Heating Help

one other thing

@ April 17, 2011 11:51 AM in softened water in boilers

It was explained to me that a water softener also increases the conductivity of the water thereby increasing the likelihood of electrolysis and the "melting" of the anode rod. I have also seen new 1/4 turn shutoff valves that were installed on homes with water softeners melt the stems away and the handles fall off due to corrosion. My guess is as was explained before the parts are never able to form a protective coating and the anode has to work harder to protect the system.

I was taught years ago that when installing a water softener on a new home or after major repairs to wait approx 3-6 months  before softening the water as a precaution.

I am quickly beginning to favor using a whole house filtration system "mountain spring water" and using an electronic descaler to help with the minerals and scale problem. So far the homes I have inspected after using such devices are very favorable. The scale in an electric water heater is not the hard eggshell typically found but more of a mush and in significantly reduced quantities.

AS for use in a boiler due to the possibility of increased levels of corrosion I have always said no to softened water. If the water was too hard I would truck it in from a more favorable location if at all possible. But this new filtered water system and a descaler I think could be a nice compromise. I have personally seen the results on water heaters and have heard from people I trust that it has worked for them.

perhaps not

@ March 26, 2011 5:20 PM in electric vs. indirect

Just to throw in my two cents.

 The GE or the AO Smith heat pump water heater will extract the heat from the space its installed and has requirements on total cubic space and air exchange. If the room is not heated from some indirect source that room will get pretty cold and eventually reach a point that the heat pump can no longer extract the heat from the room. 

no insult intended

@ January 24, 2011 12:05 AM in Simple System, Impossible Problem.

You are right I know very little about you other than what I read once on your website. I have not frequented this site for some time and left the hydronics industry about a year ago and thought I would catch up a little and saw this post. I had no idea asking what pump you used, or if the DPBV had been checked would be considered insulting.

Based on the information you supplied I simply posted what I would look at first when troubleshooting a job I was unfamiliar with that presented the same concerns you stated in your post. It seemed to me like the thread was focusing in the wrong direction.

There are those who would say that a Grundfos 15-58FC in this application is no where near enough to be piped in this arrangement in medium or high speed. I have not seen your calculations, do not know the length or size of the tubing runs and am in no way in a position to question your methods. I am personally of the belief that in the areas that I have designed and troubleshooted for that a 26-99FC would be a better choice in this application but again I have not seen your calculations.  Again that is my own personal design criteria based on what I have seen in my own calculations.

It cant be fun when something you put your heart into and take much pride in doing does not work the way you intended and you do not understand why. I am glad you are getting things figured out. As  Mark E. I think the possibility of that many flow meters not working correctly at the same time is a stretch, unless they have proven to be inaccurate in the past. I personally never trusted or installed them. I always set up my systems by supply and return temperatures.

I wonder what the calculations look like when you remove the DPBV altogether in this application with a 15-58 in the system. You might find it to be beneficial as zones close....

I will go back to my lurking. By the way, you don't know my background either.......

unknown problem

@ January 22, 2011 7:58 AM in Simple System, Impossible Problem.

I do not see where you have a pump listed but I would suspect based on what I read that you need a bigger pump for the application. Are the manifolds opened up all the way? Is the PDBV working or set correctly, try closing the isolation valve forcing all flow through the loops? Have you ruled out any restrictions within the boiler coils?

Sprayed?

@ August 5, 2010 5:50 PM in Is closed cell foam a vapor barrier?

Spraying will eliminate the seams, and then it comes to to water permissibility. I hope I spelled that right. Anyhow, if you talk to the insulation contractor he should be able to provide the ratings on the foam being sprayed. If the insulator is telling you that it qualifies as a vapor barrier then he should have a rating to back it up. I personally would prefer to install the foam directly on top of the rock to fill in all those voids that will be between the foam and the rock. I never liked the idea of installing foam board over uneven base for that very same reason.

 I had an insulation contractor approach me once about spraying underslab however he could not provide me any details with compression strength so I had to pass. Other than that I really liked the idea and the price was right.

My vote

@ August 5, 2010 4:58 PM in defining a boiler short cycle

I like to see no more than 3-4 cycles per hour or no less than 15-20 min on any boiler regardless of manufacture or design.

I hear ya

@ August 3, 2010 10:04 AM in how is your bussiness doing

Definitely tough times, I had my own company for 8 years and decided a couple of years ago to close the doors and move on to bigger  and brighter things. Now currently unemployed after being underemployed I am starting to wish I had kept the doors open and paved my own future.

Contractors are doing the same here in Utah, we have the big mechanical contractors with overhead and then we have these little mom and pops that work out of their home and have no overhead quoting the same jobs, in addition to the guys who are used to doing small residential projects that are now trying to compete in the large scale homes or commercial projects that they have no experience quoting.

There are so many opportunities for contractors right now to expand their businesses. Unfortunately at the same time there is much, much less work to go around.

Service plumbing seems to be going great, all those cheap and poorly installed jobs during the housing boom are beginning to fail.


I am seriously considering going back to school to get an engineering degree.
In the meantime I am moving back to Arizona and if the job hunt does not work out will probably get back into contracting again and or service plumbing.

as a profesional, a couple of thoughts

@ August 3, 2010 9:34 AM in payback or roi

The homeowners expectation is that we know not only what we are doing but why. We are asked to be more than simply installers anymore, but system designers as well.

Have you ever gone to another contractors jobsite just to look around or been called to that job that never seems to work right, and left thinking; How did that guy ever get licensed and my favorite how the heck did that job pass an inspection!

Asking ROI or payback is really another way for the homeowner or end user to not only justify newer technology but separate a contractor who might be blowing smoke to sell the latest and greatest from a contractor who truly knows what he or she is doing and why.

I am sure the good contractors already are doing simple ROI and Payback calculations perhaps without knowing it. If ROI and Payback were not a concern then why not quote a MOD/CON boiler in every job. After all its the best right.

The truth is times are changing, the customer is more informed, their is no one product that works for every job. We have low and high temp systems, high and low pressure steam, 1 pipe or 2 pipe, dhw, staple up, thin slab, thick slabs, insulation or no insulation, what type of insulation, thin plates or thick plates, above the joist or below the joist, constant circulation or on off, condensing, near condensing, non-condensing, or steam, hydroheat, baseboard, radiators, cieling heat, wall heat or slab heat, zoning and controls, radiant cooling and I have not even listed a single manufacture yet.

In many cases a Payback or ROI calculation only needs to be done once or twice in an area. Once you know what your energy costs are its pretty simple to apply the rational to each project. If a customer wants to be specific on his or her own home or building rather than have generalities than include that as part of a design package and charge them for your services. As posted above Retscreen is a good package, you also might look into BLCC5 as well I think it has a lower learning curve. Retscreen is a very powerful tool, but it can be complicated.

A good contractor will size boilers based on a heat loss, why not chose the equipment based on ROI and Payback calculations as well.

If we do not provide this information who will?

In today's market it is time to separate the men from the boys and send these contractors and manufactures who give hydronic heating a bad name packing. In my opinion ROI and Payback is another way of doing that.

Am I the only one

@ August 2, 2010 2:20 PM in Recommendations on a good copper fin boiler - Mad Dog

that likes the PK.

The Modufire is 5-1 and does not need Tekmar with the ENVI control it does everything standard.

As for simple, take a look how the thermific and modufire are built. Talk about easy to work on. If you have not had the oportunity to open one up yet its a pretty cool design.

I can pull a burner for cleaning in a couple of minutes. Literally a couple of screws to pull the top off, a union for the gas line, 4 nuts that hold the burner down, spark wire, UV sensor or flame rod unhooked, and your done lift burner straight up and out.

well,

@ August 2, 2010 11:19 AM in Is closed cell foam a vapor barrier?

Closed Cell (extruded) insulation will absorb water to an extent and moisture can definitely pass through each seam unless sealed. So, in short it kind of acts as a vapor barrier but not  as good as a true vapor barrier. Note: Expanded insulation while less dense (lower psi compression strength) does offer a higher resistance to water retention and will maintain a higher R-Value long term.

I have heard of people using it as a vapor barrier, but have not seen an insulation manufacture state that as a use of the insulation.

With that if you are trying to protect hardwoods against known moisture underslab then I would not rely on the insulation to protect it.

Great Copper Fin Boilers

@ July 30, 2010 12:28 AM in Recommendations on a good copper fin boiler - Mad Dog

If you are looking for a Vertical Copper Fin I would put in a Harsco PK. Thermific or Modufire. The Thermific is on/off or Lo/hi/lo and the Modufire is 5-1 Turndown. Very easy to work on, and really if its installed right not much to go wrong on them. Its not uncommon to find buildings with these boilers that are 15+ years and still running great some with very poor maintenance practices even. It drives me crazy to see some of these service reports on boilers that have gone 4+ years without ever seeing a service on a commercial building.

The Modufire is 88% due to the 5-1 so it will require Category IV venting. The Thermific is 85% so it is Harsco/PK approved for B-Vent but I still prefer to vent it Category IV as well unless  precautions are taken to ensure that natural draft will help keep it dried out.

Also another thought

@ July 29, 2010 1:27 PM in Designing with different delta-T

When playing with higher delta T, Tubing layout is critical. When designing for a higher delta T I would always make sure walkways were hit first when possible and would tube in a alternating pattern if at all possible to help average the entire floor temperature as best as possible.

 A customer can notice a 20 degree difference and I have been to jobs where the customer noticed a 10 degree difference on tile. (They had arthritis and always walked around barefoot to boot). Carpet is much more forgiving and zoning helps when using single speed pumps because you can run a lower average delta T.

Using Uponor design software I have designed jobs utilizing delta T to balance the heat load and pressure drop a little tighter and then dialed in the Tru Flow manifold accordingly and been rather happy with the results. I would bring zones down as low as 10 and up to as high as 25 on the same project.

Change

@ July 29, 2010 10:15 AM in Daikin heat source

Seems like rather than adapt and expand into viable alternative resources and developing systems that enhance our way of life companies are more focused on protecting what they currently sell and doing what they have always done. I believe in keeping your roots  and what makes you unique, but that does not mean you have to sell the same products forever.

From an outsiders viewpoint.The current system of bureaucracy makes it very difficult and expensive for good ideas to ever have the chance to become a reality.

I would love to prototype and produce an invention of my own but lack of patent and copyright funds has me stuck at step one. I guess I could hope to some day become a contestant on Shark Tank or win the lottery I don't play.

tough at the moment

@ July 29, 2010 8:08 AM in Gas Powered Heat Pumps?

That is the number one question on my mind right now.

I have heard of a couple of companies but none that are in the small tonnage range. 8 tons and under really do not exist from what I have found.

If you find one let me know.

 I do know of a company prototyping a residential absorption chiller. Once they get the design down things could change quickly for the solar market in many areas. I am having a hard time waiting and want in on designing the thing to help get it done faster.

Absorption chillers are an amazing technology.

back in the day

@ July 29, 2010 12:34 AM in Daikin heat source

when I sold forced air hvac we typically did heat pumps with electric strip backup as well. Although we did a fair share of gas backups  for the colder areas in the mountains usually and programed a crossover point depending on the load calcs the size of the heat pump and whether it was a two stage, 2 compressor or single stage single compressor unit.

The goal was to keep the electric elements from turning on EVER. I guess if electric was .4 cents or some crazy low price and gas was 1.00 therm or 2.50 gal it would be different.

Usually it seems the customer is not given the option as to not complicate the sale or designers lack of knowing better. I had to learn less is more sometimes with clients. So I would try and go one size larger on the condenser and sell a two stage heat pump instead of the gas backup or even electric strip heat. You might be surprised how good the numbers can look even @ .9 cents with this approach. A/C would run on first stage, and heat would run first stage until design and then would bring in second stage. 3 stage would be electric strip if the numbers or customer asked for it but that was rare with this design. I would be surprised if Climatemaster could simulate that load but real world it is pretty nice. Saved a lot of customers some money and the ECM fan and 2 stage system offered a decent comfort level. Still not hydronics but better than usual scorched air. The best part, we separated ourselves from the competition and sold jobs at higher margins with happier customers.

The Multiaqua and Daikin units are AIR to WATER offering a different approach to heating and cooling a structure with some very nice features. like REAL zoning and radiant cooling systems. The EER and COP of the units can match those of geothermal and you do not have to run a loop field or well.

Essentially its like having a hydronic geothermal heat pump minus the ground loop. As discussed above the limitation is heating when the temps drop outside. They can only pull so much heat out of the air when you need it most.

It seems like at the moment every technology we have has a limitation holding it back.

Note: If anyone in the Phoenix, AZ area is hiring I would be interested.

Running Cost

@ July 28, 2010 4:43 PM in Daikin heat source

Are you comparing Air Source To Water or Air Source to Air Heat Pumps? Just out of curiosity.

What software are you using?

Of note, I would not design the system to use electric backup for heat with a .9 rate if natural gas was available. I think even LP at that rate still would win out.

Draining Test

@ July 28, 2010 9:19 AM in Draining Test

First year in business, trying to make a good impression so I am trying to get the job done quick. Had a water test on a two story house. I forgot to check to make sure I had drained the water from the waste pipes. I pulled the plug on the drain in the kitchen and was welcomed by two stories worth (Duplex Home with combined sewer) )of water as I tried frantically to try and put the cap back on to hold back the stream of water coming from the 1-1/2" pipe. Not only was the water wet but it had been in the pipes a little while. It seemed like forever to dry things out. Luckily I had my shop vac with me. Then I got back to work feeling and smelling great. Nothing like trimming a hot humid house with your whole upper body and side practically dripping wet..

aremec

@ July 27, 2010 12:59 PM in Daikin heat source

I have not heard of that company I will have to look into them.

 The air source heat pump market has been slow to take off for some reason, (Insert Conspiracy Theory of choice) yet I think the potential is there for many areas of the US. So much easier than running a ground loop system, and COP is very attractive for most of the season with decent outputs. York had a unit out for a little while but never really got behind it and I don't know if they even still produce it. They basically bought out another company and that was it.

I know Multiaqua has a digital scroll compressor that goes lower on the chilled side for ice storage, I don't know if they can use it on the heat pump side or what it would do to the cost. I have never priced it out. I usually design a system once we get down closer to design to switch over to gas or electric backup. Like you said the btu output at those low temps usually is not much, but with inverter technology I would think that could change.

I have preferred Multiaqua simply due to simplicity of design. There really is not much to fail on the unit. Just don't make a mistake ordering, they have a nasty restock fee.

NRT Rob You might try

@ July 26, 2010 9:42 AM in Daikin heat source

Looking at Multiaqua then, they use a simple Ranco setpoint control and the manufacture allows switching to a different setpoint control that enables 0-10v modulation of the setpoint.

NRT Rob 0-10V I would be in love

@ July 22, 2010 1:35 PM in Daikin heat source

Are you wishing that it had the ability to modulate output based on 0-10V input signal utilizing 2 stage or multiple compressors in one box.

Because that would be cool or um hot, Great.

Perhaps Multiaqua is listening, and will release something like that although they only have a 5 ton air source heat pump  and I have not heard if they plan on doing anything else. They seem to be more focused on cooling at the moment. But I have been wrong before.

For now buffer tanks seem to fill the void.

dual coil indirect

@ July 22, 2010 12:24 PM in dual coil indirect water heater

I like the Heat Flo line of tanks. They offer a dual coil as well as a dual coil with electric backup. The coil is smooth wall stainless so there is less accumulation of scale (no fins to load).

Well,

@ July 16, 2010 9:54 AM in Rechargable Batteries....Ni Cad

While it does work on some batteries its not a new idea or worth 10 bucks in my opinion but if you want I take donations.

All they are doing is hooking up the battery to a quick shot of high voltage and literally shocking the battery back to life and dissolving the crystals that have formed inside the battery allowing it to hold a charge again. If I remember right its about twice the operating voltage but I have done it for quick bursts of up to 4 times the voltage with success. 24 volt to house current with a diode in the circuit for example (I have also wired in a light bulb to reduce the voltage down to a more acceptable value), or for 12 and 18 volt to two or three car batteries in series for a few seconds.

If the crystals are the only thing holding it back sometimes it works. If its weak due to internal failures it will not. The higher the quality and newer batteries have the higher chances  of bringing some life back into the battery.

Of course there is the potential to explode or cause the battery to vent but hey the battery does work again right. Well for a few more months anyhow and results do vary wildly from battery to battery.

If you decide to do this take appropriate safety precautions and do not just hold the wires to the side of the battery with your hands!

I personally have not had a battery explode and have done this on more than 10 batteries but you never know.