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Kal Row

Kal Row

Joined on April 2, 2003

Last Post on August 11, 2013

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the boiler has to be in controll....

@ August 11, 2013 11:44 PM in Giannoni HX?

or u r just asking for a hi limit lockout - if ur pump doesn't provide the flow to match the boiler's current fire rate - u get a lockout, if the boiler is set to run of the "system" sensor but it's in the wrong place or getting the wrong flow - u get a lockout - dont second guess a smart boiler -

RULE TO REMEMBER
a sensor next to water thats not moving or not moving at the expected speed is lying
eg: a system sensor incorrectly placed on the boiler side of close T's, - the zone controller turns on system pump and calls for heat - but the boiler does nothing - since its sensor is still sitting in stationary hot water from prev run - and it "says" use the heat u already have, which u cant cause its hydro-Isolated by the close T's until the boiler puts on it's pump

the bumblebee is prob a bad fit for that job, if on the other hand u put it directly on a radiant manifold with zone valves it will do better than the grundfoss alpha - here's proof - on grundfos's new magna3's they provide an external return line temp sensor - just like the bumblebee - even though the grundfos autoAdapt does amazingly well most of the time

if u were using a bumblebee then the boiler is a small one and the expense of variable speed cant be justified - the return on investment is simply not there - use the recommended pump in the manual for the avg deltaT of your load - the failure rate of theses boilers is high enough - i cringe, cause i do both ends, the design and the service - and if i get to a boiler room with a non working bumblebee - trus u me, its getting replaced with a grundfoss ups26-99, stat!!!

i have told the taco people - the wilo people and the B&G people that they need a "26-99" killer - the dumbest thing is, that all B&G has to do is add a check to it's NRF-36 and they have it - wilo promised me they will - they already have the star21rfc - which comes in the box as a pump,a check, and 2 flanges that can be installed straight or rotated 90 - so they already have the grundfos ups15-58fc killer so i believe that will carry through on their 26-99 promise

attached is a snap of their board...

@ August 11, 2013 1:59 AM in Giannoni HX?

and where i hook up - see page 55 of the manual - and more in the service manual - they even have a min volts for pumps that need a minimum speed - if ur in the nyc area, then the boiler came from wallace-ennace - and u should ask for Jerry Katz out of the planfield LI office - who really knows the stuff and can help u with a total system solusion

new Lochinvar boilers come with 0-10v pump output...

@ August 10, 2013 9:31 PM in Giannoni HX?

which can drive any pump on a VFD or a ECM pump with such an input - example Wilo Stratos with the "ext-off" module - i have used this - i even went as far as switching the boiler pump and "system" sensor between the the radiant zones manifold and the radiator zones manifold with a relay so that the boiler knows what to do with either demand - cause the boiler has three heating demand inputs with different reset curves for each, but but only one "system" sensor input and one 0-10v boiler pump output - so i had to get fancy with relays.

2f rise every 70sec,,,

@ August 7, 2013 9:05 AM in Mikvah

that's with the reg pump, with the emergency/backup pump (55gpm@120ft) it does 3.5f rise in same time - scary - the only mikva on the planet with a secondary aquastat acting as a hi-limit control - cause this coil can cook the little pool in short order!!, i also have a design for a stainless one built with 1" tube only 4 rows deep - the layers are actually staggered up and down to maximize the infra-red visibility of the coil to the water,
the coil was made in copper but i was using 11250btu -per-sqft avg to my heating calculation which is a number recommend by the stainless steel quilted coil people - copper heat transfer is higher so the performance is a bit over the top to put it mildly ;)

am using controlbyweb.com x300 stats, attached is a screen capture of all 8 at once - these stats allow me to send simple xml cmds from any application to get and set the stat's mode and values

depends what your doing with it...

@ August 7, 2013 8:40 AM in Giannoni HX?

 the Giannoni is a really reliable and great "direct water heater", and has been handling chlorides in the water better than initially expected, but the pumping costs are just to high for hi-temp indirect or hi-temp space  heating applications - large Delta-T direct water heating or radiant pri/secondary is OK, (and don't even think about ECM pumps without a magnetic filter and water conditioner) - vertical firetube HXs are way way less expensive to pump through, but don't have the track record the Giannonies do, and dont forget the maintenance cost,  its supposed to be cleaned every year - i actually do 3-5yrs depending on the usage rate, and what kind of atmosphere  the boiler is breathing.
LAARS is rolling their own vertical firetube hoping to avoid the problems some have had with the polish one, and hoping  to cash in on the "made in the USA" factor, i know plenty people that would pay extra for that - Lochinvar has a different one for the CREST but that one is in a class all by itself. with nothing really to compare it to.
i wish someone also came up with a "USA" fan, am tired of the EBM PABST ones. they are too expensive and cant handle a drop of water, the worst thing with those blowers is not really their fault and would be a problem no matter who built it, that is, light construction derbies  gets into the fan when the place is under construction, but no one knows about it cause the fan still sounds the same, but it is actually  unbalanced and eating up its bearing, which will surely die after the warranty is up - those are the only failures I've had - water or junk in the blades - never had one just die
parts and repair cost is a big deal - and can quickly kill the fuel saving of a mod-con, i did a house with a three temp heating system - radiators, radiant in concrete, and radiant in an alumanized sub-floor with the parquet floor directly over the tubing with no intervening layer, and did it all from a cast iron boiler with a  standing pilot using a dual injection/mixing HBX CPU-1000 control - i gave the lady the choice with my usual saying which goes like this...
"a cast iron boiler with a standing pilot dumps one third its energy right up the chimney but will lose a thermocouple once in 30 yrs - add electronic ignition, and a good mid western style thunder storm, will  take it out in ten yrs, add a motorized draft hood and now your down to 7, add a draft fan and your down to 5, make it modulating condensing, and now your are married to it, a catholic marriage, you cant even get a divorce..."  she chose the cast iron with the standing pilot... duh!!!  
what sells modcons by us  is space mostly - people want a boiler room in a closet with no chimney - even the megamikva's boiler room had a space limit, every inch was counted - and talk about a pumping load... each 1.5mbh boiler has two modules and each needs a pump that can deliver 74gpm@35ft of head - using 3phase Wilo 1.5x70 water cooled pumps with Cerus PAS motor starters that senses/alarms over-current and under-current like  when an inlet filter gets clogged

differential temp with analog to vfd output

@ July 23, 2012 9:53 AM in differential temp with analog to vfd output

looking for alternative to Honeywell T577R for a differential temp application to control a VFD, maybe even a direct to analog inverse temperature  controller







this if for this application
http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/141922/need-somones-2-cents-or-more

vfd

@ July 19, 2012 10:08 AM in need somone's 2 cents, or more

just like they tell u design for the knee of the pump curve, its not just about the impeller, it's everything from the volute shape to the motor's power factor, on an ecm motor where the permanent magnet rotor is essentially free energy, u only have to worry about the stator and that is sensed and switched electronically like a vfd but the but the induced rotor on a regular motor has miserable electrical qualities once u go off design speed. The Wilow top-S/Z or the grundfoss equivalent, have a speed jumper which is only a 10-15% change.
me and moish wanted this boiler room not to have any steel, only aquatherm pipe and large pex to the loads, but the official Mechanical Eng and the builder were afraid of new pipe technology, so  we are stuck with steel, otherwise the whole show would have been all ecm pumps, at a vast lectrical saving to the client, for now only the space heating loads have a pair of wilo stratos and with a  stainer, and a fernox magnetic filter upstream and tons of conditioner in the system

ps worldwide has been selling a lot top-s/z pumps for 3yrs now and hasent gotten one back or doa - so this is what the custormer wanted a supper reliable pump - i dont want to be the fist one to kill it with a VFD

need inverse control..

@ July 19, 2012 9:02 AM in need somone's 2 cents, or more

need to sense the return line and open the bypass as it starts to get close to the supply temp, or come up in temp, did not see an inverse mechanical actuator by anybody, other than a 3way valve
when the pool is 40-50f the 170-180 supply temp returns at 100-120, when the pool gets to 98f the return line should be in the 140+ range
we do a lot of these and the avg imparted btus is 11,250btu per sq ft of copper with 4ft per sec internal flow
i even have a backup pump on the rail with valves to heat at crazy rate, it's a 2.5hp sta-rite pump with 50gpm @ a pipe eroding 120ft head!!!,
I'm leaning toward the VFD solution, since the pump is 3phase and i would need a motor starter anyway - and the motor starter has to be electronic as we want alarm output - been using the cerus starters http://www.cerusind.com/templates/group.asp?GroupGuid=406
their ems starters read the motor and will tell u if the motor's speed is out of range eg too slow on bad bearing or too fast on a clogged inlet strainer or air in system - i am using taco's iworx system's alarm modules to see all my temps and alarms on the internet
what i dont like about vfd's is that the pumps and motors a really in-efficient at the turn down rates its the dirty little secret of the VFD world, the control is there but the electrical saving is not

4way with motor and controls...

@ July 18, 2012 11:58 PM in need somone's 2 cents, or more

way more money than vfd or bypass

as for erosion  - it's well water  - not to hard and no chemicals

insuficient flow...

@ July 18, 2012 11:53 PM in need somone's 2 cents, or more

it would have to be much larger to get same flow, and it would hunt like crazy cause it can only messure on itself , whereas with a controller i can control the differntial, and historeasis - and place the sensor way back on the return line where its not affected by the mix

need somone's 2 cents, or more

@ July 18, 2012 4:58 PM in need somone's 2 cents, or more

building large spa like system - with copper immersion coils to heat the 9Wx14Lx4H pools, we built the coils with 3/4 copper in a serpentine fashion, 5 rows deep - which is nice for rapid heating - but i need a way to slow down the heating rate for temperature maintenance, could not use ecm pumps cause the commercial boiler room is piped with black and sced10 victaulic with lots of cast iron fitings making the environment unsuitable for ecm pumps, using Wilow 3phase 1.5x50 Top-S pumps, so i have two choices for rate control = put the pump on a Variable Frequency Drive with an associated differential temp control eg a Honeywell T775R control, see this link http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcustomer.honeywell.com%2Ftechlit%2Fpdf%2F63-0000s%2F63-7147.pdf&ei=cx0HUIOlBsj30gGP05GuCA&usg=AFQjCNGURRK88YdV2oQ3z-DPT1NmDkeIoQ&sig2=niYw-sL3L_KoTa6d1Smdcg 
 (note:wet rotor cirulators on a vfd even large ones like the wilo top-S or Z or the grundfols versaflow, are limited to 30% control, ie u can drop the frequency from 60hz to 40hz max)

OR

 just use a 3/4 zone valve on a bypass tube between the supply and return in the boiler room driven by a  johnson controls A419, driving the zone valve open when the return water from the coil goes above 150f, with a 10min anticycle delay and a 10f dierential
what would u do? - or has anyone a better idea?

love my Bacharach 24-8251 FYRITE INSIGHT

@ December 25, 2011 10:15 AM in combustion analysis

i bought it on ebay - be careful - this one was actually sold to me by jonstone supply - all the big houses do this now to increase sales - (if u cant fight them join em)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140532686984&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:1123



a quick search will show 1200 to be the going rate for the analyzer and printer (a must have) - i am very happy with the unit and - they have a good sensor replacement subscription program


the next big diagnostic thing i absolutely need to have is an infrared camera...now thats gona cost me...

love my Bacharach 24-8251 FYRITE INSIGHT

@ December 25, 2011 10:15 AM in combustion analysis

i bought it on ebay - be careful - this one was actually sold to me by jonstone supply - all the big houses do this now to increase sales - (if u cant fight them join em)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140532686984&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:1123



a quick search will show 1200 to be the going rate for the analyzer and printer (a must have) - i am very happy with the unit and - they have a good sensor replacement subscription program


the next big diagnostic thing i absolutely need to have is an infrared camera...now thats gona cost me...

it's not hard science...

@ December 1, 2011 1:05 PM in burnham alpine

needs to be checked every 12mon - cause it depends on the gas and the air ur sucking in - but when i do it - i also use a combustion analyzer to set up the boiler up perfectly, so i reset the reminder 2 24mo - found it to be a good rule - of course if ur running on LP gas or the intake is in a dirty location - u need to chk it more  often

economics rules...

@ September 4, 2011 11:31 AM in Navien as a commercial water heater

sure it a "water heater" not a "boiler" - but at the end of the day, there is a fire and a heat exchanger and real btus going from fire to water - so it's going to work - sure, u need more head through it, and it wont last as long, - but who cares, the tankless was meant to compete with gas fired directs - so it could never be more than twice as much money, no mater how much it saved, which is still half of any boiler, let alone a modcon - so people put it in, and use it wrong, and replace it - get over it!!! - it's the economics of "now" - by the GEN-Xers
i have 3 rinnais and a 40gall tank doing the hot water for a wedding hall, - in the same hall, i made a backup to the hot-water booster - that precedes every commercial dishwasher - which consisted of 1 rinnai and a 30gal tank - and a wilo star32 which is like a 009 - and after taking abt 20min to bring the tank to 175-180, - it delivers the 180F water at 1.2gpm to the dishwasher  - as needed, they typically take 1gal per dish rack of 180f water - rack after rack
they spray wash the floors with 140f water - i hate it and think it sucks - but they are very happy with the system, they like the fact that when they shut down - nothing is on - and the non stop water delivery
i would much rather do armor's and/or modcons driving tube-bundle generators in tanks - but look at the cost difference - 10 to 1, a real tough sell in these times

the new improved ones are way way better...

@ April 11, 2011 4:04 PM in Taco zone valves

 have a bunch installed



be careful when manually operating it  as it only turns 90 degrees and only one direction - and if you tork it with a screwdriver u will snap the thin plastic manual shaft - taco is working on a fix for this too cause every worker brakes the first one they get their hands on before they actually bother to read the sticker on the valve, we sent back 8 pieces because of this - taco has been a good sport about it
i like it that u can change the orientation of the motor as i like to see the status led, so if its mounted low, i wire from the top, and if its high, i wire from the bottom, so the led is eazy to see
i want taco to make 1.25 and 1.5 ones, as with the advent of VFD's as in the new taco 1900 series with built in VariableFreqenncyDrive or an ecm pump form Wilo or grunfos and soon taco themselves - u will see a lot more zoning of system sections, so there is a need for larger EBV's, grundfos figured it out and is already making them - caleffi has them planed -  the "loadmatch" system is nice  but not "green" - variable ecm pumps with zone valves are, - taco is scrambling now to bring ecm pumps to market - with the "bumblebee"now, and soon i;v been told they will have ecm versions of the 2400 series - the biggest problem with doing the larger ebv sizes is operating torque  - will probably need need two capacitor driven motors and more gear reduction to do - they are looking at it - i spoke to someone about it at ASHREE - im always on the "bleeding" edge pushing the envelope


 

i havent posted in a long time but here goes...

@ March 31, 2011 3:02 PM in Is there a Lochinvar Knight settings tutorial? Esp. to increase modulation.

use "ramp delay" which slows the ramp up timing of the boiler
u get a few steps and u can limit the max firing percentage
i usually keep it at 20% for 2 min  then ramp up 20 every min
also for a small load i set a deeper offset - so the boiler slows down when it gets to setpoint-offset and approaches the setpoint at a slower rate
these two together should keep u from short cycling - after that u need a buffer tank
a trip to Lochinvar university at the factory is well worth it - been there and am going again
i like the new display and  haven't had problems reading it and i like the knob input, perhaps because i am a pilot and we have that on our radios and navigators - so u can count clicks as u r turning so u can keep ur eyes on the attitude indicator when ur flying in instrument conditions - and can only afford to glance over to the radio or gps for a sec - that is, if u want to keep the aircraft upright, and not spiral out of control ;)

oops - double deleted

@ September 16, 2010 4:30 PM in Lochinvar fan speed lock out problems

had one with a pastic bag stuck in intake...

@ September 16, 2010 4:30 PM in Lochinvar fan speed lock out problems

all the way inside, also had construction foam pieces past the gas valve all the way inside the blower, - treat pvc vent on construction sites like drain pipes - tape them over until ready and make sure bird screens are in place on both - make sure sidewall vents are above the snow-line - the one with th plastic bag inside i was called to service, terminated 8" above driveway, like duh!!! - repair enough of these and u will see everything, 2 yrs ago while back we posted a picture of a wile-mclain ultra vented with with b-vent completely corroded over from the condensate - and pumped with a 007 - u cant make this stuff up!!!
however, boiler manufactures are going to have to wake up like car manufactures did in the 90s after the computer controlled emission nightmares of the 80s and put mass airflow sensors in-line - it's the only way to really know whats going on - instead of inferring it by pressure switches, fan-speeds, flame current and such ilk,  EBM-PABST sells such a system and one boiler manufacture is already using it - beside better diagnostics, such boilers would auto adjust for altitude, be able to provide 7-10 to 1 stable turn-downs - it's inevitable - only the cost is delaying it, there are a lot more car turnover than boilers so it happed faster there - today they would have to pass $500 on to the customers, ouch - but if all of them do it, it would quickly to drop to $150
anyway - was glad to point u in the right direction - never forget the basics, airflow, gas pressure and flow - seen plenty clogged GV screens, and water flow - just because pump is on doesn't mean the water is moving - assume nothing!!! had my share of pumps with disintegrated impellers

had this recently...

@ September 16, 2010 11:34 AM in Lochinvar fan speed lock out problems

first always check air flow in and out - and make sure the condensate drain is clear - had one where condensate water was partially blocking the airflow through the heat exchanger and the float switch in in the collector thats supposed to pick that up was jammed on some dirt



the one one i just had, really was the fan and it failed because the internal auto air vent on the heat exchanger was defective and leaking and the fan sucked in the rusty conductive water right over the circuit board at the bottom of the fan thats right next to it - Lochinvar will make good on that - what can i say, it happens even to the best of products - the fan is pricey because it has smarts built in

dead...but...

@ February 18, 2010 10:14 AM in Are things getting worse? OT

as you know i design for a few contractors besides moses fishman of enyq and i have only 1 of his jobs  waiting on a design now - last year this time, i was busier than the only gigalo on an all female cruise, - i am getting lots of high tech services calls though - as when it comes to repair, few contractors seem know what to do with a modern electronically fired/controlled boiler - and with the cold snap - the duty cycle loads just pile up - lowering the mean time between failures
- problem is my local supply house is a "bakery" - he orders "fresh every day"  - never has any parts in stock - people can be without heat and hot water for days - i tell people if go with a high-tech boiler - then they better make it two of them of they are going to be in trouble 
- lets face it - a cast iron boiler with a standing pilot - will loose a thermocouple in aprx 15yrs, add electronic ignition, and a mid-western style thunderstorm will take it out in 10, put in a motorized draft damper and your down to 7, add a combustion fan and your only good for 5, make it a mod-con and you are married to it - with no divorce possible!!!
not saying we shouldn't all use modcons - but the reality is, "green" costs "green" - and i think about Rush Limbaugh's request for 3 global warming proofs all the time, 
1) prove to me that it's really hapeneing
2) prove to me that we really did it, that it's not just part of a reg planetary cycle like the mini ice age of the 1300's or a part of  antartica NOT being under ice during the greek empire (it's on their nautical maps)
3 )prove to me that we can do something about it

there is fantasy and then there is reality...

@ February 2, 2010 5:35 PM in Rinnai tankless for domestic and radiant

attached is what i installed in at the wedding hall in the end - as the old way wasn't giving enough flow - this way we have two 3/4" in and out - i also got rid of the ez-connect cascade - don't need low flow mode as that is handled by the storage and when the storage gets cool or the flow ramps up i want all three - it was hunting a lot on the ez-connect cascade - the 140f is needed by the kitchen but to high for public use - so those sink groups have asse point of use 120f mixers
the system is live and preforming well even when the water off the street is 40f - this is really really inexpensive for a commercial setup
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