-
Post a Reply to this Thread
CO 2004-5 (118 Posts)
-
-
-
-
interesting
that they call it a leak. CO is not a natural byproduct of complete combustion.MAkes it sound like people a re storing bottles of the stuff.
It sad that people don't know better including many heating "pros"
Did a call where the HO says previous 2 (!) techs couldn't figure out why the roll out tripped. reset and observed the flame blow out a good foot (!) when the blower kicked in. Looked into the H.E. and found a crack 16" long that I could put my hand through! How they missed it I do not know. Sheer STUPIDITY from those "pros" (and I am using that term very loosely)
Annual maintenance is what I tell people (not advise anymore) get me or anyone else, but do it. This can be prevented with education and training.
Here goes another year.
-
-
You know
it is scary the number of guys who could miss that though. I also teach troubleshooting to new and experienced techs, and am constantly amazed and how ignorant some "pros(?)" are.
It was pretty easy to notice that when the blower came on the flame blew back (a good foot!)
Hello! McFly?? you in there? They said one tech pulled the burner to inspect that....why??
Its not only stupid...Its SCARY. I liken it to drunk driving..you have the potential to kill people.
I have your "potential cure for CO" and it is distributed religiously. I have seen to much of this and I agree that education is one of many keys to this issue. (for HO and contractors) and I try to do both.
Keep up the good work Mark. You save many lives. people who read all your CO posts will at least think..."maybe there is something to this"
I tip my hat and raise my glass to you!
Salute!
Mike
-
If CO is a big problem, how come I have never seen a technician who tunes my furnace every year measure it. He measures CO2, stack temp, tests for sootand draft and comes up with an efficiency. And by the way over the past several years the CO2 content has remained the same but the stack temp keeps going up. What does all this mean?
Finally, what is your personal experience with CO poisoning in oilfired heating systems?
-
One of the reasons
that CO is such a big problem is that it goes undetected. You said so yourself when you mention that your technician doesn't test for it. He can't test for it because he doesn't have the equipment. There are some who still do not believe that oil produces CO. They are wrong.
I was called to a home a few years ago by a woman that wanted a new boiler. The existing unit was in a utility area located under the stairs to the second floor of the home. (Home was slab on grade) She told me she had the unit serviced every year for the twelve years she had lived there and had the service tickets to prove it. And on those service tickets were all of the readings you mention, CO2, stack temp, smoke, draft and efficiency. No CO.
Well we found that the bottom of her oil fired boiler had burned completely through and that the unit was leaking comnbustion products into her home where she lived with her two young children. I can't say for certain how long the boiler was like this, but I know it didn't happen overnight and was probably like that for years.
She and her children went to the docter and ALL of them had elevated level of Carboxyhemoglobin, consistent with chronic CO poisoning. Her UL listed CO alarms never went off due to the fact that they were never meant to sound an alarm at under 70ppm. They were slowly being poisoned and no-one ever knew it.
I was as ignorant about CO as the next guy until a few years ago when I attended a class about it. It opened my eyes to the potential danger we expose our customers to every time we set something on fire (furnace, boiler, water heater etc..)
If you do not test, there is absolutely no way you can tell whether an appliance is producing high levels of CO or not. They ALL produce some. We need to be absolutely sure that the appliances will burn correctly and draft under worse case scenarios. Turning on exhaust fans and clothes dryers and air handling equipment WHILE we are testing.
If you do not, you are guessing. I choose not to guess, I want to know and so do my customers.
Hope this helps.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
-
-
-
Read this story!
I want to point out what the Fire Officials say.
http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=2528896&nav=HMO6Sp6W
"Andy Ellsworth, from Coyote Cooling and Heating, says, "You don't want any carbon monoxide. Anything over 10 parts per million is going to be a problem. Any good quality detector should set off an alarm at that point."
There is one small problem with this. Alarms that comply with UL 2034 CANNOT AND WILL NOT ALARM AT THAT LEVEL!
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
-
more on CO
I hand this out many times a year to educate and inform. I also tell customers that most of the detectors available at the big box stores just don't cut it - and refer them elsewhere.
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema/gesein/abhose/abhose_ce25.cfm?renderforprint=1
-
good one
I am going to start using it too. Thanks for the tip.
I have a post here named exposure limits if anyone is interested.
Mike
-
-
-
-
-
WHAT!!!
Why the H**L is there an intake for the duct system in the freakin GARAGE!!!
I cant believe my eyes when I read THAT! Another than could have been prevented.
sad
-
All CO deaths
All CO deaths in the past 10 years at least in my area are from cars left running in garages, people in AJOINING apts are killed because the multi unit buildings aren't sealed too well and so little CO is all that't needed for a death. On the "non accidental" deaths the person planning to die often shuts the door to the attached garage thinking that will keep the rest of the family safe, the rest of the family deaths are the most tragic.
-
Seven poisoned
Here again, a Fire Official is passing on misleading information. He says that "anything over 50ppm can be lethal if exposed over a period of time". Well that may apply to a middle-aged adult, but it DOES NOT apply to the two-month old that lives in that house.
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041106/NEWS01/411060334/1002/NEWS
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
-
-
But Mark,
> And again we see officials recommending UL
> "tested"
> alarms.
>
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/h
> ealth/2002083733_monoxide06m.html
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
-
But Mark,
at this time, what else can they advise? I agree that the UL listing is not designed to protect individuals at low level exposure, but, from a standpoint of what an agency or municipal department can recommend, I believe that it would be quite difficult to advise something contrary to the standards in force. This comes back to the whole issue of how best to protect people. I deal with this regularly in my job. Before OSHA, I was in private industry providing safety solutions to industrial customers that were designed to be up to "best safety practices", but when I got to where I am now, I am limited to enforcing minimum safety regulations. Bottom line is when it comes to CO, protecting people from acute exposures is where the regulatory agencies will be most inclined to draw the line. If you recall from years ago, fire departments responding to seemingly false (low level) alarms created such problems that the UL is what it is today. The challenge is to so convincingly present the data (and I do mean data because that is what "officials" thrive on) that there is no compelling reason not to make a change in the standards.
Quite frankly, I continue to think that this is definitely an uphill battle. Perhaps local codes should require CO alarms in all dwellings and the number of deaths might drop.
Thank you for all your efforts.
Larry
-
Education
is the key here.
We aren't just talking about "code enforcement", there are some dangerously false statements being made by "officials".
UL-2034 keeps fire departments from getting CO calls, it does not and was not designed to protect people. It is standard that allows a CO alarm to wait up to 239 minutes before it alarms at 70ppm. Almost 4 hours. That might not be lethal for some, but it could just kill an infant or an elderly person.
Even alarms with the digital display are forbidden to display anything under 30ppm.
Yes, this is an uphill battle. But someone's got to do it.
I appreciate all your help!
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
-
I respectfully disagree
Larry, the false alrams from years ago (particularly in Chicago) had absolutely nothing to do with alarms being sensitive to low levels of CO.
They had everything to do with cheap sensors (Metal Oxide) that were cross sensitive to a multitude of common household cleaning and hygene products as well as high/low humidity levels - even latex paint.
The Gas Research Institute did a study in 1999 that found 38% of the alarms they purchased from retail outlets failed, and when the test button was pressed, all indications were that the alarms were functioning properly - because all UL requires of the test button is that the buzzer works.....
Yes, that study was done 5 years ago. However, a Grand Rapids news broadcast this past spring found pretty much the same thing. They purchased 8 alarms and we tested them by placing them under the exhaust pipe of a car. Of the 8, only 5 went into alarm (and my test instrument maxed out at 2,000ppm).
Yes, I would agree to the argument that requiring a UL approved alarm is better than nothing, my main beef is that by not allowing an alarm that superceds the standards is a very serious problem.
If you haven't seen George Kerr's website (www.coexperts.com), you need to spend some time there. It really opened my eyes to some serious issues.
I have two of his alarms in my own home, for two years now and they have performed flawlessly.
I also recently recieved a new low level one from NCI, it also appears to provide true protection.
The UL approved alarm I had before, I now use during CO training seminars to demo how worthless it is.....
Like Mark reminded me recently, CO poisoning is the hands down number 1 cause of accidental poisoning in this great country of ours, this may be an uphill battle but it's one I think is worth fighting for...
-
Mark
Education is absolutely the key.
The UL-2034 I believe, was intended to protect people, (just not everyone). My experience with regulatory agencies is that rule making is almost always a compromise between the various factions. Just so you understand, I am in NO WAY making excuses for the state of affairs that we currently have. I am a supporter of your efforts 100% and I share your sentiments that a lot more needs to be done. What I have seen in other areas is that small steps may be more easily accomplished than what would clearly be the best solution. The problem is that the time that lags between something and everything causes more hardship for the public. Without the efforts of people like yourself, the already high numbers of tragedies would be even greater.
Don't stop (like I have to tell you that). Please allow me to occasionally provide the devil's advocate position as I think that by providing contrasting positions, we are able to more clearly articulate our positions. When you make your case before Congress, you've got to have it all together.
Larry
-
-
I respectfully disagree
Larry, the false alrams from years ago (particularly in Chicago) had absolutely nothing to do with alarms being sensitive to low levels of CO.
They had everything to do with cheap sensors (Metal Oxide) that were cross sensitive to a multitude of common household cleaning and hygene products as well as high/low humidity levels - even latex paint.
The Gas Research Institute did a study in 1999 that found 38% of the alarms they purchased from retail outlets failed, and when the test button was pressed, all indications were that the alarms were functioning properly - because all UL requires of the test button is that the buzzer works.....
Yes, that study was done 5 years ago. However, a Grand Rapids news broadcast this past spring found pretty much the same thing. They purchased 8 alarms and we tested them by placing them under the exhaust pipe of a car. Of the 8, only 5 went into alarm (and my test instrument maxed out at 2,000ppm).
Yes, I would agree to the argument that requiring a UL approved alarm is better than nothing, my main beef is that by not allowing an alarm that superceds the standards is a very serious problem.
If you haven't seen George Kerr's website (www.coexperts.com), you need to spend some time there. It really opened my eyes to some serious issues.
I have two of his alarms in my own home, for two years now and they have performed flawlessly.
I also recently recieved a new low level one from NCI, it also appears to provide true protection.
The UL approved alarm I had before, I now use during CO training seminars to demo how worthless it is.....
Like Mark reminded me recently, CO poisoning is the hands down number 1 cause of accidental poisoning in this great country of ours, this may be an uphill battle but it's one I think is worth fighting for...
-
Rudy
I stand corrected regarding the early CO alarms. I don't make any claims to be as informed about this as it may have appeared.
I am in complete agreement that the test button is a complete waste and provides a false sense of security. The challenge continues to be how to change the minds of the powers that be. Rule makers get tugged from many directions and the one with the strongest pull generally decides where these things land. Consider the post that Mark shared recently about the politician's family members that died. Where is this issue right now on capital hill where someone might be able to do something about it? I don't know, but I'd bet it is nowhere.
Here in Minneapolis there was also a news clip very similar to the one you describe. At least a dozen CO alarms that were 3, 4, or 5 years old were tested in a sealed room with auto exhaust piped in. Several thousand ppm in very short order and it took forever for many to alarm and since that broadcast, I am sad to say that I know of nothing that has changed.
It appears that the challenge continues to be not only education, but ensuring that the products that reach consumers actually function as intended.
Out of all the incidents that we read about, how many had CO alarms at all? How many law suits have been filed against the makers of these products because they failed to respond to high levels? Follow my drift? While I too would like to solve this problem in the best possible way, what can we do NOW that will save lives? I just read an article today that talked about education being the key to enhancing safety in the workplace. Education, on more than one front, I believe, is the most important step to take to reduce these deaths.
(Yes I have been to the coexperts site and found it very informative.)
Thank you for all your efforts and providing knowlege to me any many others.
Larry
-
-
Mark
I was just going to post that story when I saw your thread. If the woman was "waiting for a part" why oh why didn't the service tech warn her of the dangers of staying there? Oh never mind, I think I know the answer...
-
False Alarms
According to documents there were 3 popular Alarms in Chicago at the time-First Alert(alarm level 15ppm), Nighthawk(alarm level 30ppm), & American Sensors(alarms level 100ppm). The false alarm report showed all 3 alarms
were false the same percentage. Further investigation by some of my students discovered that the main diagnostic equipment being used by the fire departments and utilities were Glass Tube Testers and Tif Gas Leak Detectors. Bad Alarms/Bad Investigations? Hopefully these situations will never be repeated.
-
-
-
-
-
-
Found the cat face down in the litter box
Didn't mention whether they used Tidy Cat or Fresh Step? Blockage in the 11 year old furnace!! Where are the safeties???
-
-
Lets stick a needle in then a see if the qualify
Nursing supervisor said they have to have a blood gas test first before they are allowed in the hyperbaric chamber!!!
All exposures need this treatment becuase CO continues to do damage for hours!!! Wonder if they get to study first?
-
-
Fifth school this month
Home schooling might be sounding better everyday!
-
-
CO detector
Can someone post the website address for the REAL carbon monoxide detectors.
Can websites on this forum be posted as a link? I always have to cut and paste the websites. Is it just me?
Thanks
-
-
-
Isn't nice to know...
that your not even safe in a hospital.
"An air monitoring device helps detect Carbon Monoxide. It did not pick up any traces of the gas inside the hospital."
Since this is a hospital, I'm sure this is a UL-2034 "Certified" monitor system. UL-2034 wins again, HA HA.
Interesting that there was no mention of carbo-oxyhemoglobin testing on the 14 patients that were taken to the other hospital. That of course would have told them whether the strange odor was CO or not, but that of course would have opened up a liability issue.
-
Mark
So who is in Ohio to be the local voice to inform the press and local media about the truth of the matter? Local folks presenting consise information that can be easily digested by the press, etc. that gets people asking questions. Do you think this could be a way to get (keep) the ball rolling? By the way, what happened to Jennifer at whatever tv station that was?
Is there a national industry association or trade group that could take this issue and put it out there where we (The Wall) believe it belongs? Local and national efforts to change an industry.
Your friend,
Larry (from OSHA)
-
\"Faulty?\" gas dryer
I recently hada new salesman at the appliance store I work at ask me to help him with a problem. It seems that a manaufacturer's service tech refused to fix a gas dryer for his customer, and could i get involved. A few questions later, I found out that the tech would not do the service call because the dryer had no external vent and was venting into the basement - and had been for about 4 months. Were these people thankful - no - they were p---ed that their dryer still did't work!!!
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Check this out.
No link needed here. Check out what happened AFTER the unit was "fixed"!!!
NORTH SHORE
FIRE DEPARTMENT
"Department personnel responded to a total of 86 calls for service between Nov. 29 and Dec. 6: 69 medical calls, 17 fire calls.
A faulty furnace caused a buildup of carbon monoxide in a house in the 500 block of E. Dean Road, Fox Point, on Nov. 29. The house was ventilated, the furnace turned off and the homeowner advised to call for repairs before turning it back on.
A faulty furnace caused a high level of carbon monoxide in a house in the 1800 block of W. Woodbury Lane, Glendale, on Nov. 29. Occupants reported feeling dizzy and were evaluated by paramedics. The house was ventilated and occupants advised to stay at a different location until repairs were made. After the furnace was cleaned, the resident called again and firefighters found low levels of CO in the house and advised her again to call a repairman and We Energies."
Now if the guy didn't know how to fix it the first time.........How will he know what to do this time?????
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
-
-
-
-
Mark
What Equipment do you use. We use the Fluke hand held unit and also a Testo for in the chimney. Are you talking mostly about testing around the heaters? I have to admit we have not until now used it on oil applications but will now.
We have found a lot of homes with clogged chimneys this year and the people were sick.
I even found a house that had just been purchased and I was giving an estimate to repipe a drain line and noticed water marks and rust at the water heater flue pipe. a closer look found the chimney to be clogged solid. An even further look after cleaning chimney and still not seeing light found the neighbors (this was a twin) had their side of the chimney lined. Guess what? They capped the whole chimney 14 months previously (this was done buy a pro). It went that long, then a sale, then a home inspection and finally a simple regular guy like me being nosy while pricing a piping job to figure this out. It is crazy.
I would love to know what you use.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
By the Dozen
http://nb.cbc.ca/regionalnews/caches/nb-hockey-poison20041223.html
I guess nobody was wearing their personal CO detector at the game!
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
C/O
I test every year our 1200 heating appliances.I found, at my neighbors, his mom cooking on a natural gas stove with a "flame diverter" that she had bought over the T.V. Her alarm had gone off. 4ppm in the garage, 45 ppm in the dining area and 190 ppm above the stove. Never use anything except your pots and pans on top of your stove.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Another Zamboni at the hockey game
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/01/31/arena-gas050131.html
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
