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Viessmann Nightmare! (98 Posts)
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Viessmann Superior Produts
I've had my fill of the superior products provided by Viessmann. First thing you need to understand after going to your indocrnation / advanced training, is that Viessmann never makes a mistake. Somehow they tolerate our American attempt to install hydonic systems which we are humbled and grateful. I've spent months dealing with tech support which takes the position that there is nothing wrong with their unit only with the installation. Only to find months later and countless trips, phone calls & an unhappy customer, that they now have a memo dealing with "MY" problem. Yes Viessman has great products but in my experience it's not worth the hassel.I'm with Ken.
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N/A
October 14, 2005
@ 7:20 PM
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Funny
Your the same guy that bashed the guy for donating to his fire and police department! Your a funny guy.
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October 14, 2005
@ 9:41 PM
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October 14, 2005
@ 9:42 PM
Oops. Double post:-(
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Gary,
deep, cleansing breath. Ommmmmmmmm. That's it. ;-)
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and in the immortal words of Mr. Jack Nicholson
Gooze-Fra-Bahhh...
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Gary Wallace Funny Guy
I took your advice and search your post. I guess I proved myself right, your a Funny guy?
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Nice!
There's the solution. Now let's all move on.
Thanks, Ed.
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October 15, 2005
@ 11:33 AM
It might be too early to ask
about performance , but how does the Viessmann you installed stack up against other boilers , like the Ultra ?
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So is
"Airhead" ...... that was definitely one of the better practical jokes I've been involved with.......
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Thank you very much for that tip. I'll check it out very soon.
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Sam,
I can deal with the marketing hype of the manufacturer, they all do that; but the level of defensive, robot-like, blind adoration and fawning behaviour of the "chosen" few who embrace the manufacturer's hype, is such an abject display of naievete and brainwashing, I find it more than just "odd."
It is rather sickening to be honest.
But then it's not about honesty at all,
is it.
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huh?
Let me get this straight . The installer didn't know what he was doing , the oil guys don't know what they are doing (no surprise) , somebody took the instructions , nobody downloaded them from the web and this is somehow the manufacuturers fault . So your going to rip it it out and put in a tekmar??? personally I find the Viessmann controls easier than Tekmar and I sell alot of Tekmar . You also said you may rip out the boiler ? Why ? it's just a hunk of Cast iron with a riello what can't they easily fix on that ?
Most important WHERE is the original installer he should be there showing the customer how to run it !!! if the owner and you have a right to curse someone than it should be the people who put it in . Think about it would you buy a car from a dealer without a service shop full of factory trained service guys ?
We sell Tekmar and Viessmann , we program the boiler as close as possable to the needs of the house , we leave the instructions , we teach the customers who want to know what to change themselves . We walked a senior citizen through how to change her room temp set point this morning OVER the PHONE . Why has the installer of that unit not walked the customer through it over the phone if he couldn't be there the other day ? Sorry but that is not a component problem .
I'm not great on my laptop but i recognize that's my problem not Dell's. it's like you bought a Lexsus from a Chevy dealer .
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First Install nightmare
We finally found a customer who wanted a Viessmann and only a Viessmann, even after we tried to convince him the Monitor MZ, Weil Ultra and Munchkin were all as good and less money and less restrictive in venting.
The client bought the Viessmann "superior german engineering" line hard - and entirely. If he's willing to shell out the bucks, we're willing to install the system, or so we thought. There's just one problem. The system he wants isn't available. It won't be shipped from Germany for three weeks. He wanted a Vitodens 200, WB2, 6-24. After looking at the venting restrictions, we found the factory would not support the only method available to vent the thing. In addition, he wanted a Vitocell V-300, 79 gallon. The warehouse inadvertently sent us a V-100 (which is not stainless). We installed it only to later find out it was not stainless. There are no Viessmann stainless indirects in the area. Perhaps a 120 gallon, but we have already waited for three weeks for a boiler and indirect which are late - or in the case of the indirect, non-existent.
After all the hyperbole I heard here I assumed someone would be making a call to the father-land.
Instead it's a case of "wait your turn" and we'll get to you when we get to you, sound. Of course, the wholesaler blames the manufacturer while the distributor chooses not to stock anything.
Next time someone says Viessmann, I'll wink and tell them to call someone else.
This will be my first and last Viessmann, thank you very much...
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C'mon Ken
you know that all "good" things come in time!
Jeez, now you'll probably back away from using your burnt/burning Mighty Passiac River Pex (the only pex known to man that is crosslinked with 3-eyed carp scales) in your retirement cabin!
C'mon Ken, if you ordered a Ping driver, and were told that it would take three weeks, you know that you would wait with a smile on your Mug!!!! :)~
Leo g
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N/A
October 14, 2005
@ 4:37 PM
I don't understand why this is such a huge deal.
In the last ten years, It has only been in the last couple that suppliers have actually been able to keep radiant tubing in stock through the fall. I remember, every year, delays on getting pipe, straight from the manufacturers. You think this sucks, try racing a slab deadline that's already months behind schedule.
it's fall. Rushes happen. Inventory is often behind. What's odd about this? Am I just jaded?
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Ken,my good man.....
....If ya procured this product from the "Folk's up on the hill" in Warren,In somewhat there defense thay just took on the line and there warehouse just went to "RF".It's not an excuse by no means,just alittle insight mabie.Sorry to hear of you delema,I have only herd positive things about the product.Hope all is well otherwise.
Ranger
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Interesting...
... did anyone think to download the operating instructions from the internet? Viessmann has them up there for a reason. The rep should also have access to the partner page for the service and install instructions. How hard is it to print these things and give them to the customer and/or to request new brochures from Warwick?
As we've said many times before, success with any kind of equipment comes down to the quality of the installer and the maintenance people. An installer that can fit pipes in accordance with the installation manual but has never been trained on the electronics (or even read the manual) is IMO not qualified to install or maintain the equipment.
Presumably, the "common boiler" will be a Slant-Fin, since you work there? :-)
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October 14, 2005
@ 12:12 AM
Come on now Ken,
Take this advise from someone with experiential knowledge on this forum WRT these kinds of posts. Don’t point the finger Ken. It catches up with and follows you. It writes your history.
Perhaps you should have checked the sticker on the box the water heater came in. It is clearly marked in big black on white bold text & numbers. I know you are unfamiliar with the products and it’s hard to tell the steel lined tank from the stainless unless you read the placard attached at eye level on the jacket;-)
The truth you see is only your perception of an inferior product, foreign government and economy. Have you found any warts on the materials that were delivered?
I just had a Verticell V-300 79 gallon tank delivered a couple weeks ago. My wholesaler picked it up in Warwick and delivered it to a job the very next day. In the back of the delivery truck I saw a 6-24 that was going to somewhere else. I won’t be hooking up this VIE30079 for another three weeks because I’m still waiting for my Ridgid Pro Press™ tool that “won’t be in for a minimum of three, probably five” weeks due to what I’m being told are “production problems at the factory.” That’s an American made product right? They have an awesome distribution system in place. Would you agree? Good things come to those that wait.
If you need a tank right now, I’ll let you have the one in the basement of one of my jobs in MA but you’ll have to have someone come and get it for you. You’ll pay what I paid. Call me if you’re interested.
BTW, Nicely written cute article. A real plumber would have changed out the flange;-)
Wallace Radiant Design
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Let me get this straight...
The customer decides to hire a contractor that has no familiarity whatsoever with the desired product. The contractor then uses a distributor that doesn't seem to handle much of the product. Therefore, the contractor somehow has the right to blame the manufacturer for this mess. Hrmmm?
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Viessmann rep?
We have a wholesaler who has treated us with the ultimate service, until we went german.
We have a rep who stocks nothing. We have service techs who can only read the factory line from the book and refuse to consider anything outside the box (that from Warwick) and we have the father-land. Arrogant, riddled with labor union horrors and an economy ready to crash and burn.
Where does the finger-pointing begin?
Where does it end?
Do I blame my customer for being gullible to a fault? Or do I blame Viessmann for failing to understand simple things like inventory control?
You can tell everyone you make the best boiler and matching indirects on the planet. But if you don't undestand the marketplace, simple inventory and stocking dynamics, who needs you?
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reps and wholesalers
Sounds like your customer needs help on preplaning, not your rep or wholesaler, neither stock Viessmann here either. we rely on advanced ordering and our stock. as far as Viessmanns "outside the box thinking" they stand 100% behind their product if installed per manufacturers instructions. maybe all others should do the same instead of winging it. marc
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October 13, 2005
@ 9:04 PM
Many other do
We never had a problem with Peerless , Burnham , Weil Mclain or Thermo Dynamics on warantee issues , as long as the boilers were piped to spec .
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Next time
"Ouside the box" referring to restrictive venting for which Viessmann cannot take responsibility? The problem lies with your distributor who is not stocking what he/she should. We have 12 on the shelf as I type this. Try being a manufacturer who tries continually to get distributors to stock anything. It was impossible to get most people to stock ThermoFin(a very few did). They just want to take their commission while the manufacturer takes responsibility for warehousing and shipping. Everyone wants everything "just in time".
Something tells me you went into this looking to be disappointed.
Have a good day, Ken.
-Andrew
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You have one
79 gallon stainless Viessmann indirect?
Ship it tomorrow please.
Want an address?
And blaming me and the wholesalers for Viessmann's shortcomings is hardly what any of us need to hear right now. I am sick over having taken anything guys like you write with any seriousness. The arrogance and condescension is deplorable. But I learned one helluva lesson. I should have gone fishing with the Viesmann rep before I bought the boiler.
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Stock
Ken, First off I was at viessamnn the other day (Warwick RI) to pick up a Vitodens. If you were looking for a 6-24 you need to ask your supplier why you had to wait, because they have about 100 to 120 of them in stock in the good old USA. I saw them on the racks just waitng for someone to give them a good home. As far as tanks go the v-300's go fast but I do belive I saw some of those too. If anybody is having trouble getting Viessmann parts it is not because Viessmann don't have them here. Walking around their warehouse is like walking around a candy store.
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If Ever
If ever they were going to mess up they sure picked the worst guy to do it to. That's what you get for deviating from your strong principles. Hope all goes well on the move .
Leo
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October 13, 2005
@ 8:28 PM
Well
that was just tongue and cheeck , not meant to be serious . I took it out of my post . So how you been ?
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Sounds like
A: You need to get a different supplier
B: Shipments should be checked when they arrive
C: Familiarity with the product is a little on the light side.
That's OK, learning new stuff always takes a little more effort.
D: You have a smart customer ;)
From your post, I take it that the Vito is installed? No? If it is, how did you wind up venting it?
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We vented it
using good ole Yankee ingenuity. The chimney is the intake air chase, and the S.S. liner is the discharge.
Familiarity of a product that takes three weeks to be flown in from Germany is hardly a matter of "familiarity." It is a mistaken trust in a manufacturer will be capable of delivering a product they want me to buy - and spend a great deal of time convincing me how wonderful it and they are as well as how "supportive" they are of their installers.
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I was reffering to
The venting issue not the availability.
Supply problems are everywhere. It's peak time of year for heating equipment, half of three states were just blown away and/or flooded. Most of the building materials in the US are headed south right now. I had to round up 6,000 sq ft of insulation to be used under a driveway/snow melt job. Lowe's didn't have it, neither did HD or Menard's. Wound up buying it from 4 different sources. What a pain. Not being able to get what you want is the pits.
But hey, Jaye says you were worth waiting for too.
So, how are you keeping exhaust gas from coming back down your "chase"?
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October 13, 2005
@ 8:21 PM
That is
the 2nd highest concern we have with equipment - availability .
Right below reliability .
We like to have the reassurance that if the boiler leaks or the burner or any fancy controls crap out , there's a ready supply 6 days a week , and within miles of the customer base . Great to see you online again Ken , where you been ?
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Happy to Help
So, did you or any of the installers on this job ever get around to getting trained by Viessmann on how to install and set up a Vitodens or did your team apply Good Ole' Yankee Ingenuity throughout this install?
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Vitodens
The unfortunate fact is that the homeowner is caught in the middle of Ken's prejudice and wanting the best boiler and hot water maker available. Don't forget the OB8 code or setting the clock, Ken. There's a pre-programmed DHW night setback. Did you use the low loss header or at least P/S? Hopefully that chimney liner will actually work as the vent. The Vitodens uses differential pressure to determine fuel mixture. Don't bad mouth Viessmann when the boiler locks out because of unauthorized venting techniques. There are reasons to follow the instructions and engineers' recommendations.
-Andrew
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79
We have a 79 gallon stainless tank, just not a Viessmann. Our primary choice for indirects is Crown Mega Stor so that's what we stock. If a customer wants a Viessmann tank, we order it well in advance. We do have a Viessmann stainless horizontal 92gal.
-Andrew
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What
did you learn?
3 weeks should be ample time. Your supplier obviously is not familiar with the Viessmann product line. It sounds like one of those deals where a supplier signs on to be a Viessmann distributor with no intention of properly representing the product line. They just want any sales that happen in that area. It's far from ideal.
If you were in our area, you would not have these problems.
-Andrew
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There must be two Viessmann companies.
The one I deal with has never been less than totally responsive to me and my dumbness. I've been with them for 11+ years and believe me, I have waited for product on more than one occasion. That's the way things work. I don't like it, I just deal with it. I'm honored to call most of the people up there my friends.
Ya know, if I thought about it for two seconds, I could bitch about most manufacturers in regards to "Where is my stuff?" or "What do you mean I won't be reimbursed?".
I bet every other industry goes through the same things we do.
heatboy
The Radiant Whisperer
"The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
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I too was at the factory...
I think you and I were in the same tour; the one where Rich Trethewey met us in the lobby?
That's when I realized it was all a sham. The place was deserted, half the space was rented to some other outfit, the employees smoked and hung out messing around when they would have been fired if caught doing that at GM or GE and we were supposed to be impressed? By what? Unionized loafers pretending to be industrious while hangin' out doing as little work as possible.
I was there. I was unimpressed. No wonder cameras were not allowed.
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Debate?
More like one guy's personal vendeta. Not a lot more to it than that.
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If Ken gave out some of these marathon "discussions" to his prospects he would have less troubles with customers. I see posts on how to sell up a customer to high end equipment, but not the reverse. My installer was trying to get me into Viessmann but it wasn't going to fit the particulars of my house. Shame on the customer for wanting the best and being willing to pay for it.
You could have told the customer that you do not install these, or that you weren't trained on the controls/install, and have never touched one before and that would have been it. It was unfair to take the money for this if you could not deliver. A classic uninformed decision.
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I see.
Still shooting the messenger?
Last time. There is nothing wrong with the install! There is no indirect S.S. 79-gallon EVI's in Viessmann's inventory.
Always nice to blame everyone else, especially the contractor for the manufacurer's stupidity. You can't make this stuff up.
And then the poster hides behind a fictitious name. I love it. So typical of the "VBSA" (Viessmann Brotherhood of Self-Adoration)
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There are
some of us who get it, Ken.
Comments from a few of the "pros" is surprising but as someone without a dog in this fight, it is actually amusing.
Has any of your friends here offered to ship you one yet?
Jack
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Gary,
That is very kind of you to fix Ken's problem by making your tank available to him. Like you, my contractor had no issues with getting stock from Viessmann, even when I asked for some of the more obscure accessories like a Switching Module-V or a flue gas temp sensor.
It's also too bad that Ken seems more intent on smearing the reputation of the manufacturer, the country of origin, and the installers that like the product rather than fixing the problem since he hasn't (publicly) taken you up on your offer in his reply above. Perhaps he just needed to vent.
Given that the VitoCells have their product numbers embossed on the front of the tank, I wonder how it could have been missed that it was a 100, not a 300, that was delivered. Besides, I would attribute the mistake in delivery to the supply house/rep, not the manufacturer. I have also included a picture of the top of a Vitocell 300 so Ken can recognize it in the future, with or without the benefits of a delivery box.
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See above...
Gary Wallace offered to ship his, Ken hasn't taken up his offer (at least publicly) but did reply to Gary's post with more anger about his experience with Viessmann, the people that work for the company, and those of us who like the product.
Draw your own conclusions.
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Hi Constantine,
Gary offered to let Ken have it if he would come and pick it up. A little different from shipping one to him.
There are no conclusions to be drawn, yet. Let the discussion (edited) continue.
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Constantin ...
... that was my suggestion. Some re-piping on the secondary loop, and adding second stage heat via tekmar 512s to a couple of zones. That's it. We did a heatloss and it's doable. BTW, we found a Vitotronic 100 in a box on the floor near the boiler. They sold him that too! Again, nothing wrong with the equipment itself. But the HO has completely lost faith. He has to live there, not us. Hey, maybe some smart guys with dumb boilers are better than dumb guys with smart boilers.
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You are right ...
... on both counts. Spot on about the quality of installer and maintenance people. As to your first paragraph, I couldn't have said it better (but why does the brochure make it sound so easy? Do you remember the first time you saw a 4-way valve?). I say the HO was B.S.ed by the rep and the installer. As homeowners, we are to blame if we pick the wrong installer. With my engineer hat on, I see a beautiful piece of equipment that was mis-applied, and wish I could get the HO to keep, with just a little re-piping downstream of the 4-way valve, and some supplemental heat in the rooms that need it (amazing what a heatloss calc will tell you!). As the Slant/Fin factory (not independent) sales rep, I see an opportunity to be successful by: returning phone calls, applying equipment based on installer capability and willingness to learn, showing up, and looking for potential in every Customer, including end users.
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And if you want to be a hero...
... then fixing the system with a qualified technician is what I would suggest to the homeowner. The marginal cost of getting someone in there to fix the extant issues is pretty low at this point vs. the high cost of scrapping a whole bunch of otherwise servicable equipment.
Said technician can also train the homeowner in the meaning of reset curves, offsets, and other things to play with on the Vitotronic 200. I went as far as taking the Vitotronic course at Viessmann and came away incredibly impressed with the many built-in features and the expandability that the Vitotronic system offers.
Besides, if you want a dumb boiler with a standard Tekmar control, you can accomodate that need with a less-intelligent Vitotronic (like the 100). You can install all-Tekmar boiler control, 4-way valve control, etc. yet the downstream piping will still need to be fixed, no matter what.
To reiterate, it is likely that the lowest cost option for the client is to have someone come in, set up the boiler right, fix the piping issues that have to be fixed no matter what, and leave the customer with a thorough understanding of what all the buttons mean, what they do, etc.
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I've been to Viessman
in Germany and stayed overnight at their School of Technology. Aside from that being one mighty impressive school, we then toured the factory and their state-of-the-art warehouse that's computerized with robot material procuring lifts. It's an amazine sight to witness first-hand.
It's unfortunate that you've had a rotten experience first time out of the gate. I'd be willing to bet Viessman will read your post and take it to heart - in spite of the tone - and use the info to upgrade their US presence. That's the mark of a great co & I believe they fall into that category.
While I don't personally use their product line (due to lack of product being stocked locally), I wouldn't have any concerns about installing one if a customer wanted theirs alone.
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Mmmm.
Sticker on the box? What box?
And no Gary, the Rigid Pro Press is not made in America. Unless Viega (who I assumed simply made and branded for Rigid) has moved their manufacturing over here.
Anybody come up with a 79 gallon, stainless Viessmann indirect, please let me know. This has nothing to do with my wholesaler, who is a major player, the distributor who is also a great rep, and everything to do with the manufacturer's failure to have any stock in an entire area of this country. Let's not blame anyone except the people who want us to use their products and the cadre of puppets they pander to - and whose praises are splashed all over this website as being the greatest company and boiler and related product makers of the world - and doesn't even know how to keep basic inventory.
The finger pointing is pointless. Unless of course you accept the notion that marketing without having products that can be delivered as acceptable?
What was I thinking?
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What I learned was...
Viessmann talks the talk but does not walk the walk.
Anyone who tries to sell something they don't have any of, in the country they are trying to market to, has no concept of how to run a business. Making a good product, no one can get, is dumb.
There's already enough dumb things going on we cannot control. Who we buy our products from and the way they function in the marketplace is their business. Who I choose to use however is my customers choice and mine.
It's all about choices. I made a bad choice. Now I'm paying. It was an interesting lesson. Very interesting.
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Classic Ken
He's always right, no matter what.
If you can't follow the instructions, or don't want to, it's their fault for not "thinking outside the box".
It MUST be German marketing at fault, it finally got him :)
You ever notice how controversy just follows some people ?
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Correct,
> He's always right, no matter what. If you can't
> follow the instructions, or don't want to, it's
> their fault for not "thinking outside the
> box".
>
> It MUST be German marketing at fault, it
> finally got him :)
>
> You ever notice how
> controversy just follows some people ?
Marketing a product you don't have would come under my notion of "controversial."
Mia culpa, yet again
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SO Ken
The boiler is installed ?
What did you think of the install ? Easy to hang on the supports ? What about the wiring package ? The quality of the heat exchanger ? The control package ? Did you set it up ?
Theres alot more to this story beside a indirect that your supplier could'nt supply.
I have to say Ken, alot of times we get supplys from the supply house and get back to the job to find that some of the fittings where not what we ordered. Guess who's fault it is for not checking ??
For someone who is a meticulous as you are, I am supprised that on your first experience with this " flawed " German product that you did'nt double check everything. I would have assumed that YOU would have been "Looking" for a mistake ?
If you look hard enough for something .. you'll find it.
Scott
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Ken,i cannot totally agree with you ,buh...
recently someone wanted a boiler and i set everything in motion to get them what they wanted...it drug on for weeks...finally i bought one from a buddy and installed it.now the hassel i have is that i dont buy into the proprietary deal they have set up,so i being a bit p.o;ed with the fact that i had offered them a better boiler at a great price basically hated every min of it. however i got whwt i got and paid for it. so in a way i have a definite understanding how you are hating what you "got"in the process... so in a way while not the best of all possible deals they have thier boiler. Heres where my post goes awyr ,the boiler i offered them was a Viessmann with a 300.
I am trying my best to Go With on this buh man it urinates me off to be given the opportunity to make some POS do what it can to make up for it not being a Viessmann .it makes me feel like a frog.
its 3 a.m. here.
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Here's Another One ...
... where the fingers can be pointed in a lot of directions: The HO did his online research and decided he had to have a Vitorond 200. Whole house was to be radiant, so he went for the Vitotronic, which he was assured would be easy to operate. Here's a direct quote from the Vitotronic brochure: "The display of the control is large, clearly legible and illuminated. But better yet - it uses plain language! Anyone can read and understand it, SAVING THE USER FROM SEARCHING THROUGH THE OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS." (SHOUTING IS MINE.) Fast forward to last Friday. The house has been through a full winter, the HO has two rooms with inadequate heat because apparently no one did a heat loss, the technician the oil company sent called the Vitotronic a "short wave radio" and started playing with the Vitotronic buttons, the Viessmann rep had been all over the HO to close the sale, but won't return phone calls because to this rep, the HO is history as soon as the order is booked ... so last Friday, the HO, a wholesaler (who didn't sell the Viessmann), a new P&H Contractor, and I are all in the basement staring at the short wave radio with the cocktail glasses and faucets on the buttons (No instruction manual in sight ... can't blame the Big V for that). OK, I understand the cocktail button is the "party" setting. I'll say it before you guys do ... I guess we are all below the expected intelligence level required to operate a Vitotronic without looking at the manual. My excuse is that I'm a PE, but the wholesaler and the contractor are knowledgable people. Guess what - he's worried that THROUGH NO FAULT OF THE EQUIPMENT, he will lose his heat at the worst possible time, and no one will be able to help him. Let's just say the job is up in the country. So, here's what the HO wants now, and IMHO, he's justified. Rip out the Vitorond, the Vitotronic, and the motorized 4-way valve and put them up on Ebay. Put in a "common" boiler, with whatever burner the oil company prefers (Beckett or Carlin) and a tekmar 356. The oil company can service the boiler, and I can fix the 356 over the phone and if not, I will do it personally, even though it's after the sale. What a concept. You know what, sometimes the competition makes YOUR job easier. Sorry for the rant, this may be my longest ever.
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Supply problems are everywhere?
That is NOT a fact of life, nor a sensible thing to allow, or tolerate.
These materials were all ordered four weeks ago. In the 35+ years I've been in this biz, I have never found an entire region of the U.S. without any brand SS indirect or boiler by Weil, HTP or MPI other than this one, Viessmann.
Maybe they are so wonderful they just sold out - as a result of some hyper-zealous demand?
In your dreams..
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Please refer to
Letter A: in my post above. I too, have had difficulty in getting Viessmann product occasionally. The problem has never been because of Viessmann. The local link is the weak link.
So how are you keeping the flue gas from coming back down the chase?
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This reminds me of..............
You know......... We all come here to learn, to look and observe, to test our thoughts against those of others, and just to see what's up and share a story or a laugh. Sometimes we all agree on a topic, sometimes not. Sometimes we laugh with and/or at each other. Sometimes we get on each others nerves and sometimes we share a moment or an event of great happiness......or great sorrow. One minute some of us are YELLING at one another and at other times we are all on the same page helping a good cause or a "brother" out with advice or monetary gifts. We all share the same goal of doing our jobs the best way we know how. Some of us are gifted in one area and some another. Some of us are gifted in many different areas and some are still discovering where their talents lie. From what I've seen, 100% of the time when there is a difference of opinon we agree to disagree and still remain friends.
There's a word that describes a group that functions in the above mentioned manner..........It's called a family. I am very pleased to be a small part of this one.
Thanks Dan
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I didn't have to wait 3 weeks for my Ping Driver.
It was two weeks from the Ping WRX shop.
Matches my custom fairway woods too.
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Great Observation!
There ARE two Viessmanns (like we all didn't already know that).
There's the MV (Manufacturer Viessmann) that designs, engineers, builds and markets boilers worldwide. That's the Viessmann we all know and love and most of us agree; they make one helluva boiler.
Then there's the ICV (Inner Circle Viessmann) That's the group that appears to be aloof, contractors only, who are part of the "inner circle" of devotees who turn around suggesting everything from America is inferior to Viessmann and that the sun rises and sets on everything Viessmann offers (whether stocked or not). Who suggest somehow the mantle of superiority is transferred to them and them alone because they are "partners" in the intentionally exclusive "club" of Viessmann installers and that somehow everyone else is an inferior sub-human cretin.
You, of all people Jeff, know the type.
The key and basic assumption we all come up with is that the ICV's are the negative factor, not the MV.
But our suspiscions logically lead us to conclude, since the MV does nothing to temper the ICV's condescending mannerisms, that they sit back allowing - even encouraging the ICV's to do what they do best, suggest not only the boiler, but all the contractors who install and use MV's products, as somehow "superior," and at the same time implying all of us who are NOT ICV's are "inferior."
That, my friend, is now and always has been THE problem.
So, there are two Viessmanns Jeff. Just ask Connie (;-o)
One last thing. What do you mean when you say, "I've been WITH them for the past 11+ years"? Does that mean your a card carrying ICV "member"?
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Nope, I never follow the herd, Ken.
I never said everything else is inferior to Viessmann. Not once. I have installed quite a few Crown boilers of late and really like them when they fit the project. I have friends down at Crown, also. The quality of the line they offer is unsurpassed when it comes to more basic stuff. When it comes to putting together a "system" and trying to do what I do, Viessmann offers what I am looking for. Don't particularly care why anyone else, or, if anyone else, sells them.
I have the utmost respect for you and the way you do business. I hope it goes both ways.
hb
ICV - Idiots for Conspicuous Value?
heatboy
The Radiant Whisperer
"The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
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Vitofrustration
Everyone I have seen use Viessmann products has done so because of features, not because of some loyalty to the "mutterland". Viessmann makes some of the best heating equipment available anywhere in the world. Those Vitocell 300 tanks are very nice. They also have a very nice price. I have to think a lot of the reason Viessmann equipment is so expensive has a lot to do with manufacturing the equipment overseas and shipping it here. Maybe one day Viessmann will establish a manufacturing presence in the US? Toyota and Honda have done it very successfully.
On a side note, I definitely prefer NPT to BSP threads. When is the rest of the world going to realize the metric system is far from perfect? I say that a little tongue in cheek; maybe it's my civil engineering training. If I was a mechanical engineer, I'd probably feel differently. But what would it take to manufacture some Vitodens NPT fittings for us so we dont have to use all those adapters? To be fair, the Viessmann low loss header is now NPT I believe. We haven't used one since the first two were such a pain and we decided to manufacture our own. It will all probably come in time.
In the meantime, why haven't the US companies, with their incredible advantage in the US market, crushed Viessmann's attempts to sell their product here? All it would take is well engineered, high quality equipment that met or exceeded Viessmann's. The complacency and apparent laziness amazes me.
-Andrew
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A tip of the hat to you then...
... for trying to do the right thing.
I wish more people would analyze the problem instead of jumping to conclusions/solutions. Many more steam systems would still work as designed instead of being hacked to death, for example.
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Dan Holohan
Dan,
< but the level of defensive, robot-like, blind adoration and fawning behaviour of the "chosen" few who embrace the manufacturer's>
Do you see something more sinister in this remark than just DISTRIBUTION! Extremely troubling!IMHO!
How can this man continue to indoctrinate his beliefs, so increasingly revealing, on this forum?
Jed
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He's just being Ken.
Same ol' Ken. Like Dave says, big and loveable in person, a bit dopey here from time to time, but he cares.
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A three hour tour....
Workers at GM or Ford being fired for taking a smoke break!?! That rich & a good laugh - thanks for the image(G). Yup, the same tour & Richard was there with his group. Always a pleasure to see & talk with him.
Man, I guess we see the world through a very different set of eyes, but then, yours are at a much higher elevation than mine! I probably was staring at the back someone elses head most of the time.
Then there was the luggage thief who swapped his bag for mine and I ended up having to wear the same clothes - underware included - for several days. I thought that was bad till Holohan & Boltz took me shopping & Holohan found the most insulting saleswoman who made some disparaging remarks when sizing me up. Then we had a "hostage" exchange at ISH where I finally was reunited with my duds. Like finding a lost child!
Lighten up my friend. If you like, I can read you the zen-like message Robert Bean had me read to the folks at Radfest East. Hell, I almost drifted off while I was reading it myself(G).
From my perspective:
Your customer wanted a specific product - come hell or high water - you agreed - they agreed - the product failed to appear on time - no fault of yours, it's simply late or unavailable - no harm, no foul - hey, they wanted this product, so, no blame for you! - you're ticked because you see this as a fell-down on Viessman's part & felt like venting here, which many of us have done in the past & that's ok, even though you were over the top (IMHO) - you're not exactly thrilled with several posters here, but then, each to his or her own, eh? - so what - neither am I or anyone else for that matter - I see that as necessary to keep the world from being bland and dull - change the channel or simply ignore their posts, which is my solution - most of all, I've come to know you and the fact that you're a great big gruff teddy bear who really does care about this industry and that you're not really the angry giant I'm seeing in this thread.
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N/A
October 14, 2005
@ 5:41 PM
Ken, The thing is: You’d be doing me a favor.
I need to increase the DHW storage capability of this home’s DHW situation anyway as they have recently added more body sprays and a 17.5 GPM shower that has fiber optic light that illuminates/pulsates a multi-colored light show in the whole bathroom to downloaded music on the internet via remote control. (I’ll post pictures soon) To add insult to injury, I’ve got a 250 Gal. Spa that may or may not be used frequently.
I’d like to remove the 79 gal. storage /heater and replace it with an additional 120 gal. Vitocell 300 for extended DHW demands. I’ve got no room in the garage to store this thing.
How can I interest you in this tank short of delivering the unit to you? I’m “just a mere small business owner” with no capability of delivering the EVI79 to you in Jersey. Fact. ;-)
I’m dead serious about this. You want to wait till mid-late October or can we work something out?
My Explorer crashes whenever threads get this long. Not sure why but. I need to revert to another browser to continue on this thread.
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N/A
October 14, 2005
@ 3:21 PM
Dan,
Thanks for the warning.
Guys, We don't want to get this thread pulled so let's keep it professional. Not personal.
Ken has a valid point. The tanks are not in Warwick. One of my suppliers was showing 2 in one of their branches but it was a "glitch." They won't be in till Mid.- October and that is not only a problem for Ken, It's a problem for anyone who needs onethis fall.
Like I told Ken, Come on down and get it. It's not convient but it's here in MA if he needs it bad enough. It's out of the box/crate and field preped allready:-)
Wallace Radiant Design
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Gary.
First of all let me thank you for being one of the few who would actually like to help, rather than blame me for a corporate blunder.
If my customer didn't already have a functional gas water heater hooked up while we complete the heating side of the Vito, I'd be up to your place with a pocketful of jingle and be forever indebted to you for your act of kindness. The kind of kindness one used to expect at The Wall, before the mindless cadre of euro-snobs came to town - who prefer to bash the messenger, rather than agree the euros have no clue and likely, never will.
I feel bad for the customer who beleived all the euro hype, and now will have to wait for the greatest boiler company in the world to figure out how to do something as simple as maintain "basic" inventory.
Gary, I thank you for your offer and am glad I will not need to run up this week-end to take you up on your kindness.
The mere fact that you offerred tells me what I already knew; you're a good guy and a great freind.
Thank you.
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Forget debate...
I'd actually like to see some pictures of the install. In particular the venting.
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N/A
October 14, 2005
@ 2:19 PM
So Ken, You want that heater or not?
Ken,
I know it’s not exactly close but it’s closer than “the Fatherland”
The RIDGID Pro Press is manufactured in Ohio. (who knows where the parts come from) Viega NA did not private lable the process for Viega. The tool is labled RIDGID. From what I understand Viega holds a contract with the Ridge Tool CO that gives them exclusive rights to the tool Ridge Tool CO. makes for them. I’ve been told that the patent for the pressing process and the jaws was bought by Viega from a German engineer. Viega is a German company. They chose to have we “Americans” make for them yet it’s not available on the shelf for us at this time. Seems strange but, I have some patience and still remember how to solder if I must(G)
“Ridge Tool Company is the world's leading manufacturer of professional quality pipe and tube working tools serving the plumbing, mechanical, construction, HVAC and facility maintenance industries. The RIDGID® trademark is recognized by professional tradesmen and engineers for uncompromising product quality, performance, durability and service.
Ridge Tool was founded, and remains headquartered in Elyria, Ohio, USA. This 650,000 square foot building houses global offices, engineering/innovation center, training center, factory service and manufacturing. In addition to the main headquarters, other Ridge Tool facilities in the USA include Urick Foundry in Erie, Pennsylvania, the North American Distribution Center (NADC) in Cambridge, Ohio and the RIDGID/Kollmann division in Orange, Virginia.
Additional international manufacturing facilities are in Cork, Ireland, Gevelsburg, Germany, Sissach Switzerland and Song Jiang, China. Major sales administration, marketing and distribution facilities are located in Leuven, Belgium, Tokyo, Japan, Melbourne, Australia, Sao Paulo, Brazil and Shanghai, China. Ridge Tool has knowledgeable, factory-direct salesmen in over 50 countries.
Ridge Tool is a subsidiary of Emerson of St. Louis, Missouri. Emerson is a global manufacturer with high-quality products, systems and services for commercial, industrial, and consumer markets. With headquarters in St. Louis, Emerson has more than 60 divisions selling products in more than 150 countries.
Ridge Tool is committed to continual product improvement and new product development. Investment in talented people and state-of-the-art equipment allows Ridge Tool to produce innovative, high quality products that make the lives of our customers easier.”
So Ken, You want that heater or not? I know it’s not exactly close but, It’s closer than “the fatherland”
Wallace Radiant Design
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You're correct Gary
The jaws are Ridge Tool's problem. An inside source tells me that the reason for the current back order situation on tools and jaws is this. Ridge was making the jaws themselves and ran into quality problems with the jaw assemblies. From what I understand, they have sub contracted the manufacturing of the jaws to a third party to try and attain the desired results. There is going to be a time lag of as much as a couple months while the sub contractor gets spooled up for production. Word is that the Viega folks are mightily PO'd about the whole deal. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the Viega/Ridge partnership in the next year or two.
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My 2 Cents
I agree, Constantin...there's more than meets the eye in this post. Venting of the Vitodens is particular to the product, like other condensing boilers. While it is possible to vent the boiler with approved SS venting, the sealed combustion is compromised, and is certainly not recommended. The high cost of the Vitodens venting co-pipe is a deterrent to some contractors. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. If the customer wants the product, despite the cost, the proper venting should be installed.
Ken, have you discussed your issues with Ed Nordstom, the VP of Sales in RI? He's a most reasonable man and is a problem solver. His number is 800-288-0667.
Any problems I've had with the Viessmann products have been handled to my satisfaction. I've installed several hundred units over the years. I've not found another company, other than Wirsbo, who strive for complete customer satisfaction.
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