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    Energy Kinetics Prices (92 Posts)

  • jim jim @ 10:13 AM
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    You seem to have a lot of knowledge about something you really know nothing about. One of the factors that makes larger mass boilers comparitively inefficient is the amount of mass involved. If a boiler can heat quickly enough to start delivering heat 90 seconds after a thermostat call why maintain a buffer tank? The only time a buffer tank is recommended is for a radiant installation, where using a buffer tank as the heat source instead of maintaining temperature in the boiler makes more sense and is more efficient. Even a properly sized boiler is oversized on all but a few days of the year. In the shoulder seasons, as you have called them, the oversize factor tends to make boilers even less efficient. However, if most of the heat that has been generated is distributed to the heat or hot water when demand is satisfied, the effects of oversizing are nil. As far as the domestic hot water, PHE's are extremely efficient and very fast. In the small percentage of installations where the water is hard enough to cause fouling, treat the water with a scale preventive or install the PHE as a heating zone and there is no issue. The system is not designed to make instantaneous DHW for the fixtures, it replenishes the hot water being drawn from the storage tank. With a properly sized tank, running out of hot water or having to wait for it to be made just doesn't happen.
  • Ron Schroeder Ron Schroeder @ 10:34 AM
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    Hi Jim, The RATIO of thermal mass in the conditioned space to the thermal mass that can be lost up the flue is the ultimate limitation of efficiency so no matter how quickly the boiler can heat up a buffer can still help a low mass boiler have a higher SYSTEM efficiency whether it is a radiant system or not. Ron
  • jim jim @ 10:35 AM
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    doesn't change with the season, the whims of the sales rep or the time of day. Prices are set once a year, each dealer receives price sheets once a year and those prices are held for an entire year. What a dealer pays today, they will pay next week or next month until the next annual revision. How many other boiler manufacturers do that? A dealer can verify pricing and get a written quote before presenting a proposal to a client if they are uncertain of their cost. The policy of not releasing system prices to non-dealers helps protect dealers from being undercut in competitive bidding. Have you ever offered a proposal to someone and been hit with, "I called the supply house and I know how much it cost and I think you're ripping me off"? I don't believe I have ever heard anyone complain about getting better pricing by dealing directly with the factory and not having to pay a middleman to warehouse it and process the paperwork.
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 1:07 PM
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    Where do these guys come from? Jim, read my post above about distributors and wholesalers -- yea, the guys you call "middlemen." They are an intergral part of any real businessman's team. A tradesman who is only concerned about the price of his supplies is not a tradesman. He is a daylaborer who shops at Home Depot and ties pipe to the roof of his car. And I must disagree... plenty of folks complain about the better pricing they got -- when their crap doesn't work and they have no recourse except to some fools in a factory somewhere far away.
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 2:24 PM
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    Here's How EK Portects their Dealers:

    Only sells through dealers? Not like wholesalers? Buy one on ebay!! Search for Energy System 2000 on ebay. Thats $6600 for one steel EK-1 good for maybe 15 years. The same $6600 buys five Dunkirks good for 250 years. Gotta save a lot of fuel to make that work.
  • Constantin Constantin @ 3:51 PM
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    I guess it depends on the situation?

    My RFH system runs no hotter than 110, so a buffer tank or a high mass boiler that can run at very low temperatures looks like a decent solution for 1-stage oil applications. Otherwise, it could be raining for a good long time inside the combustion chamber/flue. If, on the other hand, the house has a number of low-mass zones such that the EK will never "see" a full load except 1% of the year, a buffer tank may very well be beneficial. At least this is the conclusion I come to after using siggy's HDS software and reading his book. If you have a more convincing argument why buffer tanks for low-mass boilers with high single-stage inputs and lots of zones are usually not necessary, let's hear it. Perhaps most heating systems have enough inherent mass, such that the system piping, rads, etc. act as a buffer? Converted gravity system most certainly fall into that category. Perhaps most other heat emitters/distribution systems do as well. But low mass emitters like zoned baseboard hooked directly to boilers with one-input burners have reportedly had problems. Usually heated via a tankless water heater this sort of system creates a condition that Mr. Bean describes as "snap, crackle, pop!". Perhaps the EK heat controller can avoid these sorts of pitfalls by handling loads more effectively than a tankless water heater... and if so, how? A number of homeowners here have reported great fuel savings and happiness with this boiler line. Just because I did not like their marketing tactics at the NEFI show does not mean that the boiler isn't a great one to have in one's basement. Plus, comparing boilers on the basis of list price for the basic unit alone is a bit simplistic... many boilers need additional parts to function well. Installation costs is another variable... some systems go in faster than others. One last thing to consider: I don't label you as ignorant, or brainwashed, or whatever because we disagree. That might be worth considering the next time you reply. And thanks for your observations from the field, that's where the rubber meets the road.
  • Howard Emerson Howard Emerson @ 7:28 AM
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    Hello John, The ebay seller is an authorized EK dealer, by the way. Also the offer includes all that you see in the picture including one zone and installation. So add all those things you see in the picture to one of your Dunkirks including your installation and see what you come up with. I had a Biasi priced out (4 times) with a Riello, SuperStor, and outdoor reset and it was more, to a lot more than than my EK-1 installed. It's so easy to see ONLY what you want to see when you need to make a point regardless of the facts. If my EK only lasts 15 years, only saving me a minimum 25% on fuel consumption, I'll have saved over $11,000 and can just put in a new one with half the savings. I know Scott Larabee (among others) pays attention, but for those who wish to make up their minds regardless of the truth: I'm a homeowner who plays and teaches guitar, does woodworking and has no affiliation with EK except for the fact that I own one of their fine products, installed by a fine, open minded heating man, Bob O'Brien of Techheat. Best regards, Howard
  • Dan Holohan Dan Holohan @ 8:07 AM
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  • Ken Ken @ 10:21 AM
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  • Dan Holohan Dan Holohan @ 5:24 PM
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  • Ken Field Ken Field @ 8:12 AM
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    Boiler durability

    I have been installing Energy Kinetics systems for almost 20 years and I still service the first one I ever installed. It shows no signs of wear and the efficiency is the same as the day it was installed. Although there is generally no warning before a steel boiler leaks (except those with coil gaskets), I would have no reason to believe that these boilers will not last well beyond the 20 years that we expect from a residential system. I don't know what the procedure is for becoming a dealer but I'm sure there are reasons why they don't direct mail price sheets to every contractor in the US. I once wanted to become a dealer for the EFM boiler which is manufactured in my area. They told me that another dealer was right up the street and I could not become a dealer with other dealers that close. I couldn't get parts either and had to get them through the local dealer. He was a friend of mine and I did just that for years. It was inconvenient and I hated to bother him but some things needed to come from EFM. As it turned out he moved and another dealer lost his business to his ex-wife and now their was not a local dealer. EFM called me and asked if I was still interested in becoming a dealer. I was still pissed off from being denied an account earlier and I told them I wouldn't install their boilers if they gave them to me. They sell me parts when I need them and I still am not a dealer. I know how you feel but there is no comparison between the EK system and a regular boiler. I don't stock $5000 in parts but if that is what it would take to keep my customers up and running I would not have a problem with that either. I say just get over it. Every system is not a fit for every contractor. Imagine how boring that would be. Ken Field (an Energy Kinetics dealer who replies 'at will' and not under the trance of Energy Kinetics voodoo) To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 8:01 AM
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    Open Mind

    You see, we went to them Thursday with open minds, both from a technological point of view and a marketing one. One of us is an engineer; one a master plumber licensed in 14 municipalities. We liked their product. We had one customer who asked us to install one. So we thought perhaps we could sell many of them. Maybe they would even "sell themselved" as a good product can. From the marketing side, we can't deal with the people. They woun't give us prices. Maybe they are a multi-level marketing scheme or their sales people beat each other with phones to get the commission. We don't know -- can't find out. But we can't tolorate trouble on the supply end when your firm buys sixty boilers a year. As to engineering, we search high and low for American products. That's all we install -- down to the last sill cock. IF it's not made here, we don't buy it. The EK people appeared to want to do it right with WARD fittings, and quality steel, etc. But the boiler is steel. That means simply that it will not outlast most cast iron boilers. It's life may be A QUARTER of the life of an iron boiler. It's controls and operation are basic -- good for easy service, wiring, etc. But they are nowhere near as advanced as the professional stuff we sell that resets temperature, and can be adjusted to the mass of the house. So we saw an easily installed boiler of a significantly shorter life than what we sell. We thought we had a strong market for these on the low end - tract house segment of our business. But their marketing and sales practices just don't make it worth our time and effort. For the Kenitic Koolaide drinkers out there, we're not knocking your choice of boiler. We actually think it's a cool thing. But like the manufacturer, don't mistakenly compare apples with oranges. Instead of comparing that EK with the 1944 American Standard coal conversion it replaced, compare it to a modern iron boiler with reset and post-purge controls that we install. In that comparison with name brand modern equipment, we are certain you will find similar if not better fuel savings, better control flexibility, comfort and at least 3 - 5 times the lifespan for a couple of bucks more. By the way,we are still awaiting the call from the Marrans, the company president and vice president who promised to call us Friday and make all the sales problems go away... I'm just gonna sit here by the phone, drink my coffee out of the nifty EK mug they gave me and wait for it to ring... Long Beach Ed
  • Roger Roger @ 11:43 AM
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    Continuous remarks

    Ed, I will call you this morning - I just returned from coaching football. For the record, I tried reaching you several times Friday morning at the number you left with our tech support staff although there was no answer and no way to leave a message. This was before I found this thread late in the day Friday. Firstly, I personnaly applogize for what appears to be significant mis-understandings on all sides and I will endeavor to resolve your concerns in an expedient and appropriate manner. Equally important, I appreciate the support from so many heating professionals and friends - it's wonderful to have all sides presented in such an open forum. Thank you all. There are many statements that I strongly feel should be addressed, although I will touch on a few this morning. As for the expected life of our System 2000, it carries a limited lifetime warranty and we back that up with the quality construction of our ASME design with 3/16" thick specially formulated steel. It should last 30 years or more (similar to the long lasting construction of great steel boilers like the GE from so many decades ago) - design and construction drive this. This is beyond the life of many cast iron boilers as I'm sure everyone is aware, although well constructed cast iron of course has a long life also. Regarding efficieny, Dr. Tom Butchers 2006 testing of seasonal efficiency still rates System 2000 as the most efficient and the lowest idle losses, even surpassing a 93% AFUE condensing boiler and high efficieny cast iron boilers with reset controls. Regarding our pricing, we have a trade price list and our dealers receive pricing from this list - it does not vary job to job, week to week, or at the whim of a saleperson or customer service. Fair pricing is our goal; even with the highly volatile commodity prices we are experiencing, we endeavor to keep prices as stable as possible with one price change per year if possible. Ed, I'm glad you enjoyed your coffee this morning - and appologize for not catching while it was still warm. Roger
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 11:49 AM
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    Thanks, Roger

    Hope you understand where all this is coming from. Thanks for the reply. Either I or Peter will speak with you soon. Hope we can work together on this... Ed
  • N/A @ 7:59 AM

    The discontent with Energy Kinetics is carried by a very vocal minority. I, along with other respected heating professionals in my area recognize Energy Kinetics as a comparable option other high end heating systems on the market. We also feel that EK's tech and dealer support is the best we have ever seen from a manufacturer. Many of the people who harbor such ill will towards EK I found have only either dealth with one in the field and do not understand the product, or have had one "bad" experience. As far as the bad experience goes,.. I can show up to the nicest customer in the world, but if I have a bad attitude towards them, the situation is not going to work out well. I feel alot of people go into a EK relationship with a chip on their shoulder just looking for anything negative to exaggerate. I can testify that all my dealings with Energy Kinetics people and products have been first class. And all my EK customers are very happy with performance and savings. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Howard Emerson Howard Emerson @ 10:43 AM
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    Hi Ken Secor, I'm not an expert on EK boilers and don't profess to be. Stop being so insecure about something that you don't agree with. I'm an expert at knowing that I'm old enough to make up my mind on something after I've asked enough questions.....even in the face of 'professionals' advising to the contrary. As far as my expertise on guitar, you're correct: I need my capo and I'm lost without it. I don't even play in standard tunings anymore. I've gotten lucky, I guess, with just sticking my fingers on the fretboard until something musical sounding came out. HE
  • Dan Foley Dan Foley @ 11:58 AM
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    Interesting Thread

    I don't have a pony in this race but I have found this thread interesting. I do not install EK boilers but I have serviced several. I do not have strong opinions one way or the other regarding this product - I have installed competing products that have served me well. I do not ally myself with any one product or manufacturer. Instead, I specify and install the product that I feel best fits the application. What I find interesting is the need for some to attack those whose opinions are different than their own. So EK goes to market in a manner different than their competitors? So what! Maybe, somewhere along the way, you were screwed by a manufacturer. Again, who in this business hasn't? To each their own. If you don't like a product, don't buy it. The market will sort out the inferior products. By the way Howard, I enjoyed your music. -DF (an aspiring, but strictly amateur, guitarist) To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Ken Ken @ 12:05 PM
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    Got my alphabet whacked out - yet again.
  • Dave Dave @ 12:51 AM
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  • rich pickering rich pickering @ 12:22 AM
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    I'm still curious what the head loss is.
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 5:42 PM
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    EK-2 Prices

    A client insists that we price out an Energy Kenetics EK-2 steel boiler for his home. Energy Kenetics woun't disclose their "factory direct" price to us unless we complete their one day training seminar in Jersey. In the meantime, can anyone here perhaps EMAIL us (Eag[email protected]) with what we'd expect to pay for an EK-2 boiler with their controls and heat exchanger but without their storage tank? Thank you. Geez... Long Beach Ed
  • Robert O'Brien Robert O'Brien @ 5:57 PM
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    does a fantastic job of protecting the integrity of their product by selling direct to contractors who have training in their products,rather than wholesalers who will sell to anyone who has a credit card. EK should be commended for this, not berated. Also their tech support is 2nd to none.And they're nice guys too! To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • N/A @ 7:14 PM
  • Leo Leo @ 7:19 PM
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    The company I work for

    The company I work for had a similar experience with a customer. EK had us start an account with them that was it. Now the local rep knows my boss and our company that may have helped. Try meeting the local rep that may help you. You do need the Manual for proper settings, like anything different it has some quirks but it is still running with an oil burner. I like them. Leo
  • Ron Schroeder Ron Schroeder @ 2:53 PM
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    I think that ebay item includes installation.
  • Mike Mike @ 7:23 AM
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    Jim, I've read your postings on this thread and have to ask. Are you affiliated with Energy Kinetics? If you are it would only be appropriate to state that somewhere. Maybe you did and I missed it.
  • jim jim @ 8:54 AM
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    > Jim, I've read your postings on this thread and
    > have to ask. Are you affiliated with Energy
    > Kinetics? If you are it would only be
    > appropriate to state that somewhere. Maybe you
    > did and I missed it.

  • jim jim @ 9:00 AM
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    Mike, yes I am affiliated with EK and usually either imply or state that in my posts. I am part of the Tech Support team and usually only post in response to misleading or incorrect information about our system. I'm not a salesman or engineer but come from a background of service and installation. Didn't intend to imply otherwise.
  • N/A @ 10:58 AM

    Disclosing a price is not the same as selling the boiler. Couldn't they let the guy figure his estimation costs and simply refuse to sell the boiler until he finishes the seminar?
  • jim jim @ 9:45 AM
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    My personal apologies if our seminar was so poor that you felt it was an endurance test. We never had any bad batches of welds, let alone "many" when another company was manufacturing the converters for us. Nor did we have to employ welders to run around behind the installers to repair them. The vast majority of systems installed since 1979 are still in service. Perhaps this was a misinterpreted statement? Most manufacturing operations were brought in-house for even better quality control and the flexibility to innovate that keeps us in the forefront in energy conservation. The only unique repair parts necessary for you to inventory for our system are a service board for temporary operation if the manager fails (list price about the cost of a good lunch) and, hmmm, I think that's it. If you pay five grand for that I have a bridge...
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 1:39 PM
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    Jim, The seminar was actually very good. The instructors had an ability to cover basic to advanced without puting anyone to sleep. Ans, as I said earlier, The food was much better than average. I walked away with a very thorough understanding of the product, got a great look at a rather exceptional American boiler plant and even saw your lab. Couldn't ask for more from a seminar. In fact right now, Peter and I were discussing it as we wait around for your rep to come visit this afternoon. Long Beach Ed
  • Ken Field Ken Field @ 10:22 PM
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    Theres a shoe for every foot

    I get a real kick out of the negative things people say about Energy Kinetics and their products. Especially the people who have possibly encountered one on a service call and not even taken the time to figure out what is going on with the operation. How can they be adjusted, you can't even see the fire (that has always been one of my favorites). I read all the trade magazines and attend at least two trade shows a year and have yet to see an oil system that has half the innovative features that are standard on the System 2000. I find it amazing what contractors will sell to get a jacket or a pair of boots. As far as I'm concerned when you see the performance of your cast iron boiler with a domestic coil, you will know what to do with the boots. After almost 20 years of using Energy Kinetics equipment, I have no complaints about the products, support, or even the prices. I will gladly pay more when I get more. If we do some pre-piping of that boiler in my shop during tech idle time, we can install it in no time in the customers basement. I'm no rocket scientist, but I know what features make sense in an oil heating system and everything I want I get in that system. Who else in the oil hydronic market has draft sensing with burner lockout on loss of draft (even in chimney applications), combustion air intake using 2" PVC pipe, a way to level the boiler besides shoving scrap metal under it, pump on the supply, and about 20 other configurations that make the homeowners more comfortable while saving substantial amounts of fuel. As soon as someone shows me an equivalent system for the money, I will offer it to my customers like I do the System 2000 and all the run-of-the-mill boilers that allow them to make their own choice. I would say that 1 out of 20 of my customers choose one of the lesser models and I think it is strictly a cost issue because the quality of the installation does not vary, only the equipment. The only thing that bothers me is I need a new pair of boots and will probably have to buy them myself. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Ron Schroeder Ron Schroeder @ 8:44 AM
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    Hi Long Beach Ed, I am sure that if you call Energy Kinetics and explain the situation They would give you a cost for a quote. Even if they didn't require it, it is enough "different" that you should take their course before installing one. By the way, I think the System 2000 is the highest operating efficiency non condensing heating system Brookhaven National Lab has ever tested.
  • Robert O'Brien Robert O'Brien @ 8:54 AM
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    Will this "friend" sell to your customers? Do you think your "friend" is concerned about cutting you out the chain by selling out of the trade? As long as the product moves,your "friend" could care less. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 1:09 PM
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    Doesn't sell out of the trade.

    My wholesaler doesn't sell outside of the trade. He feels that is wrong. He protects his customers. Maybe that's why I'm loyal to him and am his friend.
  • Robert O'Brien Robert O'Brien @ 8:56 AM
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    If I were you I wouldn't mention welding a steel boiler.If I'm not mistaken you need a ASME stamp? Correct me if I'm wrong To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • somebody somebody @ 9:20 AM
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    For most steel boiler welding, you would need an ASME "H" certification. We used a properly certified welder for the repair, as we do for all our work. Thanks for bringing that up. Welding pressurized things shouldn't be a hobby. And no, we don't sell Amway.
  • Mark Wolff Mark Wolff @ 3:28 AM
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    At the class I endured 5 months ago, the "instructor" talked about the MANY bad batches of welds they had when the systems were welded by an outside company. They had so many to repair, they started having welders fix them onsite to facilitate repairs. Besides the arguement that their boiler is special, all the disclaimers, lack of available pricing, relatively short service life(do you think those will last 30 years?), total lack of service parts availability (just put this bypass card in till Monday, or carry $5,000.00 worth of parts on your van) and overall used car salesman feeling, there really is no reason not to waste your money by paying double or triple the cost of a "lesser" product.
  • Paul Fredricks Paul Fredricks @ 8:44 AM
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    Has this post changed my view of EK! I find it hard to believe that a company works this way, but here are first hand accounts. I can only hope it's salesmen run wild and the company is just ignorant. Sounds like that would be the best case senario.
  • Constantin Constantin @ 9:04 AM
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    For what it's worth...

    ... I saw EK at the show in Boston one or two years ago (NEFI?, can't remember, sorry). The sales pitch was over the top and way to shrill for me. As long as residential US oil burners only have single-stage operation, I wonder if a low mass-boiler like the EK shouldn't be paired with a well-insulated buffer tank for the hydronic system and a IDWH for the domestic system. That largely eliminates short-cycling and minimizes stack losses also. The size of the buffer tank would depend largely on the mass of the system, perhaps large mass systems like gravity conversions wouldn't even need one. HDS would give that answer. Their approach of a flat-plate HX for the domestic hot water is a recipe for trouble in areas with hard water. Plus, this approach either induces a delay between the request for and delivery of hot water or the HX has to be kept warm, which largely negates the standby/flue heat loss advantage they claim. Given the experience that many contractors here have had with cold-start oil-fired boilers, I wonder if it isn't wiser to maintain a minimum temperature inside the boiler all year. My high-mass unit runs around 120°F all summer, presumably the flue stack/standby losses of a EK running at the same temperature would not be that different.
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 8:04 PM
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    Here it goes... As we posted earlier, Energy Kinetics would not give us prices for their equipment unless we become a "dealer". To do that we have to go to a class in New Jersey. "What the hell," said we, and we attended the class today. Yep, got up at 5:00 AM, took a day of our very busy week and I and a partner drove from Long Beach to Oyster Bay Cove to Manhattan to Jersey so we could learn the prices of this great equipment. We sat through a sales presentation. We learned how to vacuum a boiler. We learned how they make a steel boiler; how they shape and weld. We learned how to wire a boiler. Their very excited sales manager greeted us, told us how much he looked forward to doing business with us. We purchase perhaps 60 Burnham boilers a year, so perhaps this Kenitics sales guy was really happy to see us. He told us there would be an exciting "dealers package" awaiting us at the end of the class. My partner won a jacket, and I won a coffee mug. We ate a tasty lunch. We even paid $75 each for the sales presentation. When it was time to leave we went to the office to pick up our exciting package. Let's see... Videos... sales brochures... postcards... more sales brochures... no price list. NO PRICE LIST!!! "Hay, you think we can get a price list so we can sell this stuff" "The boilers sell themselves" "Well we quote jobs and we need to know our costs" "Go sell some jobs and call me and I'll tell you what they will cost you". "That would be hard to do, as you see, we compete with other plumbers who know the price of their equipment before they quote a price to their customers" "Well we don't usually deal with plumbers..." Now, maybe this Kinetic-Koolaide-Drinking-Salesman may not like dealigh with plumbers, but in New York City only a plumber can install a boiler if it happens to fill up with water. Just got back home to Long Island. It's 8 PM. Been out of the house fifteen hours for a drinking mug. But I did learn one lesson. Don't ever, ever, even think of selling an Energe Kinetics System 2000 boiler. Not on a dare. I tried, I really tried. I more than tried. Met these people more than half way. Met then at an old chicken farm in rural Jersey in fact. I'm even throwing out that Chinese coffee mig. Long Beach Ed
  • Perry Perry @ 8:46 PM
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    Could it be...

    that they think they fall into the class of products that sell regardless of price. The old mantra of: "if you have to ask, you can't afford it." Now I've occasionally eaten in restruants that do not have prices on their menues - and consider the experience worth the price (about $100 per person last time I did this); but most times I eat in a $15 - $25 per person resturant. Is this a boiler that only the super-rich buy where money is not a concern... and they buy exotic name brands (even if the company only makes a few a year - and I live within an hour of one of the premium luxury yatch companies in the world where this happens). Somehow I don't see a household boiler in this class. Is it just me? I love good marketing - and there is a place for the "no price" gambit; but I have to admit that you have me smiling at your experience. Perry
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 8:56 PM
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    I think...

    Perry, I suspect that it's more a case of them pricing the stuff on the fly, charging "whatever they can get". "Hay Billy, let's see what this loser will pay..." It's bad enough that I have to screw my supplier out of the business, that I have to order from the factory, that my other costs will go up because my gross purchases at the wholesaler have gone down. They have an interesting fair quality product with a definate niche market. I believe I could sell them if they were priced fairly. Perhaps even sell a lot of them. But we'll never know, will we? What an absolutely horrible way to do business. Long Beach Ed
  • Ken Ken @ 9:18 PM
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    I told you

    they were dirt-bags! They pulled an equally bad scene on me 20 years ago. I NEVER forgot it. I knew something was whacked when they summoned up all their "dealers" to run over and start the defense theme we read here for days... Hell, they even have a homeowner responding to their "circle the wagons" defense!
  • Jeff Burningham Jeff Burningham @ 5:23 AM
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    My story

    Sorry to hear you got burned, Ed. I usually do not post critical things on the web, but O wasted even more time and effort trying to sell their product that you did, and it cost me money. I went their dealer route, jumped through their hoops and sold about a half dozen EK-1's and 2's. I paid a different price for each boiler and had to haggle on every sale. The invoice was always higher than the agreed price which cost me more time and trouble. Yes, its lets make a deal and they feel you out and charge you whatever you will pay. Thats why they dont like dealing with the trade. They would rather deal with former Amway salesmen. I questioned a rather shoddy practice of theirs in the design and assembly of the boiler after an inspector brought up that it violated the local code. Their response was to drop me as a dealer and not respond to the problem. I had to modify the boiler at my expense or remove it. I removed it. One of the other boilers leaked after nine months. It was a nightmare. I ate that repair too, only because the comany played so many games that it was easier and cheaper to just weld the thing myyslef. Their technology does not match that of the top quality boilermakers. They charge a very or sometimes very very high price for a product which is inferior by mainstream standards. Any savings from their post-purge technology is quickly wiped out by their inferior durability. With the arrival of first rate controls by stand-up companies such as Tekmar, their primitive design simply does not compete with the mainstream. As a professional, as you seem to be by your "wholesaler" post above, you Ed, only stand to lose by dealing with these people. Your overhead is too high, your time too valuable and your reputation too important to buy snake oil from salesmen such as these. They did you a favor yesterday. Run away, and tell your customers to do the same. Jeff Allied
  • Big Bob Big Bob @ 8:22 PM
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  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 7:59 PM
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    You Woun't Believe this...

    Here it goes... As we posted earlier, Energy Kinetics would not give us prices for their equipment unless we become a "dealer". To do that we have to go to a class in New Jersey. "What the hell," said we, and we attended the class today. Yep, got up at 5:00 AM, took a day of our very busy week and I and a partner drove from Long Beach to Oyster Bay Cove to Manhattan to Jersey so we could learn the prices of this great equipment. We sat through a sales presentation. We learned how to vacuum a boiler. We learned how they make a steel boiler; how they shape and weld. We learned how to wire a boiler. Their very excited sales manager greeted us, told us how much he looked forward to doing business with us. We purchase perhaps 60 Burnham boilers a year, so perhaps this Kenitics sales guy was really happy to see us. He told us there would be an exciting "dealers package" awaiting us at the end of the class. My partner won a jacket, and I won a coffee mug. We ate a tasty lunch. We even paid $75 each for the sales presentation. When it was time to leave we went to the office to pick up our exciting package. Let's see... Videos... sales brochures... postcards... more sales brochures... no price list. NO PRICE LIST!!! "Hay, you think we can get a price list so we can sell this stuff" "The boilers sell themselves" "Well we quote jobs and we need to know our costs" "Go sell some jobs and call me and I'll tell you what they will cost you". "That would be hard to do, as you see, we compete with other plumbers who know the price of their equipment before they quote a price to their customers" "Well we don't usually deal with plumbers... " Now, maybe this Kinetic-Koolaide-Drinking-Salesman may not like dealigh with plumbers, but in New York City only a plumber can install a boiler if it happens to fill up with water. Just got back home to Long Island. It's 8 PM. Been out of the house fifteen hours for a drinking mug. But I did learn one lesson. Don't ever, ever, even think of selling an Energe Kinetics System 2000 boiler. Not on a dare. I'm even throwing out that Chinese coffee mig. Long Beach Ed
  • N/A @ 8:15 AM

    The regional rep that set me up as a dealer with a dealer ID # and all that was the one to give me the price list. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 7:55 PM
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    Thanks, Paul

    Paul, It usually takes two to miscommunicate, so I'll take some blame. For anyone reading who doesn't know, the controls on the EK are very basic. Different, yes, but very very easy to figure out, understand and bypass if need be. Minimal digital stuff and it can easily be bypassed. The limit controls are all conventional switches that you would have on hand and the boiler can work off these limits if the electronics gave up without rewiring anything. They do get high points for designing for easy service. These controls were clearly designed so a customer would never be without heat because an electronic control got zapped. That can't be said for too many others. Electronics usually have a long life, but if they die, it's over and nothing brings them back. To easily work around them is what servicemen dream about on cold nights. It's unfortunate that perhaps all other manufacturers design their stuff as if electronics last forever. Anyone who has had to bypass a computerized control by tracing and disconnecting wires in the cold dark would love the EK's design. Long Beach Ed
  • Cosmo Cosmo @ 9:30 PM
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    It takes a man of good character to pony up and tell us about the ph# problem. Good Job Ed, you da man. I think I fall in with Dan Foley, although I have never installed a new one I currently have 5 accounts where I have been servicing EK boilers for about six years now. I am also adamant not to be stuck to one particular brand, or model boiler. This not only gives me an open mind, but also makes me a better service technician, and I always sell a certain brand, model to fit the application, and budget. My opinion of the EK boiler? I would not hesitate selling one for my customer; however I do not necessarily need the prefab because I want to do that myself, but it is great for replacement work when time is short. I also am a little perplexed about the way the boiler is piped from the factory (I assume) with the location of the P&T gauge, and how it is piped into part of the supply to return bypass. I cannot say that it does not work, because it reads the temp fine, I am just not used to seeing it that way. As far as a comparison to other steel boilers go I think it is important to see the EK as part of a system. I am not sure about the energy saving claims, but I cannot scientifically dispute them either. I would rate the EK as being in the top tier of available steel boilers. Right up there with the Trianco Max from Laars, and the Burnham mini oil boiler (forget the name, sorry Glenn). The distinction is the control, and the fact that it can include the required near boiler piping out of the box. Personally I prefer using higher mass cast boilers when using single stage oil burners for reasons mentioned above by Constantin. I also really like the fact that boilers like the Viessmann Vitorond, Vitola, Crown Freeport, Burnham MPO, Buderus, Biasi, Weil Ultra oil, etc have no kaowool target walls/combustion chambers like EK, and other steel boilers. Yes one can make the point that the kaowool chambers clean up the combustion more than the wide open cast iron, however Viessmann worked around this problem using tough Stainless Steel burn shields that do the same job, and should last as long as the boiler compared to the kaowool. Another consideration is the fact that the factory has a sales rep that must come to my shop. Although I can appreciate the gesture, I do not need this kind of hand-holding. Further, it is very difficult to get me to commit to any kind of appointment other than with my customers; unfortunately I do not have a lot of extra time between changing all the different hats I wear in my business to meet with sales reps. One day maybe, but not right now. Yes, it may be petty, but there it is. As far as service life, I do not think a quality steel boiler has much of a longevity problem compared to cast as long as it is properly installed, setup, and maintained. Thing is, I just like good old cast iron. Makes you feel like you put in a good days work after moving one, no? When talking efficiency, it is hard to compete with the gas MOD/CON. Cosmo
  • Ken Ken @ 11:14 AM
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    I agree with everything cosmo

    writes, and also give Ed high marks on doing a classy 180. But I will always have second thoughts about EK. The reason? Imagine where Ed and EK would be at this moment, were it not for the open dialogue and incredible pressure the "bad press" of this website, ultimately brought them both! Thank you Dan, for allowing the mice to roar.
  • Howard Emerson Howard Emerson @ 9:25 AM
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    Hello Ken Field, I hope you don't mind my mentioning that (I believe) you're a moderator over on the 'Do It' forum, correct? You're the voice of reason over there as well:-) Years ago I used to be a contractor specializing in building bathrooms. I did all my own tile, carpentry and cabinetry, but the plumbing and electric I had done by licensed installers who did my requests 'To a T'. I do remember that with many of the accounts that I set up, I had to go through a credit check before I was able to get dealer price lists and such. I have a sense that may be the issue here, but I'm interested to see how it all plays out. I also think that there's something deeper going on here that has more to do with the intrinsic appeal of cast iron and its history VS steel. Under the guise of 'marketing complaints' I think there lurks a disdain similar to that held by older consumers during the quick rise of Japanese vehicles. Of course it needn't even be an older consumer. It could just be the chip off the old block who believes the same stuff that the block believed. Old habits, old beliefs, old sweaters, old furniture.........They're comfortable sometimes.....sometimes too restrictive, though. Glad you enjoyed my music, Dan! Best regards, Howard Emerson
  • N/A @ 10:34 AM

    we have a contractor client who has been installing these things for at least 15 years, maybe longer, and to the best of my knowledge he's never had to replace one either. This with a wide variety of high temp, high temp/radiant, and pure radiant systems, I might add. I know very little about EK except they make some odd choices with how they choose to package their boilers (odd, to me, from an "extreme custom" end of things..) and that this contractor, whose field experience and knowledge I have immense respect for, is very pleased with their field performance. If the choice has to be oil, then I'm confident the boiler, properly installed, performs well and has at the very least a very acceptable lifespan.
  • Howard Emerson Howard Emerson @ 10:45 AM
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    Hi Rob, Gee how refreshing open minded:-) Even though I'm not an expert on EK boilers, I do know that they run on oil, gas or propane. Best, Howard
  • N/A @ 10:52 AM

    Yes, they do, but if you are using gas or propane, basically any of the new modulating/condensing boilers will beat any of EK's offerrings that I am aware of. So for oil the EK's can be good, or a good solid conventional boiler with total tekmar firing control. But gas, I wouldn't bother.
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 5:28 AM
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    Kinetics Came Through

    We got out price book. We're EK dealers now. Yesterday, far into the night, I might add, we got a visit from EK's regional manager, who brought a boiler with him. Yes he did. Fired it up too. Don't even ask how that happened, but it did. Excellent demonstration that gave us lots of pointers on selling the product, which we hope will somewhat sell itself. We have been specializing in steam boilers, breaking our backs trying to compete with oil companies, handiman and foreigners who offer cheap prices and shoddy work. We hope the EK can make our lives as plumbers a bit easier and more profitable. Since the product is clearly giving the customer huge benefits in efficency, we hope they will be happier parting with the cash. The unit is the easiest to install, comes-pre piped and wired, is lightweight and is very competitive with a quality installation in cost. After our visit last night, we understand the posters who replied to our rant claiming that EK's service was "first class". No other manufacturer ever brought a boiler to our shop and fired it up. No other rep spent several hours with us describing the programs available to help us market their product. We hope those who read our original complaints are reading this. The folks we met at EK are hard working, dedicated guys. They believe in their product and we understand why. We believe, as they do, that it has a very strong market. Not many people I know would fire a boiler in a driveway on a 40 degree night for a dealer. They did. Thanks, Energy Kinetics for the patience and help. Again, I apologize for the misunderstandings on my end; perhaps we both learned from them. Now we just have to go out and sell... Long Beach Ed
  • Howard Emerson Howard Emerson @ 7:48 AM
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    Hi Ed, Nice to hear that everything has been worked out. If you go to this link and scroll down, you'll be able to see how they brought the boiler to shop for a demo: Same guy? Best regards, Howard
  • Ken Field Ken Field @ 8:57 AM
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    Good Luck

    Wish you much success with the System 2000. I'm gald you got the misunderstanding resolved and realize why others were so confused with your experience. Enjoy your 'Kinetic Kool Aid', it is refreshing. Ken To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Ken Ken @ 10:56 AM
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    Bob, Your comment about the friend with 15-year EK installation experience is interesting. Making it sound as if this information makes the EK somehow "better" or "quality" is mis-leading. Having been in this business for over 40 years, I can say without reservation, many of our 600+ customers have been with us for much of that period, a handful for the entire 40 years, and well OVER the 15-year time-frame you observe, installing Weil McLain, Utica, Peerless, Munchkin, Teledyne, Smith, Viessmann, as well as servicing virtually every boiler maker on the planet from 2-BHP to 5000-BHP, and have yet to replace any of those installs! I suggest the boiler brand is intersting, the installation however, is everything! Maintenance is a major factor as well, but that's a given; or should be.
  • N/A @ 11:01 AM

    All I am saying is, if you are going to assume they "don't last", at least understand what kind of lifespan you're talking about. They aren't failing in 5, 10, 15, or apparently 20 years. how much more do you really want? I'm not saying other boilers don't last that long.. simply responding to the poster who was talking about his disbelief that the boiler holds up in the field. I'm not brand loyal at all unless a particular boiler has a feature I particularly need for a particular project.
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 2:35 PM
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    Just got off the phone with Energy Kinetic's vice president. A real gentleman to give up part of his Saturday to speak with little 'ole Long Beach Ed. Seems he tried all day to reach us yesterday; the number we gave him was bad, the phone unplugged, and I'm deeply sorry for saying that we hadn't heard from them. The fault was ours alone. Our problem was not with the product, which we'd still like an opportunity to learn its price and to market, but with the dealer structure. We still can't sell the product to our customer who wants one -- we still don't have a price. Next week, we hope, we'll get a visit from EK's sales guy who'll check out that we're legit. There were some misunderstandings about who we were when we treked out to the former farm for their seminar. I think it could save lots of time if we could just send our business certificate, insurance, licenses, etc, but they want to visit. So far, two guys are into this effort for 14 hours plus about two hours of phone calls. A nice visit with the sales man at the office will be another hour or so for at least one of us and a pot of coffee. For the record, the VP we spoke with was a gentleman. The technical folks at their factory were great guys and the lunch was good. But my only issue still remains. I can pick up the phone and have a Burnham boiler dropped off here in an hour. It's been 31 man-hours and I still don't have an Energy Kinetics EK-1 price. Unless the onset of senility renders me incapable first, I still look forward to quoting and offering the product. Long Beach Ed
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 4:43 PM
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    We got our information!

    Generally, after another phone call from EK's guy we now know enough to quote the job. EK has bent over backwards to help us. And just in case anyone's curious, the equipment is competitively priced if you value the labor you save and the ease of installation. Very reasonably priced if a customer can be educated on the merits and features offered. For the fuel savings it offers, the price is good. Period. The tough part is educating a customer who doesn't worry about fuel costs because that is tomorrow's problem. Today's problem is finding the cheapest gypsy to install the cheapest junk so he can have heat again. People spend money because of pleasure or pain. A boiler sale is painful. Got to make them see the pleasure in saving fuel. Now let's see if we can sell these things... Thanks, Energy Kinetics for the lunch, the coffee mug and for doing the right thing by us. And thanks to those who offered their educated thoughts and experiences in this thread. This is what the Internet's all about. Right Dan? Thanks Dan. Long Beach Ed
  • Dan Holohan Dan Holohan @ 5:00 PM
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  • Paul Fredricks Paul Fredricks @ 6:59 PM
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    Great comments Ed. I, probably along with the rest of the Wallies, have been following this thread with great interest. We don't handle the EK line. Years ago I worked for a company that did and my current company has a few that we service. Adding all that up, I can say that I like the product, the tech support is terrific and they make some of our guys nervous since they are different. We can deal with the techs. I also feel that any operational problems, including leaks, probably stem from improper installation. I'm glad that EK appears to be ironing out what seems like communication problems on their end. Good for them. God I love the wall!
  • David Sutton David Sutton @ 4:11 PM
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    Phew !! Long post, but worth every word

    First i feel like i just watched a long tennis match Over all.... i learned allot about makng a snap disision. I have installed and serviced EK,s and yes they have good points and Bad but so dont most of the things we sell and install. What i learned most...Talk it out !! Thank you to all who added to both sides, i need a nap now David
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 8:18 PM
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    Never looked at it that way, Robert. As annoying as the "$75 marketing seminar" may be, it does keep the product and prices out of the general public's hands which does protect us somewhat. Just annoying to a guy who's trying to bid a job and is honest enough to go research instead of just discouraging the homeowner. Long Beach Ed
  • GW GW @ 2:56 PM
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    a pro

    you are a true gentleman. If I got roadblocked like that I would not have done what you are doing. My hat is off. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 2:37 PM
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    Figure on your cost of about $3200. Just plain silly considering it's 160 lbs of welded steel and that none of it goes to a dealer or jobber. If this customer insists, send him elsewhere. Not worth the bother.
  • Al Gregory Al Gregory @ 4:28 PM
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    Are you serious? That is the contractors price?
  • Howard Emerson Howard Emerson @ 7:20 PM
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    Kenny, Why is it just plain silly that it may have a contractor cost of $3200? Why should any of it go to a dealer or a jobber? Can a tech, even one like you, figure out how to install it with a helper in a day and make yourself a good living and end up having your customers save money on oil? Is that within your realm, Kenny? Regards, Howard (an EK-1 owner)
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 9:30 PM
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    Howard -- My Wholesaler is My Hero!

    My wholesaler is a part of my business. We work together and depend on one another. We know each others' families and kids. We have coffee together and share in the good times and bad. We've been partners now for almost 30 years. My wholesaler spends my money in my neighborhood. He supports my kids' little league team. He tells me of new products and helps me with ideas of how others are increasing their profits or doing better work. And when I have a problem with a boiler, it's my wholesaler who spends all day on the phone protecting my profits so I don't have to lose a day's work. That protects my customers because my wholesaler has much more clout with the manufacturer than do I. If the manufacturer chooses to cut the wholesaler out of the sale, it GREATLY increases my risk and liability and nonsense. It makes my job harder and more costly. It should lower the price of the product and I should be compensated for my loss. The EK-1 may or may not be a good piece of equipment. But with sales practices like theirs, my customers will never get to find out. Long Beach Ed
  • Ken Ken @ 5:44 PM
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    I do not

    bash the euro boilers. I own one! I bash their insipid marketing and false claims of superior engineering, etc. The only thing superior about the euro or EK boiler is the pricing. In EK's case, selling direct cuts out wholesale margins, which are nominal anyhow on iron (steel). And will make parts impossible to get from anyone but them. I am not a big fan of vertical distribution schemes. Never was; which is why I would also rag out Lennox. They even have territorial boundries! Talk about restraint of trade! If EK wishes to go that route, let 'em. We do not have to follow however. I still have a bad taste from EK from years ago. If you're going to put words in my mouth, at least make some attempt at being accurate.
  • tom tom @ 5:51 PM
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    And if it wasnt for those evil Japanese for making and marketing their cars better , the big 3 would still be making Pintos and Kcars
  • Patchogue Phil Patchogue Phil @ 6:11 PM
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    Pintos and KCars

    Pintos and KCars were the lame attempts at being competitive with those evil Japanese for making and marketing their cars better.
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 3:09 PM
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    Sounds a little silly to me...

    All we wanted was a price on a piece of equipment. Even though we don't like screwing our supplier out of a sale, if we were given the price and a somewhat technical brochure we could quote the job. We're licensed engineers and master plumbers. With that information in hand we could probably figure out for ourselves simply how great the EK heating marvel is. Better yet, even if we weren't sold on it or didn't like it, we could price the job for the customer who wanted the thing. Which we cannot now do. Since the customer is already sold on our firm, EK is losing the job as we cannot supply a price. Looks like this one is going to get three of those neat fully condensing stainless Peerless wonders with the upside-down burners. Long Beach Ed
  • Ken Ken @ 5:32 PM
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    You nailed it. Spot on. The "homeowner" who has all the answers, and no prices has an "interest" that suggests he is no "meer homeowner". You don't suppose he works, or a close relative/friend works with or at EK, now do you?(;-o)
  • Long Beach Ed Long Beach Ed @ 6:31 PM
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    It's Unfortunate

    Too bad I can't work with this company. Sure, I'll take their $75 marketing course, but the Peerless's will be installed long before the course is available. I'll sell anything that a customer demands, as long as I outline my responsibilities in the contract and the thing meets codes. Sort of like my policy with my teenage daughter. I don't give advice unless it's asked for unless, of course if not giving it boarders on criminal. Long Beach Ed
  • Scott Scott @ 9:16 PM
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    Ken, if you are refering to Mr. Emerson, he actually spent a lot of time researching his options. He had postings on OTT and I believe here as well. His system was installed by Techheat. He is simply a knowlegable homeowner who is sharing his experience. As I said he did his homework! He is not saying anything other than what he found during his research, and from his personal experience. I really don't think he is like some of the HO I have seen who are asking questions one day, and trying to pass themselves off as a pro the next. I do know that some of the contracters he talked to, put down the system 2000 mainly because they did not understand them. I myself have not installed any. I am a dealer, and have ordered parts for a few I have in the field. Dealers get a discount. If your not a dealer, you can still buy parts, but you pay a higher cost which you have to pass on to the customer. Very simple. They are a great company to deal with, and the tech. support is second to none! I just wanted to point out what I knew about this HO, as I have followed his threads on OTT. Assuming you haven't, I know where you're coming from! Scott
  • Ken Ken @ 10:01 AM
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    I was unaware OTT had changed their forum from "no homeowners, only professionals." Since Howard openly states he is NOT in the trades, merely a guitar player/teacher and homeowner with rather strong defensive ties to the boiler he heats his home with, I'm surprised he was even allowed "in" at George's place! I go there often and don't recall him posting anything. Probably slipped under my radar.
  • Dan Holohan Dan Holohan @ 11:49 AM
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  • Howard Emerson Howard Emerson @ 10:20 AM
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    Hello Ken Secor, I posted here when I was going through all my research for a new boiler. It was a rather long post so you may well have ignored it due to its length (I've done that plenty of times too), so I'll email you a copy so you can see how I arrived at being a "...homeowner with rather strong defensive ties to the boiler...." I heat my home with. I think that maybe if you read it, you'll see I did my homework, looked around, asked questions on at least 4 forums of professionals like yourself, and weeded through some absolutely moronic statements from some otherwise intelligent people, and ended up making my own decision that I'll live with good or bad, and will have no trouble admitting it if it's bad, or gloating if it's good:-) I can tell you know a lot about what you do Ken, it's just that your emotions get in the way sometimes. Best regards, Howard
  • jim jim @ 4:10 PM
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    Ek pricing

    Even if you had a firm price, which you can't get without being set up as a dealer, you couldn't buy one without being setup as a dealer.
  • Howard Emerson Howard Emerson @ 11:06 AM
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    Rob, When you figure out the cost of a job, does the labor figure into the cost? If he doesn't take the seminar and find out all the stuff he WON'T HAVE TO DO with an EK boiler, how will he be able to price it correctly...? Or maybe he can just figure his normal boiler installation labor and pocket the labor savings instead of passing it on to the customer. HE
  • N/A @ 11:07 AM

    Gee, I don't know, maybe a BROCHURE? ;-)
  • N/A @ 7:48 AM

    Boiler, circulator, hot water storage tank, plate exchanger, near boiler "pumping away piping already fitted, copper zone headers, 3 zone valves, pressure reducing valve, backflow preventer, bronze hot water circulator, burner, 10 micron oil filter, vacum guage, flexible oil line, and misc fittings. Thata a hellof a lot. try pricing out all that stuff individually and you'll be right around the EK price. The only thing I need to provide is an expansion tank, oil line, electrical, fluepipe, and my copper zone connections. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me. Makes pricing a job, AND the prep work easy. Im not wasting a day at the supply house with a huge list. The boiler is shipped with just about everything I need for the job To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Ken Ken @ 8:56 AM
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    Especially in light of the major weakness of all EK S-2000's being the FP HX (leak city!) and if you need two or four zones... The price is absurd and lack of parts availability from wholesalers, an "angle" fraught with negatives. The only thing "special" about the EK is the marketing scheme.
  • tom tom @ 5:47 PM
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    Ken, Why is it you hate marketing so much. Every good company in the world markets if they didnt they wouldnt sell anything ( if I hear the new John mellancamp song for Chevy one more time Im gonna puke ) Do you like anything, or are you as misserable as you seem?
  • Ken Ken @ 8:36 PM
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    If you need to ask...

    Why I, or anyone else for that matter, "hates" marketing so much, perhaps you should stop and think a minute. We are assualted with phone calls, TV ad time, our mail boxes are jammed with junk mail, people in your face to sell something, Billboards accross America, radio blitzes, high pressure, non-stop invasions. We see, read and hear it so often, we become desensitized. I think it's out of hand. Absurdly so. You don't mind? Good for you. Don't ever change. If you love the tedium, the boredom and the lies, that's okay - for you. Just don't jam it down my throat!
  • Robert O'Brien Robert O'Brien @ 9:16 AM
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    You bash the Euro's,then bash EK which is made in USA.What's left?Why not give a positive? Tell us what you like and why? I like any quality made and supported product regardless of where it's manufactured.Didn't the presence of the Euro's force the USA mfg's to step up their game? At least give them credit for that To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • jim jim @ 4:32 PM
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    If you need

    2 or 4 zones, you plumb them and wire them. What's the issue? The PHE is not a weak point by any means. However, it is up to the installer to determine local water quality, same as if you install a tankless coil. If the water is hard do something about it beside blame the equipment. Leaks? Seldom. PHE's are used residentially and commercially for heating, cooling, chemical processing, etc. The only parts not available from a wholesaler are the system manager and the digital temperature sensor, period. Misinformation such as this is one of the reasons the company wants all dealers to take part in a service seminar.
  • steve steve @ 10:25 AM
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    Wouldn't a buffer tank minimize short cycling in a system with relatively little thermal mass? And doesn't short cycling reduce combustion efficiency? I suppose if you can dump the heat left in the boiler after the burner stops(which I understand the EK boiler does) the buffer tank wouldn't be needed to reduce standby losses through the flue.
  • jim jim @ 11:13 AM
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    I have not encountered any issues with short cycling with any of the systems I've installed or any feedback from other installers unless the system was grossly oversized, then the normal problems encountered from oversizing any boiler such as sooting, condensation, etc can occur. Even though I am no longer in the service business full time, I still maintain some of the equipment I installed over the years and I'm quite pleased with the long term performance of those systems. Thermostats don't short cycle because of the post purge which tends to lengthen the time between calls without overheating the zone. Independent testing has confirmed that with the low mass and energy recovery cycle, System 2000 is one of the most efficient systems they ever tested. There's an old saying, "the proof is in the pudding", meaning that theories and formulas tend to be speculative but when something works like it's claimed (or better), that's the proof.
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