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Jamie Hall

Jamie Hall

Joined on September 16, 2002

Last Post on July 20, 2014

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I've been heard to say

@ April 14, 2014 9:13 AM in Am I venting my mains too fast?

that you can't vent a main too fast...  although a #2 on a five foot main is, perhaps, overkill.  However, that by itself does not explain half an hour for a 50 foot branch.  5 to 10 minutes, max, would be more like it.  The venting you have should be adequate -- which leads me to wonder if there might be something else wrong with that branch.

Is it insulated?  Does it pitch properly and consistently for its full length?  Are there any restrictions (such as a valve, or a place where it gets smaller then larger) on it?

That's a lovely arrangement!

@ April 12, 2014 3:10 PM in What do you think of when somebody says Hydronics?

I can think of a number of big farms which could really benefit from that setup.  Have you contacted the ag. extension services in any of the bigger dairy states with the ideas?  It just might sell like hot cakes.

And dairy farmers deserve all the thanks they can get -- this place I run was a dairy farm, once, and I a dairy farmer on it.  Along about 40 years or so ago we added up all the costs and income, and realised what we sort of expected -- the price we could get for the milk didn't even quite pay for the local property tax (they not only tax the land and buildings, but the equipment and the herd as well).  Never mind anything for our work.  I still miss farming...

Size your boiler

@ April 11, 2014 6:33 PM in Help with Sizing a Boiler

based on the EDR rating of the boiler.  It is way too much hassle to run through all the conversions and pickup factors etc.  They are already included in the EDR rating -- and you have the information you need for that.

And no, you don't need to adjust the EDR for the uninsulated risers (although it would be nice to insulate them, but it isn't necessary).  You DO need to insulate your mains, however.

You need to match the boiler size to the EDR as closely as you can; slightly oversize is not as bad as slightly undersize.  Short cycling on pressure really isn't that inefficient -- and in any case will only happen if your boiler is significantly oversize (say 10 percent or more) and you can't down fire it, or your main venting is poor, or you are coming back out of a deep (say more than 5 degree F) setback.

Well then...

@ April 9, 2014 5:42 PM in Using condensate pump to shut off Maytag MGF1RC furnace

can't say I totally blame you about being concerned about the heat going out when you are not there -- although there are a number of other, much more likely reasons why it might do so than a condensate pump failure.  I would very very strongly recommend that if you are going to be away in the winter for a significant length of time that you either have a trusted individual who will (really will) check your house for such problems on a daily basis, and do something about the problem if there is one -- and figure out what to do when there is a power failure -- or that you drain the house plumbing and shut off the water when you go away.

If the condensate can freely drain -- for instance, onto the floor -- without backing up into the breaching or the combustion chamber, I suppose you could get away with it.  I would not be willing to bypass that particularly safety (or any other safety for that matter) and I'd be kind of surprised if you could find a contractor who would do it, either.

I might point out that the resulting puddle would be pretty strong acid, and would not be good for the concrete floor, to put it mildly...

No need to abandon

@ April 9, 2014 4:01 PM in Is my steam boiler way oversized?

the steam heat!

Removing sections is a bit of a hassle -- I wouldn't call it a do it yourself project, by any stretch.  However, it certainly isn't impossible.  A good steam contractor (look in Find a Contractor, by State for one near you -- or just tell us where you are and we may know someone) could do it, and at the same time tidy up the near boiler piping and, if you find you have access to natural gas, install a gas burner.  All at the same time...

I can't find

@ April 9, 2014 3:58 PM in Using condensate pump to shut off Maytag MGF1RC furnace

that particular furnace.  However... if it is rated at 92.1%, then it pretty well has to be a condensing furnace.  And if it is a condensing furnace, it will indeed produce a fair amount of condensate when it is running.  Comparable to the amount of fuel it burns, in fact.

You don't want that condensate to back up somewhere -- it has to drain to something, and if it can't drain by gravity, then you have to pump it somewhere.  Therefore, if the pump quits, you really do want the thing to shut down before it floods itself.

Welcome to the wonderful world of condensing furnaces and boilers.

What type of system is this?  Hot air?  Hydronic?  If it's hydronic, you can at least protect the heating system, albeit with some nuisance and complexity.

Cedric I had an overhead

@ April 7, 2014 7:58 PM in Benefits of 2-pipe vs single

line -- single -- about 30 feet.  It was an almighty pain to get primed when the oil company ran me out of oil (automatic delivery doesn't always mean they get there in time...).  When we put Cedric II in we trenched the oil line across the basement floor, as Charles has suggested, and it primes much more easily now!

Of course, as Charles may recall, trenching that line in wasn't quite as simple as it looked as though it was going to be...

It sounds

@ April 5, 2014 3:48 PM in old steam system replacement

as though for some reason you are not contemplating updating the steam system as one of your strategies.  May I ask why?

It is true that a really well installed system such as your have described (either option) can have a greater efficiency than a steam system -- by a rather small margin (a modern steam system will run around 86%; an equally modern hydronic can run around 94%.  But -- what is the payback?  You should run the numbers yourself -- but I expect you may find that over the lifetime of the equipment upgrading the steam system will be no more expensive than a whole new system.  In fact, it may well be less.

Unless you are sold on ripping out the steam for some philosophical reason, I recommend that you get some quotes from reliable and experienced contractors on each possible option, including expected energy usage and including all expenses (all energy plus equipment depreciation and maintenance, etc.) and then doing a very very careful cost benefit examination.  You may be surprised...

The heating

@ April 3, 2014 2:48 PM in steam novice

really will work better on about 2 psi.  Quicker, more even, and that's what things are built for.

But that doesn't mean that you can't distribute the steam at a higher pressure -- 8 psi is not unreasonable.  There are some good reasons for doing that, in fact.  What you will need, though, is reliable pressure reducing valves for each building.  On/off valves won't do it.  There are several manufacturers which make these valves, in an array of styles and sizes and ranges.  Sparco and Armstrong come to mind, but I'm sure there are others...

It is so rare

@ April 3, 2014 9:31 AM in Radiator cracking

for a cast iron radiator to crack that having more than one go -- in the same setting -- is really peculiar.

First question: is it really the casting that has cracked?  It isn't one of the nipples?

If it is one of the nipples, there are two thoughts which occur to me: first, if this is a really long radiator, are the tension bars drawn up tight enough, if it has them?  One doesn't want them too tight -- they can go sproing, which is annoying, but they must be tight enough to prevent movement between sections.  The other thought is a little odd -- is the floor this thing sits on sturdy and really a plane?  If the radiator is sitting more heavily on two diagonally opposite legs, it would put a twisting stress on the nipples, and one might quite easily decide to leak.

Or it could just be bad karma...

Water hammer

@ April 3, 2014 9:26 AM in Copper Joint that leaks in main pipe Solution please

can generate overpressures quite sufficient to actually break pipe -- never mind joints.  I quite agree that the best way to handle this one is to change that copper out and put in iron.

But you say you can't do anything about the water hammer.  Why not?  Water hammer isn't an inevitable part of any plumbing system -- whether it's residential or 60 inch municipal mains.  Don't give up on that -- you control the system, you should spend some time to figure out where the water hammer is coming from and fix it.

Quite true

@ April 1, 2014 9:21 PM in Thermal Expansion Tank

a pressure reducing valve or a backflow preventer or a check valve -- anything that prevents flow back from the system.

As Steamhead said

@ April 1, 2014 8:37 PM in Value of converting oil/steam to modcon gas?

but with a bit more.  You may, very likely depending on prices, save some money converting the existing boiler, if it is fairly recent, to gas.  If it is an older boiler, you will also save some money installing a new gas fired boiler.  What you will NOT do is save anything by taking all the steam out and going to hydronic or hydro-aire; in fact, it is unlikely that you would ever be able to save enough on the slightly higher efficiency of a mod-con to pay for the conversion, even if you are adding ducted air conditioning.

Just the way it is.

Good thinking...

@ April 1, 2014 5:48 PM in Thermal Expansion Tank

but not quite!  First, you don't need an expansion tank on domestic hot water because the system isn't closed -- that is, the hot water tank is connected to the water supply at all times, so if expansion does occur (and it does) the pressure doesn't increase.  In principle, a very small amount of water is forced back out of the hot water tank into the rest of the domestic water supply system.

You do need one on a hydronic heating system, though, because the system is closed -- even if it is connected to your water supply, as most are, the connection is through a pressure reducing valve and a backflow preventer, so when expansion occurs there is nowhere for the water to go, and the pressure rises instead.

I'm not sure what a consensus would be on backflow preventers on steam boilers.  Certainly on power boilers and many process boilers, you would need a backflow preventer (if they were left connected at all; power boilers usually aren't) as the pressure inside is high.  But for residential boilers, the pressure is very low -- never more than 2 psi -- so unless the domestic water line dropped essentially to a vacuum you couldn't get backflow anyway.  That said, some authorities do require a backflow preventer.  It varies.  It won't hurt anything, anyway, on the boiler.

If you do indeed have a backflow preventer on your main domestic water line, then yes you would need an expansion tank for the hot water. 


@ April 1, 2014 3:03 PM in Thermal Expansion Tank

steam heat certainly does not need a thermal expansion tank!  That's hydronic only.  Nor does it need a backflow preventer on the feed lines -- in general.  I can see some overzealous building inspector possibly requiring though, come to think of it.

What are you using the 50 gallon hot water tank for?

And just to add

@ March 31, 2014 5:18 PM in Dormant commercial water heating system

to Ice and heatpro's comments (both excellent, naturally!) you also want that chlorinated water to be in there for a while and circulate -- circulation is very important, as otherwise there is the possibility of some location having some nasty in it and depleting the chlorine without your being aware of it.

I would want an absolute minimum of 15 minutes contact time with a strong chlorine residual at the end of that time.  Half an hour to an hour would be much much better -- and the water should smell like a YMCA pool at the end of it.  Chlorine test strips and tablets are available for swimming pool maintenance, and are a cheap and easy quick guide.

You may find, even after you blow the system out and rinse it, that you need more chlorine that you might initially think.  Make sure that your chlorine residuals at both the beginning and end of the circulation procedure are at least 3 ppm.

Then drain and refill and circulate some more -- and have the water tested at some reliable lab. for every bug they can think of.

The only problem

@ March 30, 2014 4:03 PM in radiator paint

with any of the metallics -- copper, gold, silver -- is what is called "emissivity" -- that is, simplistically, amount of heat, in BTU per hour, which a surface at a given temperature will radiate.  We use a nominal figure of 240 BTU/hr at 215 F -- steam temperature -- but that assumes an emissivity around 95%.  Metallic paints will drop that figure to as little as 70% -- even lower, if they are clean and in good condition.  This effectively derates your radiation to that figure -- say 150 BTU/hr or so.

You can see this effect for yourself if you have an IR thermometer -- aim it at a regular painted surface and then at a metallic painted one which you know are at the same temperature; the metallic one will show a lower temperature, since an IR thermometer doesn't actually measure temperature, but rather energy radiation rate.

Now then, there are two problems evident with metallic paint.  First, your radiation may wind up undersized for your space.  Second, your boiler may now wind up quite significantly oversized for your radiation.

Or you may have both problems at once...

There have been a lot of threads on painting radiators; look around.

If it''s a crack

@ March 29, 2014 9:20 PM in steam section broke at the top.

there's a remote chance that something like JB Weld might work.  Then again, it's rather likely that it won't hold up to the heat.  If it's really a hole... enjoy the clouds of steam out the stack; they can be rather pretty.  And hope the new boiler comes soon...

Say what?

@ March 29, 2014 9:17 PM in Burnham boiler for Chicago 3-flat

You say you have no steam to the fitting where the top of the LWCO and the pressure gauge and pressuretrol are attached?  Is this with the boiler running?  If the boiler is running, you should get steam coming out of there like mad -- and be careful you don't get burned by it.  Live steam can cause really horrible burns in no time at all.

In fact, i wouldn't run a boiler with fittings above the water line open... ever!

However, if there is no communication between there and the boiler, you do indeed have a problem!  it's safer to do this all with the boiler firmly off, obviously.  Try, with the boiler off, to blow back through the connections into the boiler -- it should be perfectly free.  If it isn't, start poking and find out why; since that is also the connection to the top  of your LWCO, then the LWCO can't see the true water level if the connection isn't open, and that's just not safe.


@ March 29, 2014 7:06 PM in Help! Left water on filling boiler and now...

for the update, Wayne!

Well, let's see here...

@ March 29, 2014 7:06 PM in Help! I have no main vents! + problem radiator

First things first -- that insulation is better than nothing, but more -- 1" fibreglass -- would be much better.

Those main vent locations look OK.  I would definitely put a #2 on the longer main.  A #1 on the short main would probably be OK, but a #2 there wouldn't hurt anything.

On that big radiator -- it probably is a situation of the radiators before it on the line hogging the steam, but until you put main vents on there isn't much point in playing with the radiator vents, as you have already figured out.  Once the main vents are on, then you can start fiddling with the radiator vents.  What you are looking for at that point is the various radiators heating their respective spaces the way you want them, not necessarily that they get hot all the way across (unless you are coming up from a setback; that's another story).

I don't see any reason not to use that Honeywell thermostat, particularly if it is in a better location.  I'm not completely up on the wiring which would be involved, but it shouldn't be that much hassle.

I would imagine

@ March 29, 2014 11:18 AM in Black paper lining wall of radiator

that what you are seeing is "tar paper".  Exactly what kind of "tar paper", though, would be difficult to say -- over the years the stuff has been made in various ways, and, worse, the term is and was used to also apply to tar-saturated felt.

It might have mold, though.  Without looking at it, I'd not care to say.

It's not really a plumber's job to remove -- more like a carpenter, perhaps.  However, to get at it you may find that the radiators have to be moved -- and that is a plumber's job, and likely to be a bear at that.  If there is enough space around and behind the radiators, you might be able to get at it enough without removing the radiators...

Then, of course, there's the question of what are you going to find when you get rid of it!  Older houses are full of surprises.
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