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    foam in oil feed, even with tiger loop (29 Posts)

  • luke1979 luke1979 @ 8:37 AM
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    foam in oil feed, even with tiger loop

    hello, and thank you in advance.

    last September i had a roth oil tank with overhead line and tiger loop installed. i had no problems until recently. now furnace will start/stop/restart upon new cylce. i had a oil repair man look at it twice. foam in line. he replaced filter, nozzel, screen, verified plug was in pump to run tiger loop.

    after he bleeds oil line, furnace will run ok for a week or so. then problem will re-occur. no air is seen in tiger loop. oil tank is low right now, down to an 1/8. problem started when it got down to 1/3.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 9:59 AM
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    Foaming:

    Do you have a spin-on filter at the burner with a restriction (vacuum) gauge on the filter? Or a canister with some form of sock inside?
    Replace the rubber pick-up in the tank with a piece of copper tube set 6" +/- from the bottom of the tank. Use a double tapped bushing in place of the valve/tank adapter, shut off. Install a Firomatic 3/8" IPS safety valve with flare fittings on everything. The OEM valve has been known to suck air through the valve stem packing.
    If you're going to run the Roth tank (or any top fed tank) down low, you will have problems unless you continuously sound the tank levels.
    If the burner runs, and you see foam in the Tigerloop top, you have a vacuum leak somewhere. There is enough oil inside the Tigerloop to allow the burner to start and run until it picks up the fuel and not stop on "Safety". If it only does it when the tank is low, the pick-up is too high.
  • luke1979 luke1979 @ 10:53 AM
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    tiger loop

    you said "stop on safety" is this what my furnace is doing when it start/stops on beginning of cycle? could this aeration be forming after the tiger loop?

    i ran the tank down to an 1/8 before with no issues. so i "assume" the pick up was installed correctly.
  • Kakashi Kakashi @ 9:59 AM
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    Guess

    Take a pic on the top of your tank. If you have the rubber supply that Roth used to us, well they still do sell them.
    If you don't have the rubber hose you have a leak somewhere or you are out of oil. Some of the Roth tank installers put the the tank gauge right next to the supply and then when the tank gets filled that tank gauge gets wrapped around the supply.

    Could be a lot of other things...
  • luke1979 luke1979 @ 10:27 AM
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    foam in oil feed, even with tiger loop

    what i don't understand, is when you bleed the oil, there is plenty of flow and the bubbles go away. bubbles are not seen in tiger loop, only in the bleeder bucket/hose. there is no shut off on tank. shut off is on burner only.

    the vent is on the far left in pic, next to gauge. the fill pipe is on right next to oil feed.
    any help ideas are very much appreciated!
    thank you!
  • Coany Coany @ 7:48 PM
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    check that 90 before the filter

    guys cranking on the filter often create a vacum leak right there.
    " Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" Teddy Roosevelt
  • Kakashi Kakashi @ 7:37 AM
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    gauge

    The tank installer did no use the rubber suction line. That is good and bad. If your gauge is working you are out of oil.
  • luke1979 luke1979 @ 9:18 AM
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    low tank

    i know the tank is low, the gauge is working. i ran it lower than this before. its at the top of the grey area, where it show an oil truck. i think before i make any more repairs, i'll bite the bullet and fill the tank. this would rule out any pick up issues. i was hoping to wait until oil prices went down a bit.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 2:25 PM
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    Bleeding &

    Tigerloops  and burners connected to one are NOT to be bled with the pump bleed screw. You don't use the pump bleed screw when starting a two pipe burner pump system, and a Tiber Loop is a connected two pipe system. If you find your burner off on safety, and you can Purge air from the fuel pump, you must have ran out of fuel. If you try to purge air from the fuel when you start up the burner from it being off on safety, and you get purged air, you ran out of oil.
    A normally functioning Tigerloop, if stopped while the burner was running and normally stops, will re-start regardless if there is a complete loss of oil in the suction line. The oil in the Tigerloop will provide oil for a long enough period to keep the burner running until it re-establishes prime.
    It sounds like you are running out of oil because of a lack of sufficient oil in the tank.
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 2:13 PM
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    filter

    get rid of the B-4, and instal a General or Garber at the burner. Fulflo filters are great for air and oil leaks
  • icesailor icesailor @ 4:17 PM
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    The General:

    With General's not too far behind. Because of the cast iron fiber washer that holds the bleed screw and the other that holds the cap screw.
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 8:54 PM
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    haven't had that problem

    with those. Always replace the gaskets, and key to not over tighten. I only buy them with the green Bio gasket last couple of years. That is also very important to prevent leaking filters. The black gaskets are made by morons nowadays. Ask me how I came to realize that
  • icesailor icesailor @ 9:08 AM
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    Asking:

    Probably the same way I realized that if I bought a Spin-On, it came with a gasket already installed on the filter and it didn't have any other gaskets to change or worry about.
    General filters:    4 gaskets to keep track of.
    Fulflo Filters:       3 gaskets to keep track of.
    Spin-on's:            0 gaskets to keep track of. Only the box they come in because the gasket is already in place.
    Go to the auto parts house. Buy filters to change the oil on your vehicles. They all have spin-on's with gaskets already applied.
    I know a guy that lives in the past. He is still bemoaning the fact that he could fix his 1950 Chevy with a screwdriver, a pair of pliers and a roll of tar tape. And if he had big fat soft tires on it, he could drive it on the beach and go fishing.
    I preferred my F150 Ford 4X4 pick up trucks to go fishing. And no rolls of tar tape.
  • billtwocase billtwocase @ 12:31 PM
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    gaskets

    Ice, what is the 4th gasket that you are referring to on a General? They come with 3 only, and the bottom of the pot should not be dismantled. I use Sids form of Garber, and those have an "O" ring that needs replacing. I don't like how this particular tank was installed. The fill should not be next to the suction. If it be running during delivery, instant air in the line. Can't tell by the pic if there is a compression or flare fitting at the fireomatic
  • icesailor icesailor @ 8:26 AM
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    4th gasket:

    That's the 4th gasket. That can sometimes leak on old filters that the top screw doesn't come off of easier. Some guys always back up the nut part on the bottom with another wrench. If they have the spare wrench needed in their tray or have the ambition to go out to the truck and find it.
    I'm older than you. I got tired of using a pair of needle nose pliers to grab the wire strainer and pull that wool sock out of the pile of black baby poo in the can. Then, scrounging around for all the filter gaskets in the little thin baggy that the new filter came in with the gaskets in it. From rolling around in a bin, the thin wall plastic bag had worn a hole in it and the gaskets weren't all there.
    Besides, I figure that General Filter must know something they aren't telling me. They bought out GarBer filters along with Fulflo filters. They didn't discontinue wool sock canister filters, nor did they discontinue Spin-On's sold as Garber's. So they must be better. And the gasket comes on it so you can't take it off. The only gasket is the O-Ring. A new one comes in every box. Where they can easily fall out. You can leave the old one. If you take it off, you can't use it over because it will stretch. You need a new one. If you leave an old used/stretched one in the truck for a while, it will shrink back to like new status. Good in a pinch. When the O-Ring is missing in the box and you have taken the old one off and it is stretched. And an old used one looks just like a new one. In fact, you can't tell the difference.
    The best part is that once you have changed all your customers filters to spin-on's, and always install two, you only have to stock one kind of filter in the truck and you have fewer service calls because of plugged nozzle strainers with the under .85 nozzles. And you never have to stick your hand inside a canister to clean out the black baby poo. Reminds me of changing a baby's diaper with a stinky in it.
  • bc3510 bc3510 @ 9:19 AM
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    Generals

    I can relate to all of the above witth the Generals. On LI, they are all Generals and the exact problems that you state are legendary. I once contacted the director of Engineering for General and asked him how he can produce a filter canister that will completely rust through after X period of time? I nearly suffered a catastrophe at that time but it was averted by sheer miracle.

    His answer was that I could replace the canister as they sell such a replacement as a spare part (at about the same cost as a complete assembly).

    Refused to buy that defective part from them and bought the replacement kit from Sid. It's far more durable.

    Anyway, can you give some more details about the spin-on? Make, part number? I'd like to downfire to .65 on one system, but everyone says "no way" due to risk of nozzle clogging.

    Are you successful at .65 on any of your installs? Any tips?
    B.C.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 9:48 PM
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    Gerber Filters:

    Try this:
    http://www.generalfilters.com/products/garber-filters.html

    Did you ask the guy at General Filter, why they bought out Garber and Fulflo filters?
    Then, why would you worry about a canister/container that holds a filter, rotting through with time and filters, when with a Garber/Spin-On, you replace the metal canister every time you change the filter.

    Pure-Pro or some other aftermarket supplier makes spin-on filters that fit any spin on top like  Garber. Be careful though because they are slightly longer. If the filter is close to the floor and it is tight getting a container under the filter, you may not be able to get the catch pan under it or the filter removal wrench. Some of us have always liked to keep some sort of container under a filter because of potential leaks. Not so sometimes with Pure-Pro filter elements.

    Just for information.
  • bc3510 bc3510 @ 12:44 PM
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    Nice

    Those should perform very well without the potential for air leaks and without any risk of corrosion of the can.

    I spoke to them at least 10 years ago when I was thoroughly pissed off about the fact that the can rusted right through and was leaking oil to China (could have cost a fortune).

    Have you any experience with running those filters with .65 nozzles? I have a house where I'm absolutely desperate to reduce the burn rate. Even at .65 it's way too high.
    B.C.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 1:02 PM
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    .65 Nozzles:

    Use two spin-on's. No sludge gets to the nozzle strainer.

    In MY minority opinion, sludge gets to the nozzle strainer and restrict the pressure on the outlet side of the strainer. Like 150# at the inlet side of the strainer and the same when new. After a week of sludge plugging the inlet side of the strainer, it's less that 100#. How you going to measure it? You can't. But if you change a nozzle  and fire it, and immediately stop and drain the nozzle assembly, and the oil runs out quickly, and you them come back a week later when the thing is running like a dog that won't hunt, try the same thing. The oil barely runs out. Why? Because the strainer is plugged. To prove my point, change just the strainer and see that it doesn't run like a whole complete new nozzle.
    When I switched to 2 spin-on's, I NEVER had that problem again. Even with a seriously dirty first spin-on. The second one was always fine.
    Do you know what kind of crap develops in the fuel tanks of commercial fishing boats? If their injectors plug up and the engine stops, it can be a seriously life threatening experience. They have multi port spin's on fuel filter racks that you can switch over without shutting the engine down. They make fuel filters for the marine diesel industry that will filter out anything. Make it just like water. Without any water. They just aren't UL listed for home heating oil applications.
  • bc3510 bc3510 @ 1:22 PM
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    two spin on's

    If that will keep the oil company happy, then I'll definitely do it. They maintain that unit (because I'm not going out at 3:00 a.m.).

    Their interest is not in lowering the fuel burn............it's selling more oil without any service calls. So, we're somewhat at odds for our own needs.

    I've always changed both the strainer and the nozzle. But, you make a good point. The strainer is more than likely the weak link.

    I also want to increase the pump pressure to 125 psi. The oil sits in an unheated space and atomizes poorly at 100 psi. They are going to fight about that as well.

    I'm an old ferry boat captain and clean fuel was critical for operation. Fortunately, in that environment, they would burn all the fuel in their tanks within several days, so they didn't develop the problems that a fishing boat has with fuel that sits for weeks at a time.
    B.C.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 3:56 PM
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    Strainers:

    Not that strainer. There's two. The one on the pump. It has a wire mesh. Useless for straining anything smaller than coffee grounds. I'm talking about the strainer/filter that screws into the inlet end of the nozzle. If you put the nozzle into a 5/8" box end wrench and take a small (6" pair of water pump pliers, it will unscrew. Nozzles over 1.25 GPH might have wire strainers. Below that, they are metal bronze beads. When they plug up, you can not see that they are. You can't tell what the pressure is because the gauge measures what the pressure output at the pump and to the outside of the nozzle strainer. The inside space is less than 1/4".
    Be careful raising the pump pressure. Raising the pump pressure increases the output of the nozzle. The rating on a nozzle is based at 100# pressure. To put a higher pressure through a nozzle increases the  input firing rate. If they stack temperature goes much below 400 degrees, you may be wasting fuel, not saving it.
    The oil company doesn't make more or less, regardless of what nozzle in in place. That factoid you've alluded to about oil companies want to sell you more oil is bogus. Promoted by well financed gas companies who want you to switch to their product. Its just another Urban Legend. Like Wall Street is your friend and would never do anything to hurt the country. They would be hurt too.
    And the check is in the mail.
  • bc3510 bc3510 @ 4:30 PM
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    that strainer

    I always thought the bronze piece that was part of the nozzle was inseparable from the nozzle. For the cost of the nozzle ($5.00), I can afford to toss it............. :)

    I realize the higher pressure will result in more fuel. The .65 will flow at an effective rate of .72 with 125 psi. I'm OK with that.

    I'll never get the stack down to 400.....................
    B.C.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 10:16 AM
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    Nozzle Strainers:

    Does anyone understand what I say about nozzle strainers? They are removable. How do you think I figured out that the problem was in the strainer plugging up.
    Clean and service a boiler. The first call was no heat because the burner wouldn't fire. No fuel coming out the nozzle. The paper sock filter was a disgusting glop of black baby poo. After changing the nozzle, pump strainer and filter, two days later, I'm back with the burner barely running with a crappy flame. The paper sock is soiled gray, the pump strainer is as clean as when I installed it two days ago. I pull out the nozzle assembly and when I hold it up to let the oil run out, no oil runs out. When I remove the nozzle, oil pours out of the assembly Why is that? Could it be? The strainer is plugged and holding a vacuum and not letting air in through the nozzle? HEAVENS!! Put in a new nozzle and it runs like it did two days before. Pull out the nozzle assembly and oil pours out. Could it be???

    Wait, wait!!! That's a Hago 60"ES .85 GPH nozzle. I don't have one here with me. They don't have the at the store. Its a special order and I have to buy 144 of them to get one nozzle. Hago's new rule since Danfoss bought them out. OH LOOK. Here's some old nozzles that I will never ever in my life, use. They're old Sid Harvy nozzles and they are Hago's. Lets just unscrew the strainer off an old nozzle and put this new strainer on and see what happens. OMG!!!! It works and runs like a CHAMP. Could it be that just the nozzle strainer is all that is wrong? How about I put a Spin on filter on the thing. How about two? Two are better than one. A year later, after no service calls, the first filter is dirty but the second one looks like new as does the pump strainer. The oil runs out of the nozzle assembly like water from a hose.  The micron rating of the nozzle strainer is far smaller than the orifice size on the nozzle. I could probably take that strainer off and it would work fine. It does, but I won't do that.
    So, I call up my supplier. "Hey Jay, you must have a lot of old small oil burner nozzles that you can't get rid of. Can I get a deal on some? I just want the strainers for good nozzles I have robbed for the strainers"? Sure, How about $1.50 a piece for 100 of them. Send them over on Tuesday. I don't care what they are or their spray and GPH. As long as they are below 1.00 GPH.
    Now all the robbed nozzles in the box are working and usable. If I have a nozzle in my box that is complete, do you think I wouldn't use it? I only rob strainers out of necessity.
    So, I ask any of you current Soot Suckers out there. If it's 1:30 AM on a snowy stormy night and you have three more no heat service calls to go to, and you need a new nozzle that you know you changed 6 months ago, but you just don't have that one specific nozzle. Would you swap strainers for a unusable nozzle to get the current one going? Or leave them without heat until you can get back with a brand new nozzle? I swap strainers.
    In my own house, as an experiment, I found that there was no difference in performance between a brand new nozzle and a three year old one with proper dual filtration.
    Or, maybe I see that among all those trees, there really is a forest.
  • bc3510 bc3510 @ 11:39 AM
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    Clearly correct

    Thankfully, I don't have the same situation. With all three using the same .85 or .95 hollow nozzles, there isn't the necessity of invention at 3:00 a.m.

    I am in agreement that the strainer that is attached to the nozzle is clearly the source of the problem since its filtration capability is far beyond the nozzle size, as you mentioned.

    BTW, how do you know if that pile of used nozzles has a decent strainers? Presumably, it's a crapshoot.
    B.C.
  • icesailor icesailor @ 1:27 PM
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    Not really (Telling)

    The old odd nozzles, when they get the strainers robbed, get thrown away. If I rob a new strainer off of a good nozzle, it stays in the in the nozzle boxes with the caps on. Without the strainer. When I get a moment, I might fix some with new strainers. If I need a nozzle that I have already robbed the strainer, I just rob another one. Either way, I'm not buying nozzles that I don't have enough of. I have a large assortment of nozzles like most of us. Some for burners that aren't in use anymore and so I have useless nozzles.

    Its a matter of convenience. Not to be cheap with nozzles. Its a lot easier to take 5 minutes to swap a dirty strainer on a perfectly good nozzle than to go drive a I hour round trip to get something that only cost me $5.00 +/-. I liked to keep my inventory at a manageable level.
  • bc3510 bc3510 @ 1:40 PM
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    more importantly..........

    You cannot make the round trip after 5:00 p.m. It would require another visit.

    Clearly efficient to maintain the capability to change the strainer.
    B.C.
  • RobG RobG @ 2:05 PM
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    I have

    Ice, you are still using present tense. You need to get into the retirement mentality. You live in Florida and probably still don't have a tan :)

    Rob
  • icesailor icesailor @ 1:01 PM
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    Tenseness:

    I swap back and forth in tenses. It must be because of my 1950's public school education.
    Then again, if I ignored what I did, and didn't post and pass on my experiences and strengths. I would lose it all. So, I have a choice. Avoid tensions and switch tenses, or just give up and not be challenged in my aged brain.

    Then, there's the issue of what I did a year ago, and whether I would still do it that way today.  Its that thing about "If I knew then, what I know now, I would have done it differently". Some things I'd do differently. Some others, I'd still do the same.
    This post was edited by an admin on June 16, 2014 1:21 PM.
  • RobG RobG @ 2:55 PM
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    But

    The real question is, have you gotten a tan yet?
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