Heating Help

Infrared thermometer

@ February 21, 2012 6:34 PM in Steam Traps 2 Pipe System Tempil Sticks

I use one, and I like to see at least 10 degrees difference.  I don't always... but there should be a consistent difference.  The problem is, of course, finding really comparable bits of metal to "shoot".

Not on a heating system

@ February 21, 2012 9:06 AM in Chemical

Chemical additives are neither recommended nor needed for a steam heating system.  This is not a consumptive use of steam, not is it high pressure -- the only two places where chemicals are needed.

To keep corrosion in line, it is merely necessary to find and correct your leaks, so you are not adding water to the system, except for required blowdown of low water cut offs etc.

Do correct that high pressure; keep in mind that even the Empire State Building in New York runs on about 2 psi.  Unless you have some specific devices which require the higher pressure -- which is unlikely -- all you are doing is destroying your traps and vents.

Either the pressure gauge or the pressuretrol

@ February 20, 2012 4:19 PM in pressuretrol setting question

is telling lies.  It would be a good idea to find out which.

As to the vapourstat question -- if you have conventional two pipe or have one pipe, a pressuretrol set as low as it will go -- as you have it (assuming yours is working properly) -- is just fine.  However, if you have any one of the vapour steam systems, it is not sensitive enough to properly control the maximum pressure, and you should use a vapourstat.

Back in the old days...

@ February 20, 2012 4:16 PM in thermostat

if you had a gas boiler with a self-generating pilot light system -- micropile, I think -- yes.  So long as the pilot was lit the little thermocouple thingy generated power which could go to the thermostat and to the gas valve.

Or... if you had coal... there were some lovely contraptions which maintained a beautiful even temperature with some bellows and chains and levers.  Worked well.

But.  Nowadays?  No, unless you have backup power.

Perhaps a stupid question, Gerry...

@ February 19, 2012 7:05 PM in Downfeeding steam radiators

but if there is a wet return and it really is wet, couldn't one just continue that riser right on down to the wet return?  Do you really need a trap there in this situation?

Yup...

@ February 19, 2012 7:03 PM in low pressure steam question

Long Beach Ed describes the situation exactly.  As an example, the museum/house whatever that I care for is a Hoffman equipped vapour system, with a Hoffman Differential Loop as many of those systems were.  The boiler is sized for the system, and very carefully installed and calibrated by Charles Garrity, who does a nice job and really cares about how a system operates.

It does have a vapourstat, set at 6 ounces cutout.  The only time the vapourstat shuts down the burner is on recovery from a setback, or on a day very very close to design (in this case, 0 Fahrenheit and wind).  There were two reasons for having it: first, the Differential Loop is rather sensitive, and will trigger at abut 10 to 12 ounces.  This does exactly what it is supposed to do -- equalize the pressure in the dry returns with the pressure in the mains, thus a) getting water back into the boiler and b) protecting the traps (I have one or two which are weak, but... otherwise they are 80 years old and going strong).  The down side, of course, is that with the pressure equalized, until enough condensation occurs to drop the pressure to where the main vent opens again, you aren't getting heat (doesn't take that long, but if the burner didn't shut off it takes longer and you're wasting fuel).  The second is that again, Hoffman equipped, and the real control on the radiators isn't the traps, it's the calibrated valves -- which don't work all that well at higher pressures.  So on the whole, on a system like mine it is worth it.

In many cases -- I have just said on another thread -- it's a nice to have, rather than a must have.

Sorry about this, but...

@ February 19, 2012 6:51 PM in Vaporstat vs pressuretrol

yours is one of the situations where a vapourstat would be genuinely beneficial.  Although you can make it work with a pressuretrol, at the higher pressures the control offered by the valves will be at best marginal.  If you can manage to keep the pressure down to less than 12 ounces, it's going to be happier -- and that means a vapourstat.

As a general thing...

@ February 19, 2012 2:50 PM in Vaporstat vs pressuretrol

The above comments are right on -- if your system is correctly sized and vented etc., a vapourstat is, in most cases, a bit of a luxury.  So is a low pressure gauge.

There are a couple of situations, however, where that isn't quite true... (there are always exceptions!).  They occur in certain types of vapour systems.  If the system is depending on orifices to control steam flow, rather than traps, you need to keep the pressure in the ounces range as a maximum.  Or, if the system has devices, such as Hoffman Differential Loops, which are sensitive to low pressue (a Differential Loop will typically trip at 12 ounces or so, and shut down steam flow to the radiators for a while) you again need to keep the maximum pressure to ounces.  And in those situations you do need a vapourstat; a pressuretrol just can't function reliably down there.

Boiler sizing

@ February 17, 2012 9:08 PM in Steam problems

I suspect the boiler is oversize.  Quite possibly way oversize.  That, at the moment, is the least of the worries...

I have been in touch with robijean personally, suggesting that the next thing to do is to see what can be done about getting the contractor who did the installaton to fix it.

Thanks NBC

@ February 17, 2012 6:51 PM in Steam problems

for the contact.  I'm hoping that between the Wall here and perhaps the distributor and a friend (contractor for hot water systems, not steam) we can get this straightened out, but it does look as though that contractor has some repiping to do -- to put it mildly.

Not sure about the other old boiler.  I'll ask.

Nice to know I'm not daft...

@ February 17, 2012 6:49 PM in Steam problems

I do have the manual for the boiler; it looks as though the installer followed -- after a fashion -- the directions for setting it up for hot water so far as the takeoff was concerned.  But as steam for the two pressuretrols.  I dare say there is some water being carried over into the steam piping... !

I did mention the 24" height on the risers in an e-mail to him, as well as a slight modification to the Smith diagram to make it into a drop header.

I feel very sorry for this man.  But we'll get him straightened out.

Snubbers

@ February 17, 2012 4:16 PM in Jumpy Need on Low Pressure Gauge

won't cure dirty water -- but even with clean water a sensitive gauge (or vapourstat!) may well be jumpy, but that doesn't mean there's something wrong.  It's the nature of the beast.  And snubbers will help that a lot -- particularly making the vapourstat more reliable at very low pressures.

I think the situation...

@ February 17, 2012 4:09 PM in Steam problems

is worse than some we have seen.  The contractor did a nice clean job of work, I'll say that.  All the evidence is that this is a one pipe steam system...

But...

Unless I am missing something, the contractor used the front, hot water heating, 3" connection for the steam main.

Here, I hope, are a couple of the pictures...

Please tell me I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing.

Charles and NBC

@ February 17, 2012 12:00 PM in Steam problems

Field trip time?  It's not that far from Yarmouth, and that is a lovely area.

Jean-Louis has sent me some pictures, and I am corresponding with him.  I'll be happy to forward them along to you -- and I may be seeking your advice!!!

As far as I can make out so far, though, it won't be too bad.  Provided, that is, that we can get the knucklehead who put the new boiler in to repipe it right.  It is not good, to put it mildly.  With any kind of luck, though, there is no permanent damage to the rest of the system.  I hope...

Can't say I blame her...

@ February 16, 2012 8:37 PM in Too hot

if the house is warm (or too warm!) replacing valves -- unless you know what you are doing -- is probably not recommended!

Besides, almost all your issues are a matter of venting, from the sound of it.  There are vents -- and then there are vents.  The vents which are available from Home Depot and the like are, I am sorry to say, not very good.  There are other brands which are much better; a lot of folks seem to like Gortons.

Venting comes in two stages: first, it is necessary to get the air out of the steam mains as fast as possible.  For this you need vents on the mains themselves, down in the basement.  You may or may not have them.  If you don't, you'll be much happier after you have figured out how to add them.  Once you get that done, then you can add good adjustable vents to the radiators, and adjust them so they heat the way you would like them to.  Takes a little fiddling, but it's not hard (usually!).

Your pressure is OK.

The leaking valves can sometimes be fixed simply by tightening up the bonnet slightly.  If that doesn't do it, they can often be fixed by replacing the packing on the valve stem.  Do NOT try to use "looks like" valves from a big box store.  Radiator valves are matched to the radiators, and are built somewhat differently.  Yes, they are more expensive -- but they work, and the "looks like" ones don't.

Turns out

@ February 16, 2012 7:22 PM in Steam problems

he is in south western Nova Scotia.  This may be one for remote control... !

Let's see what the Wall can do!

Oh boy...

@ February 16, 2012 2:18 PM in Steam problems

The pictures didn't come through for me... perhaps just as well.  I'm crying just from the verbal description.

First, Before you do ANYTHING else, turn the pressure down to no more than 2 psi.   That's where your radiator leaks are coming from, and I only hope that the damage isn't permanent.  Go down there and do this this evening, or as soon as ever you can get the plumber there if you can't do it yourself.

Second, when the replacement boiler was sized, did anyone bother to measure the actual heating load?  That is add up what is called the EDR of the radiators?  And size the boiler to that?  Doesn't sound like it... and I'll bet that boiler is oversize.

Third, that vent was needed.  It's toast now, but you will need to replace it.

Fourth, if the boiler maker called for 2 3" risers, they meant it.  A good bit of your hammering and wet steam problems may be coming from that.  But I would bet that if that is wrong, the rest of the near boiler piping is, too.  The near boiler piping directions in the boiler manual are absolute minimum directions.  Can you see if you can get pictures of the near boiler piping up to see?

Is the feed water pump new with the boiler?  Was there an old one?  Generally speaking, feed water pumps are not required -- in fact are most undesirable -- in applications like this one.  If it wasn't there before, you don't need it now.

I hate to say this, but from the description you have given here, it sounds to me as thoiugh your plumber, while he may be a good plumber, knows nothing about steam heat.  We will help you all we can, but you may have to find someone to come and actually work on the system who knows steam.  Where are you located?

It's confusing...

@ February 16, 2012 2:05 PM in water leg

The Hoffman 75 is non-vacuum, but what that means is that it will not hold a vacuum -- that is when the system pressure drops it will let air in to break the vacuum.  Which is exactly what you want.

No harm...

@ February 15, 2012 5:45 PM in If there is a 3" header should I pipe in 2 - 2" risers?

to a riser feeding a bigger header.  Not a bad idea at all.  But as NBC said, you want to check and see what Peerless requires for that boiler.  If they say one 2" is OK, it is, even though it is a minimum.

A waterline bouncing an inch or so is no big deal.

I love it when people strip the asbestos off their pipes.  Much much better and safer all around to encapsulate it and leave it.  But... you can't convince them.  You do need to get all of that re-insulated, and the sooner the better.

oops...

@ February 15, 2012 5:41 PM in Vexing Venting Issue

was the chemical cleanser flushed out?  Completely?  It has to be.  I'm with Terry -- it's skimming time -- but I'm going to bet you may need a couple of drains and refills to get rid of the cleanser.

Controls and pressure

@ February 15, 2012 5:38 PM in Oil fired Burnham KV83

The control for a hot water system are completely different from those for a steam system; there isn't much question here that since you mention a gauge glass (steam only) and a pressuretrol (steam only) you have steam.

The maximum operating pressure for a residential steam system should be 2 psi; that should be the cutout pressure for the pressuretrol.  Anything over that will make the system malfunction and may create failures.  If for some reason you feel you have to raise the pressure over that, there are other things wrong with the system which need to be fixed.

Hot water systems typically operate in the 10 to 20 psi range, depending on how tall the house is.  12 psi is a commonly cited figure.

to all of which...

@ February 15, 2012 5:33 PM in Vapor Steam System Short-Cycling

I would only add that "short cycling", if it is happening towards the end of a long heating cycle -- as Dave says, when everything is nice and warm -- is, as a general thing, normal, since there needs to be extra capacity in the boiler to get things up to speed but then there is more capacity than needed.

If it is worse than two thirds on and one third off, you could try down firing (if, as Dave says, everything is open now).

The real problem here is that, if it is at the end of a cycle, it is normal -- but you may have the dickens of a time convincing your customer of that.