Heating Help

Tubing leaks long after install

@ June 8, 2011 10:06 PM in Staple up radiant

Chris

I have come back to repair a hole in the tube that developed after a year or so.  Granted, it was no fault of the tubing.  A pair of distribution lines had been run up the stud, and a sheetrock nail had somewhat missed the stud and found the tubing instead.  The nail sealed the hole and the system ran leak-free for a long time.  Then the nail rusted out and sprang a leak.

Staple up radiant

@ June 5, 2011 1:07 PM in Staple up radiant

Thank you for the valuable posts to the thread by The_Zimmer_House about staple up radiant.

I am currently faced with convincing a friend that his plumber is wrong to bid his project using stapled up tubing.  I will inform him of the decreased efficiency (higher water temps required - not sensible with a mod/con boiler), striping (less comfort and potentially destructive to his hardwood floors), and noise (expanding and contracting pex 'slaps' the floor and squeaks in the staples).

Are there any issues with staple up radiant that I've omitted here?  Why would anyone recommend staple up radiant (besides being the 'cheap method')?  Am I unreasonable to suggest that staple up radiant is nothing more than a hack job (I apologize if I've offended anyone with this remark)?

What I'm feeling so far . . .

@ May 25, 2011 1:25 AM in Zone Load Synchronizing - Is it worth it?

I don't believe I need the synchronization.  I have an air to water heat pump with a variable speed compressor (modulating heat source) that has outdoor reset and DHW control already built into it.  I'm heating a high mass radiant slab and pumping with a Grundfos Alpha.

Am I right in believing that even my smallest zone will get a sufficient run time even on a mild day (thank you high mass and outdoor reset).  If that's the case, what's the point in using synchronization?

Zone Load Synchronizing - Is it worth it?

@ May 17, 2011 9:29 AM in Zone Load Synchronizing - Is it worth it?

I'm not sold on zone load synchronization.  If it costs a thousand dollars to install a control that synchronizes the loads in a house, how long until it pays for itself.

I'm considering this for a house with slab on grade radiant floors.  It's approximately 3000 square feet and 8 zones (I'm sorry I don't have the heat loss).  The outdoor design temperature is 10 degrees F.  And the heat source is an air to water heat pump.  The heat pump has a relatively low amp draw on startup.

The heat pump will control the temperature with outdoor reset, as there is no 0-10vdc input for third party controls.  So, zone load synchronization really is the only benefit I'm getting from the third party control.

Is zone load synchronization worth it?

Engineered wood floor?

@ December 6, 2010 7:12 PM in Engineered wood floor?

I am installing a radiant slab in a home that's getting an engineered wood floor.  Apparently it will be a 1/2" thick alder base with a 1/4" white oak skin on top.  I thought engineered wood floors were a type of plywood with 1/8" skins or thinner on top.  Anyhow, I believe it was mentioned that the floor installer will be glueing the boards to the floor.  This doesn't sound right to me.  Am I right to think that it's better to glue the tongues to the grooves and have the whole floor 'floating' on a thin pad of some sort?  I have also installed radiant slabs with a double layer of plywood on top and then the hardwood floor.

radiant slab under wood floor

@ December 6, 2010 7:06 PM in Recommended slab temp under wooden floor?

"However, a higher slab temp of course heats the room better and is (slightly?) more efficient."
That really depends on the design data.  If you pump too much heat into a slab (hotter water) then you'll experience overshoot and temperature swings, which is not efficient.  If you pump too little heat into a slab (cooler water) then your equipment will run all day long and not be able to keep up, which is not efficient.  If you have a condensing boiler then cooler water is more efficient.  Regardless of all that, if your installer is savvy, then he did a heat loss and flow analysis and determined the right temperature for the water to be set at.
As for your wood floor, I would never heat a slab under wood to a surface temperature of more than 85 degrees.  I would be more comfortable with 80 degrees.  And remember that the temperature of the water going out to your floor is going to be higher than your surface temperature, so don't be alarmed if your pipes in the mechanical room get over 100 degrees.

4 slab sensors

@ October 21, 2010 10:30 PM in 4 slab sensors

I am heating a warehouse.  There are 4 slab sensors.  I'd like to find a control that shows all four temps and then averages them too.  Am I asking too much?

Great work!

@ October 21, 2010 10:22 PM in Mechanical room photos?

I especially like the manifold in the center of it all...it's well placed.

optical illusion

@ October 21, 2010 10:19 PM in Mechanical room photos?

That is a ground wire disappearing behind the pvc pipe.  The thing on the pipe is a black zip tie holding a low voltage wire to the back of it.  That p-trap is where the pressure relief valves empty into.

Sketch

@ September 9, 2010 11:37 PM in Using the indirect loop as a high temp secondary loop

Sorry for the crudeness of my drawing.
The whole idea of this is to get the efficienct burn of low temp supply water and still be able to satisfy a high temp demand when it is needed.  I don't want to set the output to what the radiators need because then I won't get a really efficient burn when just the radiant floor is needed.
In my original post I talked about adding another set of closely spaced tees that I did not put in the drawing...they would have come from the indirect tank connections on the boiler.  The radiators would call for heat on the indirect tank aquastat connections on the boiler.
After talking with someone today, I now know that I don't need the extra piping.  I can trick the same boiler pump to come on whether it's space heating or indirect tank heating that is being called for.  Now I'll have a boiler that can output two different temps for space heating depending on what is needed at the moment.

Using the indirect loop as a high temp secondary loop

@ September 9, 2010 12:58 AM in Using the indirect loop as a high temp secondary loop

I'm installing a Triangle Tube Solo 110.  It's heating a radiant thin-slab and a dozen radiators.  There is no indirect tank.  I'm building a primary loop with four secondary loops.  One secondary loop is for the high temp radiators.  One secondary loop is an injection loop going to the radiant floor system loop.  Another secondary loop is the low temp input from the mod-con boiler.  I'm making the fourth secondary loop a high temp input from the indirect tank piping on the boiler.  That fourth loop will only come on when the radiators call for heat.  This way I still get ultra efficient output at lower temps when there is no need for radiator heat.  Is there going to be any problem with this?  I understand the boiler operates a little differently when it goes into a domestic hot water call for heat, but I don't see how that will hurt anything.

outdoor reset

@ July 5, 2010 11:00 PM in Funky indirect water heater...I'm scratchin my head

Yeah, it's on outdoor reset for the floor heat, but that's an injection loop.  The indirect loop is always high fire.

No dip tube

@ June 24, 2010 2:18 AM in Funky indirect water heater...I'm scratchin my head

The cold water enters at the bottom of the tank and exits at the top.  The well extends up from the bottom about 15 to 20 inches through the center of the spiral coil that also extends upward from the bottom.  Your absolutely right, I should do a sediment cleaning...it may even shed some much needed light on the situation.

False readings

@ June 24, 2010 12:24 AM in Funky indirect water heater...I'm scratchin my head

I can drain the tank and remove the well.  But I was thinking that scaling on the well would prevent the heat from reaching the sensor causing the boiler to keep pumping heat into it and causing an overheat situation... unless the scaling starts becoming hotter than the water for some reason.  Is there some reason that scaling on the sensor well would become hotter than the surrounding water?

Funky indirect water heater...I'm scratchin my head

@ June 23, 2010 9:34 PM in Funky indirect water heater...I'm scratchin my head

I need to know what's going on here.
I have an Amtrol Boilermate that's being heated by a Weil-McLain CGs Gold.  It's been there for Four years working just fine.  Customer calls up one day complains that the water out of her tap is "lukewarm".  I showed up and turned the dial up on the aquastat and everything hummed along just great.  Everything works the way it should.  Leave the dial a little higher than where I found it and explained everything works just fine.  Couple of weeks later ... lukewarm water.  I took an extra unused aquastat with me and replaced the old one.  Set the dial on 120 degrees and watched as everything cycled.  The aquastat's heat demand kicks out when the output at the top of the tank is at 115 degrees.  I cranked the aquastat all the way and it clicked off as the water temp at the top of the tank reached 120 degrees.  What can fool the aquastat into thinking the water is hotter than it really is?

What will the oxygen hurt?

@ April 23, 2010 4:14 PM in Aquapex in radiant system

I'm talking about using Aquapex in a system that has NO ferrous materials.  I'm talking about a system with all Aquapex, copper, brass, and stainless steel.  What in this system will be degraded by oxygen?

Aquapex in radiant system

@ April 22, 2010 9:50 PM in Aquapex in radiant system

Aquapex is cheaper than HePEX.  Even when you account for the more expensive components that can withstand oxygen in the system (stainless heat exchanger, stainless pumps, proper expansion tank, etc), it's a cheaper system that uses Aquapex instead of HePEX in most cases it seems.  The only concern I can think of is high points where the oxygen that gets in can collect and cause problems.  If one has good air elimination and a proper flow rate to get the entrained oxygen to it, it seems that would not even be a problem.  Am I missing something here?

Wish it wasn't hiding

@ March 7, 2010 5:38 PM in Mechanical room photos?

I built this in the shop on two sheets of plywood, drove it 3.5 hours, and installed it at the jobsite.  After spending time and energy to make it look attractive, it got stashed away in a closed up mechanical room.  It's probably the wethead in me, but if it was my house, I'd put it out in the garage where I could see it every day.

Mod-con boiler for a multi-temp system

@ July 8, 2009 5:53 PM in Mod-con used for a multi-temp system

I am going to install a mod-con boiler with a stainless steel heat exchanger, but haven't chosen one yet. There is an indirect tank which will need priority, one high temp zone with fin-tube baseboards, and 7 zones of radiant floor heat. I don't want to set the supply temperature high for the fin-tubes and lose the efficiencies of low-temp supply water. I don't think I can use the priority output for the indirect tank to heat my fin-tubes. Is there a stainless mod-con that can output high or low temp water to the house heating depending on what the system needs at the time?

Crown Bimini review

@ April 2, 2009 12:40 AM in Bimini review

I need to know if anyone has experience installing Crown Bimini boilers. Is the Bimini a reliable mod/con? We're considering the switch from Buderus GB based on price. A lot of times you get what you pay for... and sometimes you can find a bargain that's worth going for.

Which comes first . . . backflow or reducer

@ June 25, 2007 1:31 AM in Which comes first . . . backflow or reducer

I've seen the relief valve in a backflow preventer discharge maybe three times in my life. I chalked it up to crap getting into the second check valve and preventing a good seat. But lately I've been wondering if the pressure coming into the backflow preventer matters. Those times of discharge were also times of no water pressure in the house. I believe I read one time, that the pressure reducer belongs AFTER the backflow preventer. Now my supervisor says to put the pressure reducer BEFORE the backflow preventer (only because the Watts 009 says it's a "reduced pressure zone" backflow preventer). I think the Watts 009 is rated for 175psi water pressure. If a house has higher water pressure than this, there are bigger problems to deal with than a broken backflow preventer. So . . . are there logical explanations for which comes first . . . backflow or reducer?

pics

@ March 24, 2007 2:25 AM in link for top notch new install pics

I too would enjoy seeing the creative boiler work of others in the industry who are passionate about what they do. If your passion really goes beyond the creative side of boiler plumbing and into the realm of hydronic science, get your hands on John Siegenthaler's book, "Modern Hydronic Heating". It'll lighten your wallet, but it's been quite worth it for me. I've included some pics of my latest install. It's got a 60 tube solar collector, a 120 gallon dual exchanger tank, and a Buderus GB boiler.