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    Some recommended installation diagrams (12 Posts)

  • DrewM DrewM @ 9:54 PM
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    Some recommended installation diagrams

    Copied these out of an IO manual and would like to hear some comments about them. Apologies for them being sideways- I couldn't figure out how to rotate them and make it stick.
    Thanks-
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:20 PM
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    Vague

    You question is too vague. Please be more specific as to what you want to accomplish or what you want answered.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • DrewM DrewM @ 10:30 PM
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    Just wanted...

    Just wanted to hear some commentary. I'm used to pointing to the IOM to support a point to an engineer or project manager, but these drawings don't seem to adhere to the best practices I'm familiar with. Am I missing something?
  • Ironman Ironman @ 10:37 PM
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    Elaborate

    Could you elaborate on how you feel they're incorrect?
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • DrewM DrewM @ 11:08 PM
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    For instance...

    On page 34, boilers connected consecutively to the header. What rate do the later boilers fire at?
    Aren't those bypasses redundant?
    Same questions on page 35. In addition, the primary pump is nowhere near the expansion tank.
    Page 36- How would that air separator work?
    Page 37 has pumps in series.
    Am I missing something?
  • Rich Rich @ 9:36 AM
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    Q & A

    1     The bypasses are redundant . They are band aids manufacturers have learned to include in the IOMs to CTA and also so there is a way to semi fix a poorly pumped / designed / installed system .  This is the state of our industry .
    2    All of the installed pumps are pumping away from the point of no pressure change . No concerns .  The pump / pumps can be located anywhere that could be considered pumping away from the tank .
    3   That air separator has issues in my opinion . The makeup water at the very least should enter the system on the opposite side of the separator from where they depict it . Best place for that water to enter would be connected to the separator
     
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • N/A @ 6:07 AM

    are,you

    Are you trying to CYA???
  • N/A @ 6:07 AM

    are,you

    Are you trying to CYA???
  • Rich Rich @ 8:01 AM
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    What

    type of system is this for ? Meaning is it extensively zoned , what type or types of emitters , what were the end users'  hopes and wishes as to how this would operate and how efficient it would be , are they to be staged or all at once operation ? Give us something .
    If your opinion differs from what the engineer specified and that opinion is validated from years of experience I suggest you draw what you want to do and submit it with explanation to the engineer and why it is better . If he seals it you're good and if not demand explanation why so if at a later date it does not function as designed you are also covered .
    Bad thing about any of these situations if you are performing CYA is that in a litigation I have known jurists to state and I quote " Sir you are a licensed contractor and if you possessed knowledge that this was incorrect or would cause issues you had the option to refrain from performing work that you were aware would not function or cause harm "  . That's a tough one to get around . We too often are put in situations where we become responsible no matter what . I think the people who word contacts knowingly did this to us .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would
  • DrewM DrewM @ 8:18 AM
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    Commercial boilers

    This is a commercial line of 95% efficient boilers, ranging from 750 to 3000 MBH. These are the prescribed system piping diagrams from the IOM.
    These aren't something I am on the hook to install- I found them while I was doing some research on a different situation.
    However, since IOMs are authorities I typically rely on, I'm curious to find out how effective these pipe designs would be, taking them at face value.
    Sort of a "Glitch and Fix", if you will.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 8:32 AM
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    The way that's drawn:

    The way that's drawn, how does it work? And has anyone ever piped it that way and it worked?
    I've noticed through the years that water and electricity always seek the path of least resistance. In which case, why would the water bother traveling through the heaters and not directly into the system? The only way it might is if the recirculation return was full size and you had a huge recirc. pump acting as a primary pump. And then, I wonder. There are easier ways to do that.
    But you must have figured that out already.
    Water doesn't go where it doesn't want to go. Unless you use a bigger circulator and MAKE it go there
    This post was edited by an admin on January 31, 2014 8:42 AM.
  • Ironman Ironman @ 9:57 AM
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    Issues

    The biggest issue I see at quick glance are with the first and third drawings, though I'm sure more could be found.

    On the first: why would anyone want to pipe condensing boilers in series? The efficiency of each proceeding boiler would drop substantially as it receives heated water from the previous boiler.

    On the third: without a system circ, the water will short circuit either through the boilers or zones depending which is closer to the pump(s) creating flow. This would render the system almost totally ineffective as heat transfer between the boilers and zones would be minimal.
    Bob Boan



    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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