Heating Help

no vents upstairs

Well, as we were considering bleeding the valves upstairs, we came to learn those baseboards do not have them. I'm guessing when our Cape was built the upstairs was not completed until later and they didn't put the bleeder valves in.

Kris

is there a shut off on the return from that zone and a bioler drain near before it, you may have to purge it from the basement. If the circulators are on the returns that is usually where the shutoff and dpurge valve are.

exactly

We believe we have successfully purged!

Well you should know shortly good luck

Tuesday Morning Update

Last night we found out there was no water coming through the return pipe, boiler needed water. After filling and purging pressure went immediately up. Still No heat upstairs but......in one of the bedrooms upstairs the pipe in the baseboard is hot, but it doesn't seem to be radiating any heat. In the other bedroom the pipe is cold and obviously not radiating heat either. On the positive side, the house seems to be heating a lot faster, quieter and evenly...the pressure is still at 18. Maybe we didn't purge/bleed long enough? I feel like we're on the right track, just not quite there yet.

Purging and Bleeding

has a certain Medieval Medical ring to it, does it not? A little more purging seems to be in order. If you get desperate, a saddle-type needle valve makes and OK air vent for those stubborn pockets. But the 18 lbs. sounds good, it should be enough to compress the air and force it out when called upon.

bleeding

How long should I bleed for?? In other words, I'll attach the hose again, run it outside and open the valve...how will I know when it's done?

A steady stream of water

with no obvious entrained air is what you want. When will it be done? You will know by the fact that you have heat and no gurgling. But stop when you get a steady stream and the stream runs for another minute or two at least. (The term "purging" as I use it, means the flushing of air out of piping using sheer water power. The term "bleeding" means the releasing of air from high points using vents. If you have no vents, you now know, you must purge.) The key principles are velocity and pressure. You should hear a good rush (velocity noise) which is what you need to force air -which wants to bubble up to the top of the system- to be carried away with the water. As part of maintaining velocity, you want to "Focus" your purging on one zone at a time. If the zone splits in two, see if you can isolate each branch and purge them separately. The second part is pressure- think of choking down the outlet a little bit. "Back-pressure" we call it. This ensures that air bubbles are squeezed together where they touch and so get carried out together; that is the best way I can explain it. If you dribble in water under low velocity and pressure, by contrast, you will possible entrain more air into the system. Fill that sucker with water! I have purged entire circuits in five to ten minutes. Some have taken 30 minutes or more and some repeated attempts. Depends on length, pipe size, how many "side roads" and available water pressure.

didn't purge correctly

I don't think we purged the right valve...I count four...one low thinner pipe on the boiler and three on the ceiling on thicker pipes running to the baseboards....

Without Photos - Re-post with diagram

I will have to guess here that the thinner pipe at the boiler is the cold water fill line (maybe?). The valves going to the baseboard, are these drain valves with hose-ends or are these isolation valves in-line? Are there also drain valves on the return side? Let me see if I can re-post with a diagram to illustrate what I mean. Brad EDIT: Re-posted with diagram, just to illustrate what I hope you have for a set-up. But if you have photos, post them by all means!

I do have photos!

> I will have to guess here that the thinner pipe
> at the boiler is the cold water fill line
> (maybe?). The valves going to the baseboard, are
> these drain valves with hose-ends or are these
> isolation valves in-line? Are there also drain
> valves on the return side? Let me see if I can
> re-post with a diagram to illustrate what I
> mean.
>
> Brad

I do have photos!

Can I email them to you?

You should

post them here. That way everyone learns.

pictures posted here

If you can help me identify which valve/valves to use, that would be great!

Glad to help

Glad to help, guys. It might not be such a bad idea to provide customers with similar diagrams after installations.

Pressure relief valve

I labelled the pressure REDUCING valve, which is the fill valve. That's the one that you use to let water into the boiler. I didn't label the pressure RELIEF valve, which automatically opens if the pressure gets too high. You can also use it to manually reduce the pressure a little bit. The two valves look similar but are very different, don't confuse them! The pressure relief valve on your boiler is coming out of the top. You can see it in the far corner on your picture. It's the one with the pipe coming out, and heading down toward the ground at an elbow - that pipe ends, open, before reaching the ground. If you lift the handle on the relief valve, it'll let some water out through that pipe, reducing the system pressure. You might have slow drip for a couple of days, but it'll eventually stop. Your boiler pressure is related to the maximum height of the system above the gauge. Unless you've got really high ceilings or three floors, 20psi is high. You can drop it down to the 12-15 range. Mark

PERFECTION !!

I can finally say.......everything is perfect!!! Thank you all for your help. I have learned a great deal!

I bet that feels really, really good

at a number of levels, Kris- Career change for you? Thanks for letting us know how it turned out. Mitch et. al. did bring up some excellent points about the process which fortunately did not apply to you in any haste but for future reference they should be heeded by most of us. This was in a way analogous to talking down a plane from the control tower with a non-pilot at the controls.... Good for you, Kris. Happy Heating, Brad

Great story

I plan to bookmark this and write up an edited version for my eCommerce focus issue in The NEWS next month. Good stuff from a a lot of very good professionals posting on a very, very good discussion board!

Exactly

Perfectly Put!

Thanks, Paul and Mark...

Does any one know of a similar program for P.C.s? Boy that sounds a lot like that commercial thats been running on tv lately dosen't it? Thanks again, C

I can physically change the pressure?

Yes, by

adding water. As stated elsewhere, do not do this when the boiler is hot. From the sounds of things you have heat on the lower floors but the upper floor seems to be dry. If the system can be assured of having water in it, shut it off and let it cool. Add water slowly via the fill valve lever until the gauge pressure rises to about 15 PSI. Then vent the radiators at the top level. Doing this will reduce the pressure and may not be enough to fill the top of the system. Close the vents, go back to the basement and fill once again. Back upstairs to vent until you get a good solid stream of water out of each vent without sputtering (you or the vent) :) . Top the pressure off to at least 12 PSI at the boiler. Once filled with water, turn the power back on to the boiler. You may hear some gurgling of trapped air and this can be vented off soon thereafter. If you have any doubts whatsoever, call a pro.

pressure might be too high?

Between adding water to the boiler and purging, our pressure has been at 18.....do I need to get it down to 12? How ?

18

Anything under 20 psi should be ok. Hope it all works out. -Andrew

can't thank everyone enough !!

So...

You have heat now? :)

bleeding the baseboard

I've also read I should try using the bleeder on the baseboard upstairs....any thoughts?

See above and

check your expansion tank. Edit- As Andrew said, look for obvious signs of leakage. If the loss of pressure (water volume) was this sudden, there should be some sign of it. Where are you located?

pressure

Your current pressure of 2psi tells me that there is not much reserve fluid ,if any, in your system. It is possible that opening the vents on the baseboard upstairs will let more air in rather than letting air out. You need more fluid in the system in order to bleed the air. Something has leaked to the point where your pressure is low and air has entered the system. The source of this leak should be determined when re-pressurizing the system. It sounds as if you need a service call from a professional. -Andrew

2 psi

Sounds like you are out of water and may damage your boiler. I would shut it down and call a pro. If your gage is off and you run the boiler dry you could damage it, if it is running dry and you add cold water to a hot boiler someone could get hurt. Mitch To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Out of water where? We have plenty of hot water and the rest of the house is heating normally.

Karl

You made me curious, Murph', so I used the Wall search engine to check if we've ever helped any homeowners named Karl. Turns out we have!

No Dan

No reference To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Many Thanks...

Again, many thanks to those who helped. To those who are professions, I'm sure you felt like you were dealing with a school kid, but this every day Mom appreciates all your patience and kindness!! What really prepared me to do this was the labeled pictures though, without it I may not have attempted this. By the way....it is now framed next to our boiler!

confused?

Not sure if you are refering Karl to me, not getting the joke. I sincerely hope you are not excusing me of stating kids cold need help as a way to get responses. Just to clarify...we live in Ma, and started to use the heat, realized it wasn't working upstairs...then this past week it was unseasonably warm, so we weren't using the heat again so that was why we just did it. I came across this board while looking for answers to the problem, barely living paycheck to paycheck was why we were trying to do this ourselves especially with Christmas on the way. For those of you who offered assistance, we thank you so much. For the other comments...I just don't get it.

> Not sure if you are refering Karl to me, not
> getting the joke. I sincerely hope you are not
> excusing me of stating kids cold need help as a
> way to get responses. Just to clarify...we live
> in Ma, and started to use the heat, realized it
> wasn't working upstairs...then this past week it
> was unseasonably warm, so we weren't using the
> heat again so that was why we just did it. I
> came across this board while looking for answers
> to the problem, barely living paycheck to
> paycheck was why we were trying to do this
> ourselves especially with Christmas on the way.
> For those of you who offered assistance, we thank
> you so much. For the other comments...I just
> don't get it.

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No Joke

"I sincerely hope you are not excusing me of stating kids cold need help as a way to get responses. I came across this board while looking for answers to the problem, barely living paycheck to paycheck was why we were trying to do this ourselves especially with Christmas on the way." Kris, Please EXCUSE my antagonistic approach (something I grew up around) but you fail to take the advice from the "Pros" who tell you to get your system checked by somebody in the field. Of course not taking anything away from the responders knowledge, but they are not there (you may miss some things). They are only gone by some (mis?)labled pics. yes perhaps maybe a "pump" was changed a few years ago but appearently nothing else was done for awhile, hence your airlocked system. Though I have been AWOL here at Heating Help .com, I still recieve many news alert to systems wiping out families from non-maintenance issues!! Please dont take this as a crack toward you personally: More to come.........stay tuned. Murph'

Diagram

I've labeled the valves in this picture for you. Try to purge from the blue guys on top - use the one that goes to the second floor, if you can figure out which. One of the blue valves up top is hiding behind another pipe in your picture, but I found him. If you want to use the one I've labeled "alternate purge," leave the red one on top that I've labeled "close me" open. When you're done, put all the valves back the way you found them.

Mark

Can I ask what computer program u used to do the labeling on the photo? Thannx

GraphicConverter

Paul, I used a program called GraphicConverter to mark up Kris' photo. It's available for Macs only, but it's been described as a Swiss Army knife for images, and it's great when you don't need something heavy - not to mention, it's inexpensive. I've been a user for about ten years.

Ditto

what Brad said, Mark. Jack

Mark...

I cannot tell you how much this helps and how much we appreciate it! This picture will most likely get framed next to our boiler for future reference as well! We will attempt to purge after work today...luckily we're having another unseasonably warm day so the kids aren't complaining about their rooms being cold. I'll let you know how we make out.

Mark...

I cannot tell you how much this helps and how much we appreciate it! This picture will most likely get framed next to our boiler for future reference as well! We will attempt to purge after work today...luckily we're having another unseasonably warm day so the kids aren't complaining about their rooms being cold. I'll let you know how we make out.

Excellant Mark

but if he tries to purrge with the via alternate purge with the red on top open he will be purging both at once and probably not get all the air out of the top zone best to keep red valve closed. Otherwise right on.

What a great

"How-To" diagram, Mark. You rock! Kris- keep us all posted.

It could also be a circulator, with the smell and all. do you have one or two circulators on the system? What is your boiler pressure? There will be a gauge on the boiler. A picture of the boiler and near boiler piping will help. Let's figure this out and warm the kids up! Tim

We have one circulator that was replaced within the past few years. The smell is not always present, usually when using hot water a while, for instance after a few showers in a row. Also, the smell is not coming from the boiler...but maybe a pipe/pipes is our guess.

You need a good purge. Top loop sounds airbound. Do you know how to do this? Tim

No, could you explain?

Start be looking at the pressure you are currently at. If 12 or so, you are good. If 0, we would need to find out why. Find the place on the pipes that looks like a hose will attach to it. Put a hose on it and run it outside. (Not on the bottom of the boiler, but on the pipes. ) Is there a valve or lever between this and the boiler? If so, close it. (Do these things with a cold boiler) Fill the boiler to 28 psi or so, looking at the gauge. You should have a pressure reducing valve on the fill with a lever on it which will fill the system beyond what the valve is set for. As you fill, when the gauge says 28, open the hose drain valve. You will hear water and air fly out. when the pressure drops to 10 or so, close the hose bib and do this again. The idea is to force the water and air through the pipes. Set the system to 12 when done. If this does not do it, you may need a circulator. Tim

Pressure is about a 2....what do you make of that?

I'd say you need at least twelve

is there a valve off before or after the pressure reducing valve or is there a lift handle on top that you can lift to get it to twelve??

Mislabeled Relief Valve....

Mark, Where you labeled pressure relief valve...it isn't anything, but I think we found it...is it in the background of the purge valve?? If I was to need to use this, how do I do that? If I want to reduce the pressure, do you just lift until it's right?

Successfully Purged BUT.....

We purged each valve individually and with great succes...the upstairs has heat !!!! Now, I am concerned with the pressure though....It seems to be a little high and we're not sure how to reduce...we do not have a pressure reducer as thought labeled on the picture. Can anyone explain to us how to reduce the pressure and where it should safely be at...it's about 20 right now. THANKS!

You should have an automatic water feeder on the pipe that brings water to the boiler . It will ave a tag on it that says s1156 , or Watts 911 or a simillar thing this gives your boiler water . It sounds like it is not working . You need a half pound of pressure to raise water one foot . It sounds life you have enough pressure to get water to the first floor , but not the second . Please call a service tech before you crack your boiler over a simple fix ! Dave To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

no heat upstairs

We have a small Cape style house....downstairs has 2 bedrooms, kitchen, bath, family room and the upstairs has 2 bedrooms. We just realized that the upstairs is not getting any heat...we have forced hot water with baseboards heating. Only one thermostat and it is located in the family room. We have also had an increase of running water sounds through the baseboards and a smell of something in the cellar as the pipes get hot (not gas and carbon monoxide detector is fine)...are all these related to the same problem? Any ideas how to get the heat back into my kids rooms? Thanks!

Close the black handle and purge from the blue handle above it. The 'dome' looking thing with a valve on both sides is the pressure reducer. Both valves will need to be open, then you can lift that lever to get the pressure up to purge. I do see signs of leaks on the boiler as well as your air vent / expansion tank. Are any currently wet? Tim

signs of leak?

I just went down again and didn't see anything wet...which picture number are you looking at and where do you see leaks?

Kris

Close the black valve over the circ then close the red one on top then purge the one that goes to the second floor or both if you do not know which one it is, do them one at a time and open the fast fill on the pressure reducng valve keeping an eye on boiler pressure if it gets over 25 close the fast fill valve until it gets under twenty the faster you can purge under higher pressure the better it will purge. But oer thirty and the relief valve pops. I would purge from the blue ones on top.

Just to be sure...which is the fast fill valve? The boiler needs to be off correct? Is there any damage I could do if I bleed the wrong one? I could three valves not including the black one.

Question to all

please do not take this the wrong way but since this thread was started 11/25/06. Would the home owner not have been better served by a visit from a pro by now. Based on what I have read so far a one hour service call to go over the basics then recommend any further service. 1) Has anyone checked this boiler for proper draft. Heat is great but what about spillage. 2) Does the combuston chamber need cleaning is there signs of roll out. 3) Are the limits working. 4) Is there proper protective devises on the boiler. I can go on but I hope you understand, I have no problem with a quick question and answer but for this amount of time back and forth if I was in the cellar with the home owner their would have been a better evaluation within one hour. I always go over with my H.O.'s what I am looking for what I have found what I will do. Then go over with them what they should be looking for and what they should do. I also stress that having us over for an hour or two just before the heating season can reduce the risk of a simple service issue from becoming an emergency situation. Just my 2 .00. Mitch S. To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Homeowner

I understand your thinking...however we didn't attempt this for days...the weather was warm, we weren't using the heat and we wanted to make sure we had all the information to satisfy our own worries. I really appreciate everyone's time and effort on this. This woman might have taken a while to get the job done, but what a great feeling to have accomplished it finally!

If your name was Karl

you probaly would not have gotten any replies, with the kids getting cold was a nice touch. to all that "helped" might just make the headlines yet, I am surely with Mitch on this one!! Murph' To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

I agree with Mitch,,,,,,,,,,,

on this. Everyone has done a great-job trying to help Kris out, but there may be more things at play here! Suppose the wrong valve gets turned, even with the great diagram to go-by? We, as tradesmen, should realize our limitations using this, or any other "forum", and know when to call it quits. If the system still won`t work properly after all-this consultation on the matter, then it`s time for a Pro to visit the home, as we-all know where the "wrong" advice gets us.

pressure

I don't know if the loss is sudden. We have looked and looked and no spot of water leaking anywhere. The boiler did need water and the pressure immediately went up...then we purged...now we're keeping our fingers crossed