn't detail into doors , each wall or each. Windows . It is one zone per line . I have another report for recommendations of each balance valve setting . But right now . All the valves in those zones are fully open
  • RobG RobG @ 3:04 PM
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    Insulation

    Insulation from below is a must in any radiant installation! If your rooms still don't heat to your liking, the problem is most likely in the design of the system. You may need to add supplemental heat such as panel radiators, baseboard, towel warmers etc. Before you take this approach though, you should get a qualified radiant tech to your home to assess the situation.
    In short, get the insulation done and if that doesn't solve the problem I would recommend calling Thacher heating. Here is a link mailto:contact@ecuacool.com.
    Joe is a true profesional and I am sure he can get your system straightend out. I am sure everyone on this site agrees.

    Rob
  • Melhe Melhe @ 8:04 PM
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    I agree

    I appreciate your recommendations . I'll keep u updated after insulation done .
  • Rich Rich @ 11:05 PM
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    Loops

    You say there are 2 for the master bedroom , are you sure there are not more than 2 ? 2 is not enough for this room , it should have at least 3 , if the ooVDT pump that was installed is a 008 it is not capable of adding the appropriate mechanical energy to a 2 loop configuration . This si shown on the reports I attached . I was hoping other pros would look at them to verify that fact . The 008 can move 4 GPM at roughly 14 feet of head , with only 2 loops you would have to be upwards of 20 feet .
      You should certainly follow Rob's advice and contact someone that does this competently . If Joe is not available , I am here in NJ also .  I Pm'd you my information .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Melhe Melhe @ 11:37 PM
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    Loops

    Each loop r labeled . I am pretty sure only 2 loops r in master bedroom . Only kitchen / family room has 3 loops in the house . I appreciate ur advice . Maybe the pump is not adequate if the temp still not going up after insulation which will be done in coming Tuesday And wedesday . If I still have problems after insulation . I will call u definitely . I will keep u updated . Today outside is 40s to 50s . MB temp is good . The problem is when it drops to 20s , I have to live in guest bedroom . Sounds crazy .
  • RobG RobG @ 1:20 PM
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    Insulation

    Did you get the insulation done? Any better?

    Rob
  • Melhe Melhe @ 5:53 PM
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    Insulation

    Insulation was done yesterday . Floor temp raised to 80s . Room temp 70. Just a little below the setting . I am very happy about it . I can't believe insulation made so much difference . Outside temp is 20-30 today. I'll give a few more days . Then give u the update :)
  • Harvey Ramer Harvey Ramer @ 8:55 PM
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    Success

    I'm glad your system seems to be functioning properly now. A radiant floor heating system properly installed is delightfully comfortable!

    Aren't you glad you stopped in at The Wall :-)

    Harvey
  • Melhe Melhe @ 10:33 PM
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    I appreciate

    I am so glad insulation is working and I am grateful that I found this site . I really appreciate everyone's help and input .

    Thank you. Harvey !!
  • SWEI SWEI @ 9:22 PM
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    Always good to hear back

    and close the loop on the stories here.

    Did you get your outdoor temp sensor installed and the reset curve programmed?
  • Melhe Melhe @ 10:34 PM
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    Outdoor sensor

    Outdoor sensor not installed yet . Should I wait outside get warmer ?
  • SWEI SWEI @ 11:05 PM
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    Install it now

    while you have a chance to setup the ODR parameters.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 9:28 AM
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    Thank you

    I will ask him to set up once he comes back . There are still a little issues. He will come back soon. Thanks for the advice
  • Rich Rich @ 10:16 PM
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    Lazy and stupid

    Heat is both , see what one well placed obstacle can do ?  Glad your stuff works now .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Melhe Melhe @ 10:36 PM
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    Insulation

    Yes . I am so glad . Thank u, Rich
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:04 AM
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    77 posts

    Problem solved!
  • Rich Rich @ 8:16 AM
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    Answers

    that are actually answers from the homeowner are great aren't they Gordy ? The action to get the right people in there doesn't hurt either .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
    This post was edited by an admin on February 8, 2014 8:17 AM.
  • Gordy Gordy @ 9:38 AM
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    Sometimes

    Your like a Doctor, and sometimes your like a Veterinarian Rich.
  • Melhe Melhe @ 10:01 AM
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    Temp setting

    Thanks, Rich.
     I have a question.  The temp over night still dropped to 68. ( of course much better than before). The contractor told us the old tubing we have under the floor can't hundle water temp over 140 because the painting around the tubing could chip off and damage the tubing if temp over 140. Currently we set boiler temp to 150 so that output temp in the tubing bw 120 to 130. But if we raised boiler temp to 160. occationally tubing temp will raise about 140. Do you any suggestions?  68 room temp is when boiler setting 150. I still have trouble to get temp raise to settings when outside temp drop to 20s or 10s. Please let me know if more recommendations. .Thanks
  • Rich Rich @ 11:36 AM
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    Old Tubing ?

    Where is this old tubing that your installer refers to ? This tubing all appears to me to be Uponor HePex.  There is no paint on HePex now nor has there ever been to my knowledge . That barrier is applied inside and out by pulling the tubing through a bath of the barrier material the minute it comes out of the extruder .  This barrier can reach at least extrusion temp (256*) without suffering any compromise of the applied barrier .  Earlier in the discussion you mentioned mixing devices , could you show us a picture of those and where they are in the system ?  My memory is not what it used to be , could you say again what type of floor you have there , is there overpour or concrete below your finish floor ?
    There is still the issue of head pressure du to the length of the installed loops and the Delta T ( shows this ) .  Could you tell us what numbers are on the pump for that manifold which has the 4 on it . It sounds as if the master bedroom is the area with the largest head loss and the circulator just struggles to heat that room . I am guessing that you have a 008 VDT , this because self proclaimed heating guys who do not actually know about heat have difficulty justifying the price of the correct pump in their mind when thy already invested 100.00 more than the typically used pump ,
    I would really like to see this system in person just out of curiosity . If possible and within a reasonable distance  I would volunteer my time to assist you . Where are you located , Monmouth or Ocean  Counties are within what I would consider close enough , even into Middlesex , Burlington .   
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • Gordy Gordy @ 12:17 PM
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    Take Rich up on this.

    Never heard of coating peeling off pex.
  • SWEI SWEI @ 12:51 PM
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    Newer hePEX

    Manufactured after 03/10 also has a non-slip layer on top of the EVOH.  You can tell by the duller, slightly rubbery finish.
  •  
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