Heating Help

Cooling

@ January 14, 2013 11:12 AM in Misc questions on radiant

I would not even consider the geothermal. You can put in mini-split heat pumps and operate at a cost very close to the geothermal for far less dough. This is absolutely worth a look. The best brands are Fujitsu, Mitsubishi. Where are you located?

Thanks Alan!

@ January 13, 2013 11:37 AM in Reading list

I've only been noodling around this site for I don't know how many years...;)

Your reply doesn't

@ January 13, 2013 11:35 AM in Rinnai R53i-1

mention the heat exchanger. Adding the drain and replacing the gas valve are the supplemental issues at this point. The real issue is the hx. If, and I am quite sure this is the case based upon what you describe, the fins are "healed up" with the evaporated condensate you are going to create hot spots that will create a leak in fairly short order.

I think the instructions are supplied with the valve, but if not make sure you call tech service to walk you thru the process.

Here is another thought. Pull the inducer motor and look up into the bottom of the burner tray. If water has gotten into that area, which is likely the air distribution holes in that area will be healed up. When you pull the burner tray clean those up as well.

Who installed this? Was it a homeowner job?

Reading list

@ January 12, 2013 11:47 AM in Reading list

I have had a few people recently ask me what books they should have for hydronic training and reference . Fact is, when I think of it I could use them too because every time I begin to think I'm a pretty smart guy, something, well, comes up;) . So...If you were to suggest a reading and reference library of say 5 books, what would they be?

If there is water in that tube

@ January 12, 2013 11:42 AM in Rinnai R53i-1

You are looking at a new gas valve, absolutely. That tube is connected to the bottom area of the burner chamber. It has a nipple that sticks up probably 1/4-3/8" from the bottom so water cannot easily get into this tube. There has to be a LOT of water for this to happen.

My suggestion, having done a lot of these, is that you lift the vent and inspect the head of the heat exchanger. Rinnai specs 5'vertical, max , without a condensate drain. You are at 14'. The condensate is flooding the vent trap and dripping onto the hx. On a call for hw it fires, boils off the water and leaves behind the crap you are going to see on the fins. That is a 3 row coil so if it is really crapped up, and you will know, it is also time for a hx. Additionally, your intermittent fire is due to the condensate dripping thru the hx and hitting the flame rod. That will interrupt the flame current and error 12, if you had the controller. Once the moisture clears the hx it then goes into the burners and further spreads its joy, which if you have water in the gas valve tube it has certainly done. If you end up repairing this unit, you will have to clean the affected burners. There are 16 identical burners in that tray. Once you clean the 3 or 4 affected burners take those low fire burners, which will be the affected burners and move them to the far left of the burner tray. Put the original three on the left in the low fire position. Having seen a lot of these improper installs over the years I can tell you that you will save time by disconnecting the unit from the wall and laying it on its back. This is a 5 min job...if they installed the isolation service valves and if the vent is properly supported.

This is straight out a fault of the improper install. That is a good unit, when properly installed. $2 worth of clear vinyl tubing would have prevented this, as well as an installer who bothered to read the install manual. Mad Dog, as usual, has a point. You have to inspect this and looking at parts and labor determine the best course of events. Let me know if I can help further.

In this circumstance

@ January 7, 2013 2:08 AM in Boilers for small apartments

I think you and the tenants would be quite pleased with the Rinnai Energysaver that KCop references. We have done more than a few tens of thousands of them in apt buildings all over the Northeast. They are a simple install and last a very long time. A good value in other words.

I represented Rinnai for 20 yrs in New England and still consult with them, so please note my bias, but, then again, I heat my home with them:)

Check them out at www.rinnai.us

Radiant may not be your best option

@ January 2, 2013 10:47 PM in Sun porch in winter

Simplest effective solution imho is a Rinnai ES 38. www.rinnai.us Check it out. Do try to tighten the envelope

Radiant may not be your best option

@ January 2, 2013 10:47 PM in Sun porch in winter

Simplest effective solution imho is a Rinnai ES 38. www.rinnai.us Check it out. Do try to tighten the envelope

Not to contribute to the problem...

@ January 2, 2013 10:42 PM in Fujitsu defrosting hourly

What temperature is it outside? My 12RLS goes into defrost a few times a day and may take 5-7 min to defrost. That comes in at around 32F. It then immediately comes back on and rocks heat output wise. Your refrigerant pressure may be low.

Dear Sir, Our Original Poster

@ January 2, 2013 10:35 PM in Point of no pressure change - help me understand

I am not even going to attempt to get into this. This is the Third Rail of Hydronics...regardless of what Dan says;) Having just come on this evening and seen the time of original post and number of responses from guys I look to for advise, you get the award for the, The Question of the Year. Had you asked on 12/31 you would have gotten the Question of 2012 too! Well done!

This is always the lead

@ December 31, 2012 11:20 AM in combi heat dhw gas

on combi's. You get a customer interested or they are interested initially and the conversation has to start with DHW production. You have to ask the homeowner how much hot water they need and you need to get ownership from them before proceeding with a combi. That my mean doing flow checks on fixtures. The other issue with a combi is water quality. A crapped up plate will not do you much good down the line. I like to see them installed with the same type service valves installed on tankless water heaters so they can be flushed.

Ran into a fellow

@ December 24, 2012 7:21 PM in Amish Heater - Electric Fireplace

Who had just put in about a 3kw PV system at his home. Net metered. As he had that he figured he would use these really efficient Amish htrs...4 of them to heat his 1200 sq ft home. There was some disagreement as to how much the utility had to pay him for his PV power. The disagreement lasted a few months and when they finally figured it out they sent him a bill for $6,800 net. Freaked him out! Tell him to save his money, just get two metal drop lights with 100 bulbs. Put a computer fan behind it and string a piece of the red paper in front of the bulbs. Voila, efficient heat!

I kinda look at these things as the great lie!

Reminds me do my 2nd yr apprenticeship

@ December 16, 2012 1:17 PM in Furnace repairs DIY

In Upstate NY in 72 there was an enormous flood and we were trying to get people into HUD trailers. At that point I had no problems running black gas pipe, but this coincided with about the first electronic ignition systems from Honeywell, which were in all the furnaces, and I had not a clue...but had to get the heat on in these trailers. I had one that hung up and would not ignite. I'd try it and then wait as prescribed and try again. This went on for a while and finally I got a spark. Well, at that time I had this enormous beard/mustache. When the fireball came out of the face of that furnace I was backing up at light speed. The furnace was in the hall way and my back hit the side of the trailer. I actually put a belly in the outside of the trailer. I had a sunburn and my beard, mustache, eyebrow and lashes were Rice Crispies.

What I learned that day was to not screw around with this stuff...and always look at what is behind you when working? One again boys, life is a humbling experience!

Spring check valve

@ December 13, 2012 10:08 PM in Circulation pump vibration noise?

Check to see if you have a spring check in the system. Under some circumstances the seat will "flutter". Water being non- compressible the system will speak to you. I've been called out on a few systems where I found this to be the problem. I've seen a Bonomi spring check fix the problem, if that is your problem.

As it is a SS liner

@ December 11, 2012 7:11 PM in Does a Stainless Steel Chimney liner need annual cleaning?

The manuf is probably expecting it to be used on a solid fuel appliance and as such, the cleaning requirement would be correct. I would expect otherwise on a gas fired appliance. I'd check with them directly and please post their reply.

Intake roar

@ December 10, 2012 10:31 AM in fluctuating draft with power vent + power gas

Not sure if this will be an issue on your system but years ago I was in a lab where a Carlin power burner was running. The overall system was quite loud. The engineer said, "watch this" He put a 1' long piece of 4" pipe on the burner inlet and it quieted the system right down. That was a long time ago and the current burner may not require it, but it is worth a look.

Also...

@ December 9, 2012 8:37 PM in labor hrs

Are there any post install reviews with the owner, sales and installing crews? Seems that would help as well. Or, of course, it can just be left like it is and everyone will hate each other...with predictable results! Good luck on this! Please keep us posted!

One of the reasons

@ December 9, 2012 8:34 PM in labor hrs

I no longer work with the tools is that I'd look at a job and say I can do that in 4 hrs. Simple! 8 hrs later I'm bangin my head of the pipes wondering what I was still doing there. I guess I was just ADD before it became fashionable. I have great respect for who can walk in and knock out a good job. Great respect!

I like the idea of getting him on a couple jobs. It will be good for him to do so and will improve his feel for the tool side of the business. I would also suggest that his desire to allow "anyone to quote a price" is fine if he has trained people eyeballing the quotes. Get the sales staff on a couple jobs as well. The owner has to invest in a couple "slow" jobs to do that but it will improve relations and I think profitability.

Insulated liner

@ December 5, 2012 12:06 PM in Condensate from chimmney

And insulated vent connector are always good on a re-line. At 85% you would expect some condensate on start-up, but the condensate should dry up as the system operates. Opening the damper is altering the dew-point temp in the stack and allowing the flue gases to stay as flue gases rather than falling below the dew point temp into water. Insulating the pipe from the boiler to the chimney cap should have the same affect by preserving the temp within the stack to keep it warm enough to vent.

The condensate you are getting probably has a Ph of about 3.2. Limestone is one of the common products used to neutralize that Ph. Think mortar mix for your brick chimney and your concrete basement floor. Over time the condensate can "eat" your chimney. Won't happen today or tomorrow, but drip, drip, drip...a slow but insidious process. Insulate, as should have been done initially.

I sent

@ December 2, 2012 10:51 AM in Rinnai Heater parts....

you the pages on the 1001 FA/VA. I don't have them electronically, so photographed them and sent that way. Let me know if there are any issues. After 15 yrs there may be some parts that are going nla, but I bet N&S have them in Portland.

that is the old two stage unit. It will fire at 50% of capacity and go from there. There are three flame rods, one for each burner. The front center FR is for low fire. As you know any one of the flame rods can knock it out. How is it behaving? Will it fire and go off or not fire at all.

I have a 1001 that I've run since '93. At first it was in the house, then heated the basement and then the garage. I brought it with me from MA when I moved last year. It is now running at my daughters house out here.

I would suggest at this point that when you are there, give a close look at the house blower wheels. I bet they need a good cleaning.

You have my number. Call if I can help.

Try

@ December 1, 2012 7:41 PM in Rinnai Heater parts....

Rinnai at 800 621-9419. They have them. Drop me your email address and I will send you the troubleshooting pages on this model heater. That unit has not been manuf since '96. It is the two stage model (12,000and 36,500 on LP) Where are you located? Who said it was the slide potentiometer?

Well, Jeez, Alan

@ November 30, 2012 2:02 PM in Teflon tape, applied correctly.

He had some left over at the end of the job. You can just see the process. "Now, where can I put this?"