Heating Help

As Long Beach says...

@ February 7, 2012 8:53 PM in Return line leak and automatic water feeder

Suck it up.  You've got a leak which has nothing to do with the Hartford Loop.  Either you pay somebody to fix that, or pay somebody for a new boiler.  End of story.

Then, if you haven't alienated your plumber, you might be able to get him to change the Hartford Loop.

Well now...

@ February 7, 2012 1:09 PM in Return line leak and automatic water feeder

The Hartford Loop was designed to prevent the boiler from being catastrophically drained by a leak.  So it is rather important that it be placed so that the boiler won't drain completely in that event; yours is.  Higher might be nicer, but -- it will still hold enough water that the boiler won't go into low orbit.

PROVIDED that somebody or something is keeping an eye on the water level.  A Hartford Loop was never intended to prevent a boiler from being boiled dry by someone who wasn't watching the water level. 

Back in the day it wasn't all that uncommon for a return to spring a bad leak; that doesn't happen as much any more (it still does, though, from time to time).  When it did, though, it was possible to drain a boiler fast enough to have it crack before you could pull the fire.  The Hartford Loop prevented that from happening, and was quite effective.  Gave the fireman time to pull the fire and generally set things in order.

Back in the day, though, the fireman watched the water level in the boiler; that was a key part of his job.  That way if there was a slower leak anywhere in the system, the water level dropped and he could go looking for it (if he was responsible; if he wasn't he just piled in more water) and fix it.

Nowadays, though, we have automatic safety devices, since reliable firemen are a little thin on the ground.  They are not a substitute, though, for the owner or operator of the boiler keeping an eye on either the water level (manual feed) or the automatic feeder's counter (automatic feed) to see if there is a leak somewhere.  Further, the Hartford Loop is still valuable, in my view, as a back up to the automatic contraptions in the unlikely event that they fail and you get a bad leak in the return.

Your automatic feeder counter (or your own actions) will tell you that you have a leak, if you do.  Your low water cut off will shut the burner off if that fails.  Your Hartford Loop will save you if you get a genuine break in the return, and the LWCO doesn't work as advertised.

Couple of comments here...

@ February 7, 2012 11:38 AM in Return line leak and automatic water feeder

first off, ideally the water feeder should feed into the return line, not directly into the boiler.  But that's minor.  Don't worry about it.

If you have a leak in the return line, the water is going to go out the leak.  Whether the Hartford loop is below the low water cutoff or not is more or less immaterial.  If it is, then the water feeder will feed water, which will go into the boiler, which will flow back through the Hartford loop and out the leak.  It it isn't, then when the boiler steams, the steam will go out, condense, and go through the return line and out the leak -- and the water feeder will have to feed more water.

Does it matter whether it gets to the leak directly or through condensing steam?  Not in my book; lost water is lost water.

Sounds to me as though your plumber is right; somewhere you do indeed have a leak.  Find it and fix it.

More replies...

@ February 7, 2012 10:02 AM in vapor system conversion problems

have to get insulation on as much of the supply piping as possible.
That will make a big difference...
Going to add up the EDR. Should I then multiply by 1.33 for the pick-up factor? I read somewhere that some old systems should use a higher multiplier, like 1.50, to calculate the pick-up factor. The boiler is rated for 240,000 Btus.
If you are looking at the EDR rating of the boiler, the pickup is already in there.  If you convert EDR to BTU, and compare that to the boiler BTU, you do need the pickup factor.  I personally don't think that the 1.5 factor is needed, unless the mains are huge or there is a lot of uninsulated pipe.  But that's my opinion.
 
There are no crossover traps from the supply to the return mains. The dry return mains ( two- 1-1/4 in., one for each side of the house) have a vent before dropping into one common wet return( I think it's 1-1/2 in.). I was planning on venting the two - 2 inch supply mains, only after doing the vent test on the existing dry return main vents. I was planning on adding vents on the returns, if needed, first. I am wondering now that you mention crossover traps, if that would be better for the supply mains.
Strongly suggests that the original system was venting through the radiators -- which isn't really the best thing now (it worked in the old days with coal, as the boiler built steam much more slowly).  It's probably going to be easiest to add main vents to the steam mains, at the ends -- that will get you more even heat quicker.

The manufacturer's near boiler piping calls for 2 1/2" out of the boiler to the header when using both outlets and 3" out of the boiler when using one outlet. I think, because they are minimums, I'll go with both outlets, the full 3" and tee them into a 3" header.
Sounds like a plan...
The vaporstat has to replace the pressuretrol and the low pressure gauge has to be installed. A supply house guy said that the town codes require you to leave the standard 0 - 30 psi gauge and you would have to install the other gauge elsewhere. Don't understand that one.???
The code requirement (and most insurance companies, too) is that there must be at least one pressure gauge on the system which goes to twice the pressure of the pressure relief valve.  This is protection in case the pressuretrols/vapourstat don't work, or somebody messed up the wiriing.  My own preference on these things is to keep the original gauge and pressuretrol, set at say 5 psi, and put a separate pigtail and T arrangement to mount the vapourstat and the low pressure gauge.  Then wire the pressuretrol and vapourstat in series.  But then I always was a belt and suspenders kind of guy.

Have to take a close look at all the pitch. I noticed the hartford loop has a larger than close nipple in it. Do you think that's an issue? I don't hear any hammer down there, but then again there's not much pressure yet.
It's nice if the Hartford loop is a close nipple, but so long as it isn't hammering and isn't too long (like feet) I'd leave it be.  If it ain't broke...

I honestly

@ February 6, 2012 7:19 PM in Drainage from a Steam trap - does it drain?

don't see how it can drain properly in that configuration.  Perhaps one of the wiser heads -- there are many on here -- can explain, but I can't.  I'd want to to see a drip connection...

Anyone?  Teaching opportunity here...

not off hand...

@ February 6, 2012 7:15 PM in btu per foot 1.25 inch pipe steam base board

and at this time of night I'm not going to do the arithmetic -- besides I'm missing a critical number.

However it's not all that hard: you can figure the effective EDR of the baseboard by determining the surface area.  Each fin, 3" by 3", has an effective surface area of 18 square inches, less the hole in the middle -- say 16 square inches, or 0.1 square feet.  Take that, and multiply it by the number of fins per foot of pipe and add the area of a foot of pipe -- about 0.3 square feet -- and there's the EDR per foot of baseboard.  I don't know how many fins per foot you have, though...

That trap arrangement

@ February 6, 2012 3:43 PM in Drainage from a Steam trap - does it drain?

is a crossover trap, or should be, and should have a drip to a wet return on the outlet, or on the steam main at the inlet.  The only way it could allow drainage would be if the steam pressure were high enough (which wouldn't be all that much actually) to push the water over.

Got kind of a nice jazzy beat...

@ February 6, 2012 3:39 PM in Identify This Annoying Sound

but you need some strings or horns in there...

More seriously, did it do this before the valve was in there?  It doesn't sound like a classic hammer, nor like a classic expansion noise, but if one knew it was related in some way to the valve... is the valve open all the way?

A few responses...

@ February 5, 2012 2:42 PM in vapor system conversion problems

I was wondering if you have seen a vapor system like this operate with just a return main vent at the end of each of the two dry return mains.
Yes.  In fact, many vapour systems have the vent(s) only at the boiler end of the dry return(s).  The steam mains vent via crossover traps into the dry returns.
I'm thinking the supply mains need a vent
not necessarily...
and the boiler header needs to increase to the outlet size on the boiler (3").
Probably.  You should check the manufacturer's near boiler piping diagrams -- remember that they are minimum.

Is it possible to vent a system like this too much?
Not really -- but it may not be worth the trouble and effort.  That said, if the pressure compensating device(s) or other fancier contraptions used on some vapour systems are still there and working, you need to use the same style of venting that was intended (well, not necessarily vacuum vents -- but at least the same locataions).

There was one rad that only got hot in the first two sections. It was in the hallway. Most of the other rads got hot mostly on top, but through almost all of the sections after about an hour.
That doesn't sound too far off.  As said in an earlier post, double check the EDR vs. the installed radiaton -- but remember that the radiators aren't meant to get all hot, except for long run times.

What about the idea of installing therm. rad. valves and traps? Most of the supply braches seem to be 1" or 3/4" and then reduced to 1/2" before it went through the floor.The supply and returns are on the same side of the rads. Would that effect the operation?
I would consider TRVs only -- ONLY -- if you have some rooms which are seriously too warm.  Otherwise, when they close the boiler winds up oversized by that amount, and that can cause problems.
As to traps, why on earth add a gadget which has moving parts and is sure to fail sometime, sooner or later, when the original system does the job just fine, thank you, by controlling the pressure and flow to the individual radiators with the valves or orifices which will last forever?  Don't add traps; you don't need them.

That's

@ February 5, 2012 2:29 PM in Conversion steam to forced air(??)

just plain tragic.

Is there any other control

@ February 5, 2012 2:25 PM in Steam overheating and banging

for boiler run time than the heat timer?

Some of what you are describing sounds suspiciously to me as though the boiler is running longer -- or possibly more often -- than necessary.  Specifically, the comment that the building was still overheating, but the system was quiet.  That makes me think that fundamentally the system is working well, but that it doesn't need to work as much.

Therefore... is there anywhere in the building that might be a suitable location for a plain old vanilla thermostat?

I might add that part of the problem with TRVs -- or just shutting off radiators -- is that they (obviously) reduce the size of the radiation being fed.  If just a few are off at a time -- say ten percent of the system -- on a system which is sized to have all of them on, then you are only ten percent oversized.  Not to bad.  If, however, you have two thirds of them off at a time, then your boiler is three times the size needed at that time.  This is not going to be good... even if you don't get annoying noises, your efficiency will suffer.

There are two flavours

@ February 3, 2012 7:14 PM in Where does the air come from??

of main vents for two pipe steam.  Almost all of the main vents recommended and installed are the sort which close against steam or water, and open to air.  These, if not overpressured (typically less than 3 psi) will reopen without trouble if they cool or if there is no water, allowing additional air out (if any!).  They should all open as the pressure drops, allowing air back into the system when the system pressure is slightly below atmospheric (fractions of an ounce).

There are a few vents which will not reopen but will hold a vacuum.  These were much more common back in the day and on vapour systems; if the systems were really tight they could maintain a vacuum of several psi.  However, it is uncommon to see these in use today.

Boiler size

@ February 3, 2012 4:02 PM in Help with sizing steam boiler

it is really rather important that the boiler be sized to the radiation it's feeding -- and nothing else.  Boilers are sized both by BTU, but also by the EDR of the system they're feeding -- and that EDR rating nicely includes things like pickup factor and so on.

The way I read your arithmetic, your existing boiler is considerably oversized; if someone suggests replacing it with the same the only people who will benefit are the fuel company and the guy selling you the boiler.  And oversize boiler is a real nuisance, and is inefficient on top of that.

The building being too hot is not, however, a matter of boiler size, but a matter of control -- particularly where the main thermostat is (assuming there is one) or how the heat timer is set up, if that's what's being used.  A pro. can address that too -- and the Wall will be happy to help too!

I'm not shy...

@ February 3, 2012 3:52 PM in Steam Heat Not Reaching certain areas in old building

I've gone through about 1100 gallons of oil at our museum this year; 7200 heated square feet on three floors.  Roof insulation, but no wall insulation; mixed post and beam and balloon timber framing.  That help your comparison?

That steam has to be going somewhere...

@ February 3, 2012 9:42 AM in vapor system conversion problems

as nbc says, though, the question is where?

But before we even get there -- how is the boiler size vs. the total installed EDR?  It will do you no harm to check that, to make sure that the boiler is big enough to handle the load.  If it isn't, you'll never get pressure -- and never get warm.

Second, are the steam mains all insulated?  If not, they should be, and it's not a tough job.

Third, as moneypitfeeder notes, it's time to put a low pressure gauge and a vapourstat on that system; the Hutchison -- and any other system depending on graduated valves or orifices -- works very poorly indeed on any pressure higher than say 12 ounces per square inch.  Not that you are there yet, but hopefully you will be.

Fourth, check your dry return.  Nowhere should it be any more than warm.  If it's hot somewhere, you could be getting steam into it through a bad valve or one which someone replaced or otherwise altered the setting on; that won't help.  While you are at it, check the pitch on it.  It must be pitched to drain everywhere.  If there is anywhere where a water pocket could form, that will cut off the flow of air in it, which will cut off steam to the radiators upstream of the pocket.

Are the steam mains connected to the dry returns, for instance by a crossover trap?  If not, vents on the steam mains are probably a good idea.

The swing check on the dry return where it connects doesn't belong; you can probably leave it, at least for the moment, but if the pressures are correct it is unneeded.

Don't even think about replacing the graduated radiator valves and union elbows.  If the valves are properly adjusted, the radiators will get hot almost all the way to the bottom, and all the way across, but ONLY after the boiler has been running for quite a while -- an hour or two.  The idea is that the valve lets in just as much steam as the radiator can condense and no more -- and if the system is adjusted properly, such an arrangement is absolutely goof proof.  The radiators aren't meant to get hot all the way on a normal cycle -- which, however, brings us back to the boiler running constantly.

Let's worry about the two modern radiators later...

If it really is running constantly -- 24/7 -- and the radiators aren't hot and pressure isn't building it is either seriously undersized -- or you are losing steam somewhere.

You do have to wonder

@ February 3, 2012 9:21 AM in straighting out a system ,what to do?

where some of the installers we see are coming from...

Bubble wrap is great for shipping that precious vase back to your mother in law.  And not much else; I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that was where a lot of the heat is going -- particularly if the soil (I presume?) below the slab is moist or wet.  But there are so many other issues here...

Good luck!

the make

@ February 2, 2012 7:57 PM in the mystery of the disappearing water

of the boiler isn't really relevant -- "Trane system" refers to the various devices on the radiators and piping, and the receiver and it's appurtenances as well.  Boiler could be anything.  The water in any two pipe system should just run back to the boiler, almost immediately -- it doesn't get stored anywhere.  Unless something is badly amiss.

But yes, it is quite possible that if the boiler pressure is too high, the water will back out of the boiler and "hide" in the returns -- or possibly even in the radiators, if the pressure is high enough.  Remember that for each psi of boiler pressure, the water level in the returns will rise 28 inches.

Still and all, 20 gallons is an awful lot of water...

If...

@ February 2, 2012 7:51 PM in Water Gauge Problem

the water goes down in the glass to half way (which should be above the LWCO level), and stays down, either you're losing that much water or something else is happening.

My inclination is something else, and the first something else I would look at is the connections from the boiler to the gauge glass and the LWCO.  Are they clean and open?  Does the LWCO share the connections with the gauge?

square

@ February 2, 2012 7:46 PM in test quest.

the area of a pipe cross section is proportional to the square of the actual inside diameter.  If we assume that the actual inside diameter of a 4 inch pipe is 4 inches -- it isn't, but it's not too far off -- and that of a 2 inch pipe is 2 inches, then the proportion is as 16 (the square of 4) is to 4 (the square of 2); therefore the 4 inch pipe has 4 times the area of the 2 inch.

To be more exact you would need to know the kind of pipe to which you are referring -- e.g. sched. 80 CI, Type K copper, ABS... etc. etc. and then look up the actual inside diameters for those nominal sizes.

Well...

@ February 2, 2012 7:41 PM in Quick question about Gorton #2s not making any noise

not in my experience.  In fact, it's hard to tell even that air is coming out, although if one can reach the vents one can sort of feel the air.  Sort of.  Of course the system I supervise is a little strange, in that it is a vapour/Hoffman system, and the only time the vents see steam is if the pressure gets too high and the differential loop trips... so I may not have a good view of things.

However, new vents shouldn't cause cold, unless they aren't venting at all.  And it would seem to me (I'm an optimist) that it would be unlikely for all four to be bad out of the box.  Can you feel along the steam mains (I presume these are at the ends of the mains?) to see how far the steam is -- or is not -- getting?

First off...

@ February 2, 2012 2:49 PM in the mystery of the disappearing water

check your pressuretrol or vapourstat.  If this is a Trane system, the boiler cutoff must not be above 1 psi and preferably somewhat lower.  Excess pressure will back water out of the boiler and into the returns, which could be part of your problem.

That said, 20 gallons of water extra is a lot; unless you have added that much very recently on purpose, for it to have accumulated over time is a little strange.  So you might check that your manual fill valve isn't leaking.  Also, if there is a domestic hot water coil, you should check that that isn't leaking, either.

No insulation on near boiler piping

@ February 2, 2012 2:43 PM in insulation

Seems to me that you see pictures with no insulation on the near boiler piping is so that one can see the piping in the pictures -- they should be insulated.  Right down to the boiler -- everything that will see steam.

If your system is working properly -- particularly two pipe -- you shouldn't have a problem with hot condensate, simply because it shouldn't be above 180 anyway when it leaves the radiators, if the traps are working properly!  The restriction on the condensate feed pump is correct though: if the condensate is too hot, it is very likely that cavitation will occur in the eye of the pump impeller.  At best this reduces the pump efficiency; at worst, it will destroy the pump.