Heating Help

What about controls that support WWSD?

@ April 3, 2011 7:43 AM in Is it safe to shut off furnace during summer?

I believe that some of the more advanced residential boiler control systems support Warm Weather Shut Down(WWSD) modes that essentially shut the boiler down when the outdoor sensor reaches its WWSD set-point.

But one of the functions during the WWSD is that the control still regularly(daily?  I forget) excercises all valves and pumps, and may even fire the boiler briefly(I'd have to check on that, I don't recall 100%).

But the point being is that there are clearly controls designed for supporting boilers being "shut down" during the non-heating season which in warmer climates can be the far more significant part of the year.

I don't doubt that running the boilers constantly in some low temp steady-state is the ideal(as with any system) but I wonder if this may be cost prohibitive given fuel costs for those in warmer climates?

Al

Any thoughts?

@ April 12, 2010 2:58 PM in expansion tanks

Coincidentally with the start of this thread/question by the original poster, I'm just about to start ordering various parts, including my expansion tank.

So any clue on which size is right based on the discussion above?

Will that SX-30V really be right as generated by their online calculator?

Thanks,
Al

Yes, accurate specs.... for the most part

@ April 11, 2010 11:36 AM in expansion tanks

I chose 40F from their chart to simply test  for "worst case" for the acceptance volume.  The factor generated from that low temperature is only relevant in the acceptance volume calculation as they use in their worksheet formula.  This generated the ~11.8G acceptance volume figure.  If I had used something more realistic, say 70F as the min temp, it simply would have decreased the acceptance volume.  In this case, my problem with the differing figures from the online calculator and Extrol worksheet are for total tank capacity, not acceptance volume.

Similarly with the 190F max temperature, I can't recall if my max mix temp is 180 or 190, but 190 simply gave a little cushion to the acceptance volume calculation.  This doesn't impact the total volume figure, using their worksheet.  The ~11.8G acceptance volume seems relatively consistent in both the online and worksheet examples.

Regarding the 380G figure, yes I drained the system using a water meter and obtained 380G.  This is an old overhead gravity system.

What bothers me is that the online calculator delivers a spec for the SX-30V(so I'd probably opt for a 40V as some cushion), and the worksheet delivers the same results for acceptance volume, but the total volume specified by the worksheet would require their largest 160V.   Something isn't right.

Thanks,
Al

Me too....

@ April 10, 2010 7:08 PM in expansion tanks

I hope so as well, because the difference in price for a SX-30V or 40V is about $400 less than the 160V, and I'm about to embark upon that project.

Any thoughts based on the data I provided which model is more "correct"?

Al

Conflicting results....

@ April 9, 2010 9:23 PM in expansion tanks

My system specs:

Total volume:  380G
Max system temp:  190F
Boiler net:  172MBH
Type radiation:  cast iron radiators


If I use the online calculator at:  http://www.amtrol.com/sizing.htm

Plumbing & Heating -> Extrol

The recommended tank is the SX-30V (total volume of 14G, accept volume 11.3)

However, as noted earlier in this thread, if one uses the formula Extrol provides on page 8 of their Expansion Tank Brochure using the following values:

http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/extrolbrochure.pdf


1.  Total system volume:  380G
2. Min system temperature:  40F (chose worst case)
3. Max system temperature:  190F
4. Max system pressure:  27psi (minimum they provide data for)
5. Min system pressure:  20psi
6. Net expansion factor from their table:  .0313 (40Fmin/190Fmax)
7. Multiply line 1 x line 6:  11.894 calculated acceptance volume
8. Acceptance factor from their table:  .168 (20psimin/27psimax)
9.  Divide line 7 by line 8:  70.80G calculated total tank volume

One is then instructed to match these values on pages 6 & 7 to the correct tank using line 9 for "total volume" and line 7 for "acceptance gallons".

If I then use that data, the "acceptance gallons" value would likely allow any tank from an SX-30V through SX-60V (or larger).   But the "total volume" could only be satisfied by their largest SX-160V, which has an acceptance of 46G.

So, do I need an SX-30V(or maybe a 40), or the the giant 160V?  There's a significant price difference *laugh*

Al

Thanks

@ November 23, 2009 1:07 PM in Adjustment of burner flame on Dunkirk boiler, what is correct?

Thanks, it sounds like I need to find someone that can do the analysis, which is what I suspected.  I can do a lot, but this isn't an area of expertise for me.

Moving the shutters doesn't seem to affect the flame much in my case, so something else in the adjustment is probably amiss.  It's been running this way for 15+ years(I am the first I'm sure to do *any* maintenance on it), so it can only get better :)

Thanks,
Al

Adjustment of burner flame on Dunkirk boiler, what is correct?

@ November 22, 2009 3:19 PM in Adjustment of burner flame on Dunkirk boiler, what is correct?

I was finishing up my cleaning of my Dunkirk PWB-8d(Gas fired, atmospheric) and looking at the flame height/composition on the burners.

I was wondering what was ideal/recommended?  My flames were about 2 inches high, about 1/3 blue, about 2/3 yellow.  I did test moving the orifices a bit but that honestly didn't seem to make much of a change.

More curious than anything else what is the best practice or goal, much like in High School Chemistry class where we adjusted the bunsen burner to be a pure blue flame.

Thanks,
Al

Additional odd quote from the auction notes...

@ November 20, 2009 7:37 AM in ORNATE VICTORIAN RADIATORS

[quote]

It worked extremely well!

[/quote]


Someone should drop them an email and ask them to at least store the radiators somewhere for the next owners.   We only had one radiator removed and tossed out years ago by a previous owner, and I surely wish they had just put it in the basement as I want to replace it.  Now I have to shop around to find the right "fit" and probably will have to deal with some expensive shipping.

Al

Stainless OK as an alternative, double or single wall?

@ November 13, 2009 10:09 AM in Correct flue pipe material - galvanized or black, and why it matters?

BTW, would a stainless flue pipe replacement be a good alternative for low/no maintenance?

Also I see a lot of vendors are offering dual wall(insulated) versions of standard flue pipe which ostensibly increases flue draft, etc.   Anything to consider, and is this an appropriate option?

Thanks,
Al

Correct flue pipe material - galvanized or black, and why it matters?

@ November 13, 2009 9:54 AM in Correct flue pipe material - galvanized or black, and why it matters?

I had posted a photo of my boiler installation some time ago, and it showed the DIY circa 1991 install that used "black" stove pipe from the boiler to the chimney thimble.  At that time someone had commented that "black" stove pipe should have only been used for solid fuels and which suggested it was the wrong material for my gas fired boiler.

Well, doing some maintenance on the boiler recently, I noticed that the 15 year old flue pipe was getting pretty rusty in a few places and was likely to leak in a season or two, so thought it might be a good time to replace it.

With the former comment in mind, is it more appropriate to use galvanized, black, or "other" flue pipe on a gas fired boiler, or it is really a non-issue?

The following may be the right answer to my question though, which is from the Dunkirk PWB installation manual:

[quote]

Use a 28 gauge (minimum) galvanized pipe to
connect to the chimney.

[/quote]

So I guess I'll plan to run down some 7" galvanized flue pipe per the specs for the PWB8-D

But I was still curious why it "matters" what the flue material is made from.

Al

I suspect every trade professional has similar stories *laugh*

@ November 12, 2009 2:01 PM in Home owner's mentalities and the big box stores that sell to them

As a homeowner that both by necessity and due to my own personal interest often ends up doing a variety of work on my own, I can sympathize for both the DIY'er and the professional.

Sometimes folks are lazy, mislead, or just not very "handy"  *laugh*

But then again, folks like myself are probably the opposite and tend to over analyze and over build the project at hand for fear of not doing it right!

But it is true that the "generalists" (and I'm being kind) at the big box stores often do unintentionally mislead people from sheer ignorance.  Unfortunately in cases like the one you've illustrated, it could be a deadly mistake.

Al

Longevity of modern bladder tanks?

@ November 9, 2009 7:56 AM in Expansion Tanks,,,,

That's a question I've wondered:  What is the average lifespan of the latest generations of bladder based tanks?

Al

Thanks.

@ November 8, 2009 5:49 PM in Galvanized pipe, why not a good idea?

Yes, it is closed hot-water.

Thanks  :)

Al

Interested as well....

@ November 8, 2009 5:48 PM in Expansion Tanks,,,,

My old converted(to closed circ) gravity system currently has a 30G air-cushion tank suspended in the joists, but was never installed correctly, gets water logged, and is pretty rusty.

As part of my planed boiler repipe I was sizing a new diaphragm tank and based on the 380G capacity of my system, CI radiators, the B&G conversion chart sized out their(sourced with Amtrol, same size) 160V tank.  It's about $500 retail.

And I'm not even sure that original 30G tank was sufficient, but I bet even at a larger size it would be cheaper as I already have some airtrol fittings.

But I do like the ease of installation and "zero" maintenance of the newer diaphragm units.

So I too am curious to hear some thoughts on the pros/cons of the "old" air cushion tanks and "new" diaphragm units.

Al

Source for "ceramic" insulation for Dunkirk boiler?

@ November 8, 2009 5:43 PM in Source for "ceramic" insulation for Dunkirk boiler?

I have a PWB8-D Dunkirk boiler and during my cleaning I noticed that the "ceramic"(appears) felt gasket between the iron sections and sheet metal hood is severely deteriorated.  It appears to just be four individual inch wide by about 1/4" think strips of insulation laid atop the cast iron sections.

Is there a source for the manufacturers gasket or an appropriate aftermarket source for the material?

Thanks,
Al

Galvanized pipe, why not a good idea?

@ November 8, 2009 1:02 PM in Galvanized pipe, why not a good idea?

I've seen it mentioned a few times when someone spots galvanized pipe in a job that it ought to be replaced with regular black steel.  Why is this?

I have an example where the very top venting "antler" setup in my attic was constructed of 3/4 galvanized, and wonder if this is really a big deal to go replace with black steel?

Al

Only four matches within 250 miles for Raleigh, NC area, all out of state

@ November 4, 2009 9:41 AM in A suggestion for contractors

Just on a lark I went back and checked the "Find a Professional" tool for my zip(27330, Sanford, NC) and the only matches I found were for a professional in Washington, DC and another up in Virginia.

Doing a specific search for Raleigh turns up only four, the other two also up in Maryland.

Bottom line, none are listed local, or even in-state.

I am only 30 miles from Raleigh, NC, and I know there are several large mechanical firms that service hot water and steam commercially there.  And I suspect there actually are a handful of smaller pros still out there with expertise, but they are hard to find.   Houses still heated with steam and hot water are not.  

So there is definitely an opportunity in the "Triangle" area of NC for someone to make a killing :)

Al

Interesting, I wonder how much location matters....

@ November 4, 2009 9:15 AM in Indirect hot water - steam boiler

This is an interesting question I've wondered about at times as well, knowing that my 20 year old boiler will probably need replacing sometime from tomorrow to 10 years from now as it was so sorely mistreated for all of its life(no protection) that I'm sure its days are numbered.   And I've wondered if indirect DHW might be an option to consider when that day comes.

But I would think that location, and consequentially number of heating days, might play a part in making it economical or not.  In your case, I assume you are in Boston, I would think your climate would lean toward more economy than say mine in North Carolina where firing the entire boiler *just* to maintain DHW for 8 months of the year may not make sense??

Plus your feedback on high efficiency instant or even dedicated tank heaters is interesting.  So I'll be interested to hear what people think.

Al
 

Thanks for the tip

@ November 3, 2009 7:54 AM in Help identify brand and model radiator

I'll definitely take a look and see if I can find those marks.  Thanks for the advice about comparable replacements.

Al

Thanks from the other Al

@ November 2, 2009 12:57 PM in Help identify brand and model radiator

Heh, hi there Al :)

I'll give that a try!

Thanks again,
Al

Help identify brand and model radiator

@ November 2, 2009 11:37 AM in Help identify brand and model radiator

We have the following hot water radiators throughout our house.  I can't seem to find any brand or model anywhere on them, although it is possible they could be painted over.

Does anyone recognize these off hand?  I have one that was removed(the twin of the one in the photo below) that I'd like to reinstall at some time.  Unfortunately it was thrown away years ago, so I'm on the hunt for the right brand/model to replace it with.

Thanks,
Al

Thanks Randy, that's what we arrived at as well.

@ October 30, 2009 3:10 PM in Will differential of aquastat clash with Tekmar 362 differential function?

Thanks Randy, after some other discussions that is the conclusion we arrived at as well and will be sensing the supply side and just build in the buffer differential of 10-20F between the high limit on the 362 and aquastat, the aquastat being set higher.

Much appreciated!
Al